asked the Minister for External Affairs if the Government propose to provide financial assistance for the Irish centre in London or for the purpose of aiding Irish people in need in Britain; and if he will give details in a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Irish Centre in London.
5.
The Government is of course willing and anxious to help all Irish citizens in need, but distribution of State funds for this purpose on an ad hoc basis to various individuals, organisations and areas in Britain could not be effectively and equitably administered. Equity and reasonable control of the expenditure of the tax-payers' money require that the distribution of State funds to groups of Irish citizens claiming assistance should take place here in Ireland in accordance with the rules which govern our noncontributory social services.
Could the Minister say if he has received an application for assistance from the Irish Centre?
We had a very vague and indefinite one.
Is it receiving consideration or has any decision been reached?
My reply covered that. The difficulty is that if Irish people are in need, the Government are willing to take care of them and the Irish people would be glad to help to take care of them but it cannot be done over there: it can only be done here.
Is it not the fact that when these people are emigrants, the Minister is not further interested in them?
That is not true.
You know it is true.
Many emigrants have been encouraged to go out of this country because the Deputy and others are making that type of allegation. They are denigrating the country all the time. It is no wonder some of the young people go when they should stay at home. It is people like the Deputy who drive them out.
This is a matter that should concern all of us. I should like to ask the Minister, if the possibility of making financial assistance to individual voluntary organisations who are concerning themselves about this matter is not practicable, would the Minister consider the possibility of supplementing the personnel of these voluntary associations that are trying to look after some of our people who have got into trouble in England? This might be done either through defraying essential expenses or through something analagous to the United States Peace Corps, voluntary workers from this country who would go and supplement the personnel of voluntary bodies like the Legion of Mary that are already working and offer to supplement the probation services of some of the police courts in England that are at present unable to provide adequate probation service and where, if they were available, many boys and girls who are in danger of getting into trouble could be rescued from the danger of falling into the hands of the law?
It is very difficult to debate this subject at Question Time. I have dealt with it on a number of occasions. The matter has been dealt with extensively on the Estimate for my Department. I am hoping that we can get the Estimate in as quickly as the Government can make provision for it and we can have another debate on it. I would be anxious that everybody would see the matter as I see it. Although we would like and want to treat Irish people in need, the only place it can be done in a satisfactory way is here in Ireland. Once we start it on an ad hoc basis for our own people in Britain and appear to give them an established right to call on the Government here in great numbers or to call on the Irish people to sustain them abroad, I am afraid we are in for trouble. I have thought about this for many months. I see no way of doing it at Government level. If it has to be done, it must be done in a voluntary way. Money will have to be collected voluntarily here. They have to make arrangements to see that it is not misspent. It could easily be that with a number of people demanding money over there and saying a lot of exaggerated things about this situation, if they get the money the Irish people in need over there would not get it at all.
Leaving out the question of providing money to organisations in Great Britain if that is impracticable—I do not think it ought to be dismissed at once, but, if it were—is there any means by which, positively, we could help in providing voluntary personnel whom they have not got at this time but whom they could very readily use to help in their work of contacting boys and girls from Ireland who are in trouble and who want some sympathetic assistance to get them back out of trouble? I suggest the Minister should consider this—where the Legion of Mary are operating with 20 people, if ten more were added to them; if the city police courts in England, having a certain number of probation officers, would accept voluntary help of four or five additional ones whom we would provide.
The Deputy seems to get voluntary help mixed up with payment. Once there is payment, it is a different matter.
Study the Peace Corps.
I know there is a Peace Corps in the United States. They go to Africa. The Africans have no moral claim on the Americans. Nobody in Africa can ask in the American Congress why such a man in Africa got only 2/6 when another man got 5/-. We know what would happen if the Government here assumed responsibility for payments to individuals or to individual organisations or to individual areas in Britain. Some of the areas most talked about have a very high density of Irish people who, in fact, are helping themselves. There is a great exaggeration by some gentlemen on this issue. We are not all saints in Dublin, in Belfast or in London but the situation regarding the misbehaviour of the Irish people in England is very largely exaggerated.
The Minister said he had certain proposals, which appear to be very vague. He has given his mind on this now. Would the Minister consider the matter if more specific proposals were raised from this organisation?
I have dealt with this several times. There was a vague proposal that we should give some body £200,000. It was not itemised. It was not clear where the money would go: who would be the people who would control the building; who would be let into the building; at what cost. There are many voluntary societies over there operating hostels. We get letters complaining that those in charge of the voluntary hostels, and so on, are not treating people well. If it was done on State money, the stack of letters every Deputy in the country would receive would be terrible.
The proposals may have been vague. I believe they may have been vague because the Minister has been speaking for the past few minutes in terms of these people looking for hand-outs, and so on. I think they are concerned about a centre where they would get advice, information and general help.
The sum mentioned was £200,000 to begin with. I am talking about the sum which it was suggested the Government should give now.
I am sure the Minister has considered this over the years but I do not think he should turn his back completely on the idea of the establishment of an Irish centre in some part of Britain—London, particularly, where we have such a vested interest.
I do not want to encourage Irish people at home or abroad to rely on some scheme that will not bring them real fundamental moral relief. They have got to determine to pull themselves up and to have a few friends.
We have one-third of a nation over there. I do not think the facilities we have for them are adequate.
If we tax here the other two-thirds to support one-third over there to a point where another one-third would go, where would we be?
Question No. 6.
Give them a vote.
The Connolly Clubs and Red China are ruining you.
You cannot turn your back on this problem.