Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 3 Mar 1964

Vol. 208 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Vote 42—Industry and Commerce.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. J. Lynch)

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £185,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1964, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of sundry Grants-in-Aid.

The provisions for An Foras Tionscal under the Industrial Grants Acts and the Undeveloped Areas Acts in the Vote for 1963-64 for Subhead J.2 (Industrial Grants Acts) and Subhead J.3 (Re-equipment and Expansion Grants) were, respectively, £1,600,000 and £250,000. In the event, this has proved to be inadequate. Up to 3rd February, 1964, expenditure has amounted to £1,008,000 under Subhead J.2 and £124,500 under Subhead J.3 and it is anticipated that further payments on approved projects amounting to £752,000 under Subhead J.2 and £250,000 under Subhead J.3 will arise before 31st March, 1964.

The necessity for seeking additional funds at this stage is due in part to the unusual difficulties inherent in framing annual estimates of expenditure by An Foras Tionscal. As will be appreciated, it is difficult to time with any degree of precision the various operations involved in the establishment of an industrial undertaking, such as company formation, site acquisition and clearance, provision of the balance of capital, erection of premises and purchase of plant. At any of these stages unforeseen changes may arise which are influenced by factors completely out of the control of An Foras Tionscal.

The increase in the estimated expenditure under Subhead J.2 reflects also the success of the promotional programme undertaken by the Industrial Development Authority.

Total net commitments incurred up to 31st December, 1963, by the Industrial Development Authority under the Industrial Grants Act, 1956, and by An Foras Tionscal under the Industrial Grants Acts, 1959 to 1963, amount to £6,942,000 of which £2,453,643 has been paid leaving a balance of £4,488,357. Grants paid to date in the current financial year amount to £1,008,000 and it is expected that further payments to the end of the year will amount to £752,000 making a total of £1,760,000 in grant payments for the year.

Up to 31st December, 1963, grants had been approved by An Foras Tionscal under the Industrial Grants Act, 1956, and the Industrial Grants Acts, 1959-1963, for 82 undertakings. Eight of these projects have however now been deferred indefinitely. Of the 74 undertakings which are now proceeding 40 are already in production, building of the factories has commenced in 18 cases and a further 16 undertakings are at various stages with their arrangements for setting up the industries. These undertakings represent a total capital investment, including grants, of £29 million and at full production it is estimated that these 74 undertakings will afford employment to a total of approximately 16,000 workers—10,500 male and 5,500 female. A most important feature has been the extent to which projects related to the export trade are being developed. With two exceptions, all of the 74 undertakings will manufacture entirely or mainly for sale in export markets.

As Deputies are aware, the special legislation providing for the making of grants for the enlargement or adaptation of industrial undertakings was enacted only on 20th February, 1963, and it was not, of course, possible at the time to attempt any calculated estimate of the sum required for funds for An Foras Tionscal under this Subhead J.3. Payments to date amount to £124,500 and it is expected that further expenditure of £250,000 will arise before the end of the financial year. This total expenditure relates to 22 applications for special grants. As at 31st December, 1963, 244 other applications had been received.

I think it is reasonable to say that these figures indicate that the response to this special grants legislation has not been altogether disappointing but I am not yet quite satisfied that the urgent need for adaptation to meet conditions of freer trade is being fully felt by our industrialists or that there is a sufficient realisation of the fact that these special grants will not be available after 31st March, 1965. The economic disadvantage of operating under unsuitable conditions, even from the narrow context of the firm concerned, should not need to be stressed and I would urge a general awareness of the efforts of the Government to build up the economy and viability of our existing industries.

Another important aspect of the whole grants scheme to which I feel I should refer is the question of responsibility for the reaching of decisions on grant applications. Judging by the representations which I and my colleagues in the Government receive from time to time, it is evident that there is some confusion, even among Deputies, on this point. I wish to stress that the reaching of a decision on applications to An Foras Tionscal is solely a matter for the board of that body. An Foras was established by statute as the sole authority to examine and take decisions on such applications and there can, therefore, be no ministerial intervention in connection with the discharge by the board of their functions in relation to the administration of the scheme.

Deputies will note that the total amount of £285,000 in this Estimate is being offset by £100,000, an expected saving on another Subhead of the Vote.

I confidently recommend that the House should approve of this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Cosgrave

As the Minister explained, this Supplementary Estimate is necessary to provide additional funds for grants administered by An Foras Tionscal. It is satisfactory to note that the scheme is being availed of, although there are many firms who have not yet availed of the grant facilities. In that connection, it might be worth the trouble involved to have circulars issued, either by An Foras Tionscal or directly by the Department, to all industries, notifying them of the grant facilities which are available and directing their attention to the possible advantages involved in seeking readaptation and re-equipment grants.

I note from the Minister's statement that these grants will not be paid after 1965 and I should like to know why a time-limit is imposed. It is obvious that there is some urgency in the matter and it is quite possible that for a variety of reasons certain firms might wish to avail of these grants at a later stage and, in view of the programme of tariff reductions laid down under the EEC whereby the rhythm of tariff reductions will be fully effective by 1970, it seems to me that there would be some advantage in affording facilities for availing of these grants after 1965.

As I understand it, the EFTA countries have published a timetable for reducing tariffs and protection amongst themselves to take effect by 1966. It always seemed to me that that was merely an effort to get a jump ahead of the EEC countries. Whether that target is ultimately reached, only time will tell. However, so far as we are concerned, our original estimate here was based on the timetable laid down in the EEC programme and, on the assumption that we still intend to follow that programme, it seems to me that 1970 is a more practical aim than the immediate one of 1966.

In his concluding remarks, the Minister has expressed once again the conditions under which grants are made and the fact that these grants are decided on by an Foras Tionscal independently of the Minister. That aspect of the matter requires to be emphasised for more reasons than one. In that connection, it seems to me that some firms or individuals have the impression that firms with foreign connections get some sort of preferential treatment. I do not think that that is so, but whatever reason or reasons, a number of firms here have the impression that if a firm or company has outside participation, either capital or capital and technicians, it appears to be more welcome than a firm that is entirely Irish.

That impression may be due to the considerable efforts made over the years to attract external capital here. I believe that that policy is sound, that it is wise to attract external capital and to attract external technicians and people with know-how. It is a policy that has been supported by all sides of the House and one which has had support from different Governments. At the same time, the fact that that has been done may have been responsible to some extent for creating the impression, in certain quarters at any rate, that preferential treatment was being given or, if not preferential treatment, that an easier approach faces those with outside capital or outside know-how.

I believe it is important to make clear the basis on which grants are issued or awarded and, in addition, that the general policy behind the issue of grants should be clearly known and understood and that the general facts in relation to the issue of grants should be available to all who are interested in applying for them or, in the case of firms who may be interested, that the terms on which grants may be made or refused should be clearly understood.

The policy of providing industrial grants has undoubtedly justified itself. There has been a very substantial expansion in the development of industrial concerns that have been the subject of grants. The general incentive created by industrial grants and by tax remissions on exports has undoubtedly justified the confidence of those who introduced them initially. I have on previous occasions adverted to the views expressed by Professor Carter, the Jevons Professor of Political Economy at Queen's University, Belfast. He expressed the view some years ago that the biggest technical factor in industrial expansion here was the tax remission on exports. That and the industrial grants were all part of the same policy of providing the maximum possible incentives not merely for industrial expansion and consequential expansion in employment but for providing incentives for the expansion of exports because there is a general recognition and appreciation that the size of the home market is relatively limited and if industry is to expand and develop, we must continually expand export potential and increase industrial exports.

In the present climate of economic opinion in Europe, particularly, and in more recent times, with the aims under the Kennedy round of tariff reductions, it is obvious that we face keener competition and if our industrialists are to overcome the disadvantages which the country has compared with some other countries that have highly industrialised economies and uninterrupted industrial tradition, then it is obvious that the incentives provided by grants and the remissions or tax reliefs on exports are necessary if that drive and initiative and the aims which are recognised as worthwhile in the provision not merely of industrial or general economic expansion but also of providing increased employment, are realised.

These grants have provided assistance where needed and have afforded those concerned, who have already availed of them, an opportunity for expansion and re-equipment and, in some cases, initial development, to the advantage not only of the concerns themselves but of all employed directly or indirectly by them. We are glad this expansion has taken place and the Supplementary Estimate we are now considering is an indication that the progress already made is likely to continue.

Mr. McQuillan

In considering this Supplementary Estimate, it is no harm to recall that if this Government had their way, Ireland would now be a full member of EEC. We would be up to our necks in this Community. The grants mentioned in the Estimate are available to put us into a position to compete in that Community. We would thank our lucky stars that this gamble—that is all I can describe it as—by the mastermind did not come off. The suggestion by the Taoiseach made here and abroad was that Ireland was fully fitted to compete on equal terms with the existing members of the Common Market. We know now from the examination which has been carried out since those rash statements were made by the Taoiseach and the present Minister, that this is not so. In comparison with those European countries, we are like an invalid competing with a trained professional athlete.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will appreciate that this is a Supplementary Estimate and it would not be in order to discuss the question of the Common Market.

Mr. McQuillan

I am not going to discuss the Common Market. I am making an opening statement bearing on the reasons why these grants are available. These grants for helping new industry and for the re-adaptation or enlarging of existing industries are to help this country to prepare for the Common Market membership which the Government hope to achieve. I mention this so that we may realise what brought about this urgency of the year 1965 as the target by which date these grants would cease to operate. I shall not go any further into it except to say that the CIO reports show that the arguments put forward by the Government were wrong. Their whole case for admission was wrong and we should be thankful that this preparatory stage is still available to Irish industry and I hope, for the sake of the people, that industrialists will take advantage of the very generous offers made to private enterprise in this Supplementary Estimate.

The first comment I wish to make on the Estimate itself is the lack of mention by the Minister of what will happen the workers who are disemployed as a result of these adaptation grants which he is now giving. The Minister hopes to be able to spend by the end of the financial year no less than £400,000. I hope I am right in the figure. He has already earmarked £124,000 for adaptation grants and he contemplates that a further expenditure of £250,000 will arise before the end of the financial year. Approximately £400,000 is being given to 22 firms which are known and, perhaps, a number of others, to enable them to enlarge, perhaps, their existing concerns and, in respect of a considerable number of them, to adapt existing factories.

Has the Minister available the number of workers in those 22 concerns he has mentioned who will be disemployed or have been disemployed in the past 12 months? It is very significant that we have not heard a word yet from the two major Parties who have spoken on this Supplementary Estimate about the welfare of the workers whose livelihood is at stake as a result of these grants. It is a pretty grim situation to find that the workers as taxpayers are now being asked to subscribe, or hand over through the machinery of the House, £400,000 which will possibly mean that they will lose their jobs in the next few months.

I want to make clear that the Labour Party are fully in favour of the most modern methods of industrial expansion and the use of the most up-to-date equipment and machinery, but the Labour Party do not subscribe to the view that machinery and adaptation of industry must get priority over the welfare of the workers. If the taxpayers' money is to be paid out to help private enterprise retool, re-equip and adapt itself for European competition, we must ensure that the welfare of the workers in these industrial concerns will not be jeopardised as a result.

We have not had a word from the Minister as to what is the situation regarding the welfare of these workers. On a number of occasions over the past 12 months, the Minister has been questioned as to what progress has been made in the working out of a scheme to compensate, retrain or resettle workers who become redundant as a result of the implementation of these adaptation schemes. So far, we have had no indication of a firm nature from the Minister that any decision has been made with regard to the retraining of the workers who have, in many instances, already lost their employment.

I am afraid that what we are going to see is a gradual release of workers from various concerns as adaptation takes place, a gradual release of workers, a few now and a few again. This discharge of the workers will have a gradual growth and will not therefore become an embarrassing problem, either for the Government or the employers or, in many instances, the trade unions who have a responsibility to the workers, a responsibility to which many of them have failed to live up. We in this House cannot allow Irish capital and the taxpayers' money to be expended ad lib, in the giving of grants to private enterprise firms to adapt themselves, unless we have a guarantee that in the process of that adaptation, the workers will not lose their jobs or that, if they do, alternative employment will be guaranteed to them. Before there is any agreement on this issue of a Supplementary Estimate for adaptation grants, we want to know the situation with regard to employment in these concerns.

Some months ago I questioned a grant of £55,000 to a certain industrial concern that makes chewing gum not many miles from this city. I suggested that an adaptation grant or an enlargement grant of £55,000 was being given to this concern to enable it to adapt itself to the export market. When I raised that question here, Deputy Briscoe, and I hope he will come in here today, saw fit to make a personal explanation to the House in which he charged me with suggesting that this factory was about to lay off workers as a result of getting that grant. He said that instead of laying off workers, the intention was to increase the number of workers. I should like to ask the Minister and Deputy Briscoe, as a director of that company, what is the latest information they have with regard to the employment situation in that bubble-gum factory.

We want to make sure that if the money of the Irish people is to be handed out in such a generous fashion to these private enterprise concerns, the boys and girls working in them will not be told that they are being laid off. They are told that they are being laid off for some time but that it is hoped to take them back as soon as possible. Then, after two or three months, they are told that there may be employment for them in six weeks time. The result has been that many girls have gone to England, knowing well that the firm has no intention of re-employing them. These are the people to whom this House is now being asked to give substantial grants.

Whose interests are at stake? Is it the interests of the directors of these concerns who want to make their big dividends or is it the interests of the workers that are at stake? I want the Minister to answer that question because if we are to give £400,000 between now and the end of March to be expended on adaptation, it will only be given on the ground that every individual who loses his job through these adaptation schemes will be compensated, given employment elsewhere or re-trained. We shall have to get a guarantee that the workers will be safeguarded in their employment.

I should like the Minister to indicate the locality in which the majority of these 22 applicants are—whether they are located in the Dublin area, the Cork area or if a percentage of them are in the west. I should like some information as to the 74 concerns he referred to, 40 of which, he said, are already in production. I should like to know what proportion of these 40 are situated in the undeveloped areas, how many of them are in the west of Ireland, Kerry, Clare, Donegal, Monaghan or Cavan? Experience so far has proved that the alteration in the law which permits An Foras Tionscal to give more attractive grants to the eastern counties has also caused a big reduction in industrial development in the west.

Industrial development in the west under An Foras Tionscal was not very encouraging at any time but since similar grants are now available in the east, whatever development was taking place in the west under An Foras Tionscal has ceased. We have had the example, for instance, in Boyle in County Roscommon, of very strong efforts being made by a local development association. Every possible effort that could be made was made by an energetic group of citizens to bring an industry to the town. They met officials of An Foras Tionscal and of the Industrial Development Authority and asked them for assistance to set up an industry in Boyle. They were told that these bodies could do nothing to help them unless the people in Boyle were able to suggest what the industry should be. Is that not a case of putting the cart before the horse? Surely if we have an area in the west which needs State aid, advice and guidance, the people there should not be told: "It is up to you to get the industry and then we in Foras Tionscal and the IDA will examine into it and if we think it is suitable, we will give the promoters a grant."

We have the sad situation which now obtains in every little town in the west where there is a chamber of commerce or a development association of one kind or another, that they are tripping over each other to get to the door of the German Legation or some other legation and advertising in every European paper looking for private entrepreneurs in Europe to come to Boyle, Charlestown or Tubbercurry. “Come to us in your thousands if you have any type of industrial trading in Europe and we are prepared to give you a céad míle fáilte.” That is no way to depend on industries being developed. That kind of haphazard development, in my opinion, is disastrous. One town may be lucky enough to get somebody it can depend on but the next town may get applications from the biggest chancers in Europe. The result is that when a project is turned down, there is a feeling of despair in the area among those who initiated it and also among the workers who had hoped to get work.

The initiative in these cases must come from the State and the best possible way is for the State to step in where private enterprise has failed. I shall not develop that point any further. We are handing out these grants without any true pattern of industrial development being established. There is no true picture disclosed of how industry is being developed. There is no such thing as picking one area and deciding we will concentrate here on heavy industry and hope that we will attract into the towns nearby lighter industries which may depend on the major one for their advancement. There is no planning in that regard. All we do is hand out grants to these people, without any control afterwards as to whether they will stay for five years or for ten years or, having employed juvenile or female labour, they will not fold their tents and disappear overnight.

The Minister must realise when he answers questions in this House to the effect that he has no function in securing or saying that an industry will be placed in a certain locality that he is not carrying out his responsibility to the people. He has a function and a responsibility to the people. There is no question of washing his hands and saying: "I am prepared to help private enterprise."

Private enterprise, for 40 years, has been given the chance and has been exhorted, enticed and encouraged in every way possible by the Minister and this Government and other Governments to go into areas which today are fast being denuded of their population. When private enterprise has failed over that period to bring about the necessary stabilisation in population by giving industrial employment, why do the Government and the Minister not waken up to the fact that the Government must take it up in light of that failure? I do not know for how many years that has been said in this House and all we hear from the Minister and the Government is an exclamation of horror——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not seem to be a matter for the Supplementary Estimate, which deals with specific proposals for grants.

Mr. McQuillan

I shall not dispute your word, Sir. I may have enlarged the scope slightly but I was bringing it in under my question as to what proportion of the 40 new projects which are in operation are situated in the areas to which I have referred. That is the only way I can bring it within the rules of order. I should be very interested if the Minister could tell me that even out of the 40, 30 per cent of the money which is being made available will be spent in what were known as the underdeveloped or congested areas. If he could tell us that 30 per cent of these projects were in the west, we would not feel too unhappy. I should like him to enlarge on that. On the other matter, I hope the Minister will make clear what is the position in regard to the 22 applications which are before him for special grants for adaptation. What guarantees are available from the 22 applicants that the workers they employ at present will be guaranteed alternative employment elsewhere if they are not kept on in their existing jobs, or given opportunities for re-training so that they will be able to take up some other occupation, or given compensation? Before the Minister is given this £400,000, he will have to answer for the welfare of the workers to whom I have referred.

Mr. Colley

I was very interested to hear some of the points made by Deputy McQuillan. Unfortunately, when he came to the most interesting part, he said he would not pursue it any further. Listening to Deputy McQuillan, I tried to visualise the situation that would arise if instead of the practice which he says exists to-day—that of various towns, large and small, advertising on their own in European papers and endeavouring to attract industry—the officials of An Foras Tionscal, the Industrial Development Authority or of the Department of Industry and Commerce controlled this whole matter and decided that this industry will go to this town, this industry will go to that town, but that town will get nothing. I wonder would Deputy McQuillan be prepared to accept such a decision in regard say, to the town of Boyle. If he found that Boyle was getting no industry by virtue of a decision of servants of this State, would he be prepared to accept that?

Mr. McQuillan

They could not be any worse than they are.

Mr. Colley

Would Deputy McQuillan accept this decision? The position now is that there is every opportunity for such a town to get an industry but the situation could arise, and must arise in regard to any town under Deputy McQuillan's suggestion, that it will not get an industry because of a decision made in Dublin. If one had to choose, I would prefer to choose the present position. Every town in rural Ireland cannot hope to get a new industry within, say, the next ten years. There has to be only a small number which would benefit. If that is to happen, I should prefer to see the decision being made on the basis of economic reasons, arrived at by the people who are investing money, or based on a contributory factor, namely the initiative and devotion to their cause by the local people, rather than have the decision made by some faceless officials here in Dublin. Deputy McQuillan is, I think, carried away by theory. He has not visualised, perhaps, how this theory would work out in practice. I did not rise simply to cross swords with Deputy McQuillan.

Mr. McQuillan

Does the Deputy think the State should have no function with regard to the key planning of industrial development?

Mr. Colley

If the Deputy means that the State should have no function in regard to providing incentives, and so on, but I do not think he means that.

Mr. McQuillan

No. For instance, the Sugar Company must set up in Tuam. That was a direction by the Government. Was it right or was it wrong?

Mr. Colley

But there were economic reasons for that.

Mr. Corish

They were all against it at the time.

Mr. Colley

The Deputy knows that, if economic reasons are to decide the location of industries, his constituency will do very badly out of such an arrangement.

Mr. McQuillan

Why?

Mr. Colley

On an economic basis.

Mr. McQuillan

But in Tuam the decision was made on a political basis, to help the small farmers in the west and relieve the unemployment situation. That was why it was set up against the advice of all the economic experts in the country.

Mr. J. Brennan

That was State enterprise.

Mr. McQuillan

Yes.

Mr. J. Brennan

We are talking about private enterprise.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I doubt if the location of industries arises relevantly on this Supplementary Estimate. It could be raised more appropriately on the main Estimate.

Mr. Colley

Perhaps Deputy McQuillan and I can pursue it on the main Estimate then. It is a very interesting subject. The Minister announced that the amount estimated for industrial grants had not proved enough. That is a very good sign of the development of our economy. We can be well satisfied, I think, that in general the money spent by the State by way of industrial grants has been money well spent. We have had some failures, but the percentage is very small. The Taoiseach said at a very early stage of this campaign that we could expect to have some failures. If we were to ensure that grants were given only to firms we were certain would succeed, then we might save ourselves certain losses, but we would also very effectively ensure that the economy of the country would not be developed as it has been developed and thousands of workers who are in employment today would be idle. The approach must be one of reasonable prudence but not overdone caution. We need more money for these grants and that is a very welcome sign indeed.

There is one relatively small matter, as far as the House is concerned, but it is an important matter from the point of view of individuals. It is a matter to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention. It has come to my notice that certain firms which have availed of industrial grants— Deputy McQuillan may be interested to know that some are located west of the Shannon—have employed foreign architects, foreign quantity surveyors and foreign engineers. They have brought in plans and even materials from abroad. I am not sure of the extent to which they have imported materials but there were instances in which Irish materials could have been used and were not used. Except in exceptional circumstances, we should insist that, if the State is providing the generous assistance it does provide, our people get all the benefit they can from the building of factories and the development of factories. Our architects, quantity surveyors and engineers should benefit. In odd cases there may be justification for departing from this practice, but they would be very unusual cases.

The Minister also referred to our general policy in regard to industrial grants and the development of industries. What I have to say now may seem elementary, but I believe it is worthy of repetition and cannot be impressed often enough on our people. The object of the Government, of any Government in this day and age, is to increase the employment opportunities available to our people and to ensure that such employment yields a reasonable standard of living. It is obvious that we cannot hope to have any increased employment provided by agriculture outside of some phenomenal development in horticulture. That is a possibility, but it is only a possibility. Like every industrialised country in the world, we find that the tendency is for employment created by agriculture to decrease. It follows, therefore, that we must depend on industry to provide increased employment.

We know that, in regard to most commodities, the home market is saturated. It follows logically, therefore, that our expansion must be directed towards industrial development geared for an export market. That is, as I say, elementary, but it bears repetition. It is something we should always have in mind, particularly when we hear complaints, as we have on occasions, about the amount of money spent in encouraging foreigners to set up industries here and the amount lost to the State by virtue of tax concessions in relation to exports. It is easy to criticise, but, when criticising, one should remember the basic and elementary economic fact that the extent to which we wish to increase employment can be measured by the extent to which we direct our efforts to securing the setting up of more industries designed to serve an export market.

In recent years we have been fairly successful in this regard, more successful than many people thought we could be, or perhaps hoped we could be. We have, however, a long way to go. Having secured an export market, it does not follow we will hold it unless we continue all the time at full stretch. As far as the House is concerned, the feeling, I think, would be to urge the Minister on to further efforts along the lines he has been following in the past and the adaptation grants are a logical development of acceptance of the facts I have mentioned. If we want to survive, not to mention expanding, we are obliged to ensure that our industries are capable of competing in the markets of Europe and the world. Some of our industries have proved very successful and have set a headline for others of our industries. However, when I hear the kind of complaints we have been hearing from Deputy McQuillan in regard to the adaptation grants, although I do not say he is entirely out of line in his complaints—his concern for the workers who may be affected in their jobs is certainly admirable—I wonder if he is not pressing his concern to such an extent that he is losing sight of the reality of the situation. I do not know what the figures are but I am quite satisfied that there must be many thousands of our workers who are today depending entirely for their employment on our success in exporting industrial products. Therefore anything that tends to make us less competitive directly threatens the employment of these people.

One must keep a sense of perspective about this and if one finds that our industries cannot compete unless they are given these adaptation grants and use them effectively, then it is reasonable that we should push these grants, even if one of the consequences is that in some cases workers will be laid off. The best guarantee we can give to workers who may be in danger of becoming redundant as a result of the more efficient organisation of our industry is our effort to ensure that our industries are as effective as we can make them. Unless we can do that, we cannot ensure employment for any of our workers in industry. In so far as we can make our industries efficient, we can provide employment not only for our existing workers but for more workers, as we have done in recent years.

The number of industrial workers is growing steadily and the employment they are getting is good employment but this is not happening just by chance. This is happening because our efforts are directed towards ensuring that our industries are being made efficient and it is being made possible for them to compete on the export market. If we fail to do that, the employment of thousands of workers is threatened. For that reason, I repeat that the best guarantee for our workers is the knowledge that the Government are doing everything possible to ensure that our industrial concerns are competitive.

Mr. O'Sullivan

While I agree with the Minister's statement in his brief introductory speech that it is difficult at times with any degree of precision to present an annual Estimate that is close to the demand that may subsequently arise, I want to know from the Minister whether this Supplementary Estimate has been inflated in any way by increased costs that have arisen since the annual Estimate was introduced. Is this Estimate designed specifically for new undertakings which were not provided for in the annual Estimate or have increased costs an impact on this, the danger to which Deputy Colley adverted when he referred to what would arise in the event of Irish industry becoming less able to face present-day competition in the export market.

The Minister might give us an idea what he envisages in that respect because some leaders of commerce throughout the country have expressed their opinions of the impact upon their industries of the retrospective corporation profits tax imposed in last year's Budget and of spiralling costs in other respects. During these weeks, the local authorities are all presented with formidable demands in regard to rates and——

Mr. J. Lynch

The elections are over.

Mr. O'Sullivan

The by-elections are over but that does not mean the Minister can sit back and view with complacency the consequences of his actions and those of his Government. The Minister can expect to be reminded daily and hourly of the consequences of that policy and no expensive letter will excuse all the consequences——

Mr. J. Lynch

As long as I make it relevant to what is in hand.

Mr. O'Sullivan

It is quite relevant. Deputy Colley referred to the danger presented by the competition facing industry and it is a challenge to this Government, a challenge to everybody in industry, to guarantee that whatever difficulties may exist will be surmounted and that whatever difficulties may appear on the horizon will, should they come, be surmounted.

There is also an obligation on the Government in the pursuit of their policy not to aggravate the difficulties which many people who are giving good employment have to meet and have to surmount. In that respect the Minister need not be so irascible or so sensitive. He has an opportunity of replying and I am surely entitled to make these observations, subject to the control of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I started out on a constructive note and I did not intend to make political capital out of some of the present occurrences but there is plenty of material.

Mr. J. Lynch

The Deputy spoke about rates and corporation profits tax, and they are not relevant at all here.

Mr. O'Sullivan

They are not relevant to increased costs in industry? The leaders of industry in the chambers of commerce throughout the country hold a different view from that of the Minister, as expressed at their meetings.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It does not arise on the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. O'Sullivan

I want to know whether these increased production costs have had any impact on this Supplementary Estimate?

Mr. J. Lynch

If it will cure the Deputy's irrelevancies, let me say they have not the slightest effect.

Mr. O'Sullivan

We have got a reply after the Minister cooled down. The Minister in page two of his speech gave credit to the Industrial Grants Act of 1956. The House will recall that the leader of his Government assured us when that Bill was being introduced that, were he to obtain control at any time, he would see it was brought to an end. Now we have the conversion of his successor in the Department of Industry and Commerce who has paid tribute to the developments that have taken place in the country in consequence of that Act. I give credit to the Minister and the Party for having adopted it and having expanded some of its provisions.

We are very glad the Minister has included in his statement a reference to the fact that he has no influence in the siting of industries. When some of the people behind him go down the country, they express other views. It is reminiscent of the statement of ex-Deputy Boland after he left the Department of Lands that never at any time could the Minister influence the operations of the Land Commission. It is well, therefore, to have this on record.

I recall distinctly that when the whole approach to an industrial development was examined by another Government and when it was decided by way of tax exemption, by way of substantial grant, to encourage industrialists to come in from abroad, powers were given to the Industrial Development Authority so that no industrialist, either native born or coming from outside, would be hamstrung in regard to the location of industry. It should be left completely in the hands of An Foras Tionscal to determine where an industry has the best chance of survival. Some years have elapsed since 1956. The Control of Manufactures Act was deliberately enshrined in our legislation to prohibit the investment of capital from outside in Irish industry. The Act has operated for a quarter of a century and for a long number of years, members of this Party referred to the unfairness of that Act. There were the depths to which people sank in order to circumvent the conditions of that Act——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is a Supplementary Estimate, dealing with specific points. The Deputy is entitled to refer to the subheads. Anything outside that is for the main Estimate.

Mr. O'Sullivan

The Minister referred to An Foras Tionscal and to the Industrial Development Authority. I assume Deputies are in order in doing so, too.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister referred to it in passing.

Mr. J. Lynch

I did not refer to the Control of Manufactures Act.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Surely I am entitled to say that the views expressed by the Minister are in contradiction of the provisions of the Control of Manufactures Act?

Mr. J. Lynch

You did not repeal it while you were in Government.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Although we are gratified at some of the industries secured under the promotion of An Foras Tionscal, many of our people are concerned about the extent of some of the money invested. There has been a reluctance in some cases to divulge information. There is a reluctance to reveal the extent to which money is invested.

Mr. J. Lynch

Every penny is accounted for in the reports.

Mr. O'Sullivan

I know, but the Minister will recall one occasion on which it took a very long time to get the information. It was impossible to secure the information in this House but it was divulged at a dinner outside the House. It is discouraging that some concerns which secured large contributions by way of industrial grants are reluctant to implement the ninth round of wage increases.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Supplementary Estimate, which is confined to money for development outside the undeveloped areas and to money for the re-equipment of industrial undertakings.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Sums of money were mentioned by the Minister under certain headings. Surely we are entitled to refer to expenditure in relation to encouragement to industrialists?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have told the Deputy what the money is being voted for.

Mr. O'Sullivan

The Minister refers to 22 projects. Do they include a grant for the accelerated freeze-drying factory to be located at Bandon? If so, what about his undertaking on an earlier occasion that in the event of development in that town and vicinity, he would include Bandon in the undeveloped areas so as to qualify for a maximum grant? Is it the Minister's intention to redeem that undertaking and to sanction to that industry the maximum grant?

The Minister is aware of the difficulties of old-established industries relative to the easement of import duties. He is aware of one industry in particular in this connection. I know he will give all his attention to the matter and will take such action as will be necessary to preserve employment in it.

Deputy McQuillan and another Deputy referred to potential employees in industry. The Minister should immediately consult the Minister for Local Government relative to housing for workers in some industries. As recently as the past week, an old-established firm close to Cork city has had difficulty in relation to transporting workers considerable distance. We cannot export many thousands of our people, as has happened in recent years, and expect to have a pool of labour available for an expanding industry. Antediluvian regulations apply in the Department of Local Government to the housing of such workers. The legislation should be revised as soon as possible so as to permit local authorities to avail of maximum grants and to proceed with this housing which is an absolute factor in securing the best types of employees for an expanding industry. Before the Minister introduces his main Estimate, we trust the headaches of so many individuals relative to the position of the Equitable Insurance Company will be cured, as was promised.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Corish

I shall be brief, especially as the Chair seems to have ruled out of order any reference to the location or direction of industry. I am sure that matter can more fully and more appropriately be dealt with on the main Estimate. My views on it are not in conflict——

Mr. J. Lynch

I do not think the Leas-Cheann Comhairle ruled that out. There was no comment on it at all.

Mr. Corish

I may have misunderstood the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. My views are not in conflict with those expressed by Deputy McQuillan. The Minister has a broad idea of my views on that matter. I do not think there is anything wrong with the Government making efforts to ensure that various parts of the country are equipped in the matter of industry. They have done that in many cases. In their first piece of legislation dealing with assisting industry, the Undeveloped Areas Act, the Government, without specifying that an industry would be located in this or that city, in this town or that village, provided for an increase in assistance so as to encourage industry in a certain part of the country. They did not give a specific direction, but there was a general direction to those who wanted to establish industries in the country to go across the Shannon.

The Government decide what harbours are to be developed. I grant that they get expert advice, but they decide whether the harbour to be developed should be in Galway, Cork, Wexford or Wicklow. They have reference to all the recommendations of their advisers before they decide which harbour should be developed. In the establishment of semi-State industries, the Government naturally decided where the industry is to be established. I do not know what induced them to have the sugar factories located in Thurles, Carlow, Mallow and Tuam. Originally it may not have been so, but now it is true that the four factories are situated in centres where beet is generally grown. But was it necessary to have a factory built in Thurles instead of Nenagh, in Mallow instead of Mitchelstown, in Tuam instead of Galway or Athlone?

I could go a little further in relation to the reports of the Committee on Industrial Organisation. They recommended the establishment of industrial zones. It would not be private enterprise that would decide where these zones would be located: naturally, it would be the Minister for Industry and Commerce or the Government. The CIO saw nothing wrong in that. There were representatives of employers and workers on that committee and they saw nothing at all wrong with the establishment of zones in which industries would be developed, by private enterprise or by the State.

I do not see anything wrong with encouraging private enterprise to go to certain parts of the country for the establishment of industries. It would be impossible, and undoubtedly unfair, to suggest to the Minister that he should say to the potential founder of an industry: "If you do not go to Tralee, we will not give you a loan", or:"If you do not go to some town in Donegal or Tipperary or Wexford, you will not get a grant."

On the other hand, I do not see any objection to any Government agency, or the Minister, encouraging people to go to areas where there are resources available, especially in the matter of workers. The Minister does not have to go to the length of catching the industrialist by the scruff of the neck and saying: "You must go there." He can encourage the industrialist to go to a place where it has been established there has been unemployment and general uneconomic conditions over the years.

It has been said that private enterprise is the best judge as to whether or not an industry will survive in a particular area. However, I repeat that I do not think they should have a final say. The Minister has given us figures of the millions of pounds that have been invested by way of loan and grant in new industries. Surely, if we give those loans and grants there should be some say by the Government, through the Minister and his agencies, as to the location of new industries.

On page 2 of his statement, the Minister says that the total capital investment in such undertakings has reached £29 million. He says that at full production it is estimated the undertakings will afford employment to a total of approximately 16,000 workers. I should like to know from the Minister if he thinks the investment was worth while, taking into consideration the numbers who are employed. The figure may be described as excellent, fair or very bad. I am not in a position to judge, but I should like the Minister, when he comes to deal with the main Estimate, to tell us whether or not the employment of 16,000 workers is good value for the capital invested not so much by private industries but by the State itself and by the Minister's Department.

The figures given about employment and the establishment of new industries are always very patchy and vague. Recently I asked the Minister about newly established industries and I was supplied with a list that went into page after page. They were described as industrial undertakings or the extension of businesses. By comparison with the number of pages, the employment could not be said to be considerable.

In the matter of giving financial assistance to the establishment of industry, one of the principal factors should be the amount of employment to be given. I agree it is important that we should increase industrial production, but much more important are the number of people who are expected to benefit from it, those who will be employed. The Minister should ensure to a far greater extent that the number employed will be one of the big factors he will consider in giving financial facilities to those who come from abroad to establish industries.

I was somewhat surprised that the Minister did not mention the various reports issued by the CIO. That committee were charged with the task of examining various industries to see how they would fare under Common Market conditions and what they should do to prepare and equip themselves for such conditions. On page 3 of his statement, the Minister says he is not quite satisfied that the urgent need for adaptation to meet conditions of freer trade is being fully felt by our industrialists.

I am glad he sees that now. From the Labour benches, and particularly by the late Deputy Norton, this aspect was stressed and stressed again during the past two or three years—the urgent need for the preparation of Irish industry for participation in the Common Market and for the implementation of the recommendations of the CIO in this respect. According to what the Minister now says, it seems the time is running out for many of the industries which we had expected to survive under conditions of freer trade.

The Government say they are giving generous assistance by way of adaptation and re-equipment grants. During the past two years, we have been asking the pertinent question as to what would happen if industries did not avail of assistance offered by the Government: what would the Government do if the industrialists said: "What difference does it make? We will be sold out of the market, we will be out-traded".

The Minister says he is not satisfied that the urgent need for adaptation is being fully felt by our industrialists. I have always believed that in such a situation, stronger Government action is needed. There are tens of thousands of workers depending on the simple decision of one man in an industry or of seven or eight directors as to whether or not the industry concerned will meet what we have been calling the Common Market challenge.

The grants will not be available after 31st March, 1965. That is only 13 months away. Up to date the Committee on Industrial Organisation has made a survey of about 20 industries, and only in respect of very few of them could they say that these industries would survive without having to do anything. One such industry was the printing industry. The consensus of opinion there was that not only would it survive but that it might even thrive in Common Market conditions. But the same story was not told in respect of other industries, heavier industries than the printing industry. The CIO made certain recommendations about adaptation and re-equipment. These grants will not be available in 13 months' time, yet many of these industries are doing nothing, or at least we have not any evidence they are doing anything to meet the recommendations made which were accepted by the Government.

The Minister said that by the end of this year, he will be committed to the tune of £375,000. Perhaps he would be able to tell me in respect of what industries these grants are being paid. I do not want to know the actual names; and if the nature of the industry would identify it, I agree he might not be able to mention it here. But if it is in respect of leather, cotton, rayon and woollens, or whatever it is, he should say it in order to give encouragement to the workers engaged in those industries, to let them know that efforts are being made in respect of these industries and that there is no great prospect of these industries flopping and their being rendered unemployed.

Deputy McQuillan referred to one of the most frustrating things about this whole business. We are acting as if we were members of the European Economic Community, but we are not deriving any advantage from the Community. Naturally, we cannot because we are not members. Yet we are stripping ourselves of the protection we have enjoyed for such a long time. In January, 1963, we stripped ourselves of 10 per cent, and in January, 1964, of another 10 per cent. I do not know what the future pattern will be, but it will be becoming more and more severe all the time. For that reason we should say to private enterprise: "You had better be up and doing" and, if they are not, we say to the Government: "You had better be up and doing." I think it was Deputy Colley who said that if adaptation and re-equipment means men will be rendered unemployed, it is important but it is not the most important aspect because, if by adaptation and re-equipment production is increased, then that is the main thing. He may be right to some extent. In regard to adaptation and re-equipment, in the Common Market countries there is a scheme of compensation. I do not know if men have been rendered unemployed because of new methods or adaptation in any of our industries. If they have, I want to ask the Minister have we yet evolved any scheme whereby redundant workers would be either compensated or trained for some other employment. These are very pertinent questions on this Estimate and I should be obliged if the Minister could, as far as possible, answer some of them.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach (Mr. J. Brennan)

The importance of this Estimate makes it imperative for those of us interested in the undeveloped areas to intervene. Some of the speakers on the other side prefer to be critical—possibly just for the sake of being so—without being constructive. I wish to express the greatest possible admiration for the success which has attended the Minister's effort in regard to industrial grants generally. His introductory statement was most encouraging indeed. The only fault those of us from the western seaboard can find with it is that we should like a greater share of the industries, and it is with that matter I should like to concern myself principally.

Deputy McQuillan's reasoning in regard to the need for making immediate provision for redundancy does not make sense to me. If we make a serious effort to preserve industry and to ensure that it can survive world competition, surely we are doing a good job for the people employed in industry? To say we are actually asking the people to vote money to render themselves redundant is, therefore, contradictory. If in the course of an industry becoming more efficient and gearing itself to meet more competition some workers are rendered redundant, the natural thing to expect is that the increased output will absorb those workers. I know of concerns that have virtually doubled their output in recent years but have not doubled the number employed. I know a very efficient industry in Donegal with a big export business. In the last four or five years they have virtually doubled their exports but have not increased very much the number of people employed. That is the pattern we may expect as a result of adaptation programmes to meet foreign competition and freer trade. No matter how you look at it, when you put a firm in a position to compete, you put it in a position to continue to provide employment for its workers. That is a better outlook for the workers concerned than the fear of having the industry closed because of foreign competition. I prefer to look at that side of the picture than the likelihood of some workers being rendered redundant.

Deputy O'Sullivan tried to attack our whole system of industry and take credit for some of the industries set up here. I do not want to start recriminations but it is most refreshing for those of us on this side of the House to hear Fine Gael referring to the success of industry here. We have come a long way. It is not long ago since we were criticised for imposing tariffs to enable our little industries to gain their feet. We were told we had workshops in backyards and we were calling them factories. I heard the present Leader of the main Opposition say that Fianna Fáil had gone so daft about industry that if they put Aspros on a string, they would call it an industry. Those days are gone. We have brought industry to the stage where we have defeated the greatest pessimists—and there were many of them—and have proved that we can do the job as well as anybody, and better in many cases.

That is how far we have come and it is the result of an industrial drive which commenced not so many years ago and which faced opposition, not abroad, but at home, when Irish money was induced into these industries, just because they were given protection in the home market, which was a rather limited market but sufficient to get the necessary nucleus of industry on its feet. The stage has been reached when today we can talk about the Common Market and about competing with big industrial concerns, a position we never would have reached but for protection given when it was needed. We are in a position now to talk about reducing that protection, about going into conditions of freer trade and bringing up our efficiency.

Deputy McQuillan accused us that we are not in the Common Market and that we would not have been able to compete had we got in when we had applied. That is all nonsense. It is a question of what adjustment in the rate of tariffs we will have to accept at the time of our admission. We should make use of the waiting period to ensure that we will be geared up to a point at which, no matter what the tariff rhythm may be, we will be fit to accept it and to compete with the other countries who will have been members long before we get in.

I do not want to dwell on this question of the history of industry in this country. It is a very interesting history and, as to 99 per cent., it is the history of Fianna Fáil. There is no gainsaying that fact. That is not what we want to glory in. We must concentrate on the future. We have an important part to play in the time ahead.

I intervened in this debate in order, mainly, to refer to the question of undeveloped areas. I do not agree with the Labour representatives who say the Minister should take absolute control of private enterprise and pinpoint the exact place where every or any industry should go. Many of the industrialists with whom I have been in touch would not leave a particular area, irrespective of the grants they may get in another area. Others may not be too concerned and may be prepared to go further out to the western seaboard. Indeed, a few industrialists have been found to be prepared to go into Donegal. Naturally, every Deputy is interested in his own constituency.

I should like to impress upon the Minister publicly what I have tried to impress upon him, and with which he has agreed, privately, that Donegal does present unusual problems in so far as industrialisation is concerned. It does require some special treatment. While Donegal is picking up an occasional worthwhile industry, it cannot expect a boom such as will be experienced in Cork, Dublin or the larger towns in or around the province of Leinster. Donegal is virtually isolated from the rest of the Twenty-Six counties. Particular attention should be paid to contacts with six counties industrial concerns for the purpose of development in Donegal.

There is one thing which the Minister could do in relation to the western seaboard and Donegal in particular, namely, to consider extensions of State-sponsored enterprises. In that respect the Government can to a great extent give directives as to the location of an industry. There are a number of important semi-State bodies, such as Bord na Móna, Cement Limited, the Irish Sugar Company. The Forestry Division of the Department of Lands could also play an important part in relation to undeveloped areas.

Bord na Móna is based mainly in the midlands where large tracts of bog are available. The midland bogs are most favourably situated from the point of view of distribution for the home market. That area of bog cannot last indefinitely. There are in Donegal some of the largest tracts of virgin bog that remain in Ireland. We should like to see an extension of the activities of Bord na Móna into Donegal. There is already one very excellent centre in the Glenties area. The quality of the bog and of the available labour is second to none. We consider that the time has come for the development by Bord na Mona of the areas in Donegal that have been surveyed. Naturally, the areas where there is sufficient virgin bog available will receive prior consideration.

Mr. J. Lynch

I interrupted other Deputies and I think I should interrupt the Parliamentary Secretary to say that I have nothing to do with turf, nor has this Estimate.

Mr. J. Brennan

It is a very important industry and, if I may remark, the Minister is greatly concerned with industrial Development and Government policy generally. The question of Cement Ltd. is one that I should not like to discuss at length but it is an industry that has made rapid progress and has reached a very high stage of development. I am very interested to know that they have acquired in Donegal a considerable amount of limestone land and I hope that at some stage there may be developments. The sooner the better because the area concerned is particularly badly in need of an industry.

I have also referred to forestry projects. The Minister may tell me that he has nothing to do with forestry but one cannot help referring to a matter which is capable of future development. I refer to pulp production. In Donegal, there are some of the largest forests in Ireland, many of which have now reached maturity and will be in the near future, if not right now, available for commercial purposes. That is an industry that may not be developed by private enterprise. It may be too big for private enterprise. I think it is worth while giving a hint to the Minister.

No doubt, claims are made for various areas and a better case can be made for many areas than can be made for the western seaboard, for various reasons. The question of climate must be considered. That question must be examined in connection with the development of the western seaboard. I refer to all the amenities that workers expect when they set up in a particular area. Schools, secondary schools, universities, technical schools, all these facilities and amenities are very much centred in and around the cities. Housing accommodation sometimes proves a problem, too. I think, if we are to make a real effort with regard to the western seaboard, it might be worth while considering a development somewhat on the lines of the development at Shannon Airport at the present time. This would necessitate the provision of schools, housing and other amenities which workers require and which are not available outside the highly industrialised cities.

The important thing is that we can talk about these things in the context of this Estimate in so far as it is most encouraging. The number of projects which are mooted, under way, or the actual number of inquiries in relation to industry generally is most encouraging and if we are only to benefit by the windfall from the success of the whole scheme, then we would not be doing too badly, but it is only natural that those of us who are removed from the highly industrialised centres should press at every possible opportunity to ensure that we get a share of everything that is going.

I listened at Question Time today to the comments about the bus charges in Dublin and about Dublin having to subsidise transport elsewhere. If Dublin is comprised of the people from the various counties, who are attracted by the bright lights here, and are taking part in what is a worldwide cult at the moment, of leaving the rural areas and going to the cities, where there is transport and all the amenities they expect to have, they cannot expect to acquire them at the expense of rural Ireland.

Mr. Coogan

And the Beatles.

Mr. J. Brennan

If they are to prosper and have these benefits, then at least we must expect that they will pay for them. There were complaints today about the price of meat but our farmers have to sell the beef. Thank God, they get a better price today than they ever got before. We do not want the industrialised areas complaining because they have to pay more for their beef. The farmers are doing well. If the people prefer to rush into the industrialised centres, then they should be prepared to pay the rural areas for what they produce. That is one angle on that.

I rose to say only a few words on this question of decentralisation. I know the difficulties connected with it. They are not easy to overcome. You cannot just tell any industrialist who comes along: "You will get a grant but you must go to a particular town." This whole question of siting factories and locating industries is a difficult problem. If we site a factory in one village, the neighbouring village is not satisfied. They must get one, too. It would require a factory in every village and town in Ireland. Even that would not satisfy everybody.

The rising standards of living, which are more and more affecting the uneconomic holders on the western seaboard, are tending to a greater amount of surplus labour in those areas. Every improvement in the standards of living makes it more difficult for the uneconomic holder to maintain any decent standard. That means a greater surplus labour in those areas, which is being absorbed to a great extent by our own towns at the moment. It would be much more desirable if the industries could be brought to the areas where labour is available. That is one of the things which the western seaboard has to offer as against the cities.

This matter has been mentioned by some Deputies who referred to the town development committees which are advertising free sites and all facilities and amenities. There is in every town an active development committee offering a free site for a factory; yet you will get many concerns who would prefer to come in and pay £17,000 or £18,000 for a site in an industrial area rather than go to the area where these sites would be available for much less, and in fact, in many cases, free. That is only natural. It is one of the problems we will always have to face. But there are quite a number of industries which are suited to the western seaboard and the more of them that can be pushed out in that direction, the better will it be for the general position of industry in the country as a whole.

I want to say, in conclusion, we have reached a stage which, at one time, we would have been very happy to visualise. I remember the days when we first went into the manufacture of particular goods and the shopkeepers sold them with an apology. They said: "All we can give you now is stuff made in Ireland. It is not much good but it is the best we can do. If we buy other goods, we have to pay a high tariff". There was a hard core of people who, for patriotic reasons, were prepared to stand over, and advocate, the sale of Irish goods, but they were in the minority for a very long time. That day has passed and we have reached the stage now where we are able to go to other countries and buy our own goods, which are superior to those produced in those which, for a long time, have been industrialised and have been held up as paragons of manufacturing perfection. I congratulate the Minister on his short introductory speech, which is full of hope for the future and is most encouraging for every Deputy.

Mr. Coogan

I should like to remind the party opposite that we did not condemn. We were constructive in our criticism and have always been so. Let me remind those on the opposite benches of what they once called "white elephants" when they were established in this country. Mind you, the greatest compliment they could pay to this side of the House is to continue to establish a lot more of those white elephants. Elephants never forget and we are not going to let the Minister forget either.

I compliment the Minister on continuing, and accepting, the policy, as outlined and introduced by Deputy Sweetman, when as Minister for Finance, he introduced the incentives for the establishment of industries here in 1956. I can bear out that since these incentives were given in my own town, industries have been established. I have seen some of these industries, in places throughout this country, opened with a flourish and big promises and big contributions by the State. I should like to know what the Minister intends to do about these promises. They are something like the election promises, which I heard in Cork, that the industries were to give employment to 700 in places where only 200 are employed. Mind you, some of the Ministers were at the same table and broke bread with those people. They enjoyed the headlines which appeared in the Irish Press—the hundreds which were to be employed in all those industries. I can give the Minister more details of this later.

Mr. J. Lynch

Let us have them now and we shall see what he has to say.

Mr. Coogan

The Minister will get them in due course. I do not think the Ceann Comhairle would allow me to go into it now and if I did, the Minister might be sorry. The danger I see in foreign-based industries is that the parent industry will only give surplus orders to their firm in this country. Is it not true that if there is a recession, the first to suffer will be the Irish-based industries? Will the Minister say otherwise? I take it his silence is the answer.

I think greater grants and incentives should be given to old established local industries and that would go a long way towards helping to increase our industrial output. Let us not depend too much on foreigners. It is bad enough to have them buying land from under our feet without controlling our paypackets as well. We have many of these so-called factories. I see them around. They just employ little girls of 14, who leave school, and as soon as they reach 16 they are dismissed. Something should be done about giving grants to these people. This type of child labour should be stamped out.

Mr. J. Lynch

When the Deputy makes such general charges, could he indicate where these factories are——

Mr. Coogan

Let the Minister go down to Shannon and not fly out but stay for a while.

Mr. J. Lynch

I am waiting for the Deputy to tell me about them.

Mr. Coogan

I should not have to tell the Minister. Shame on him for asking me.

Mr. J. Lynch

The Deputy is making general charges and he cannot stand over one of them.

Mr. Dolan

Where are they? Name one of them.

Mr. Coogan

Go down to Shannon.

Mr. Davern

The Deputy will not see rabbits playing leapfrog there anyway.

Mr. Coogan

You cannot see the wood for the trees. These factories employ only children——

Mr. J. Lynch

Where are they?

Mr. Coogan

Surely the Minister is not repeating that? Perhaps the Press would take it down and they would tell him very quickly.

Mr. Dolan

You tell us.

Mr. Coogan

I know them.

Mr. Dolan

Why do you not name one of them?

Mr. Coogan

You can go down to Shannon and stay around a while.

Mr. Davern

The Deputy was down there and was glad to go there.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Coogan

We have teenage emigration which is stimulated by this type of factory. Unfortunate girls save their fares and rig themselves out to join their sisters who have gone before them. A stop should be put to this type of industry.

Mr. Dolan

That is the old story from Fine Gael.

Mr. Coogan

You cannot deny it. It is about time a living wage was paid to these unfortunates. I suppose you will say they will get 12 per cent but I want to remind you that there are another 2½ years before they can get anything more. In the meantime, the Minister is not making a standstill order in regard to the price of food and the cost of living but he has a standstill on the 12 per cent and for the next two years, the workers may not ask for another penny.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise.

Mr. Coogan

It arises in so far as the unfortunate people who have got the 12 per cent increase find that everything is going up day after day and the Minister is responsible.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise.

Mr. Coogan

If that is the type of industrialisation that is to take place, we do not want it. I am not condemning all industries but the type which employs child labour.

Mr. J. Lynch

Name them, so that I can be on the lookout for them.

Mr. Coogan

I shall name them at the right time. Shame on the Minister that he has to ask me. All he has to do is to look around, look at the emigrant ships and ask the girls going away where they got the fare and he will find it was from one of these sweatshops.

Mr. Davern

They exist only in the vivid imagination of the Deputy.

Mr. Dolan

Name one of them.

Mr. Coogan

I shall leave it to Deputy Davern.

Mr. Davern

We have listened to the diatribe from the Deputy from Galway and it is obvious that he has not the vaguest notion of what he is talking about. I have been in hundreds of industries and I do not think any fair-minded man could possibly describe them as sweatshops.

Mr. Coogan

Excuse me; I did not condemn all industries.

Mr. Davern

That is an old slander on Irish industry. I have heard it a million times. We should be very proud of our people who have invested their money in Irish industry and I am certain that they have as good a sense of fair play and decency and honesty as they have of efficiency. If Deputy Coogan looks up the statistics, he will find our industrialists compare favourably with any others in Europe as employers or as decent men giving good living conditions. Sending out a slander like that on our own country to the four ends of the earth is damnable and inexcusable and Deputy Coogan should be ashamed of himself.

Mr. Coogan

Not a bit. Do not try to live it down.

Mr. Davern

Every attempt is being made to decry Irish industrialists who put money into this country instead of into foreign organisations or Klondykes abroad. Our industrialists deserve the highest and greatest praise we can give them. Deputy Coogan's type of slander does infinite harm to our prospects of industrial revival.

A few years ago, there were no industries here when Fianna Fáil courageously tackled the Herculean task. I have often thought that the Taoiseach, if he never did anything else but revive Irish industries, had accomplished an enormous task that would give him a place of merit forever in the minds of the Irish people. I hope Deputy Coogan will learn sense. If he wants to make propaganda or desires political kudos, I hope he will find some other way instead of trying to smash our industries and insult those who have put money into them.

Mr. Coogan

If the cap fits them, let them wear it.

Mr. Davern

I have heard that old story many times. I congratulate the Minister on the magnificent job he has done. If Deputy Coogan or anybody else will take the trouble to look up the statistics, he will find that expansion in industry is something to be noted, and not alone noted, but to be proud of. The Minister has given us very good service and anybody who approaches him will meet one of nature's gentlemen who will guide them as far as he possibly can and help and encourage them to invest more money in Irish industry.

No investment I know is as safe as Irish industry today. Thank God for that. The country was as denuded of industry at one time as it was of forests and of course, this affected the national economy to a very great extent. I should like to draw the Minister's attention and that of the Industrial Development Authority to one simple matter concerning the undeveloped areas. Deputy Coogan comes from such an area. They benefit very substantially but other areas that richly deserve consideration are not covered by the Undeveloped Areas Act. I would suggest to the Minister that at this stage he should extend the provisions of the Undeveloped Areas Act to every other part of the country where industries are needed and especially would I ask him to consider towns like Tipperary, Fethard, Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir. These are towns that in former days got good business because there were army garrisons in them but now they have no substitute. There are many such places in South Tipperary and West Waterford and I would ask the Industrial Development Authority to give more consideration to them.

I would ask especially on behalf of Tipperary town that gave so much in the fight for independence. No fewer than 85 of my comrades gave their lives, many houses were burned and hundreds were jailed, all for the industrial revival in this country because these men did not die for a name. They died for something else because they knew that this country needed industries if it was going to keep its people. Some of them lie buried in quick-lime and some of them are buried in Tipperary town itself but I would ask the Minister to think of the sacrifices they made and give Tipperary town the wherewithal to keep its population. There is one industry there which is quite good but it is not able to give employment to all the people.

Mr. Coogan

Many of them are singing: "It's a long way to Tipperary".

Mr. Davern

I never like to hear that doggerel mentioned because it was sung by people who were wearing a uniform that was not worn in the interests of this country. In many other of our towns, we now have industries giving good employment and good conditions. We have to thank the Fianna Fáil Government for that and we decry any attempt to belittle that achievement. We hear from the Minister that there are prospects that in the near future new industries will rise in this country. We know that cannot happen overnight and we know there will have to be full investigation as to whether such industries are in the interests of the nation's economy. We know there are a few fly-by-nights but we also know that we gave them the knock on many occasions.

Mr. Coogan

We know a few that gave you the knock.

Mr. Davern

If you know so much, why do you not tell the Minister?

Mr. Coogan

I have told him. What about Portumna?

Mr. Davern

Deputy Coogan would seem to be the most knowledgeable Deputy in this House because he seems to have a definite idea about every industry in Ireland. How he has got around to them all, I do not know. I hope he will speak in a more friendly manner about Irish industry in future because Galway and the West of Ireland have got a reasonable share of industry.

Mr. Coogan

They got it under Deputy Sweetman's Act.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not entitled to interrupt.

Mr. Coogan

I was interrupted.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is persistently interrupting.

Mr. Coogan

I was interrupted and I did not get protection.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy continues to interrupt, he will find me exercising my authority. He is persistently interrupting and he had better cease.

Mr. Coogan

I was interrupted myself.

Mr. Davern

I wish to make a special appeal to the Minister for areas that have not yet received any benefit from the industrial revival. There is the town of Tallow in County Waterford which is a town with a good population. The town of Lismore is crying out for an industry and there they have a plentiful supply of water which would be very useful to industry. There is also the town of Cappoquin and these three towns are crying out to participate in the industrial revival. The people of these towns are sincere and honest people and if given an opportunity they would contribute to the industrial revival in no small way.

There are many items still imported by us which could be produced in this country. I am sure the Minister has these matters under examination frequently. I would ask him and the Industrial Development Authority to consider South Tipperary and West Waterford for the near future. We have been told that there is good land in these places. That is quite true but people are unemployed because of mechanisation and we must have industrial development to absorb that surplus. If we do not have industrial development, emigration will begin again in the next few years so that it all depends on the Minister and his Department whether we will ever again have an exodus. I am sure we will not because the Minister is following in the footsteps of his great predecessor, the Taoiseach, and I hope he will not allow my appeal to him to fall on deaf ears.

Mr. O'Connor

It is a tragedy to hear a Deputy try to belittle the efforts being made towards the industrialisation of our country, to belittle the efforts of Irish labour and to describe factories as sweatshops. Any industry in this country is far from being a sweatshop and no suggestions to that effect should be made.

My own country is a shining example of the results of the efforts by the Minister and the Government to increase employment through industrialisation. Within the past five years, we have established ten industries which employ 1,500 people and overall wages are over £5 million a year. Five million pounds had a very big impact on the financial position of Kerry and the people are very grateful for the opportunities they have received. The establishment of the Liebherr factory in Killarney is proof of the ability of any industry in this country, and of Irish labour, to meet competition from outside. The greater part of their steel requirements is imported from Glasgow. Sheffield and other parts of Britain, and is purchased at a higher price than the home price in Britain. It is brought to Killarney, manufactured into the finished product and exported again to Britain. They are also able to sell their product in many parts of the world.

Deputy Coogan referred to the employment of child labour. If he examined the labour position in most of these factories, he would get a picture of the employment system and of how people are started in employment. In the case of the Liebherr factory, many young lads are taken in as apprentices from 15 to 18. They are trained in all the operations necessary and during that period they receive £3 a week. After that, they go into full employment and on to the full scale of wages. I know three young lads, one of whom is getting £18 a week, the second, £21 and the third £30. The third lad is taken to Liverpool and to many other places to help erect the factory's cranes. Those are the people whom Deputy Coogan is endeavouring to decry and to say that their factories are sweatshops and to talk about the employment of child labour is all wrong. The young people must be trained somewhere and from what I know of those industries, youngsters must be put through a schooling period. I assume that is what Deputy Coogan is really referring to. If he is not, I cannot see any foundation in fact for the statement he made.

We have a further five projects under way in Kerry which will employ some 300 people at an estimated wage bill of £100,000. We have a further three in the offing, which we hope will also develop. This scheme of incentives to industrialists from outside to come into undeveloped areas is one of the best schemes we have developed. Increasing wages and better social conditions have to a large extent compelled people in the backward areas to leave their homes. If we can get industries into these areas so that they can get a little more money, they will be quite happy to remain in those areas and contribute whatever abilities they have to the good of the community at large.

I visited several German towns last September and I was amazed at the large number of industrialists who were interested in coming to this country. They all said that if we were in the Common Market, they would come immediately. Many of them thought that they could not wait until the Common Market was fully established and that they should come in any case. There are very many who are interested in coming and any statements made in this House should be guarded and tend towards inducing those people to come here. There are many light industries which would employ anything from 50 to 100 people and which would be ideally suited to our small villages and these should get every encouragement from every Deputy. We should all do our best to get them in here.

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to one matter. Some extra incentive should be given to attract those people to the Gaeltacht areas. They are the poorest and the most backward areas and the people in them are the hardest hit at present. Their numbers are rapidly dwindling because many of the younger people are getting out and the older people are being left. Some system of development within or near these areas is necessary and I would ask the Minister to devise a further incentive scheme to induce these people to go into such areas. Every natural resource that we have, particularly in those areas, should be developed.

The Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Brennan, referred to Bord na Móna. There is a considerable amount of employment being given in the Cahirciveen-Ballinskelligs area and it might be worthwhile trying to establish a briquette factory there. The country is looking for that type of material and it might be very well worthwhile to use up every possible bit of our natural resources.

Another industry that would be of immense value to the country, if properly developed, is the whiskey export industry. It is strange that with the large Irish population there is in the United States of America, our export of whiskey should have such little impact. Development of a whiskey export industry would have very beneficial reprcussions on our agricultural industry. If private enterprise is not prepared to expand, then the Government should set up a semi-State body to develop the whiskey industry. Some distilleries actually closed down in the past 20 years. That seems a pity, to say the least of it. Because of the impact on agriculture, any expansion of the whiskey industry would be of benefit to our people in general.

I congratulate the Minister on the very substantial grants to induce outside industrialists to establish themselves here. We have been very fortunate in my county and I hope we shall see many more of them coming in. We assure them of every facility. They are good employers, decent people and good mixers.

Deputy Coogan referred to promises made in Cork. I am rather amazed that anyone on the opposite benches should refer to Cork. The people there gave their decision in no uncertain terms. They indicated clearly the path they want the nation to tread. They indicated clearly that they want the nation to continue its forward march. I trust the Minister will accept—I am sure he will—the verdict of the people of Cork that industrialisation must be pushed ahead and employment found for all our people. Industrial development must be pushed to the maximum. We have only a short number of years, I think, befort industrial production all over the world reaches its peak. Deputy Coogan should re-examine the allegations he made about factories employing child labour and operating as sweatshops. He should make himself fully aware of the facts in the different industries. He should, above all, accept the advice of the people of Cork, so clearly indicated to him. I met Deputy Coogan in Cork. The people there have indicated that they want the nation to keep on the forward march and go ahead with the development of the country for the benefit of the people.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. J. Lynch)

It is possibly inevitable that in a debate like this, dealing with industry, Deputies' remarks should range over a very wide field. In many cases, as the Chair pointed out, some of the remarks were irrevelant. I do not blame Deputies for that, but, time is short, and I shall, therefore, try to keep myself to the matters strictly to be discussed in this Supplementary Estimate. They are two in number—the re-equipment and expansion grants and the industrial grants under the Industrial Grants Act. The purpose of the introduction of the Supplementary Estimate was because there was an underestimation of the amount required under those two headings. The Undeveloped Areas Act grants are not in question here at all. The money voted was found to be ample in the circumstances of that particular Act.

The Industrial Grants Act, as the House is aware, applies to what might be called the eastern half of the country, that part of the country outside the undeveloped areas. In the course of my reply I may refer to one or two matters outside the strict limits in order to answer points raised by Deputies. Deputy Cosgrave raised the point with regard to why the adaptation grants scheme would be in operation only up to 31st March, 1965. This scheme was introduced under the Industrial Grants Act, 1963, just a year ago, and I said at that time that the scheme would be short lived for two reasons—the first being in order to bring home to industrialists the need for urgency in availing of these grants and, secondly, in order to ensure that any improvements they would carry out would be fully effective by the time we could contemplate meeting the fuller impacts of freer trade.

In many cases it could take about two years from the time a grant is applied for under this adaptation and expansion scheme before the results of the application of the grant could be fully effective. If grants under this scheme extended beyond 1965, then it might be possible that the industries concerned would not have made themselves fully competitive in free trade conditions. That, therefore, is the reason for the urgency and for the limitation of the operation of this part of the Industrial Grants Act, 1963, to 31st March of next year.

Initially, I expressed my disappointment with the extent to which the Act was being availed of. There was, perhaps, an understandable falling off in view of the failure of the British application for membership of the Common Market. As a result of exhortations by the Government, and a realisation of the position by industrialists, the rate of applications for grants increased considerably in the meantime. The realisation was, of course, that, irrespective of our becoming a member of the European Economic Community, there was a very definite and accelerated movement towards freer trade within the EEC bloc, within EFTA and, indeed, throughout the world. It was realised that we could not isolate ourselves from this movement. We certainly could not insulate ourselves against the effects of the movement. It was important, therefore, and still is, for industrialists to take every step open to them to ensure that their methods of operation will be as efficient, and their products as competitive, as they can possibly make them in the intervening years.

I was very glad that Deputy Cosgrave mentioned, in a constructive and objective way, the suggestion that there was anything in our grants legislation especially favouring foreigners. I spoke at some length when I was introducing the 1963 Bills to the House, and before that too on a number of occasions, on this illusion, and it is only an illusion, and I gave particulars. I want to assure the House again that there is no notice outside the offices of An Foras Tionscal that says: "No Irish need apply". The figures I gave a year ago will indicate what the true position is and I would have hoped it would have been sufficient then to indicate to the Deputies who believe otherwise that Irish nationals are treated as well as, and I think we can claim better than, those people from other countries who come to An Foras Tionscal looking for industrial grants. I quote from columns 248-249, volume 203, of the Official Report of 28th May, 1963, where I said:

As at 31st December last, 67 grants had been approved under the Industrial Grants Act. The number of promotions sponsored by foreign promoters was 33 and by Irish promoters 28 and six projects had joint Irish and foreign participation.

That was roughly fifty-fifty. I continue the quotation:

Under the Undeveloped Areas Act, 123 grants were approved up to 31st December, 1962, the number of promotions sponsored by foreign promoters was 59; by Irish promoters, 58 and there were six projects with joint Irish and foreign participation.

These figures prove without equivocation that allegations to the effect that foreigners are favoured by An Foras Tionscal are completely unfounded. The pattern has continued in that way since then.

The next important relevant point raised was that by Deputy McQuillan when he asked whether the effect of the adaptation grants would be to reduce employment. As I told the House, I do not in any way decide these grant applications, nor do I influence them. I do, however, keep in touch with An Foras Tionscal in relation to all their grant decisions. I have been watching particularly adaptation grant decisions and in most cases the stated effect of the adaptation carried out by the company with the assistance of this grant and with their own capital investment as well has been actually to increase employment. In some cases, the effect was to maintain employment. The purpose of these grants is mainly to make these industries more competitive and the long-term effect of them will be to increase the employment given. There is no truth in the suggestion that the overall pattern will be to create a net reduction in employment. The contrary is the case.

Mr. McQuillan

If what the Minister says is true, it will not be necessary to have these grants from EEC made available in Ireland. The men are being kept in employment and in fact more have been employed?

Mr. J. Lynch

What I have just said does not in any way conflict with the effect of the reports of the Committee on Industrial Organisation. There were 26 individual industries surveyed and in many cases the Committee on Industrial Organisation said that, provided the industries concerned carried out the measures of adaptation and other measures that were recommended by the Committee, there was no reason why a reduction in employment should take place. The Committee on Industrial Organisation said that with the adaptation measures carried out, there was a possibility in some cases and even perhaps the likelihood in a few cases of a reduction in employment. What I have said is that as regards most of the cases where adaptation grants have been applied, the likelihood is that employment will be increased.

May I say in passing that the Deputy's reference to a firm in County Kildare as having applied for an adaptation grant which had the effect of reducing employment was dealt with by Deputy Briscoe in the House and I do not propose to pursue that? In any event I think it would do no service to our promotional programme in industry to discuss in detail in this House the activities of individual firms.

Mr. McQuillan

Has the position altered since Deputy Briscoe spoke in the House?

Mr. J. Lynch

I have no information that the effect of an adaptation grant in that industry was to reduce employment.

With regard to the question of directing industries to particular areas, that, too, was examined by the Committee on Industrial Organisation and they recommended that consideration be given to the establishment of industrial zones so that the inducements now being given by the Government could be given to industries establishing themselves within these areas. They did not recommend it as something that ought to be done but as something that ought to be examined. That is, of course, being examined, as was stated in the first publication on the Second Programme for Economic Expansion.

It is not an easy thing to direct industry to a particular place. The system we have at present is that the Government provide the inducements, create the climate in which industry can establish itself and thrive. It is for the promoters to select the area best suited to the success of their industry. Neither the Industrial Development Authority nor An Foras Tionscal direct people to particular areas. The contrary is also true, notwithstanding suggestions that are often made, that neither the Industrial Development Authority nor An Foras Tionscal divert people away from particular areas. No industrialist, coming to these bodies to discuss a project, in the first instance, and to apply for a grant, in the second instance, is influenced in any way by those bodies as to where they ought to set up their industry.

I want to assure Deputy O'Sullivan, who is not here now, that the policy of attracting foreign investments to this country was influenced in no way by the Industrial Grants Act of 1956. The concept of industrial grants was first introduced into our legislation in 1952 in the Undeveloped Areas Act. Immediately after and as a result of the passing of this Act, there came a number of inquiries from foreigners and later a number of investments by foreigners in Irish industry. The 1956 Industrial Grants Act simply applied the facilities of industrial grants to the other part of the country outside the undeveloped areas but limited the amount of the grant in each case to £50,000 and also to new industries. The Taoiseach criticised that Act at the time as not going far enough and the results of its operation proved he was right. The Industrial Grants Act has been amended twice since and the facilities given under it have been extended in many important respects.

I do not think there is much else of relevance to the debate that I have not mentioned. However, in relation to what Deputy Colley said about employing foreign architects, by and large, the grants given by An Foras Tionscal are availed of by industrialists who employ Irish contractors and Irish architects. In some cases they employ their own architects but they are encouraged by An Foras Tionscal in every way not only to employ Irish contractors and Irish professional personnel in the building industry but to use as far as possible Irish materials, and that has been the experience of An Foras Tionscal.

There was a mention of what we are doing in relation to re-employment, re-training, and redundancy. At present, a report from a committee set up to deal especially with that subject is being examined. When the proper time comes, action will be taken by the Government on the recommendations in that report.

I regret I have not had any more time to answer all the points raised by Deputies but I think I have answered the principal ones.

Vote put and agreed to.