This morning, Sir, I raised the matter of the allegation made by the Minister for Social Welfare yesterday against the Labour Party and I was under the impression that you were to give your judgment on the submission I made.
Minister's Statement: Complaint by Member.
Since the Deputy raised the matter this morning, I have had an opportunity of reading the portion of the typescript relevant to the incident and whilst I deprecate strongly the use of the word "liar" in the House in any context, as its use is not proper to decorum and order, as the epithet was not used against any particular individual member of the House, no action on my part is called for.
I must say that I cannot accept that and the Labour Party cannot accept it. If needs be, it will be submitted to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. Whilst the Minister for Social Welfare did not specifically name anybody, he said that the Labour Party are professional liars. In the past you have insisted that Deputies who used expressions like that would have to withdraw them and I am asking you now to call on the Minister for Social Welfare to withdraw the remark.
I have indicated that it was not directed at any particular member of the House.
Deputy Corish knows that that is not what I said.
The Minister said that the Labour Party were professional liars.
I did not.
That is what is reported in the newspapers and the Ceann Comhairle has confirmed that.
I did not say that.
I referred to the Labour Party's professional liar and perhaps it would have been better if I had called him the Sunday Independent——
(Interruptions.)
I cannot allow a discussion on this matter.
Do you realise, Sir, that you were included in that, in relation to the statement made and as published in the Press, that you, as a member of the Labour Party——
My position does not arise in this matter. I cannot allow further discussion. If Deputy Corish wishes to raise the matter, he can do it by motion.
I do not think the Chair should be allowed to get away with it like that.
Deputies
Chair, chair.
Keep out of this.
I am not being obstreperous. I do not know what the Minister for Social Welfare meant or to whom he referred. Let him do that here or in some other place, but the records of this House show the Minister for Social Welfare as having alleged or as stating that the Labour Party are professional liars.
Including the Ceann Comhairle.
I am asking you, Sir, to call on him——
The Deputy submitted a matter to me this morning. I have examined it carefully and I have given my view that it was not directed against any individual of the House. I cannot allow it to be discussed in this manner. There is nothing before the House and if the Deputy wishes to raise this matter, he must put down a motion. I may say that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges do not control the decisions of the Chair.
The reference I made was to an individual employed by the Sunday Independent to invent scurrillous stories.
That is a matter between the Minister, the Sunday Independent and the writer.
(Interruptions.)
The reference was to a gentleman paid to invent scurrillous ——
Why do you not withdraw?
That is what I said.
The Ceann Comhairle said he has investigated this matter. Would the Ceann Comhairle tell the House what statement by the Minister for Social Welfare appears in the records?
I have given my decision on the matter submitted to me. If the Deputy disagrees with my decision, he will have to take the matter to the House.
Surely it is not unreasonable to ask the Chair to tell us what appears in the report?
May I intervene?
To make things worse.
I think Deputy Corish is attempting to establish a new principle here, that the Chair, who is the controller of order and the enforcer of discipline, is to be made responsible by way of question and answer to any Deputy for the rulings which he gives here. I think we have been treated to a most disgraceful exhibition here.
What about yesterday?
Deputy Corish has said that he proposes to take this matter to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. That is the proper thing to do. There is obviously a conflict, and a very stark conflict, as to what in fact the Minister said.
What is in the report?
I did not hear him say the words which Deputy Corish alleges he said.
I cannot allow this matter to be discussed further. If Deputy Corish wishes to take this matter further, he may do so by means of a motion.
Therefore we are entitled to describe the Government as a block of professional liars?
I did not say that.
Mr. Ryan
On a point of order, I am not referring to anything that happened yesterday. I am speaking about a reference made by the Minister for Social Welfare within the past few minutes to a person who is not in this House and whom he called a professional liar. I suggest that that is an abuse of the privileges of the House as the person is not in a position to defend himself.
I am ruling that this matter is closed, unless Deputy Corish wishes to raise it formally by motion.
So that we can call groups liars.
Mr. Ryan
And individuals outside the House who cannot defend themselves here.
(Interruptions.)
It was used last night on Today In The Dáil and it received plenty of publicity.
Has any Deputy the right to call the Ceann Comhairle a professional liar?
No one did.
It is on the records.
(Interruptions.)
All out of step but yourself.
Deputy Ryan could try to test it constitutionally.