Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Feb 1965

Vol. 214 No. 1

Private Members' Business. - Mines and Quarries Bill, 1964: Committee Stage (Resumed).

Debate resumed on amendment No. 16:

In subsection (2), page 48, lines 13 and 14, to delete all words after "than" and to insert the following "seven and one half hours during any five consecutive twenty four hours and for more than four hours on the sixth consecutive period of twenty four hours."—(Deputy Pattison.)

Mr. Pattison

I had almost completed my remarks when progress was reported, but I should like to point out again that our main objection to subsection (2) is that it lays down provisions which were regarded as out of date in my part of the country over 30 years ago. Coal miners in that area have enjoyed a 7½-hour day during the past 30 years.

The Minister may point out that this section does not worsen the conditions of any of those workers but the fact remains that we are passing legislation in 1965 which in effect could mean a 48-hour week. Still, I understand from subsection (10) that the Minister may by regulation shorten the number of hours. In what circumstances may he make these regulations? Subsection (2) provides for a maximum of eight hours per day. It has been proved by experience—for instance, in the case of the Agricultural Wages Board—that the minimum wage is often regarded as the standard wage. The same can apply here in regard to working hours—eight hours in a consecutive period of 24 hours may come to be regarded as the standard, set, may I emphasise, by legislation passed in this year of 1965. Under the Conditions of Employment Act, coal miners are not entitled to a weekly half-day. That point, also, should serve to sustain this amendment.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. J. Lynch)

The eight hours provided for in subsection (2) is the maximum number of hours a miner may be underground for the purpose of his work and of going to and from his work. It was prescribed, first of all, for health reasons that no man should be underground for more than eight out of a consecutive period of 24 hours. It is being regarded as a standard which does not by any means prescribe how long a working day should be. The length of a working day is a matter for negotiation between the workers and the employers. Therefore, the fact that eight hours is the maximum prescribed here does not preclude a lesser period.

The Deputy asked if subsection (10) enabled me, through regulation, to prescribe a period of less than eight hours. The answer is yes, but the need for that, from the health point of view, is not apparent and need not be considered at this stage. Therefore, I suggest the amendment is unnecessary. The eight-hour maximum is regarded as a safe period during which men may be underground in mines. If it is possible for them to negotiate a shorter period than that, then this section does not inhibit their claim.

Mr. Corish

The eight-hour period does not include going to and coming from the mine head.

Mr. J. Lynch

Once he gets into the mine shaft, he is underground for the purposes of this subsection.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Pattison is mistaken if he thinks this is legislating for an eight-hour day. We are legislating that a miner may not be underground for more than eight hours. It is from the time he enters the mine. Getting ready, equipping himself for going down, is not included in the eight hours. This includes only the period while he proceeds from the bottom of the shaft to the face of the coalmine. It approaches much nearer eight and a half hours than eight.

Mr. Tully

The Minister says there is nothing in the subsection to stop negotiations aimed at having the number of hours reduced, but we should not forget that if, in 1965, this House lays down an eight-hour period underground, there is no point, in 1965, in going to the Labour Court asking them to reduce the number of hours, because they will be very quick to point out that legislation has laid down eight hours.

Mr. J. Lynch

The Deputy must rely on the intelligence of the Labour Court to recognise what the sections mean.

Mr. Tully

Or on the intelligence of Members of this House to realise that something is laid down as a standard. The Labour Court will be extremely reluctant to get away from that. Then, we have Deputy Dillon's argument.

Mr. J. Lynch

If that argument is used, the same argument could be used against Deputy Pattison. If 7½ hours should be regarded as a standard and if the workers ultimately move, as they might in the course of time, for a 5-day week——

Mr. Tully

The Minister must not forget that he said "in the course of time". We are talking about now.

Mr. Corish

We are talking about the status quo, which appears to be a 7½-hour day.

Mr. J. Lynch

The status quo is eight hours.

Mr. Pattison

It has been 7½ for 30 years.

Mr. J. Lynch

Not in other parts of the country.

Mr. Tully

Will the Minister look at it again?

Mr. J. Lynch

It is not necessary. We must give freedom of movement to the trade unions and the employers.

Mr. Corish

Is the Minister telling us that in other mines the underground period is more than 7½ hours?

Mr. J. Lynch

I believe it is eight hours.

Mr. Corish

Subsection (10) states that the Minister may by regulation substitute a shorter period for the period provided in subsection (2). In what circumstances may he invoke subsection (10)?

Mr. J. Lynch

If, for example, an international Convention to which we subscribe provides for a lower maximum than eight hours, then I shall be free under regulation to amend the present period.

Mr. Tully

If, under a national trade union agreement, a 7½-hour period were regarded as the maximum, would the Minister then invoke subsection (10)?

Mr. J. Lynch

I could.

Mr. Tully

The Minister must be fair to the trade unions.

Mr. J. Lynch

We have a fairly good reputation for complying with international Conventions. We are high on the list for compliance with International Labour Organisation Conventions.

Mr. Pattison

Would the Minister have a look at the subsection and see if he could legalise the position in regard to a weekly half-day?

Mr. J. Lynch

There is no question of legalising. If miners work a half-day in any day, that provides for their being underground for only four hours instead of eight hours. It is possible for them to negotiate within the section.

Mr. Corish

The Bill does not specify that they may not be underground for more than four hours.

Mr. J. Lynch

You have a maximum and any lesser period is permissible.

Mr. Tully

The Minister is not doing anything to influence matters.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 17:

In page 49, between lines 11 and 12, to insert a new subsection as follows:—

"() Regulations may provide that this section shall, with such exceptions, modifications and adaptations as may be prescribed, apply to any other class of mine."

Amendment agreed to.

Section 112, as amended, agreed to.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.