Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Feb 1964

Vol. 207 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote 30—Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration. — (Deputy P. O'Donnell).

Minister for Education (Dr. Hillery)

Last night I was dealing with the quantity of work to be done in reorganising and completing our educational system and the amount of money which must be spent to achieve that. We have to make a thorough study of the present situation, discover the gaps in our system, and the future needs of the areas in which the Government must be prepared to take action. All this will involve a large expenditure and, because of that, the matter must be studied carefully. It is, in fact, being studied carefully at the moment. This is being done by a national team, the members of which are carrying out a survey and who will report this year. The title under which they are operating is "Total Investment in Education in Co-operation with OECD". The Commission on Higher Education have almost finished their deliberations. They expect to report this year. When we have the reports and recommendations from these two groups, we should have signposted quite clearly the direction in which our educational planning must go, the amount of money which will have to be spent, and the manner of its distribution.

In the meantime, as I have said, we have taken into our own hands the planning of what was obviously necessary. I did this by announcing last May a plan for post-primary education which, when fully in operation, will, I imagine, fill up many of the gaps in our system at the moment. Since last May, two committees have been working in the Department on the details. One has been working out revised programmes in the various curricula and the other is carrying out surveys of the areas in which comprehensive schools may be sited.

The Programme Planning Committee is far advanced. This planning involves planning for a new examination at the present intermediate certificate level which will be open to students from not alone secondary schools but from comprehensive and vocational schools as well. It will be, if you like, a comprehensive examination with a common core of subjects to which students may, according to their aptitudes and abilities, add subjects which are not at the moment on the intermediate certificate course. Planning, therefore, involves new curricula to suit and embrace the present secondary school programme, changes in the present vocational school programme, a lengthening of that programme by a year instead of the present two-year course, and a complete new idea in the form of the comprehensive schools to deal with the whole lot within their own walls.

The other committee have reached the stage where preliminary negotiations with the local interests involved have been entered into in regard to the placing and organisation of the comprehensive schools in certain areas. That comprehensive examination and curriculum will deal with the schoolchild up to the age of 15 to 16 years. The course for that examination will probably be a three-year course and the examination will be taken at from 15 to 16 years. There will be some who will not normally want to go further, but the educational openings for those who wish to go forward will be the academic type of course now available in secondary schools to the Leaving Certificate level.

There will have to be a change on the technical side because we do not have a corresponding limb in our vocational technical courses. A new involvement, therefore, will be a technical Leaving Certificate examination with a course leading to it. That will be for students in the 16 to 18 years range. This technical Leaving Certificate would be itself a means by which a student could get on to a higher technological course, whether in a higher technological college or a university. This extra technical course will be carried out mainly in new regional technical colleges. As I told the House yesterday, I visualise at the moment about ten of these colleges. In addition to the two centres in Dublin and the centres in Cork and Limerick, I mentioned Waterford, Galway, Dundalk, Sligo, Athlone and Carlow as places which seem to me suitable. They seem suitable to me because of the results of the surveys we have carried out.

Mr. Dillon

Could the Minister say whether the technical Leaving Certificate will be sufficient for matriculation as the present Leaving Certificate is?

Dr. Hillery

It would be. There was a suggestion last night by Deputy Colley that this would be a broadly based examination, and I intend to give serious consideration to that. I would hope that in that type of technological subject anyway it would be accepted for matriculation purposes as an entrance to the university.

Mr. McQuillan

Would the Minister say whether these new technological colleges will be residential or whether provision will be made for transport?

Dr. Hillery

Arrangements will have to be made for students from outside places to stay near the college. Whether this would be done in the way universities do it or whether there would be special residences attached——

Mr. Barron

Hostels?

Dr. Hillery

It could be done that way.

Mr. McQuillan

What about the comprehensive schools?

Dr. Hillery

They are day schools. It is intended they would drain an area of ten square miles by the use of daily transport. Deputy Dillon suggested that, instead of this comprehensive school with a ten mile drainage area, we should have a parish school. The idea of the ten miles was to get a sufficient number of students into the school to warrant the employment of a sufficient number of teachers so that we could have a wide range of subjects. The number of subjects you can teach will depend on the number of teachers you can employ. This is directly related to the number of students coming in, and I do not think a parish school would be capable of giving the wide range of subjects to allow the aptitude of the pupils to be satisfied.

As well as this planning which has been continuing on a broad basis, the House is aware that at a higher level the university science block at Belfield is well under way and it is expected to open this year. For those who thought it was unnecessary, I should like to say it is just about on time to prevent a crisis in the university arising from the pressure of the number of students. These are the things that have been done while we are awaiting for the study groups to report.

The Dáil also passed a scholarship scheme which increased the number of opportunities for students by 300 per cent and also the opportunities to attend the university. This was necessary because it is bound to take some time before you can develop a comprehensive educational system where everybody will get an opportunity. In the secondary schools the last year or so has seen the revision of the physics course and of physics and chemistry, which is a separate subject, and botany. In fact, all branches of science for Leaving Certificate level have been modernised. Next year it is intended that a modernised mathematics course will be introduced on a five-year experimental basis. Recognition has been given to language teachers for service in Continental countries. As I told the Dáil already, a language laboratory is being established in Gormanston for research work and the training of teachers in Continental languages and in Irish. These improvements have been going on on the secondary side while awaiting larger developments.

I have taken some notes of points made by Deputies during the debate and I will deal with them now. I think I have covered the broad basis of the general plan. I hope nobody will say now that the plan was either produced for a by-election and that nothing has been done about it since.

Mr. Dillon

I think the Minister will agree it is still fairly nebulous?

Dr. Hillery

What is possible to be done has been done. It is inherent in educational planning that you have to do a lot of paperwork and curriculum work, especially with comprehensive schools with new types of buildings and new types of courses and control. These are the time-consuming and the difficult things to arrange. The actual building is much quicker.

Mr. Dillon

I still have a very dim understanding of what a comprehensive school will be. Will it be a kind of technical school with a secondary edge to it or will it be a secondary school with a technical edge to it? What will go on in the comprehensive school? Who will run it? Will it be like a national school with a headmaster appointed? Who will appoint the headmaster? What will be the courses in the comprehensive school? Will they be English, French, Irish, German, Spanish, geography, mathematics, science, engineering? What programme will the comprehensive school offer? What are the differences between a comprehensive school, a secondary school, a technical school and a primary school?

Dr. Hillery

I dealt with this before.

Mr. Dillon

Who will appoint the headmaster, for instance?

Dr. Hillery

I shall deal with the whole matter. One must think in terms of a comprehensive course and a comprehensive examination. My intention is to bring the vocational and secondary subjects, which are now in two separate compartments, together and make the vocational course, which is a two-year course with a certificate examination, a three-year course with an examination, which would be equal, both in its own merit and in the minds of the people, to the secondary course. This can be done by arranging the curriculum and the examination and allowing the vocational schools, on the one hand, to run a course and choose the subjects suited to them with a central core of subjects which is common to both schools, Irish, English and mathematics, for instance and, on the other hand, allowing the secondary schools to choose the type of subjects they require.

In certain areas of the country, there is no secondary school and no prospect of having a secondary school, and no vocational school. In those areas I thought a comprehensive school should be set up.

Mr. Dillon

Instead of a secondary or technical school.

Dr. Hillery

Combined. It would be all the subjects normally done in both the secondary and the vocational schools. I visualise it being managed by a committee of three, a representative of the local religious, a Catholic bishop or a Protestant bishop, a representative of the Vocational Educational Committee and a representative of the Minister for Education. The school would have a headmaster naturally.

The range of subjects would be all the subjects now done in a secondary school, all the subjects now done in a vocational school with some extra subjects which are not done in either except in the very big secondary schools. It is intended to have 24 or 25 subjects to give a sufficient range so that a child who is inclined towards the academic could follow what we normally think of as a secondary education, and a child who is inclined towards science could follow a stream where the stress is on mathematics and scientific subjects, all the time having the common core of essential subjects so that there would not be an imbalance. A child whose aptitudes are in his hands could take, say, metal work as a subject at this common intermediate certificate examination.

To have that many subjects would require a large number of teachers and the lowest number of pupils that would warrant that number of teachers would be between 150 and 400. To get that many pupils it would be necessary to go ten miles on every side of the school. This, of course, implies transport.

In the first year when students would come in there would be great differences in aptitudes and intelligence, different types of intelligence. Therefore, in the first year special services would be needed. I have already set in train the establishment of a psychological service with the Department of Education. In the first year students would be guided into the subjects for their second year. As I told the House last night, I intend to establish tests which will be developed to suit our own types of intelligence. At the end of three years it should be possible to advise students which type of course they should follow after that, and which subjects they should take in the examination. That is the general idea of the comprehensive schools.

Mr. Dillon

They will be technical schools with a full secondary programme incorporated in their curriculum?

Dr. Hillery

They will be both technical and secondary with a little bit more.

Mr. Dillon

An extended curriculum?

Dr. Hillery

With a choice of streams to be followed. It cannot be said it will be a large vocational school with a secondary course. It will have both what the secondary and the vocational schools can offer under the one roof and it will allow a student to take subjects from either course as he wishes and if he is able to do so.

I have answered many questions last night and this morning but when I was dealing with primary education I intended to deal with something to which Deputy Declan Costello referred, that is, the education of handicapped children. He has a special interest in one type of handicapped child, the retarded child, but there are many other handicaps, blindness, deafness, and so on, and there are 37 special schools in operation for handicapped children. I agree a great deal remains to be done. It is very heartening for me in relation to what is being done and what remains to be done to refer to the splendid work which is being done by large numbers of voluntary workers in that field. As Minister for Education, I wish to thank them on behalf of the public. Deputy Costello himself is very active in that field. I think he will agree that neither the Department of Education nor myself have been lacking in co-operating with them and giving them all the help we can.

There does remain the point referred to by Deputy T. Lynch, distinguishing between the function of the Minister for Health and that of the Minister for Education in relation to the mentally handicapped child as determined by the degree of handicap. At the moment there is a loose definition of the educable child. The teaching of such children comes under the Ministry of Education. The more severely handicapped children, and children in need of hospital care, come under the Department of Health. A commission, set up by the Minister for Health, is studying this problem, and it is a real problem, and in the meantime, as I say, those children who can benefit by schooling have the enthusiastic help of these voluntary bodies and the co-operation of the Department of Education.

Mr. Dillon

Before the Minister turns from that topic, has he had time to consider the problem of the slow child in the primary school who would greatly benefit if it were possible to give him special attention rather than trying to deal with him on the basis of the average child?

Dr. Hillery

I presume the Deputy means the child in the normal class. That depends on the pupil-teacher ratio being improved. If the class is big, the teacher will not have a chance to give special help to the child, but with the removal of the marriage ban, and the extension of the building of training colleges, we are getting more teachers available each year. Each year it has been possible to make an improvement in the teacher-pupil ratio. It is a matter of having smaller classes so that the teacher can give more time to the slow child. For the past couple of years St. Patrick's Training College has had special courses for trained teachers in teaching the retarded child. In this way we are adding each year to the number of specially trained teachers for dealing with special classes of retarded children.

I do not know whether I should refer to this next matter. It is hardly worth while. A body was referred to here last night, the Federation of Irish Secondary Schools. Deputy O'Donnell had a document produced by them, and he asked me to pay particular attention to it. I dealt with that here before. I was accused last night of having a vendetta with this group. That is not so. They may have a vendetta with me, but I am not troubled about them. I am bothered by their title. They are an unrecognised group and they used the title of the Catholic Lay Headmasters Association. They represent about ten per cent of the secondary schools. Deputies were under the impression that they represented all the secondary schools, and that error has also been in the newspapers commenting on some of their statements. They do not represent what their name would suggest.

As regards the document which Deputy O'Donnell had, I understand the authors of that document have already been told by an expert in the field of economic investment that it cannot be a basis for anything relating to research in that field. I do not want to take anything away from the amount of energy they have expended, but investment in education is a very specialised subject. We have this OECD team headed by Mr. Patrick Lynch, the economist, and supported by a statistician, another highly trained man. By the time they have finished, they will have spent two years studying, with the resources and co-operation of OECD and the Department of Education. They will publish statistical information and a general plan of investment in education.

I do not think any document produced, even by the most enthusiastic people, without the services of such qualified people, and without the support of an international organisation, can be regarded as being as useful as a specialist report. That does not stop them from publishing documents and using this name. I have no vendetta with them. When I became Minister for Education, they claimed they were a partner of the Department. They were taking more of the time of my officials than I was, under the guise of being a partner, and I had to ask them to stop. If they regard that as a vendetta, they are welcome to do so.

My only motive in mentioning this is to let the House know that they do not represent what their name suggests and that the work they purport to do is being done by a national team, in co-operation with OECD.

Mr. Dillon

I suppose the national team will hear and consider the representations of this body of Catholic laymen engaged in educational research. It is praiseworthy for them to formulate their views and bring them before the Minister and public representatives.

Dr. Hillery

I do not intend to take from them, but many things in the document were misleading. I dealt with this matter on the Estimate last year and I am reluctant to say any more in case I might add weight to the suggestion that there is a vendetta, but it would be unwise to act or to base any opinion in regard to our educational system, or prospects, on the figures they have produced. It will not be long before we will have a full and thorough report from the team who are well-equipped to produce it. I admire their energy and I do not say they should not do it.

Deputy Colley said the question of Irish was mixed with education, to the detriment of education. I presume more will be said about the report of the Commission, but there are certain things I have to say again. One is the question of compulsory teaching through Irish. I do not know of any such thing as compulsory teaching through Irish. I said that before, and I suppose I shall have to say it again. The use of Irish in schools was intended to be the practice in the oral use of the language which is the best way to learn it. It may have happened because of over-enthusiasm, but it was never intended, that Irish was used to the detriment of education.

About four years ago, or maybe three years, I sent a circular, to which Deputy Dillon referred, to the school managers. It was not anything secret. I did not shove it under the door and say: "Do not tell anyone," as Deputy Dillon suggested. I mentioned it in the Dáil almost at the same time. The circular was long, but it was long for the reason that it was in two languages, English and Irish. It told the teachers that in the junior classes the language of instruction should be selected by the teacher himself, having regard to the ability of the class to learn and his ability to teach through that language. If the teacher thought he could teach and the class could learn through the medium of Irish, then he should teach through that medium. If he thought they could not do that, then he should do it through the other language. This is not a change: it was never intended that Irish should be taught to the detriment of everything else. It may be that over-enthusiastic teachers may have used Irish as a medium but it was not intended that way. The use of Irish in the classroom was intended for those who already used it to improve their fluency while at the same time learning their lessons. There is no compulsory teaching through Irish. I think it was Deputy Dillon who said that we had done a disservice to the language by associating it with the idea of compulsion. All I can say is that everyone should examine his own conscience and see how much he has linked the word compulsion with the Irish language. It was never intended in the schools.

I have tried in recent years to put the stress on the oral rather than written use of the language. We have graded text books and standardised Irish to make it easier for the pupils to learn. I understand from the teachers it has improved the situation in the teaching of Irish and the ability of pupils to talk Irish.

There were many detailed points mentioned and one of these was mentioned by Deputy O'Donnell, who said he never heard the word "sionnach" in Donegal.

Mr. Dillon

Madra rua.

Dr. Hillery

That is what he said, but I am sure at some time he must have been called a sean-sionnach but perhaps he did not know it was the Munster word for "fox".

Mr. Dillon

I rejoice in the existence of the two expressions, although I am told it is high treason not to use the standard expression which is probably not either "sionnach" or "madra rua" and which is probably "sionnach rua".

Dr. Hillery

No, we use both of them.

Mr. Colley

The Deputy does not regard it as a crime to use standard English.

Mr. Dillon

What is the standard Irish for "fox"? I bet you do not know.

Mr. Colley

I do not know.

Mr. Dillon

There it is. We all know Irish but Deputy Colley does not know the standard Irish for fox. If so apt a scholar as the Deputy does not know this, does it not show that we are trying to invent a language, since those who speak Irish do not know it?

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us not follow that fox now.

Mr. Dillon

No, but is it not interesting that Deputy Colley does not know the standard Irish for "fox" but both of us know what the Munster Irish and the Connacht Irish is for fox. Does the Minister not agree with me that to invent a language is the last disservice to the Irish language?

Dr. Hillery

I said this before. A language that is alive is constantly changing. It is not a question of inventing it. It is constantly changing and any short visit I made to the Gaeltacht showed me that. New words are being brought in. If the converse were true and no new words were brought in, then you should worry about it.

Mr. Dillon

I agree, but is it not an awful thing that when a language is living and developing, you invent a language and forbid the teachers to speak the living language?

Dr. Hillery

We are not inventing it. We are trying to get a language that can be learned by the children——

Mr. Dillon

But it is not Irish.

Dr. Hillery

What is it?

Mr. Dillon

God only knows but one thing is certain—it is not Irish, not Munster Irish, Ulster Irish or Connacht Irish, and the people who know the language do not know it.

Dr. Hillery

But the people will be able to speak the basic Irish and be able to add to it.

Mr. Dillon

So long as there is a living language to absorb new terms, that is acceptable, and so long as existing dialects are linked in a natural way, that is a living language but to invent a new one that nobody knows——

Dr. Hillery

We are only getting the different dialects together into one so as to have some common basis that the children can learn and afterwards they can learn different dialects, if they want to. We want to give them something capable of being learned and in which they can be fluent and which will not be difficult. Much of the troubles of the Irish language are due to the wide variation in dialect and the difficulty which you normally hear about of a person in Munster listening to a radio news bulletin and not being able to understand a man from Connacht.

Mr. Dillon

I never heard of a Munster person not being able to understand a Donegal person. You might find that it was a bit hard for a Yorkshire man to understand a Lancashire man but it is basically the same language and they would know what each was talking about.

Dr. Hillery

I think it is essential to make it as easy as possible to learn and so provide the basis of a language and after that the pupils can add on to their store.

Mr. T. Lynch

We shall have an Irish that the Irish do not know.

Dr. Hillery

I think I have said enough to show that we have not been altogether idle in making necessary changes in our system. Anybody who would say that the plan for education was produced for the by-election could not understand what is involved in the formulation of an educational plan and anybody who says we have done nothing about it since is talking through his hat.

Mr. Barron

May I ask the Minister if he will consider having primary teachers trained in conjunction with the universities? I know it cannot be done in a day or a week but I ask him to consider it so that a primary teacher who goes down the country can give the benefit of what he received in the university to the schoolchildren and at the same time this will be useful for the integration of schools.

Dr. Hillery

There are various views on that and it has been discussed here and in England. The Robbins Report had something to say on it.

Mr. Barron

All I want is that the Minister will look into it.

Dr. Hillery

Yes. It has been brought to my notice through the teachers' organisation.

Mr. Treacy

Might I ask the Minister will there be a charge for admission to the comprehensive schools? When a child gets a Leaving Certificate from these schools, will a scholarship be sufficient to guarantee that it will cover the fees charged in the school of technology or the university, whichever the child might go to? To what extent will the education be free?

Dr. Hillery

When I announced the plan, I said there would be fees but there will be arrangements in some cases where such fees will be nominal, according to means. It is also intended that lack of means should not debar a child from going right to the top through these schools, if he has ability to benefit by it.

Mr. Dillon

It is taken from the Fine Gael policy, so it ought to answer it.

Dr. Hillery

He is Labour.

Mr. Dillon

He is, but I printed that in the Fine Gael policy and I am glad to see the Minister has adopted the very words I have employed: "The means of his parents will be no deterrent to the highest level of education".

Dr. Hillery

I have used them often. People cannot be that distinctive.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister denounced me during the general election for saying it from a public platform, on the ground that I was bringing education into the arena of politics.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

He has since been studying your speeches.

Mr. Dillon

I always welcome a convert.

Dr. Hillery

I did not. I accused you of bringing Irish into the arena of politics. Education was always there.

Mr. T. Lynch

It is time it was brought into some arena, before it dies out.

Mr. Dillon

It is a moment of congratulation to a convert. I am always glad to receive one into the fold.

Dr. Hillery

Anything good that is done, you claim credit for. I am delighted that you think this is good.

Question—"That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration"—put and declared lost.

Vote put and agreed to.