Committee on Finance. - Vote 30—Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed). – Dáil Éireann (17th Dáil) – Thursday, 12 Dec 1963

Committee on Finance. - Vote 30—Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

"That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration."

—(Deputy P. O'Donnell).

Seán Ó Ceallaigh

Nuair a cuireadh an Dáil ar ath-ló aréir, bhí mé ag cur síos ar an laghdú ar líon na scoláire ins na bun-scoileanna i láthair na huaire. Dubhairt mé go raibh cúis amháin leis sin, an méadú mór atá ar líon na scoláire atá ag freastal ar na meán-scoileanna agus ar na ceard-scoileanna.

Is breágh liom a fheiscint gur tugadh méadú breis agus míle scoláireacht dó siúd a bhíonn ar intinn dul isteach ins na meánscoileanna. Dubhairt an Teachta Ó Domhnaill go mba cheart na scoláireachtaí sin do roinnt de réir uimhir na múinteoirí ins na bun-scoileanna, cuir i gcás, roinnt scoláireachtaí do chur ar fáil do na scoileanna ina bhfuil múinteoir nó beirt; roinnt eile dóibh siúd in a bhfuil triúr múinteoirí agus an fuílleach do na scoileanna móra. Dubhairt sé go raibh scéim mar sin acu i nDún na nGall. Tá an scéim chéanna dhá h-oibriú fé Chomhairle Contae an Chláir agus chomh fada agus is eol domhsa in áiteacha eile chomh maith.

Do mhol an Teachta Ó Domhnaill don Aire breis tuarastal do thabhairt do na múinteoirí atá ag múineadh ins na hoileáin mor-thimpeall chósta na hÉireann. Dubhairt an tAire go raibh £60 breise in aghaidh na bliana le fáil acu cheana féin. Dubhairt an Teachta nár leor £60, go mba cheart dhá incriméid bhreise do thabhairt dóibh. Chomh fada agus is eol domhsa is ionann incriméad agus £19 in aghaidh na bliana. Dá nglacadh an tAire comhairle an Teachta do chaillfeadh na múinteoirí bochta sin £22 in aghaidh na bliana. B'fhéidir, ámh, gurb é rud a bhí i gceist aige ná 2/60 nó £150 breise in aghaidh na bliana a thabhairt dóibh. Más ní é go raibh sin i gceist aige bhéinn ar aon aigne leis.

Dob íonad leis an Teachta Tadhg Ó Loingsigh gur cuireadh scoil ar bun i gCill Ronáin ar Oilean Árainn, d'fhonn ceárd na hiascaireachta do mhúineadh do dhaoine óga. Shíl sé go mba cheart a leithéid do chur ar bun ar chósta Phortláirge. Rinne sé tagairt do na bilí móra iasc a thaithíonn an cósta sin agus go raibh iascairí ag teacht ó gach críoch san Eoraip fiú amháin, mar adubhairt sé féin "from behind the Iron Curtain". Ní dóigh liom gur cáll don Roinn Oideachais iarracht a dhéanamh ar theagasc ar a gcuid oibre a thabhairt do na hiascairí bradacha a thigeas chun creach do thógaint ar chósta Phortláirge agus táim cinnte ná glacfadh na daoine atá taobh thiar den Cuirtín Iarainn teagasc ó Ghael ar bith.

Cad é an locht atáaige sin nó ag éinne eile sa Teach seo ar Oileán Árainn? Bhí scoil, léinn agus creideamh san Oileán sin sul ar leag Sasanach cos ar thalamh na hÉireann riamh. Bíonn gach tosnú lag agus, dar ndó, níl áit is oiriúnaí le tosnú a dhéanamh ar theagasc den tsaghas sin ná ar oileán in Iarthar na hÉireann.

Iarraim ar na Teachtaí ar gach taobh den Teach seo éirí as an gcáineadh agus an imdheargadh a thugann siad do Ghaeilge oifigiúil agus do Ghaeilge éigeantach. Cuimhnidís ar chuspóirí an Phiarsaigh, an Dáibhisigh agus na laochraí eile go gcoimhéadtar a gcuimhne tré leachtanna sa Teach seo. Gach aon uair a leagfaidh siad rosc ar cheann de na leachtanna sin cuimhnidis gur fhuiling daoine crólínte an bháis chun an Parlaimint seo do chur ar bun. Ná ceapadh éinne gurab é a bhí uathu ná Teach eile nó macsamhail de Pharlaimint Shasana do bheith anso againn. Iarraim go muiníneach orthu focal molta do thabhairt do gach neach atá ag iarraidh ár dteanga uasal ad'aithbheochain agus maran rún leo an focal molta do thabhairt iarraim orthu fanúint ina dtost.

Do thug mérosc dóibh sa Teach seo anuraidh agus b'fhéidir nár mhiste dhom é do thabhairt dóibh arís. Seo é:

Feasta ní foláir gurab é Éire na nGaedheal

Meirg gach Éireannach sa tír

Feasta ní foláir dúinn freagairt go soiléir cé acu taobh dínn an le hÉirinn nó le Seán Buí

Feasta ná bactar le Tadhg an Dá Thaobh

Scuabtar an scraiste as ár slí

Mar an té ná beidh linn ní dual gur dínn é

Pé acu Gaedheal nó Gall-Ghaedheal nó coigríoch.

Thairg an Teachta giota eile páipéir chuige agus léigh sé sliocht as leabhar gorm na mBreathnach. Seo é an sliocht: "A language cannot be imposed on a people. It must be embraced voluntarily."

Ní h-éidir go bhfuil dearmad déanta aige ar an gcaoi a dingeadh isteach an Béarla i gcluasa leanaí beaga óga na hÉireann nuair do cuireadh an córas oideachais ar bun sa tír ar a dtugadh an córas oideachais "náisiúnta". Do cosgadh ar na leanaí óga ná raibh oiread agus focal Béarla acu focal Gaeilge do labhairt. Do cuireadh gaibín le téad faoi mhuinéal gach duine acu agus gach aon uair a chloistí focal Gaeilge uathu dheineadh an múinteoir scian a tharraingt as a phóca agus do cuireadh sé scór faoin gaibín. Deintí an rud céanna ag baile agus gheibheadh gach leanbh cúpla leidhb den tslait thar cheann gach scóir a bhí faoin ghaibín.

Is mar sin a cuireadh Béarla éigeantach i bhfeidhm ar na leanaí agus d'fhonn é a dhéanamh go críochnúil cuireadh rann ar an gcéad leathnach de gach téacsleabhar a bhí sna scoileanna náisiúnta nó faoin "murder machine" mar a thug an Piarsach air. Do thug mé an rann sin díobh breis agus trí bliana ó shoin. Ní h-aon díobháil é do thabhairt díobh athuair. Seo é:

I thank the goodness and the grace that on my youth had smiled

To make me in my early days a happy English child.

Ná déarfadh éinne nach raibh fios a ngnóthaí ag na Sasanaigh.

Mr. D. Costello

There is a great deal of complacency about social conditions in this country and that applies to the problem of education. We conveniently forget that less than one-quarter of our children between the ages of 12 and 18 go to secondary school. We conveniently forget that just about one-third of our children between the ages of 12 and 18 get secondary and vocational education.

The fact is that post-primary education in this country is totally and deplorably inadequate and the steps taken to improve it have been stumbling and inadequate. We now find ourselves, 40 years after becoming a free State, in a condition where our educational system is largely based on class considerations. It is true today that the educational opportunities for our children are largely reserved for the children of parents who are able to pay for them. That is a situation of which we should not be proud. It is a situation calling for urgent and immediate reform.

Until we have a system of education open to all, irrespective of means, we cannot say we have proper social justice. We are not doing enough to provide education for our children. The steps we have taken have been mild palliatives when urgent reform is needed. We are told from time to time when these matters are discussed in the Dáil that there have been increases here and there in the number of scholarships given. These figures are mere palliatives to ease the conscience of persons who should be more concerned with the situation in which we find ourselves. It is desirable, of course, that scholarships should be increased, and vastly increased, but we still have only one-quarter of our children going to secondary schools and only one-third going to secondary and vocational schools. It is quite obvious that the assistance which the State gives to education will have to be vastly increased.

It is worth while looking at the way in which the Northern Ireland Government treat their educational problem. Figures for 1960-61 show that in this country public expenditure on all scholarships, secondary and university, amounted to £171,000. In Northern Ireland, the figure was over £2,100,000. Perhaps we have improved, relatively speaking, since 1961. However, the figures show that the public authorities in Northern Ireland are spending many times more money on scholarships and on education generally than this country, even in absolute figures which show that, per capita, the Northern Ireland authorities are spending much more than we are.

The average public expenditure for full-time university students in Northern Ireland was £272.2 per university student; here, it was £91. It is obvious that the amount of financial assistance we are giving in this country not only to primary but to post-primary education is entirely inadequate. It is correct that there has been an increase in recent years in the enrolment of pupils at secondary schools. This increase is to be welcomed but it is entirely inadequate and the steps taken by the State to assist the growth in post-primary education are also inadequate.

One matter which could dramatically change the whole pattern of our post-primary education is the giving of grants for the building and improvement of secondary schools. There seems to be an objection in principle to the giving of grants for the building of secondary schools. Frankly, I do not understand the objection. It is not put forward on financial grounds. It has not been suggested that the country could not afford to give grants towards the building of secondary schools. The grounds put forward have been quoted in an article by Mr. McElligott, an experienced and thoughtful writer on educational problems, in the Irish Times of 4th March, 1963, in which he quoted the Secretary of the Department as saying:

Unlike national and vocational schools, secondary schools are entirely independent private institutions, many of which were flourishing long before the State took cognisance of them and all of which have the right to sever at any moment their connection with the State. This right of severance, which the State could not permit in the case of national and vocational schools, for there it has shared directly in the cost of erection, is at once a cause and a result of there being no State grants towards the building of secondary schools.

There seems to be a principle enshrined in these statements that for one reason or another the provision of grants for the building of secondary schools would impinge on the independence of the schools concerned. I do not understand and I do not accept that argument. Are the universities in any way affected by the fact that they take State grants? Are the national schools less independent because they obtain State grants towards building and repair costs? We have here a system of denominational education. It is not going to interfere with that system or with the independence of the secondary schools if grants are provided towards their building. I should be glad to know whether this principle is still operating in the minds of the Minister and the Government and whether it is proposed to discontinue the application of this principle. If we are serious about the development of our secondary schools and the development of secondary education, the State must give increased grants towards the building and repair of the secondary schools.

Like many of these principles that seem to become sacred cows, in the course of time inroads have been made on this one. Already we give grants towards the building of secondary schools in the Gaeltacht areas. Why not in the city of Dublin? Why not in other parts of the country where they are so badly needed? Why does this principle not apply in Donegal and why does it apply in Dublin? It seems to me that we are failing in our duties and responsibilities if this matter is not discussed and if we do not reach a proper conclusion as to the manner in which the State is to best help secondary education.

The Minister has said that he would be glad if there was further development in post-primary education. It is one thing to use pious words and another thing to put them into effect. It would be a comparatively simple matter dramatically to improve our post-primary education if this principle were put aside and if we accepted the real obligation of the State to provide grants towards the building and repair of secondary schools. What I have been saying is not to be taken as seeking to interfere with the independence of the secondary schools or in any way to criticise the work, the heroic work, being done by the religious organisations. I should be very surprised if there was not a large degree of agreement with the view that the burden placed on the religious societies in the building and repairing of secondary schools has now become too great and if the need to assist them in this work is not generally accepted.

There is obviously a need also to improve the facilities in our primary schools. Here again there is a tremendous amount of complacency about the position at the present time. I was talking recently to a social worker who had to visit schools throughout the country and who did visit a great number of them. Her reports, which must be available to the Minister, indicate the appalling conditions in a great number of our schools. In some of them, there is no electric light; in some of them there are rats running around which this social worker saw. In some, the children are sitting on the floor because there are not enough rooms for them and in a great many of them the classes are vastly too large and the teachers are required to carry a burden which is not fair to them and not fair to the children. One of the social revolutions we have to bring about in this country is a revolution in our educational system. Until we face up to this matter, we cannot say that we have a proper system of social justice here.

On this Estimate in previous years, I have raised a problem concerning education in which, I am glad to say, there has been an increasing amount of interest in recent years, that is, the problem of our mentally handicapped children. The amount of State assistance given towards dealing with this problem is pitiably inadequate. There are a number of voluntary organisations who have established day centres in the city for these children and who are now trying to establish residential centres for them. I should like to say that these organisations have got nothing but the utmost co-operation and assistance from the Minister and his Department but it seems to me that we must go a deal further.

The extraordinary fact has been established in the past few years that the establishment of day centres is not a very expensive matter. It can be done at a comparatively small cost. The amount of good that can be done, and the return for a comparatively small amount of money is out of all proportion to the money that has to be put into it. A few thousand pounds a year will finance a day centre in this city. The problem is different in country areas because of the dispersed population and the difficulties of transport. The answer seems to be that there should be in rural areas five-day residential centres for the children who would be able to return to their parents for the weekend. This involves the necessity of providing transport because, just as in the city areas, transport is vitally necessary for the proper working of these centres.

I should like to make this suggestion to the Minister. There is a Commission sitting at the moment composed of men of great experience and knowledge in this field, but the fact that this Commission is sitting to deal with the problem should not be used as an excuse for doing nothing. Undoubtedly the results of this Commission and its report will have an important bearing on the future pattern in the care and treatment of the mentally handicapped, but in the meantime, it would be of considerable assistance if the Minister adopted this simple expedient. The voluntary organisations that have been established and have started day centres or residential five-day centres, have all had lengthy negotiations with the local authorities, the Department of Health, the Health Authority and the Department of Education and, as I said, as far as I am aware in all instances, a great deal of co-operation and understanding has been forthcoming. A great deal of time, however, is wasted in negotiations and discussions and in inter-Departmental talks and all the time the shadow of the Department of Finance is hanging over the discussions and literally it is years before a decision can be taken whether an association will get £1 or £1 2s. 6d. a week per child per bus.

It would be a simple matter if this could be rationalised. It could be done in a month. If the Minister made a statement and said: "Here I have available the following moneys for voluntary organisations which start day centres or residential centres. The health authority will give them so much per week per child and we will pay the salaries of national teachers and so much for the cost of transport and so much for school meals." It would be a simple matter to draw up a short memorandum indicating what help is available to the voluntary organisations.

I am speaking now from experience because at this very moment voluntary organisations are starting in Tipperary, Donegal and Wexford, all of whom want to know what assistance they can get and all of whom have local authorities, a health authority and the Department to deal with. It would be a simple matter for the Minister to inform them: "This is our policy; this is the help we will give you." That of course will only be a stopgap measure. But we are dealing with the lives of children and their future and if you allow two or three years to pass without doing anything, that will be two or three years lost, perhaps irrevocably lost for children suffering from mental handicap who could, as experience has shown, benefit greatly if assistance were available.

This of course is a national problem and has to be tackled on a national level. It is only in comparatively recent years that we have taken any steps to deal with the problem of our mentally handicapped children. Now of course it is becoming obvious that if you do provide special day centres and special residential schools for mentally-handicapped children, as soon as they leave school, you immediately have a new problem on your hands. The answer is not to put these children, as does happen, into the public wards of our mental hospitals where within a few months they can disimprove and irrevocably lose the benefit of years of schooling. The answer is now generally regarded as lying in the provision of sheltered workshops where many of these children, after getting the benefit of disciplined teaching and so on, can lead useful lives and develop their lives to the fullest extent to which they can develop. They are also able to become useful members of the community. It is a sad and a tragic thing to see the training these children have received being wasted within a couple of months because there is no suitable employment for them.

We are in the infancy of development in this field. We are only now starting to deal with the provision of adequate assistance for our mentally handicapped but it must be realised that this is a different problem from mental illness. The mentally handicapped person is a different type of case from the mentally ill person. As I said, this must be treated on a national scale. I should like to envisage a national service for the mentally handicapped child by which he or she will, from the early years, be adequately assessed and have adequate facilities in day centres or residential schools, and then have the benefit of assessment through the school years, adequate advice for the parents and a sheltered workshop in which the child can lead a useful and full life.

That is not a chimera, something that is unobtainable. It is an ordinary fact that must be emphasised over and over again that dealing with moderately handicapped children the expense is not very great. The numbers of the moderately handicapped would not create such a vast financial burden on the State that we could not carry it. There is of course a different problem between the moderately handicapped and the mildly handicapped. So far we have done little or nothing for the mildly handicapped. Teachers and school managers, social workers and anyone with any knowledge of education, are all familiar with the problem of the two or three dull, backward children in every class, with whom the teachers can do nothing because of their responsibility to the other children, who are left at the back of the class to while away the years without getting any proper training and who very frequently suffer from serious psychological strain as a result of the inferior position in which they find themselves. We will have to try to set up special classes in our school system so that the mildly handicapped can get proper help and assistance from qualified teachers.

I want also to refer to a matter which is discussed every year on this Estimate, namely, the problem of the Irish language. In discussing this, it must be clear what we are discussing. We are not discussing the merits of the revival of the Irish language; we are discussing the methods for reviving the Irish language. It seems to me to be an intellectual weakness on the part of those who oppose us when we say that the methods have failed, to try to attack us by saying we are opposed to the Irish language and by saying we are Sassanach, that we are in fact anti-Irish. That is an emotional reaction, an intellectual weakness. The debate should take place on this level: have the methods in our schools to revive the Irish language been successful? It is my view that there is only one answer to that question, that is, that they have not, that it is patently obvious the methods which have been used to attempt to revive the Irish language have failed.

If the supporters of the present methods put forward arguments on this level, an interesting, useful and fruitful debate could be held. The unfortunate thing is that the debate does not take place on that level. It is immediately shifted to a debate on an emotional level. What we want to discuss here is whether we think the methods being used for the past 40 years in our schools have been successful. I say categorically they have not, and I want to change them, to improve them. The fact is very frequently forgotten that our present method of reviving the Irish language is, in fact, again a piece of class legislation because it is the poor children who are affected adversely by it — the poor children who go to school up to the age of 14, who do not get the benefit of secondary education, who have, for so much of their schooling hours, to learn a language and be taught a language which they never use again and which their parents, in many instances, do not wish them to learn. It is the poor children who are affected by the present system.

It is all right for the person with means who can send his child to a secondary school and then, perhaps, on to university, because he will learn the Irish language but he will also learn a great deal more; he will have the benefit of secondary education up to the age of 18 and, perhaps, university education after that. The young child, however, who leaves school at 14, will have spent a great deal of his time, valuable time to him when he should be learning and trying to get the benefit of the knowledge passed on to him by his teachers, learning the Irish language, which he will not use subsequently. It is this method we must change.

I believe that there is a problem of social justice involved in our present methods. I believe that we are failing in social justice adequately to look after our children by imposing on them the present system in our national schools. There is in all this a basic conflict which we have not faced up to; there is a basic conflict between the need for giving the best education to our children, on the one hand, and reviving the Irish language by the present methods, on the other. If we retain the present methods, then we are not giving our children the best education. If we want to give them the best education we can, then we will change these methods.

I have no doubt in my own mind where our duty lies. I have no doubt that it is our duty as a sovereign legislature to see that our children get the best possible education and that we are not deflected from that by emotional considerations. Of course, teach our children the Irish language, but teach them to love it, teach them to respect it; do not force it on them so that it becomes a drudgery, so that their parents hate it, because that is what is happening in a great many instances.

I know the sort of reaction there will be to these remarks. It will be said that I am unpatriotic, that the Irish people love the Irish language. You cannot argue on an emotional plane. You can make these statements, but there is no dialectic, there is no argument. All I am saying is what I believe to be demonstrably true. We have not devised a proper method of reviving the Irish language —if we had, we should all be speaking it now—and, because of the present methods we are using, a great number of our children are suffering, and they are not being taught to love their national language.

I should like a great deal more discussion on our educational problems. A great deal of work is being done to try to improve our educational facilities and to try to educate public opinion on the need for improving them. Such organisations as the Federation of Secondary Schools, who have not been treated with a light hand by the Minister and his Department, are, I think, just the type of organisations which should receive our support and our thanks. There are a number of people who write regularly and speak regularly on these problems. There are teachers' organisations which are forever pointing out the necessity for reform. All these efforts will, it is hoped, bear fruit in time. Until we get this sense of urgency, until we come to realise in this House, and in the political Parties which constitute this House, that there is need for a social revolution, until we reach that stage we will, I believe, be merely tinkering with the problem. It is time we stopped tinkering and brought about true conditions of social justice here.

Mr. Faulkner

Is mian liom comhgháirdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Aire as ucht an phlean nua atá curtha ar fáil aige do oideachas sa tír seo. Déanfaidh mé tagairt do seo arís ar ball.

Is mian liom, fosta, comhgháirdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Aire as ucht an mhéid atá á dhéanamh aige ar son páistí lagintinneacha. Tá árdú airgid ins an Meastachán seo le h-oiliúint speisialta a thabhairt do mhúinteoirí i dtreo is go mbeidh siad ábalta an aicíd a aithint ina scoileanna féin agus go mbeidh siad ábalta, fosta, cuidiú a thabhairt do na páistí seo. Ar feadh blianta fada níor cuireadh mórán suime i bpáistí den tsórt seo agus ba mhór an crá croí é do thuismitheoirí a bheith ag amharc orthu agus gan ar a gcumas rud ar bith a dhéanamh dóibh. Tá athrú meoin ag teacht ar an bpobal anois faoin aicíd seo. Tuigeann an pobal gur ceart cabhrú leis na páistí seo, gur ceart pé oideachas is féidir a thabhairt dóibh. Tá dualgas orainn sa Teach seo an dearcadh úr seo a neartú i dtreo is go dtuigfidh gach duine sa tír caidé atá i gceist agus go dtiocfaidh fonn níos mó orthu lámh chuidithe a thabhairt san obair.

Labhair mé cheana sa Dáil faoin méid oibre atá á dhéanamh sa Dáilcheantair 's agamsa ar son na bpáistí seo. Tá ospidéal i nDrom Carad fé stiúiriú Bráthar Eoin le Dia agus is mór ar fad an obair atá á déanamh acu siúd. Tá scoileanna i nDúndealgan agus i nDroichead Átha do na páistí seo amháin agus támuid buíoch don Aire siocar is go bhfuil sé ag díol as na múinteoirí ins na scoileanna seo agus gur chuir sé airgead ar fáil leis na páistí atá ina gcónaí i bhfad ón scoil a thabhairt go dtí an scoil gach lá. Tá Coimisiún ina shuí fé láthair ag scrúdú na ceiste seo agus tá súil agam go dtiocfaidh toradh as a rachaidh chun tairbhe na bpáistí seo, ach is maith liom a rá anois, agus tá sé le tuiscint ón méid atá ráite agam, nach bhfuil sé fíor le rá nach bhfuil a dhath á dhéanamh fé láthair do na páistí seo ná go bhfuil an Rialtas ag fanacht le toradh an Choimisiúin le cabhair a thabhairt dóibh.

Tá mé den bharúil go mba cheart oiliúint ar leith a bheith ag na dochtúirí a théann thart ar na scoileanna náisiúnta i dtreo is go mbeidh siad ábalta an aicíd seo d'aithint. De réir na saineolaithe ní féidir leis na páistí seo mórán a fhoghlaim má bhíonn siad sa rang céanna le páistí a bhfuil eagna chinn níos fearr acu, agus tá sé seo le chéill, ach go dtí seo ba bheag a thiocfadh le múinteoir a dhéanamh do pháiste mar é fiú dá n-aithneofaí go raibh an aicíd seo air. Ach anois tá sé práinneach go n-aithneofaí iad, mar, mar adúirt mé cheana, tá scoileanna ar leith ann dóibh i nDúndealgan agus i nDroichead Átha.

Is mian liom fosta buíochas a ghabháil leis na coistí i nDroichead Átha agus i nDúndealgan as ucht an méid oibre atá á dhéanamh acu, saor in aisce, ar son na bpáistí seo. Tá siad ag bailiú airgid leo le scoileanna úra a thógáil agus i láthair na h-uaire tá go leor airgid bailithe ag an choiste i nDúndealgan leis an scoil úr a thógáil.

Ba mhór an ní é an deontas a chuir an tAire ar fáil le scoileanna a pheinteáil. Ba chuidiú mór é, go mór mór do na scoileanna nua agus tá a fhios againn gur fada an saol a bheidh acu dá bhárr. Rinneadh cuid mhaith scoileanna sa cheantar 's agamsa ar na mallaibh agus tá cuma fíor-mhaith orthu anois.

Ba mhaith liom a iarraidh ar an Aire ardú a thabhairt ins na deontaisí maidir le téamh agus glanadh na scol. Tá a fhios aige go ndeachaidh costas na h-oibre seo in airde go mór leis na blianta ach go bhfuil na deontaisí céanna ann leis na blianta.

Feicim go bhfuil níos mó airgid curtha ar fáil ag an Aire do na h-irisí agus do na páipéirí Gaeilge. Is maith liom sin a fheiceál. Is beatha teangain í labhairt ach is buanú teangan í a léamh agus a scríobhadh? Ag an am céanna, tá gearán agam faoina deontaisí seo. Tá mé go láidir den bharúil go mba ceart i bhfad níos mó airgid a thabhairt do "An tUltach". Níl chothrom na féinne á fáil aici. Go dtí i mbliana ní raibh ach ocht bpunta dhéag an eagrán á fháil. Anois tá a dhá oiread sin agus gidh go bhfuil mé buíoch don Aire as ucht an méid a thug sé tá mé go fóill den bharúil go mba ceart i bhfad níos mó a thabhairt.

Tá cás ar leith ag "An tUltach". Clóbhuailtear í i mBéal Feirste. Scaiptear í ar fud cúige Uladh ar fad agus taobh amuigh de chomh maith, ach go mór mór, ins na Sé Condaethe. Sí an t-aon iris Ghaeilge amháin atá ag muintir na Sé gCondaethe agus is mór an obair atá á déanamh acu ag coimhéad an Gaeilge beo ansin. Scaiptear ar na scoileanna ansin í, fosta. Is iris Comhaltais Uladh í agus tá a fhios ag achan duine an méid atá á dhéanamh ag Comhaltas Uladh ar son cúis na Gaeilge. Tá cuma agus crut fíor-mhaith uirthi.

Is féidir liom a rá go bhfuil díolachán níos fearr ar an pháipéar sin ná ar pháipéar Gaeilge ar bith eile in Éirinn, taobh amuigh de cheann amháin. Sílim gurb é an fáth nár tugadh deontas níos fearr don pháipéar seo i dtús ama nó cionnus go raibh an t-ainm "An tUltach" air agus gur ceapadh gur páipéar áitiúil agus nach páipéar náisiúnta a bhí ann. Iarraim ar an Aire aithsmaoineadh a dhéanamh ar an cheist seo agus sílim go n-aithneoidh sé go bhfuil cás ar leith ag an pháipéar seo.

Is mian liom cúpla focal a rá fá pháipéar Gaeilge eile, "Amárach", páipéar atá curtha ar fáil do mhuintir na Gaeltachta. Tá suim mhór ag achan duine fán tuaith i nuacht áitiúil. Ní féidir leis an chuid is mó de mhuintir na Gaeltachta an nuacht áitiúil seo a fháil ach amháin sna páipéirí Béarla. Má támuid dáiríre fá aithbheochaint na Gaeilge caithfimid an nuacht seo a chur ar fáil do mhuintir na Gaeltachta i nGaeilge. Tá an páipéar "Amárach" ag déanamh a dhícheall sin a dhéanamh, ach cionnus nach bhfuil go leor airgid ag an choiste ní féidir leo go leor iriseoirí a dhíol leis an nuacht seo a fháil dóibh. Sílim go mba cheart go dtabharfadh an tAire níos mó airgid leis an aidhm seo a chur i gcrích.

Táaithne agam ar an eagarthóir atá i mbun an pháipéir seo, agus cé nach n-aontaíom le achan rud atá le rá aige déarfainn seo fá dtaobh dó, gur sár-oibrí é ar son na Gaeilge, agus gur chuir sé íontas orm go minic caidé mar bhí fear amháin ábalta an méid a rinne sé a dhéanamh.

Tá áthas orm go bhfuil athrú tagtha ar an dóigh in a bhfuil an clár staire do na bunscoileanna athraithe. Go dtí seo bhí sé íontach doiligh an dara cuid den stair a dhéanamh taobh istigh de bhliain amháin agus ar an dóigh sin is minic nach ndearnadh an chuid sin den stair is giorra don aois ina bhfuilmuid inár gcónaí ann, agus sílim gur tábhachtach an rud é go mbeadh stair ár linne féin go maith ag an aos óg.

While I am on the question of history, it is only right I should mention that there are certain elements in this House who are constantly decrying the teaching of history because of what they describe as the overemphasis placed on certain aspects of it. They claim that the method of teaching is prejudiced and that we are attempting to stir up anti-British feeling. This, of course, is arrant nonsense. I know of no anti-British feeling which these people pretend is being stirred up by our teaching of history.

However, there is a very serious aspect to this matter, that is, that the people in this House to whom I am referring would have us suppress facts of history because they are not palatable to the people of Britain, or perhaps, I should say, to the ruling classes in Britain. History in our schools is presented as a series of facts. If there is a slight inclination to over-emphasise the nobility of our people and their great deeds and to play down their shortcomings, this is something common to all peoples. I have no doubt that, in the teaching of history in English schools, very much greater stress is placed on the Battle of Trafalgar and the Battle of Waterloo than on the Irish Famine and the Black Hole of Calcutta. Our history has been a troubled history. We have had to bear persecution, torture and death for both religious and political reasons. This history has gone to mould and shape the character of our people and to make them the distinctive people they are. I believe Irish children are entitled to have a knowledge of the factors which went to make them different from other peoples.

The critics to whom I refer would, I think, learn something if they were to study that very excellent book which was written recently by Mrs. Woodham Smith, "The Great Hunger". In that book the miseries and suffering of our people are very clearly depicted. The iniquities of the British Government in relation to the Famine are clearly shown, and responsibility is placed definitely on their shoulders. Is it suggested that Mrs. Woodham Smith wrote this book for the purpose of stirring up anti-British feeling, or that our people should be requested not to read this book because it might make people here dislike Britain?

The Irish people are an intelligent people. So far as I know, there is no hatred here, or even dislike, of the people of Great Britain. In fact, the contrary is true. But there is a very definite sense of grievance among our people in relation to the partition of our country, the part the British Government played in it and the responsibility they must accept for it. If that is what is really annoying this particular element in this House—and I have no doubt it is—then I am afraid they are going to be annoyed for a long time in the future until these wrongs have been righted. It is only right I should refer to this matter because it has been brought up here by a particular element, who always make sure to preface their remarks by saying they will be attacked as shoneens and West Britons. I am not attacking them either as shoneens or West Britons. I am simply stating facts.

Developments all over the world in the educational field have naturally had their impact here. The recognition by our people of the need for more educational facilities is reflected in the very large increase in the numbers availing of secondary and vocational education over the past few years. The Minister has taken steps to implement a new programme in education, and I feel it is a very worthwhile step indeed.

Before going on to deal with these proposals, would it be too much to ask those people always so anxious to belittle our educational system, and to compare us to our detriment with other countries, to take note of the comparative figures issued by the Minister in his Press statement some time ago when he first mentioned this new plan? To our people, who have been subjected to this type of propaganda with regard to our so-called backwardness in the educational field, it comes as a pleasant surprise to find that 60 per cent of our children between the ages of 14 and 15 are in full-time attendance at recognised post-primary schools. This is a higher percentage than in practically any other country in Europe, apart from Britain. The reason why the British percentage is higher is probably the fact that it is compulsory there to remain at school until the age of 15. Further, 45 per cent of our children between the ages of 15 and 16 are attending full-time educational courses, and this is an advance even on our neighbours.

While we take note of these figures with a certain amount of pleasure, we are by no means satisfied. The Minister has shown he is not satisfied. He has set the country on a pattern of further educational development, for which he has the full support of this Party. He has done a considerable amount in regard to scholarships. I was very interested to hear Deputy D. Costello suggest that not sufficient money is being spent on education here and that far more scholarships should be available. He compared the amount made available in this country for scholarships with the amount made available in the Six Counties and Britain. We fully agree that not sufficient money is being made available for scholarships, and we are doing our utmost to see to it that more is provided. But when we put on the necessary taxes to provide these scholarships, Deputy D. Costello will be one of the first to pass through the Lobbies in opposition to the tax proposals, which must be carried if we are to have further expansion of our scholarship schemes. It is, of course, the usual procedure of the Opposition Parties to oppose all taxation, but to suggest that more and more money be spent on every aspect of our economic life. It is nothing new to find them suggesting we are not spending nearly enough money on education, but, as I said, it is quite a different matter altogether when they are asked to vote the necessary moneys to provide the extra scholarships.

It is clear that the idea behind the comprehensive schools was necessary. I had always hoped that post-primary education could have been based on the existing national schools in the areas the Minister has in mind. I recognise, however, the difficulty of providing the necessary variety of subjects to a very limited number of pupils. I fully endorse the Minister's view that the eleven-plus examination is now discredited. I believe he has reached a sensible conclusion in relation to the time when the child's aptitude for a particular type of education should be manifest, that is, at the Intermediate Certificate examination stage.

I should like to know from the Minister where the primary schools and primary teachers fit into this plan.

It was held by a considerable body of educational opinion that one of the main flaws in the eleven-plus system was that it removed the child from the primary school at too young an age. Is it envisaged that the primary teacher will take part in the teaching in these schools? Has the Minister taken into consideration what effect these new comprehensive schools will have on the numbers on the rolls in the primary schools in the sparsely populated areas? This problem of the numbers on the rolls is agitating the minds of people not only in the sparsely populated areas but in the more thickly populated areas where there is very rapid development of industry. Because of the fact that people tend to try to get houses near to where the industry is situated there is a move towards the towns and villages, and this results in the population in the rural areas falling. For that reason, the same problem more or less is experienced in areas where normally you would not expect to find them. This can have an effect, as the Minister knows, on the retention of teachers.

I feel that the change envisaged in the Intermediate Certificate is good. Do I take it that when it is introduced, it will have general application, and does this mean the secondary and vocational schools will in future have the same programme as is envisaged for the comprehensive schools—will we have the same type of Intermediate Certificate in both types of school, and arising from that, will we have eventually some manual instruction as well as academic subjects in secondary schools? It is one of the problems which appear to me to arise here.

The Minister mentioned the fact that at Intermediate Certificate stage, the teachers or parents of a child may decide he would be better in a secondary school or in a vocational school, as the case may be. If that child happens to be in a secondary school and his teachers or parents decide that the education afforded in a technical school would be much more advantageous for him, the problem is how will he change from the secondary school to the vocational school? In my constituency, the vocational schools are packed out, and how a child will be able to make the change at that stage is a problem the Minister will have to consider.

As a result of tests by experts at the Intermediate stage, the child will be guided on the path he should follow. This is, to a certain extent, career guidance, something for which we have been clamouring for many years, and I should like to congratulate the Minister on bringing it into being. The Minister mentioned that some children would be better off in secondary schools than in technical schools, and vice versa, and this is, of course, very true. I think this is more applicable to those in secondary schools because there was a certain snob value over the years attached to attendance at a secondary school and many children who were incapable of deriving any advantage from the facilities afforded in these schools had their whole lives ruined because they were more or less forced to go to these schools and later found themselves in blind alley employment. This outlook, I am glad to say, is changing rapidly and it is a very good thing.

I am also glad to note that the Minister made particular mention of specialisation and stressed the need for a rounded education. I submit that great care must be taken on this question of specialisation. We know it is necessary, but specialisation has resulted in even university graduates leaving colleges without an education in the proper sense of the word: they are sometimes not equipped educationally to take a balanced view because specialisation has been attempted too early and they did not have the opportunity of being given a fully rounded education.

The idea of a technical school leaving certificate is, of course, an excellent one, and the establishment of technological colleges is extremely important, particularly where industry is developing, as it is now in most parts of the country. It is of very particular importance in a constituency such as mine. When industrialists come to my constituency — many of them have come in the past few years—one of the first questions they ask is whether technical instruction is available and whether it is possible to have special training for their employees if they decide to set up an industry. That is one of the main reasons why industrialists coming here select one area rather than another.

Two very important events occurred during the year in relation to the Irish language revival. One of them was the appointment of An tAthair Colm Ó hUallacháin to advise on language teaching techniques, and the other was the Glór na nGael competition under Cumann na Sagart. The appointment of An tAthair Ó hUallacháin is an important step because through his efforts and his study, we hope to be able to make the latest scientific advantages of language teaching available to our teachers. We need not expect miracles from this, but I feel that the application of the experience gained in other countries in relation to new language teaching methods, to the teaching of Irish will remove much of the drudgery from the teaching of the language and will make it easier for both children and adults to learn it.

This process has been more or less described by the Minister in his statement on the Estimate. It will, of course, take a considerable time and I suggest to the Minister that, where possible, he should make available to the teachers, even piecemeal, some of the new teaching methods so that they can utilise them in the teaching of the language in our schools.

The Glór na nGael competition, organised by Cumann na Sagart, has proved that the enormous effort put into the teaching of the language in our schools over the years was not wasted, that the people who have always said so were correct. Some of us have always believed—I have heard the former Deputy Mulcahy speak here in this vein—that it was only necessary to get the key to release the language our children, and many of our adults, have already learned, to further the revival of the language.

I feel that this Glór na nGael competition is, perhaps, that key. It has shown that where there is the right leadership locally, that is all that is needed to get our people to make use of the language, and to overcome their initial shyness of using it. I saw recently the programme on Telefís Éireann about Abbeyfeale, which this year and last year won the Glór na nGael competition. It was a very heartening experience. If this work which was done in Abbeyfeale could be repeated in towns and villages all over the country, we would be well on our way towards the revival of the language. There are many signposts to the progress we have made in the revival of the language but I feel this is perhaps the outstanding signpost.

One of the faults in our language revival policy was that the revival tended to be confined to schools. I am sure that was not the intention originally but what is now needed is to get it outside the schools also. Without question, it is absolutely necessary that the language be taught in the schools; otherwise, a revival would be impossible. It is only nonsense for people to talk, as I heard Deputy Costello talk a short time ago, about loving the language and respecting it, if we do not know the language. We can only know it if we are taught it. This competition in Abbeyfeale has proved that the enormous effort put into the language teaching over the years has been a very considerable success.

When we talk of voluntary efforts in regard to the language, it is of course well that voluntary organisations should do their part as they are doing, but unless the language is taught in the schools, the work of the voluntary organisations will be fruitless. This has also been proved by the Glór na nGael competition. The competition in the Six Counties has shown that even in the town which won the prize there, the results, to say the least, were extremely poor. I suggest the Fine Gael Party should reconsider and modify their Irish language policy in the light of experience gained in this competition because it is obvious from the results that unless the language is taught in the schools, it is hopeless to try to revive it.

When it suited our purpose—I do not say this was done deliberately to deceive—it was easy to say that much more Irish was spoken in the Six Counties than in the Twenty-six, but that was not in fact true. Because there was opposition to Irish in the Six Counties, the small group who were enthusiastic about the language were perhaps more vocal than they tend to be here where the same opposition does not arise. Still, the facts are, as shown clearly by the competition, that the people in the Six Counties, whether Orange or Green, except for a small group, have absolutely no knowledge of the language.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy will agree that if we cannot make people want to revive Irish, we shall not be able to revive it?

Mr. Faulkner

Yes, but unless children are taught the language, it is nonsense to suggest they will love it.

Mr. Dillon

We must teach them not only the language but to love the language or we cannot revive it.

Mr. Faulkner

Fundamentally, we must teach them the language.

Mr. Dillon

If we make it a handicap on them, it will not become beloved by the people.

Mr. Faulkner

I think these further points regarding the language are important. For many years, the language policy in this House was attacked mainly on two bases. One was that children were being introduced to the language too young and the other, that it was educationally unsound and mentally harmful to teach children through the medium of the second language. I think Deputy Dillon spoke on those lines some time ago. In the past year, there was a meeting of UNESCO psychological and educational experts in Hamburg and they gave as their considered opinion that bi-lingualism causes no mental or educational damage; that the second language should be taught as early as possible; that other subjects should be taught through the medium of the second language not only to the brighter children but also to all pupils; and that children who were taught in this way not only learn the second language but also benefit educationally.

I am sure these experts were not even thinking of the Irish language when they reached these conclusions. This appears to me to be a complete vindication of the principles underlying the methods used here for the revival of Irish. I do not say we can revive the language simply on the basis of the methods used in the past but, from what we are told according to the daily newspaper reports, there is no doubt that the fundamental principles used here are sound.

Mr. Dillon

Does the Deputy believe in teaching children arithmetic through the medium of Irish when the children themselves do not know the language?

Mr. Faulkner

I believe it is possible——

Mr. Dillon

Do you think it is a good thing to do?

Mr. Faulkner

I was taught in the secondary school through the medium of Irish and also in the training college, and I never found the slightest difficulty——

Mr. Dillon

What about the primary school?

Mr. Faulkner

When I was in the primary school, possibly the teachers then had not the competence to teach through the medium of Irish, but in the secondary school and in the training college, we were taught through that medium and personally I never had any difficulty, nor did I ever hear any students with me say they had any difficulty learning the various subjects through Irish. But because of the deluge of criticism of teaching subjects through Irish since I came to the House, I had a nagging fear that perhaps some students were adversely affected by the system. My own experience and that of others at school with me was that we never found any difficulty of that kind. However, because of the criticism and my fear that possibly some students were affected adversely, I should be only too pleased to have a full and frank discussion with members of all Parties regarding the revival of Irish.

Last night Deputy O'Donnell said it had been suggested—he said by Deputy Dr. Browne but that was an error; it was by Deputy Kennedy— that a Committee of all Parties should be set up to go into the whole question of revival of Irish. Deputy O'Donnell agreed with that and I should be delighted if such a Committee were set up. The language is of the utmost importance to the soul of the country and I should hate to find it involved in politics. I have always been very careful since I came here—and I think anybody who reads my speeches on education, on which I have spoken each year, will find this borne out— never to suggest that this Party alone had a prerogative so far as Irish was concerned. I was always careful to point out that I had no doubt many members of other Parties were as interested in the Irish language as I was. I felt it would be a good thing if we could have a Committee of this House to thresh out the whole problem and to decide on a policy about the Irish language, which is something which is above all Party issues, which is a national issue.

Supplementary Estimates, Votes 13, 19, 29, 41, 41 and 54, already agreed to in Committee, reported and agreed to.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Dec 1963