Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Nov 1964

Vol. 212 No. 7

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Civil Service Examinations.

12.

Mr. Ryan

asked the Minister for Finance if, having regard to the refusal of the Civil Service Commissioners to discuss with an examinee the irregularities they suspect him of having committed in a 1963 examination, until such time as he received notice of the results of his 1964 examination, he will take steps, including the introduction of such legislation as may be necessary, to oblige the Civil Service Commissioners to furnish examinees with full information of their alleged irregularities in one examination, without awaiting the result of a subsequent examination.

13.

Mr. Ryan

asked the Minister for Finance if, having regard to the failure of the Civil Service Commissioners to communicate to a person (details supplied) the nature of alleged irregularities in two examinations, thereby depriving him of an opportunity to answer the allegations, he will take steps, including the introduction of such legislation as may be necessary, to make it mandatory on the Commissioners to give to persons concerned full details of the irregularities they are suspected of having committed.

Dr. Ryan

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 12 and 13 together.

I would refer the Deputy to the reply given to questions addressed by him on 5th February, 1964.

I am not empowered to intervene in relation to the discharge by the Civil Service Commissioners by their statutory functions. I am not prepared to initiate legislation to alter a system which has worked satisfactorily over the years.

Mr. Ryan

Having regard to the fact that while the Commissioners had not previously done wrong, they may have done wrong in this case, would the Minister not agree that it is a matter of elementary justice that any person suspected of committing a wrong should be notified of what he is suspected of having done before he is punished? Having regard to the fact that these suspicions of the Commissioners have prevented a person getting a pass in two examinations, is it not proper that he should take remedial steps to ensure that he is given full details of the matter in order that he may be in a position to defend himself?

Dr. Ryan

I informed the Deputy on 29th January last that it was proposed to interview the candidate in this particular case, but when the Deputy put down the question the interview was deferred until the question was answered. Nothing further was heard from the Deputy until 6th October, and by that time another examination had just concluded and the Commissioners were awaiting the result. That result has now come through and the Commissioners are prepared to see the candidate at any time.

Mr. Ryan

Does the Minister recollect telling the House last February that the candidate in question would be given an opportunity by the Commissioners to hear what was being alleged against him?

Dr. Ryan

That is right.

Mr. Ryan

And that subsequently the Commissioners—and up to this date—have not communicated with the candidate in question but have assumed that a person whose injustice is raised in this House has no right to be communicated with by them? Will the Minister state now why the Commissioners did not communicate with the candidate and tell him they were presenting him with an opportunity to come and meet them to discuss the matter?

Dr. Ryan

As I said, the Commissioners stated at the time that they were deferring the interview with this man until the question raised by the Deputy in the Dáil had been resolved and they had not heard from the candidate since.

Mr. Ryan

Is it not a fact that the candidate asked to be told what was being alleged against him, that after asking that, the matter was raised in this House by me and that subsequently the Commissioners have never communicated with the person concerned, not even to this day, and have never told him what was alleged against him in respect of this examination?

Dr. Ryan

They are quite prepared to tell him at any time if he goes to see them.

Mr. T. Lynch

Is it not quite obvious that the Commissioners objected to the matter being raised here and that they want to crucify this man because he went to his Deputy?

Dr. Ryan

I have no power in this matter. I am only giving the facts. An Act was passed by the Deputy's Government in 1956 with the provisions of which I agree. I am following those conditions and I cannot help it if there is——

Mr. Ryan

You can legislate when the Commissioners abuse their privileges.

(Interruptions.)

Dr. Ryan

If they have abused them.

Mr. Ryan

Surely they have when they will not tell a man what is against him in respect of this examination. This man has been destroyed in his fortune, future and reputation because the Commissioners have suspected he has committed certain irregularities. They have never notified him of what these irregularities were, although in one case the examination was held two years ago and in another one year ago, and the man has been compelled to enter for the same examination for the third time because they will not tell him what is alleged against him.

Dr. Ryan

I do not accept anything the Deputy has said.

Mr. Ryan

But the Minister has accepted it: they have not told him.

Dr. Ryan

And that part of it is true.

Mr. Ryan

So is the first part.

Mr. T. Lynch

And it is also true that the Minister said the man would be communicated with——

Dr. Ryan

I did not say that: I said they were prepared to tell him at any time if he would go and ask them.

Mr. Ryan

Why should he? Since when has it been established that a person suspected of doing wrong should go and beg the person who suspects him to say what it is?

(Interruptions.)

Dr. Ryan

Is he not the most interested person?

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Ryan

The Commissioners have an obligation to do certain things in a certain way and surely they should do them in that way.