Deputy Vivion de Valera gave notice that he would raise on the motion for the Adjournment the subject matter of the first part of Question No. 65 on today's Order Paper.
Adjournment Debate. - Stabbing Incidents.
My purpose in raising this matter on the Adjournment is to clear a certain misconception that may be there. I have not had an opportunity of seeing it in the Official Report as yet but listening to the Minister's reply to the question, I was afraid that these questions which some of us are asking may be interpreted as being critical of the Garda and of the administration of justice in regard to stabbing incidents. There is some ground for apprehension. Some time ago, for instance, I asked a question in regard to the stabbing of a guard in the constituency for which I am a representative. It happened that the same guard, apparently, was involved in some other incident afterwards, the subject actually of questions which I think will appear on the Order Paper tomorrow.
The point I want to make, and I think it is important to make it at this stage, is that these questions are not being asked in any spirit of criticism of the Garda individually or of the authorities, for their control of the crime situation as it is but rather to bring out the point that moral support as well as any practical support that the public and the State can give the Garda are essential at the present moment.
Primarily the thing that activated me in raising this question was the protection of the officers of the law themselves in this matter but also the wider issue in connection with the particular type of crime of violence, personal violence, within the scope of the question being allowed by you, Sir, tonight. Insofar as the general problem is concerned, within the scope allowed, this question arises: whether there is not a tendency at the present moment amongst young people, or younger people, towards a certain type of crime and, if there is, what assistance can be given to the Garda in combatting this type of crime. That is the problem and it is in that kind of perspective that I should like to have the matter examined.
It is a difficult one. Having regard to the Minister's answer today, the control of the weapons concerned is extremely difficult and insofar as it might involve legislation it is not within the scope of what can be said here tonight. Insofar as the problem has to be dealt with, it is a matter of policing and it is a type of crime which brings police officers themselves into peculiar danger, and therefore, we here should express the necessary support and encouragement for the Minister and the Garda authorities to do what is necessary to cope with this type of crime and to take whatever extraordinary action may be necessary.
In saying that, I want to say, as I said at the beginning, that it is in the spirit of acknowledging the good work that the Garda Síochána are doing and acknowledging the record which the Minister has given to the House in regard to crime. There is no element of criticism or suggestion that the detection rate or the policing is deficient. What we do want to say is that there is a tendency for a particular crime problem to arise and that is not the fault of any law-abiding person, still less the fault of the officers of the law.
I may slightly differ in opinion, from the information I have, shall I say, from the general public opinion, that there is, perhaps, a little bit more to the problem of this crime than perhaps some people would admit. But, whether there is or not, I think it is only right to say that some people think that there is, that a number of people outside believe that this type of crime may grow to the point where, perhaps, it could be a serious problem. If that is not so, a reassurance by the Minister to that effect is desirable, and if by raising the matter and getting that reassurance, things are kept in perspective, I think we are contributing.
I do not want to delay the House and the Minister any further tonight but I do want again, in conclusion, to make this very definite point that it is in the spirit of calling for more resources for the Garda that we raise these questions. I should like to encourage any giving of equipment that the Garda need even if it involves more cost, the providing of facilities and of sufficient numbers to enable them to carry out what is a difficult job. To go further would mean repeating a number of things I said on the Minister's Estimate recently but, from that point of view, I should like the Minister to feel that any questions that are asked in this regard are asked in that spirit and that there is no implied criticism whatever of the performance of the Garda in regard to crime which, I think, having regard to their numbers and their resources and the general situation has been a very good one.
In fact, the public have a great feeling of confidence in the Garda, particularly recently. The behaviour of the younger men who have now been integrated into the Force and the general attitude of the police authorities and their tactful and still firm handling of the number of problems in regard to which they come in contact with the public is being appreciated and I should not like to think that any question we would ask here would tend to have any other construction than the one which we seek to put on it.
Deputy Ryan rose.
Perhaps I should tell the Deputy that I am allowing only the first portion of the question, which is,
To ask the Minister for Justice if he has yet concluded his examination of the number of stabbing incidents; ...
The other portion of the question would require legislation and I am not allowing it—only the first portion. So the Deputy will confine his remarks to the first portion.
Thank you, Sir. My attention has been drawn to the sale of combs with stiletto-type or knife-like handles and my information is that a number of these have been used in recent incidents. I think it is common case that the number of crimes will be reduced according as the means to commit them are reduced and it would, therefore, be interesting to know what steps, if any, the Minister may have taken or the authorities may have taken to reduce the availability of these particular instruments.
The remarks that have been made in this House and the questions which have been raised in this House, certainly from the Fine Gael side, are not in any way a criticism of the Garda. We appreciate that the problem is a difficult one to deal with. Those who are carrying these lethal weapons, of necessity conceal them until in a moment of anger or exasperation they draw them, and the wounds are then rapidly inflicted. Detection in these cases is extremely difficult and the fact that the Garda have had such a high rate of detection is something on which they deserve to be complimented, and we on the Fine Gael side certainly do that. However, it is desirable that public alarm should be sounded about these occurrences.
I appreciate that the tradition of Ministers for Justice and their advisers is always to minimise the alarm which the gentlemen of the Fourth Estate may have set off, but those gentlemen are discharging a national and a social duty in bringing to the attention of the people the number of incidents of this kind which do arise, as they are symptomatic of viciousness and disregard for the happiness and welfare of others which should not be tolerated in our community. The surest way of discouraging activities of this kind is for an alarm to be sounded about what is happening because if the wrongdoers feel that society is angered about their misbehaviour, there is always the prospect that they will fear the penalties which may be imposed and that the number of incidents of this kind will be reduced. It may prevent potential wrongdoers carrying these lethal weapons, be they knives, stiletto combs, penknives or other instruments. We do believe that the journalists and the members of this House who have complained about this are performing a public duty and that we are assisting the Garda by discouraging people from carrying around weapons of this kind.
I rise merely to support any measures that are taken to stamp out this type of attack on the public or the Garda. We on this side of the House have continually supported the Garda Síochána since its inception and we do on this occasion. The Garda are being disheartened by the treatment that is given to many of the culprits who are brought before the courts. The only way to deal with this element is to give them the treatment such people got in the past. I do not have to say what type of treatment it was, but it will help to stamp out these activities. If a garda brings a case into court, one does not know——
The Deputy is travelling beyond the scope of the motion.
I am making the point that the Garda are being disheartened by the fact that if they bring a case into court——
This question is very limited.
I shall limit my remarks but I wish to reiterate that we on this side of the House support the Garda in their efforts to stamp out these incidents.
The Garda, far from being disheartened, support the views I have expressed in replying to the question today put down by Deputy Cosgrave. The Garda are against any legislation being introduced in regard to the control of the use of knives for the very good reason that they believe, and I agree fully with them, that any such legislation would be ineffective.
The facts are—and we have ascertained them by considering each specific incident—that over the past two years, of 30 criminal stabbings, in only one case was a knife used of the type to which Deputy Ryan referred, the flick knife or the stiletto knife. In the other 29 cases the knife used was of the "homespun" variety, a carving knife, a domestic knife or penknife. The penknife appears to be the most popular instrument for this kind of operation. When a spot check was made in regard to eight recent cases, five of the eight were found to have involved the use of a penknife.
I am concerned about these stabbing incidents and the Garda are concerned, but I want to put this matter into perspective. It would be very difficult to devise a method of controlling by legislation the purchase and sale of penknives, which have been bought by people for generations and which are available for purchase in shops and are bought for domestic use by practically every household in the country. The Garda agree with me that this form of criminal behaviour is one that fresh legislation is unlikely to cure. Under the present law one can get penal servitude for life for an offence involving the use of a knife, if the injury caused is serious enough.
I agree on the importance of the press in bringing to the public notice matters of public concern but there is one feature of stabbing incidents, that is, the imitative behaviour it evokes. In other words, whenever a series of stabbing incidents occurs or when a stabbing incident gets prominence in the newspaper columns, or if it is seen on television in any country, youths or adolescents tend to imitate the crimes described. The press can, accordingly, co-operate in combating the problem by not overplaying these incidents. If any undue prominence is given to these offences, it will generate more offences of the same kind. That has been the experience everywhere and it looks as if we are experiencing it in Ireland at the present time.
I should like to refer to another factor and I do so without any apology. Deputy de Valera tended to hedge it in by referring to our special circumstances, but irrespective of our circumstances, we can claim that the detection rate in regard to wounding offences is fantastically good. The detection rate is 96 per cent and that stands comparison with the record of the police force of any other country. The publicity given to the 96 per cent of apprehensions and the very large percentage of convictions in stabbing incidents is not commensurate with the publicity afforded to the incidents when they occur. The public are getting a distorted picture of these matters in that a single incident, which may not be a serious one but gets a flaming bannerline possibly in an evening newspaper, may result in an apprehension the following morning, which does not get any publicity at all. That apprehension may result in a charge, a prosecution and a conviction, none of which appears in the newspapers; and the public therefore get a picture of unlimited stabbing incidents with no follow-up by the police when, in fact, the apprehension rate runs at something like 96 per cent. The follow-up by the police entails a great deal of hard work, resulting in most cases in convictions. Unfortunately the ordinary routine work of police investigation, apprehension and subsequent prosecution and conviction, is not as spectacular from a news point of view as the original incident and no publicity is given to it and thus the public get a distorted picture.
It is my hope that the Fourth Estate will—I am sure it will—give appropriate publicity to this fantastic achievement of a 96 per cent apprehension rate. I am sure the House will join with me now in paying tribute to the Garda Síochána for their efficiency in this regard.
Let me emphasise that it is not just my idea that legislation would be very difficult and possibly ineffective from the point of view of dealing with this problem. The people most vitally concerned, the Garda Síochána themselves, agree. The problem calls for a balanced attitude by the newspapers and greater control in the homes. I agree with Deputy Coogan that a more positive attitude on the part of our courts in imposing penalties for this most reprehensible type of crime would achieve results. I think we are all agreed on that. This is a crime which should be dealt with in the most stringent possible way. With that word of advice—I was challenged here recently by Deputy T. J. Fitzpatrick for giving advice to the courts—I find myself in complete accord with Deputy Coogan in emphasising that this type of crime merits the most stringent penalties; the penalties are there under existing legislation.
In conclusion, I would ask Deputies, the public generally and the newspapers to look at the matter in proper perspective.
(Cavan): The Minister is now advising the press.
We should examine the situation closely and keep an eye on it, regarding it as a problem but not becoming hysterical because it is a peculiarity of the problem that any kind of hysterical bannerlines, photographs, sensational reporting, inevitably generates further crimes of this particular type.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.55 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 10th June, 1965.