Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 16 Jun 1964

Vol. 211 No. 1

Adjournment Debate. - Callan (Kilkenny) Garda Station.

Mr. Crotty

I regret very much that I should have occasion to bring the Minister for Justice into the House at this late hour to hear what I have to say, but I would not be doing my duty if I did not raise this question on the Adjournment.

I have received a deputation from a very responsible body, the Irish Countrywomen's Association in County Kilkenny, who, on learning that the Garda district headquarters at Callan was being changed to a district station felt that this change was not warranted, especially at the present time. They represented that the town of Callan is an important town in Kilkenny and that its size warrants a Garda District headquarters, which it has had since the foundation of the State. The Irish Countrywomen's Association feel that there will not be the same police protection as there has been down the years if this change is made. It has been stated in the debate on the Minister's Estimate that crime has been increasing in the country. The only way to combat that is to have an adequate police force.

Callan also is situated on the road to Cork at a very busy junction. As I mentioned in a supplementary question, in recent times a move was made to start a food processing industry in Callan. Great credit is due to the people of Callan and the surrounding areas for their fine response to the appeal that went out to them at that time. They felt if they could get a food processing plant going in conjunction with the Irish Sugar Company, they would be doing a lot of good for their native town. People in such a town have a pride in it, just as people in large cities have, and like to see it going ahead. They feel that this move by the Minister for Justice is reducing the status of the town.

I have no fault to find with the Commissioner in having put this proposal to the Minister. After all, that is his job. He must find the most efficient service, and what he considers, from the point of view of efficient administration, the best service. The Minister for Justice is the man who comes between, if you like, the official view and the ordinary people. I feel, and the people of Callan feel, that the Minister should be very slow to give his approval to this move. The Commissioner may have been asked for his observations, but we feel the responsibility lies on our Minister for Justice to see that these towns are maintained and that the Garda stations are maintained as they have been for the past number of years.

It is peculiar that within the past year the Post Office authorities wanted to purchase a site for a new post office in Callan and, instead of going ahead with it and building a new post office, it was changed again to a sub-post office. The Government should lead the people when they are anxious to improve their own towns, if the Government have the good of the people at heart. We hear a lot of talk about decentralisation of private industry, and a lot said about the flight from the land. The suggestion was that industries would be established where the people were inclined to leave the land. The town of Callan has not got the benefit of that. The opposite is happening in Callan, and instead of decentralisation, the stations are being centralised at the expense of Callan.

The Minister in his reply on the Estimate said that the Garda were to be increased by 100 in the coming year. The people down the country hear that the Garda are to be increased and, at the same time, the force in the town of Callan being decreased. In his reply to my question, the Minister said that this was being done in the interests of economy of manpower and economy in general, and he wanted to know whether I wished to waste money. It is very debatable where economy comes in—where it starts and where it finishes.

Five years ago, the Government thought they would start economy on CIE and would bring CIE to the point of paying its way. After five years, they discovered that did not happen, and the Minister for Transport and Power introducing a Bill recently asking for £2 million a year to subsidise the railways, stated he was sorry the Government made a mistake in the original estimates. Instead of making CIE a paying proposition, or at least breaking even, they started closing the lines. There are now 691 miles of lines closed without any hope of return. If the Minister for Transport and Power took that line of action in the interests of economy, I feel the Minister for Justice should have a second look at this matter of the Garda station in Callan before coming to a decision. It can be proved by figures that there is an economy of manpower but, if there is a small economy, it is a false one.

I do not wish to delay the Minister now, but I would ask him to reconsider his decision. The people feel that this is a first step towards reducing further the status of Callan. Throughout County Kilkenny, several stations have been closed during the past few years, and the people feel that the station at Callan should be maintained. I have been asked by a deputation to bring this matter before the Minister to review the decision he has already taken and maintain the status quo in Callan. I was asked the other day whether I wanted the quarters in Callan or Thomastown. I did not raise that question at all. What I did say was that Callan should be maintained, and as Thomastown was there, it also should be maintained.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Haughey)

I should like to thank Deputy Crotty for his courtesy last week in agreeing to leave this matter over when he was entitled to have me replying on the adjournment. It was anticipated that I might be in the Seanad and Deputy Crotty kindly agreed to facilitate me and left this discussion over until this week when I would be available.

I do not suppose any Minister likes to be brought up on the Adjournment. Apart from the fact that it keeps him here late at night, it is to some extent a reflection on the administration of his Department. On this occasion my reluctance to being detained was overcome by the fact that I was intrigued to know what line of argument Deputy Crotty would put up in support of his contention. I thought, when I replied to his supplementary question when this matter was brought up at Question Time last week, that I had made the situation sufficiently clear and that I might possibly have satisfied him with regard to it.

It is important, a Cheann Comhairle, that I should make it clear at the outset that there are two separate and distinct matters involved here: One has to do with the actual policing of towns and areas throughout the country and the other is the administrative structure of the police force as such.

If Deputy Crotty, or any other Deputy wishes to come here and discuss with me the policing of a particular area, having regard to the population of the area, the size or the existence of crime in the area, or trends and developments about which he might happen to be worried at any particular time, that is something I would seriously have to discuss with the Deputy concerned. Nothing of that nature is concerned here. What we are concerned with here is the administrative structure of the force, and the Commissioner's proposal to me that two separate Garda districts be amalgamated, Thomastown and Callan. In each of these two Garda districts, we have six stations. Between the two districts we have 12 Garda stations.

By any modern standard you wish to apply, that is uneconomic. It is ridiculous to have a superintendent and his district clerk looking after six stations. The Commissioner's proposals involved amalgamating these two districts—a hiving of three stations and leaving a total of nine stations under the control of one superintendent. This is a reasonable economic unit from the administrative point of view.

To have two superintendents and their clerks administering two districts of six stations each is sheer waste of taxpayers' money and something we cannot tolerate. Therefore, the Commissioner very rightly—in pursuance of his duty and his obligation to the Force, to the taxpayer and to the Oireachtas—decided that they should be amalgamated. Then his problem was to decide which should be the new district headquarters.

From the geography of the new amalgamated district, it was clear that Thomastown should be the new district headquarters. That is all that is involved here. There is no question whatever at this point of any reduction in the number of the Force available to carry out police duties in Callan. What is happening is that as a result of the amalgamation the administrative unit will be moved out of Callan which will become part of the new district with headquarters in Thomastown which will now combine——

Mr. Crotty

The patrol car will also be——

Mr. Haughey

That is more apparent than real. There will still be a district car for the combined district.

Mr. Crotty

There are two cars, one in Thomastown and one in Callan.

Mr. Haughey

I am talking about the district car at the moment. It will now be based on Thomastown as the district car but, in effect, it will be available for the amalgamated district as a whole.

From the police point of view there is no argument whatever against this move. In fact, there is everything to be said for it. It is a rationalisation. It will lead to greater economy in the use of manpower. It will bring about a saving to public funds and it is desirable from every other point of view in that regard. The only thing we can be criticised for is whether, by doing this, we are reducing in any way the status of Callan as a town or a city.

I know as well as Deputy Crotty knows that Callan at one time was the most important town in the county of Kilkenny. Indeed, I hope we will not ruffle any feelings if we recall that at one time it was almost certainly a bigger and more important town than the city of Kilkenny itself.

Mr. Crotty

I have not heard that.

Mr. Haughey

This is historically accurate.

Mr. Crotty

It is not.

Mr. Haughey

I hope that at some time the town of Callan will succeed in re-establishing its former preeminence. However, I doubt if the status of the town or its economic development or its prestige will in any way be affected by the presence or absence in the town of a Garda district headquarters consisting of a superintendent and his clerk. I am almost certain that if one asked the average man in the street in Callan, Thomastown or any of the surrounding towns or villages the whereabouts of the local Garda headquarters he could not tell it.

Mr. Crotty

I would not agree with the Minister there.

Mr. Haughey

Perhaps we might get an opportunity of putting it to the test. I want seriously to suggest that this is not in any way degrading Callan in either its status, position or prestige. It is a simple administrative change in the structure of the Garda Síochána.

I want to give this undertaking to Deputy Crotty. If he would like to say to me now or at any stage in the future that the strength of the Garda Síochána in Callan is not sufficient properly to police the area, then I shall have a serious discussion with him and will listen to anything he has to say. If he can persuade me, I shall be very happy, indeed, to strengthen the numbers of the Force in the town with a view to ensuring that the town and the surrounding area is properly policed. This is something real and something to which I must have regard.

When I am simply acceding to the wishes of the Commissioner in bringing about a more efficient administrative structure in the Waterford-Kilkenny division, then I think Deputy Crotty cannot really quarrel with me, particularly when there is no question of its reflecting in any way on the status or prestige of Callan or in any way affecting its economic or social development.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.50 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 17th June, 1964.