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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Jun 1965

Vol. 217 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Finance Bill, 1965: Committee Stage (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following amendment:
Before section 10, but in Part I, to insert a new section as follows:—
Section 21 of the Finance Act, 1922 shall be amended by the addition of the following subsection:—
(10) No direction shall be given under this section in respect of any accounting period after 1 year has expired from the date of the submission of the accounts of the company to the Inspector of Taxes.

As Members of the House may be aware, and as the Minister most certainly is, section 21 of the Finance Act, 1922, was enacted for the purpose of enabling the Revenue Commissioners to charge supertax as it was then, surtax as it is now, on the undistributed income of certain companies. It was aimed primarily at an economy such as that of Britain and not so much at the type of economy we have here, where inevitably there is, I might say, such a preponderance of private family companies. These private family companies obtain the capital they need increasingly over the years by ploughing back into the business the profits from the business.

That is necessary partly because of the view taken over the years in various Finance Acts, by various Ministers, that the appropriate measure of depreciation is depreciation calculated on the initial cost of the goods and not the cost it would be necessary to pay for replacement of goods or machinery. It is a fact which cannot be gainsaid that by far the greatest number of our private companies have got the capital they needed to cope with the depreciation in the value of money by ploughing back their profits into the businesses.

At the same time, I can appreciate there is a necessity for a provision such as section 21 to cover the case where the provisions of the Companies Act have been used not for the purpose of building up the financial strength of a manufacturing or other company but purely for the purpose of tax avoidance. I am not interested in such cases. I am interested in the cases where the profits have been ploughed back into businesses for the purpose of making the concerns more viable in the inflationary conditions in which we live.

My objection to the method in which section 21 is operated is to the machinery rather than the phraseology of the provision itself. It seems to me that when a company delivers its accounts to the inspector of taxes—I cannot remember whether that is automatically considered a delivery to the Revenue Commissioners—the inspector of taxes should within a fixed period be able to determine whether he felt the capital ploughed back in a particular case was properly ploughed back or whether he felt it should be paid out in dividends.

If it is appropriate to pay it out in dividends, then, of course, the Revenue Commissioners would get surtax, perhaps, in respect of the dividends that were paid. If, on the other hand, it is appropriate to plough the money back into the business, we should get development of that business in the way the national economy requires, and I think the Minister will agree that if it were not for the amount of capital ploughed back into various businesses, particularly into family concerns, in that way, we should not have anything like a viable economy now or at any future time.

I understand from accountants—this is not a matter with which solicitors have any specific contact, unless it appears to be in their clients' interests— that a new technique has been growing up. The official concerned telephones to the accountants dealing with the matter and says: "Yours is a case in which we feel a direction should be given under section 21 going back over several years". I should, perhaps, explain that under the Care and Management Acts in relation to taxes, the Commissioners have a specific function in this matter, apart from the Minister. This is the only case, to my knowledge, in which it is appropriate to refer to officials rather than the Minister because the Minister is not permitted under the Acts to intervene in individual cases.

I am advised the position is that in recent times the personnel concerned will threaten a surtax direction over a period, going back for 20 years in some cases, even though during that period assessments have already been issued and the tax on those assessments already paid. The method of dealing with this is, as I have said, the telephone—nothing is ever put in writing. The official says on the telephone: "This seems an appropriate case for direction going back over a substantial period", and having, by that means, created an atmosphere or background, he then says: "If you pay so and so, I shall not proceed to recommend to the Board of the Revenue Commissioners that a direction be made."

The amount involved, of course, varies in individual cases. Previously I have used the very strong word "blackmail". That is what this would be considered in private life. I understand that where the taxpayer sticks out his neck and says: "I will not be browbeaten in this matter", a direction is never issued. It seems to me, therefore, it must be a very odd type of case in which a Government Department threatens to make a direction and when the taxpayer stands out against them, no further action is taken. It shows, as I have said, that in relation to all taxation, there must be finality somewhere. I suggest, as has been suggested by one accountant to me—he has cases in which the Commissioners have threatened directions going back for 20 years—that this is quite indefensible.

In this amendment, I propose that the Commissioners be allowed a year in which to make up their minds what to do. I do not suggest a year after the end of the period in question because that could be defeated by the company concerned not furnishing the accounts in time, but a year after they have got the accounts is plenty time for the Commissioners to consider the matter. It would enable the company concerned to know exactly where it stood.

I stress there is no suggestion in the amendment that the Minister should not get any taxes which it is felt should be paid at present. On the contrary, I can see a case being made against this amendment that more directions might be made. I would be prepared to put up with that for the sake of getting matters settled within a year, but the situation in which a person does not know over a long number of years where his company stands militates against modernisation and adaptation.

I must say I understand that the method adopted is not peculiar to this country. I happened to be in London recently. I inquired from a big firm of accountants there whether the British Revenue operate rather in this way of making a big threat and then taking something very substantially less in order to avoid a fuss. I was told that they did, though of course their direction legislation is entirely different from ours. It does seem a pity that when we copy British legislation and British practice, we should copy their bad points in a case such as this, rather than some good ones.

Deputy Sweetman has of course correctly stated that the purpose of section 21 is to avoid permitting a company to get out of certain obligations. The purpose of the section is to cope with these devices which, in effect, are avoidance devices one hesitates to use the word "avoidance" as against "evasion" but these are avoidance devices in most cases. I understand that Deputy Sweetman's amendment would nullify the effect of the section which operates in such a way that if a company is doing fairly well and distributes none or very little of its profits and says, in effect, to the Revenue Commissioners: "We are holding back these profits for the purpose of development, for necessary expenditure on the development of our company," and if that continues for a year or two years, the Revenue Commissioners do not take action because they realise it might take some time to build up a reasonable amount of money in order to enable the company to engage in that type of development.

It is only if so many years have passed and no development has taken place that the Revenue Commissioners say that apparently this is an attempt to avoid payment of surtax because the profits are being put away somewhere and are not being distributed. If they had been distributed, they would be taxable in the ordinary way. The Revenue Commissioners are entitled to ask them what they propose to do. They are entitled to say to the company: "You say you want to develop but no development has taken place." In such circumstances the inspector of the Revenue Commissioners is entitled to make a direction and, in so doing, he may say: "You owe so much", where we have surtax.

The practice, as I understand it, is that, after a certain number of years— certainly not going back 20 years, I believe, in any case; it may have happened in an isolated instance but certainly not as a general rule—the inspector says to that company: "You have not distributed your profits; you have not carried on with your development. Therefore, I am entitled to make a direction. On the other hand, if we can come to a reasonable settlement, I shall recommend acceptance of the tax on the basis of that settlement." Deputy Sweetman said he would prefer the inspector to make frequent directions rather than——

I do not think the inspector has any power at all to make a direction.

Maybe, in an intransitive way, that he would prefer——

Application to the Revenue Commissioners for a direction is a different thing altogether. Special Commissioners have had to do it in a quasi-judicial way.

I think it is undesirable that the present system should be upset. I understand that a reasonable approach is made by the inspector and by the Revenue Commissioners generally to this method. I think it would not be in the interest of the taxpayer or the company if a direction had to be made. I believe that in recent experience of the present officers, no direction has in fact been made. One assumes, therefore, that a reasonably satisfactory settlement has been come to.

Because the blackmailers' bluff has been called.

It is not blackmailers' bluff: perhaps it is the avoiders' bluff.

No. You can drive a coach and four through this section 21.

There is a reasonable proviso in it as far as the company is concerned. The section has a proviso which says that, in determining, for the purpose of the application of the section, whether or not a proper distribution has been made to the shareholders, regard must be had to the reasonable financial requirements of the business and to the amounts which must reasonably be set aside by way of reserve towards its maintenance and development. Therefore, they are statutorily required to have regard to these things. I suggest that the acceptance of this amendment would nullify the effect of section 21 of the 1922 Act and would therefore enable and facilitate this avoidance device by such companies.

Can the Minister indicate how many years he wants to look at the accounts?

It depends on the circumstances. I should say that some companies might require more years than others in order to indicate whether they can go ahead with their proposed development. If they have accounts in one year, envisaging certain developments which they have not undertaken, and coming on to the second year and the third year, naturally, it is only reasonable that the circumstances of each case should be taken into consideration as to how far back the Revenue Commissioners ought to go in these matters.

I shall take the Minister's word. I shall accept three years.

That is only an example.

In other words, just what suits.

What suits and what is reasonable.

It does not do the Minister any credit, you know.

Amendment put and declared lost.
Section 10 agreed to.
SECTION 11.
Question proposed: "That section 11 stand part of the Bill".

The Minister has increased the duty on spirits. Therefore, the differential that exists between the different types of spirit, while remaining the same, absolutely is lower in terms of percentage. Is the Minister satisfied that the differential introduced last year is sufficient with present prices, or rather prices as they will be when section 11 is enacted?

I could not say that in advance of the experience of sales of spirits but it is a matter I shall naturally keep under observation.

In a matter like this, the estimate of the Revenue Commissioners is 99.9 per cent accurate. I presume the Minister has got an estimate and that it will be adequate?

I have. The estimate gives a clear indication of a considerable percentage increase in the consumption of home-produced spirits as compared with imported spirits.

That was the experience last year?

That is right.

Was there any chance of testing that experience since 11th May—any figures available?

I understand that because of its being the budgetary period, it is a rather unreliable period on which to make assessments.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 12.
Question proposed: "That section 12 stand part of the Bill".

We oppose this section. We opposed it as part of the Budget Statement and the Budget Resolution produced by the Minister. We feel that the tax this section imposes is, in the present state of the economy, an unwise tax, a tax which, in effect, can have a very unfavourable result in regard to the distribution of goods and the distributive trade. Any taxation of that kind is, we think, unwise. Deputies are aware that there is at present an awareness in the Government in regard to the problem of rising prices. That problem is a matter to which we have directed public attention for some considerable time past. It is worth recording that from these benches not so long ago it was pointed out to the Government that if they proceeded with a certain new percentage tax, the result would be a new spiralling of prices. Our views at that time were not accepted by the Government. This tax on petrol again is a tax on distribution but it will not and cannot have the disastrous effects of the other type of taxation but nevertheless it is a new charge, a new element in costs and will add to rising prices. Therefore we oppose the section.

There is one point I can make immediately. I take it Deputy O'Higgins's suggestion is that we should relieve petrol in some way when it is used for the purpose of industry, business or other related purposes in the interests of the economy. It would be very desirable to do that at any time as it would tend to keep down the cost of production. Nevertheless, it is something that has never been done, even in the 1956 circumstances, similar to the circumstances that might now obtain. There were at least three occasions, I think, during the term of office of the inter-Party Government, when the tax on petrol was increased and on none of these occasions was any rebate or remission given for the type of purpose the Deputy now has in mind.

There is, however, a certain built-in relief already in the system in the case of kerosene, tractor vaporising oil, diesel oil, and lubricating oil which are relieved of any duties except in cases where these oils are used in road vehicles. The oils in question, when used for purely industrial purposes within a factory, are relieved, but when one comes to contemplate relieving petrol and diesel oil for road purposes, one is faced with a tremendous problem. It is possible that previous Ministers for Finance contemplated giving some relief on petrol and diesel oil when used in road vehicles but realised the almost absolute impossibility of administering such a relief. I need not tell the House that such a relief would be open to tremendously wide abuse. In the circumstances, not only having regard to precedent but I can quote precedent on it, I do not think I could accept the opposition to the section which I believe is for the purpose I have mentioned.

Would the Minister mind explaining if subsection (5) (a) gives an entire rebate for diesel oil for agricultural purposes, or if not, where it is given?

I understand a complete rebate is contained in (5) (a).

What I cannot understand is why the figure in subsection (5) (a) differs from the figure in subsection (2).

It is the difference, I believe, between the customs and the excise. It is customs in the first case.

Is there an entire rebate of the customs duty and an entire rebate of the excise duty?

For agricultural purposes?

Yes, for agricultural purposes.

In view of the failure of the Minister to give a reduction in the case of petrol for commercial purposes, could he not give it in another way by reducing the road tax on commercial vehicles? That would alleviate the situation and leave petrol as it is.

I am afraid I could not contemplate that.

With respect to the Minister, I do not think he is quite right. Subsection (5) (a) refers to the duty of customs; subsection (2) also refers to the duty of customs. In subsection (2), the duty of customs is 3/4 1/12d.; in subsection (5) (a), the customs duty is 2/8?d. Where does the difference go? How is the farmer to get back that difference?

Is there a difference between hydrocarbon light oil in subsection (2) and hydrocarbon oil in subsection (5)? One is mineral hydrocarbon light oil. Is that a different category?

Hydrocarbon light oil covers practically all petrol.

The Minister said all oil used in agricultural tractors was rebated.

Diesel oil, not petrol.

What about petrol? Then he is charging, if petrol is used?

I understand there is no relief of petrol. It is of diesel oil that there is relief.

That is what I thought but that is what I wanted to get out. I saw that one section was petrol and the other diesel.

I thought the original question the Deputy asked was if it was all diesel oil used for agricultural purposes.

As far as I know, there is only a penny difference between customs and excise. Am I wrong in that?

That is correct, yes.

I do not see why people should be asked to pay that— why farmers should pay the petrol tax on that.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 63; Níl, 41.

  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Boylan, Terence.
  • Brady, Philip.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Davern, Don.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fahey, John.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzpatrick, Thomas J.
  • (Dublin South-Central).
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Foley, Desmond.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, Hugh.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, James J.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lenihan, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Norton, Patrick.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Burke, Joan T.
  • Burton, Philip.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Fitzpatrick, Thomas J. (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary).
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lindsay, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • Lyons, Michael D.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • Murphy, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Higgins, Micheal J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.K.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Geogheg an and Ó Briain; Níl: Deputies L'Estrange and T. Dunne.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 13.

I move amendment No. 9:

To add a new subsection as follows:—

"() This section shall not apply to hard-pressed tobacco."

The object of this amendment is to implement the viewpoint we expressed on the occasion of the Budget Statement. We were anxious then to ensure that the increase in the tax on tobacco would not extend to hard-pressed tobacco. I am aware that there is a preferential rate in respect of hard-pressed tobacco, but, as I understood the Minister's statement on the Budget, the increase in the Budget applies to both ordinary tobacco and hard-pressed tobacco. This amendment is not, perhaps, very suitably drafted but its object is to exclude hard-pressed tobacco from the tax.

I support this amendment for various reasons, not the least being as a protest against the remark made by the Minister for Finance on 11th May last, as reported at column 1027 of volume 215 of the Official Report. It was, without exception, the most nonsensical remark, I think, any Minister for Finance has ever made sitting in that seat:

Mr. Lynch: All pipe smokers are wealthy people.

I did not say that.

I heard the Minister.

Are not wealthy people, surely.

"All pipe smokers are wealthy people." Any Minister for Finance who makes a statement of that sort is not keeping his feet on the ground and certainly shows little understanding and appreciation of the effect that section 13 of the Bill will have.

It is difficult for me to deny that I said what Deputy Sweetman has just quoted, but I am certain I never said it. Unfortunately, I did not check the proofs before they were committed to print. I am in print now for all time, as far as Deputy Sweetman is concerned.

And as far as any quotation suits in every election.

I did say that not all smokers of hard-pressed tobacco were hard-pressed themselves. I said that somewhere else.

I remember the Minister saying that, too.

Surely I must have said: "Not all pipe smokers are wealthy people." If I said what Deputy Sweetman has quoted me as having said, I agree with him that it would be a nonsensical remark. I am sure I never said it.

To come back now to the substance of the amendment, Deputy O'Higgins has acknowledged that the amendment, as drafted, is defective. It is defective to the extent that the duty is chargeable on the leaf and not on further processing stages. The amendment, as drafted, would not therefore achieve the purpose the Deputy wants to achieve. However, that is a small point. I appreciate that what the Deputy wants to do is that I should have an amendment drafted that would achieve the same purpose. As I said on the occasion of the debate on the Budget Resolution itself, a considerable number of well-off people smoke hard-pressed tobacco. It is, as we know, the ordinary plug tobacco. Not only is more plug tobacco smoked than flake tobacco, but 85 per cent of all tobacco smoked is plug tobacco. This is something I found very hard to believe. I questioned the Revenue Commissioners on it and I am fully satisfied their figures are correct. There must be in that 85 per cent a considerable number of people who could afford more than plug tobacco. I do not blame people who are comparatively well off opting for plug tobacco as against ready-rubbed tobacco because, even with the increase in duty imposed by this section on both plug tobacco and flake tobacco, there is still a differential of about 1/7d. per ounce in favour of plug tobacco.

That is a very considerable concession. While in one Budget at least brought in by my predecessor, he did not increase the duty on plug tobacco proportionately with the duty on flake tobacco, nevertheless I think an increase is justified, having regard to the great number of people who can afford to buy the other type of tobacco who smoke plug tobacco and having regard in particular to the still very wide difference in cost per ounce between plug tobacco and flake tobacco.

I have to accept what the Minister says in relation to the information he has been given that 85 per cent of the tobacco smoked is hard-pressed tobacco. I accept the Minister has got that information, but I must doubt its accuracy.

It is mathematically correct.

I doubt it. I was so astonished at the percentage the Minister gave on the occasion of the Budget that I have specifically inquired every time I have since bought an ounce of tobacco, which is two or three times a week. I do not buy my tobacco in the same place on each occasion. Everyone who has sold me tobacco has said: "It is extraordinary; it could not be so." I doubt very much if it is so.

I wonder is there any possibility of room for difference in the definition of what is considered to be hard-pressed tobacco and flake tobacco? Is it possible that tobacco that was originally in hard-pressed form and is then flaked out into a tin is called flake?

I believe that is not the case.

Is Wills' Handycut hard-pressed?

No, it is cut tobacco and, therefore, it is flake.

Is the test for the definition if it is sold as retail tobacco over the counter?

I give up.

For the record, I think the Minister made a slight slip which might be embarrassing. He said the differential between flake and hard-pressed tobacco was 1/7d. per ounce. I think he meant per pound.

No, per ounce.

I think I will stick to plug.

Deputy Booth cannot be a pipe smoker or he would know there was a bigger difference.

I saw him cutting a bit of plug this morning.

But did he smoke it?

What about the snuff?

There is no extra rebate on snuff.

It was put up last year on the oldest and poorest sections of the community, even though it brings in only about £10,000.

In relation to these amendments, may I put this on these record? There is not the slightest use in an Opposition ever drafting an amendment or attempting to draft an amendment of this kind exactly. It is a bad thing if anybody other than one person drafts one part of an Act. If you get six or seven people drafting a document, the document is very badly drafted at the end. The Minister referred to the actual wording of this. I want to make it clear that we believe the duty of an Opposition is to put up an amendment in a form that will indicate to the Minister and the House the substance of what we desire. We have tried to do that in various amendments and have not gone into the technicalities.

I accepted that in reply to the remarks of Deputy T.F. O'Higgins.

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 44; Níl, 64.

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Burke, Joan T.
  • Burton, Philip.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Fitzpatrick, Thomas J. (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary).
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lindsay, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • Lyons, Michael D.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • Murphy, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.K.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.

Níl

  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Boylan, Terence.
  • Brady, Philip.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, James J.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lenihan, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Crowely, Honor M.
  • Davern, Don.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fahey, John.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzpatrick, Thomas J.
  • (Dublin South-Central).
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Foley, Desmond.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, Hugh.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Norton, Patrick.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá: Deputies L'Estrange and T. Dunne; Níl: Deputies Geoghegan and Ó Briain.
Amendment declared lost.
Section 13 agreed to.
SECTION 14.
Question proposed: "That section 14 stand part of the Bill".

The Minister indicated on the day after the Budget that there were to be discussions with the wine importers about the manner in which the Financial Resolution was going to fall with equal severity on cheaper wines as on the dearer wines and that the increase in duty therefore was going to be a flat rather than a percentage increase. I should be glad to know the results of those discussions. I gather from the fact that the section of the Bill is in its present form that there was no agreement on it.

No, it did not come to the point of agreement. There was no agreement or otherwise. I am informed that the secretary of the appropriate association, the Wine Dealers Association, telephoned the Revenue Commissioners in response to the interjection I made when Deputy Sweetman was speaking on that day, when I intimated that the Revenue Commissioners would be glad to meet the Wine Dealers Association to see whether any more acceptable form, that is, acceptable to both sides, could be worked out. Following that inquiry, the Revenue Commissioners invited the Association to come and talk with them but they have not yet come.

Mr. Belton

Would the Minister not consider putting an extra tax on Chateau wines where, say, the duty would be ten per cent whereas at the moment putting a 1/- on a bottle of wine costing 4/- or 5/- amounts to a 25 per cent increase? Surely the Chateau wine could take a higher tax than the 1/- per bottle? Would the Minister not consider doing it himself? The carafe wine which is sold and bottled here has at least some labour content but the Chateau wine is imported bottled. There is a company to do that in France, or in whatever country it comes from. If carafe wine were kept lower, there would at least be some employment in the bottling and also in the Glass Bottle Company.

I think the Minister will agree with me that there are two things to be considered. The trade must be considered but the consumer must be considered. The effect of this additional taxation has been quite substantial on the cheaper wines but because of the manner in which it has been imposed, it has not been of any real consequence on the dearer wines. That seems to me to be a bad principle of taxation in relation to this matter and the Minister should endeavour to devise some way in which, while getting exactly the same amount of money, the tax would fall more equitably.

Would the Minister consider another aspect of the case? I understand that levy has been imposed on continental wines as a whole. I am sure the Minister appreciates the difficulties this country is facing to-day in regard to the balance of payments. One of our opportunities for developing an export trade is in regard to whiskey to the Continent of Europe and on the Continent of Europe over the past three or four years there has been a growing consuming public for whiskey. Is it not a fact that if we impose this tariff, there may be a quid pro quo as a result and we may find it increasingly difficult to export whiskey to the different centres on the continent?

The purchasing power of people in Europe has considerably increased over the past few years, as the Minister knows, and wherever you get an increase in the purchasing power, you always have a demand for a particular product. In this case, it has been a far experience that there has been a far greater demand in Europe for whiskey than there was before. Therefore, are we not in effect asking these Governments to impose a tariff on us, as we are imposing on them? With regard to the tariff imposed, it seems to me to be an open tariff as it is imposed generally on continental wines as a whole. Would the Minister like to indicate whether this imposition is on French wines, Italian wines or on German wines, or is it on all continental wines?

I should just like to say that it is not really important whether or not the duty is levied on cheaper wines as well as on expensive wines. In point of fact, the content of employment given in bottling wines is negligible and not a matter of great consequence, nor will the imposition of a 1/- on a bottle deter people from buying it.

What does the Deputy call cheap wine?

Take a bottle of wine which cost 4/6 before the Budget. That will be up now by 1/- to 1/3. I do not think that an increase of 1/3 on 4/6 is going to deter anybody from buying the wine. In my view, this is not a very seious matter. It may be that it has gone up in some cases considerably more. That is the responsibility of the licensed trade and not of the Minister for Finance.

Can the Deputy guarantee that the hotels will only put on 1/-?

The Deputy can guarantee nothing because the licensed trade is inclined to multiply and item of revenue which the Minister has sought here. I feel that the increase of 1/- does not interfere with the wine trade one way or the other. There has been a lot of talk about something which is of little or no importance. It should also be borne in mind that most of the wine bottled is not Chateau bottled wine but is cheaper wine which is imported and bottled here. In order to get the same amount of revenue from the more expensive wines, it would be necessary to increase the duty very considerably on the expensive wines. Really in this instance there has been much ado about nothing.

Mr. Belton

A man in the Labour Party who is employing a few girls to do the work——

I do not employ girls. I employ trade union people, and I resent these dirty insinuations.

Mr. Belton

The Deputy insinuated originally.

I insinuated nothing.

I am calling on Deputy Donegan.

Deputy Belton happens to have a vested interest in this himself.

(Interruptions.)

Order, please. Will all the Deputies who are standing please resume their seats? We cannot conduct the debate on the basis of this bickering. I am calling on Deputy Donegan.

I should like to say that Deputy Belton seems to have produced something of interest when he says that the more expensive wines are not bottled here and the less expensive ones are. I, like Deputy Belton, have some knowledge of the trade but I want to say that I disagree with Deputy Norton—with respect and in the most friendly manner—when he says there is not a large employment element in bottling and handling wines, spirits and beers.

I did not say that.

Well, the Deputy said wines.

I said, bottling wine as distinct from retailing.

In the actual bottling of wine, as in beers and spirits, labour has a very big share. All one has to do is to go into one of our modern breweries and see the proportion of the labour content absorbed in bottling as compared with the actual brewing. Anyway, we cannot manufacture the product in this country. We have not got Irish grapes with which to make Irish wine. The best we can do is give as much employment as possible in the bottling.

Deputy Belton made the point that there should be a concession in respect of the cheap wines bottled here and that a greater tax should be put on the more expensive wines. He did not suggest that the overall amount of tax on the commodity should be reduced. His submission was that it would have been more sensible to impose a greater rate of duty on the more expensive wines not bottled here. His suggestion is worthy of consideration.

Has the Minister got figures to indicate how much wine is imported in cask and how much in bottle? I imagine he would have the figures in terms of value.

In terms of gallons and value, but not in terms of bottles.

Could we have both?

In 1964, we imported 743,809 gallons costing £563,325— roughly 750,000 gallons at a cost of £564,000, approximately.

Can the Minister break it down into figures for the amount imported in bottles and in bulk?

I am afraid I have not got the figures here.

Are they available?

It is possible to get them.

Should we not encourage imports in cask?

If it helps employment to some degree, I feel we should do so. Of course, there is the attraction of Chateau wines at all times. Like some of the Deputies who spoke, I have no interest in selling it in any way. There is a difficulty in so far as imposing different rates of duty on different categories of wine is concerned. At the moment we have four distinct categories—not exceeding 25 per cent proof spirit, exceeding 25 per cent proof but not exceeding 30 per cent, between 30 per cent and 42 per cent proof, and then sparkling wine in bottles. The last mentioned is confined to champagne. I understand that in Britain they have abolished the separate categories and now have only two main categories.

It was on those lines that I was hoping we could have some consultation with the wine dealers to see if we could have a simpler categorisation, resulting, perhaps, in a lesser impost on the cheaper wines. When these consultations did not take place, I decided to stick to the original proposition of a flat rate of 1/- per bottle, including a margin for turnover tax. As Deputy Norton pointed out, the flat rate was not adhered to in all cases. The margins which have been taken in the sale by the glass or half-glass worked out in the order of 1/9d. per bottle increase and the wholesalers, in Dublin at any rate, have increased the price by 1/6d. per bottle. Others have adhered to the increase of 1/-per bottle.

Deputy Esmonde suggested there might be some retaliation against Irish whiskey on the continent. I do not think that is right. I hope the Deputy in his travels does not give them bad ideas. I share with him the hope that Irish distillers will take into consideration the increased consumption of whiskey on the continent. We all know that, because of its maturing time, whiskey ties up capital for considerable periods. In that way it is unlike other commodities which can be disposed of quickly after manufacture for cash. That does not apply in the case of distillers. I am not, however, completely absolving them from not making sufficient effort to cash in on the continental market where there is much wider scope for Irish whiskey than the Irish distillers think.

Would the Minister explain the purport of subsection (2)? Does that affect this issue?

It relates to reexport. It is the usual provision.

The Minister, I think, put words into Deputy Norton's mouth. What Deputy Norton suggested was that while he could not say what the increase in wines had been, he felt it was 1/3d. per bottle. He did not say wholesalers were increasing the price by 1/3d. or 1/6d. a bottle.

When I mentioned 1/9d., I was referring to sale by glass.

Dealing with wholesalers, my experience has been that even after the Budget, from stocks, wines were freely available at pre-Budget prices. After the Budget they were freely available at 1/- per bottle more. There is no evidence that any large proportion of wine wholesalers took advantage of this. The Minister may have other evidence but it is only fair for us, if we believe that evidence to be incorrect, to say so here. The Minister indicated only what he has in his brief. I believe there has not been extra profit taken. In the possible advent of price control, it is only right I should say that here.

It is not what is in my brief. As the Deputy knows, after the Budget, there was a formal announcement by the licensed trade of an increase of 2d. on the glass of wine, sherry and so on. Taking a bottle of whiskey at 10¾ glasses, that represents 1/9d. per bottle as against the 1/- that was justified.

The Minister may be talking about one part of the licensed trade. The licensed trade in Ireland is composed of a very large number of people. As well as that, there are different organisations. Therefore, when the Minister talks about the increase—which, I take his word for it, was made—he should make quite sure he does not say that the whole licensed trade did that.

I think I have as much experience of the retailing of the licensed trade in this city as Deputy Belton or anyone else. When I said that the wines had gone up more than 1/- a bottle, the point is that the general wholesale price in Dublin city has been increased by 1/2d., which is 1/- plus 2d. extra put on by the trade.

I will tell the Deputy where he can get it for 1/-.

The Deputy need not do so. By the time it gets to the retailer, the general increase is about 1/6d. These are facts, irrespective of what one individual might do. This is the general trend. I did not suggest for a moment that the wholesalers had put up the price of wine by 1/6d. or 1/9d. I think that, by the time it gets to the public, it has gone up by the duty, plus 50 per cent. If Deputy Sweetman gets the figures about the imports in cask and bottle, I imagine he will find that about 80 to 90 per cent of the wine brought into this country is brought in in cask. In order to get the same amount of revenue by increasing the amount of wine brought into this country in bottles, it would be necessary to increase the duty on that particular small section very considerably. I think it would be impracticable and would kill that type of trade. I do not think it is putting any great hardship on anybody when a bottle of wine which cost 4/6d. now costs 5/10d. I stand over that figure, irrespective of what the licensed trade may think.

Mr. Belton

We sell as cheaply as anybody does on the off-sale. If you want to take away a bottle, you may do so.

Do not advertise.

Mr. Belton

We were discussing wine. The Deputy brought in what the licensed trade is doing. Any charge is for service, breakages and such things. We sell exactly the same as Deputy Norton.

I do not think the Minister quite appreciated what I meant. The position at the moment is that in the wine trade generally in Europe, there is a tendency to slight over-production and there is considerable difficulty in marketing. I do not know what our trade agreement with France is. The Minister probably knows more about it than I do. However, I understand that we take wines from them in return for the sale of other produce. If we impose a tariff here on wines— and I consider that the major portion of wine consumed here in Ireland, in spite of what Deputy Norton says, is French wine—I should like to feel sure that it will not in any way affect any agreement we have vis-à-vis France and not necessarily only France but other European countries, too.

A conference has been held over the past few years under the auspices of the Council of Europe at which an attempt has been made to liberalise the sale of wines and spirits and alcoholic commodities. I feel that absolute clarification by the Minister is necessary as to whether that agreement reached by all the separate countries concerned will be mitigated in any way.

I cannot read the minds of European Governments.

I am more interested in the Irish Government than in the European Governments.

What the Irish Government do is one thing but what other Governments do is another. I cannot say what other Governments will do in relation to what the Irish Government have done.

The Minister still does not take my point, which is that I should like an assurance to the House that this tariff is not likely to bring about any difficulty with any other Government.

It would be most unlikely. We are in balance, to our great disfavour, with other European countries. It is hardly likely that they would retaliate for a small imposition of this nature, especially when comparing the position with 1949. In 1949, we had an import of about 450,000 gallons while this year we have an estimated import of 850,000 gallons, an increase of almost 100 per cent. It is hardly likely that they would take action against us. It must be in their interest, if there is a surplus of wines, to get markets for them. We are an increasing market.

Could the Minister further indicate if the sale of wines is in any way tied up with any trade agreement we have?

I am sure it is part of our agreement with France and Germany because we have imports of wines from those countries and agreements with them, but I cannot say to what extent this will be material in those trade agreements.

Is there any infringement of that agreement by us?

The Deputy may be sure there is not. Revenue duties are never considered to be infringements of these agreements.

I hope not, anyway.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 15 to 17, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 18.

I move amendment No. 10:

To delete "five years" wherever those words occur in the section and substitute "three years".

I think this amendment can be considered in conjunction with the amendments to section 24. I think it might be easier if they were discussed when we reach section 24.

Could the Deputy not discuss it now with No. 23?

Very well. The purpose of these amendments is to deal with the proposal in the Bill which is designed to increase the impact of estate duties and death duties as it affects gifts made inter vivos. Under the law as it stands at present, and as it has been for the past 55 years, since the Finance Act of 1910, the position is that if a person makes a gift in his lifetime to another, and lives longer than three years after the no death duties attach to the property which he has given to the beneficiary. This provision, which is recognised in the law in relation to death duties, one must assume, has been recognised because there is a social need. It is regarded as a desirable thing that the older people coming towards the end of their lives should hand over and pass on their property to younger people and should encourage the transfer and disposition of property into more active and energetic hands. It is well to recollect that originally, after the idea of estate duty or probate duty, as it was once called, became part of the taxation system of Great Britain and was consequently carried over into our law, the period was 12 months. If a person made a gift inter vivos and lived more than 12 months, no liability for death duties attached. That was extended in 1910 to three years and it has remained so since. The proposal, therefore, in this Bill to extend the period for a further two years is, against that background, a very drastic proposal. It is one in which there is quite definitely a reversal of what was regarded as an accepted fact for so long a period.

We must discuss this proposal in the light of the fact that whatever the position may have been over the past 55 years, whatever the requirements may have been socially in 1910 and since, it is certainly true to say that in Ireland of 1965, there is more than ever before a growing and urgent need for activity and energy in relation to the use of the resources of the country, and when we find, as we do, that this and every other country finds increasing competition and a very dramatic increase in world population, it certainly is not the time to make it more difficult for older people who desire to benefit and set up their young folk by transferring their property to them or doing something of that kind. It is, therefore, in that sense and because of that that we oppose the proposal contained in these sections to extend this vulnerable period, the period in which a gift is vulnerable to estate duty. We oppose the proposed extension by two years to five years.

Deputy Sweetman has tabled an amendment which would be consequential upon a rejection of this amendment and we may deal with that later, although I observe that the Minister has proposed to meet Deputy Sweetman in relation to any consequential amendment, but at the moment we are discussing the amendment designed to preserve the three-year period because we believe it is necessary in present circumstances that that period should be retained.

I am in some considerable difficulty in relation to this amendment because I am not quite clear as to exactly what we are discussing. It seems to me that the submission made to you, Sir, by Deputy O'Higgins at the beginning was, with all respect, the correct submission. If we accept the principle of the five years in section 24, then I think the principle of five years in section 18 must follow Are we discussing section 24 or section 18? The amendment is an amendment to section 18, but I think the Minister will agree that section 18, in respect of this particular aspect of it, should follow the general line that is going to be laid down in section 24. I want to be quite clear— it does not matter which way it is done—that in discussing the period in section 18 now, I am not going to be restrained from discussing the period in so far as it governs the wider issue in section 24.

The Chair is concerned only with convenience, and of course relevance, and what I suggested was that amendments Nos. 10, 23 and 31 should be discussed together.

They all hinge on section 24. With respect, it is only entirely incidental to the enactment of section 24 that we have this figure in section 18.

I shall not raise any objection to discussing section 24 also.

I think we could discuss section 24 now. What would the Minister prefer?

I am in the hands of the Ceann Comhairle and I am willing to convenience the Opposition. There is only one small point I wish to make. There is a five-year period used in section 18 (4) which is not quite in the same connotation as the term Deputy O'Higgins has in mind. The five-year term in subsection (4) does not really apply to gifts inter vivos. It is a period of five years which, if reduced to three, might work to the disadvantage of the taxpayer.

It is the averaging period.

We can take that as excluded.

Are we going to discuss, in fact, though not in technical theory, whether it is desirable to extend the inter vivos gift period from three years to five?

We shall be discussing amendments Nos 10, 23, 31 and 35, in effect.

First, in regard to section 24, which is the master section in relation to the extension of the inter vivos gift period, I should like the Minister to give in clear and categoric terms what he expects to get out of this extension (a) in terms of duty, (b) in terms of economic worth, and (c) in terms of social benefit. As regards the last, I gather from what he said before that he believes this might have the effect of making older people give away their property at an earlier stage. I disagree categorically with him on that. It will have quite the other effect, that people will think it is not worth while doing so.

As regards the amount that will be involved in the section, I have absolutely no idea in terms of money but I believe it will be negligible. As regards the economic effect, I think it is going to be an irritant, that it will quite substantially effect a further difference between the law here and the law in Northern Ireland. There is already a very substantial difference between our death duty legislation and death duty legislation in the North and to do anything to extend the differential that exists is something which, in my view, will do us very considerable harm.

I think I am right in saying that, leaving apart legacy and succession duty, in respect of which there is no duty payable in Northern Ireland, we have here to get to an estate of over £100,000 before our rates of estate duty are lower than or equal to the rates in Northern Ireland after one has passed £10,000 estates.

In relation to the estate of a man who dies leaving £12,500, the Northern Ireland rate of estate duty is two per cent less than it is in this country and neither legacy nor succession duty is charged there. The rate varies very substantially indeed, but, taken across the board, as I say, you have to get up to the enormous estate of over £100,000 before we equate to the Northern Ireland rate of death duties that are payable. While what we have to pay here varies between three per cent and four per cent more than would be payable up there in estate duty for an estate of similar size, and they have no legacy duty, no succession duty, they have there only a three year gift inter vivos period. We are making the differential even more unfavourable to us again here by increasing it to five years and I do not know why we are doing it.

It is not a question of avoidance. The section may contain some answer to the avoidance measures but the extension of the period from three years to five years is not being done by the Minister for the purpose of preventing avoidance. It is being done, I believe, purely because, parrotlike, it is felt that we should follow the British pattern in London. If we are going to follow any outside pattern, surely it is better to follow the pattern in Belfast than the pattern in London in this respect?

The Minister did not, as far as I can find out, make any effort to defend the proposal on the basis of its being necessary to gain substantial additional revenue. In the introduction of a new feature like this—call it, if you like, the extension of a feature that is there already—there is an obligation on the Minister to make it crystal clear, not merely to this House but to the country as a whole, why he wants to extend this period and what is to be gained from it.

Unfortunately, I was not here in the House when the Minister was replying on last Thursday and, as he is aware, we have not yet got Thursday's debate and therefore I am relying on hearsay as to what he said but I have not been able to find anyone who was able to relate to me that the Minister gave any reason for the extension of this period and I think the Minister ought to give a reason now.

I hope I am in order when I say that we are now discussing the extension of the period from three years to five years. Is that correct?

If the amendment which the Minister has put in is accepted, will not this mean that whereas previously the position was that a person who died in the third year after he had transferred his property would have paid the full rate of duty, under the amendment, in the third year, he will now pay 15 per cent less than he would have paid originally in the case of the three-year period? So, if I am correct in thinking so, surely this is an improvement by 15 per cent on the law as it originally stood? Am I incorrect in that?

Incorrect.

As affecting the third year.

Not as affecting the fifth year.

I appreciate the point that is being made.

(Cavan): I am against section 24 as it stands and I am in favour of the amendment proposed by Deputy O'Higgins, for a number of reasons. The effect of section 24, as drafted, is to extend the estate duty net and extend it considerably. I do not think that it is in the interests of the country as a whole. Thinking people here for some time past have come to the conclusion that we should encourage wealthy foreigners to come and settle here and spend their money here. This section will have the opposite effect as it now stands. Under this section we will be putting people dying here on a less favourable basis than those dying in Northern Ireland. On this topic of gifts inter vivos, we will be placing them on the same level as people remaining in England. Therefore, there is nothing at all to be gained or there is no hope of encouraging people from either Northern Ireland or England to come here in order to gain the benefits of more favourable estate duty laws.

Secondly, I object to the section as drafted and I am in favour of the amendment because I think the section is, in effect, retrospective legislation. I know that it only affects people who die after the passing of this Bill and I also know that where the gift was made three or four years before the passing of the Bill, it will not be affected. But, what about the man who, two years ago, in all good faith and having been fully advised on the law as it then stood, made a gift of fairly substantial property to his son and dies a month after this Bill becomes law? He is going to be caught. That is retrospective legislation because it is saying to that man, "When you made your deed two years ago the law was that three years were sufficient to exempt you from estate duty but we are now going to say that, although you thought that would be the law in three years time, from the date on which you made the settlement, it is not the law".

A man who, two years ago, transferred substantial property to his son would have incurred substantial expense in doing so. He would have paid substantial stamp duty. He would have paid considerable legal expenses. If I am correct in my thinking, the State will hold on to the stamp duty and still force him to pay estate duty, just as if the deed had never been drawn or the stamp duty had never been paid, notwithstanding the fact that he lives for three years from the date on which he made the deed two years ago.

I say that is unfair. I go further and say it is unjust. I certainly think it is nothing short of retrospective legislation. If this section is brought into force, and I can see no good reason for bringing it into force, we shall be taking a retrograde step. I think we should be getting away altogether from estate duty. We should be preparing to abolish it rather than going ahead, as is suggested here in this section, preparing to further enlarge the net and collect more estate duty. If this section is necessary, if it is insisted upon, then it should affect only gifts made after the coming into operation of this Act. Otherwise, it will be retrospective legislation. I have heard retrospective legislation denounced not only from these benches but by Deputy Booth, and other responsible Deputies, on the opposite side of the House. A stand should be taken now against this and the Minister should be compelled to withdraw the provisions of this section.

I would not agree fully with Deputy Fitzpatrick on this particular point, though I am, as he knows and the Minister knows, very much opposed to full-scale retrospective legislation. I am not as opposed to this extension of the period from three to five years on that particular ground, but I still see no good reason for the introduction of this proposal. As I said on Second Reading, it is more than noteworthy that the Minister has not given any estimate of the probable increase in revenue as a result of this extension in the period in relation to gifts inter vivos. The only information available to him was that the total value of gifts inter vivos which became taxable in the last accounting year was something in the region of £400,000.

Now, the death duty payable on gifts of that value would probably not exceed £10,000 which, to my mind, is a negligible figure in such a Budget. If we go on then to the Minister's suggested amendment, whereby the rate of estate duty will be scaled down during the third, fourth and fifth year, we find that the duty for the third year is reduced by 15 per cent. If my figures are anything like correct, and the estate duty in the last accounting year on gifts inter vivos was about £10,000, this amendment of the Minister would reduce that figure probably to about £8,000. It is reducing the receipt to the Revenue.

Reductio ad absurdum!

Yes. Against that, we have a possible increase in revenue at a slightly reduced rate for the fourth and fifth year. This seems to me to be far too problematical for us to consider it seriously at all. I do not see that there is any indication that it will increase the revenue in any way. It will undoubtedly increase the cost, the trouble involved and the expenditure of time in the administration of estates and the calculation of estate duty. I would earnestly plead with the Minister to reconsider this at this stage, not only on the grounds I have mentioned, but also on the ground put forward by Deputy Sweetman, of the desirability of keeping ourselves as nearly in line as possible with Northern Ireland. This is not a time at which we can discourage people with capital from coming to live and even to die here. We want capital. We should encourage it. I am afraid this kind of proposal will act as a discouragement. If there is any categorical reason why this provision should go forward, I would be fully prepared to go with it, but, as it stands, it seems to me we are still awaiting a really cogent reason for it, and I would hope that, between now and Report stage, the Minister would reconsider the whole thing and give us some indication that he might be prepared to leave the period as it stands at present.

I am indeed very pleased that Deputy Booth spoke on the other side of the House before me because he made the very plea to the Minister that I now propose to make. As a rural Deputy, it is important, I think, that we should know what really happens in agricultural life. This section proposes to increase from three to five years the period within which a person must dispose of his property in order to avoid payment of death duties. The Minister has stated that the only reason for the provision is to bring us into line with neighbouring countries. Circumstances in this country are peculiarly different from those of our neighbours in that we are peculiarly an agricultural country. I appeal to the Minister now, in company with Deputy Sweetman, my colleagues on this side of the House and Deputy Booth on the other side, to reconsider this section from the point of view of our being, in general and in particular, an agricultural community.

In other spheres of debate here, we have argued that farmers hold on to their possessions too long and take too long to bequeath their property to their children. In the name of commonsense, will this section help to improve the present position? If the Minister believes it is desirable that we should keep in line with neighbouring countries, I suggest to him that, as an agricultural community, and for the sake of logic, we should give to our farming community the same facilities by way of abatement of rates as people in neighbouring countries enjoy. That would be a very wise step. I appeal to the Minister, as a Corkman and as, I hope, a sensible man—there are very few here who are not sensible—to delete this section.

I was asked to make certain categorical statements by Deputy Sweetman. I want to make one at the outset. There is no element of retrospection in this Bill in relation to death duties generally. Death duties, as Deputy Sweetman pointed out, are applicable as of the date of death following enactment. The proposition here generally is exactly the same as hitherto. There is no new element whatsoever in this Bill.

Oh yes, there is.

In relation to the five years.

I want now to answer Deputy Sweetman's categoric questions. First of all, is there any money in it? I shall answer that as categorically as I can. In this Bill I propose to give certain new reliefs. I said in my Budget Statement, or, if not in the Budget Statement, certainly on the introduction of this Bill, that I propose to finance these reliefs by tightening up tax evasions.

Avoidance.

I am sorry; I am always mixing up these two.

I was shocked to see I had fallen into the same trap in 1955.

I am not suggesting that the extension of the three-year period to five is tightening up but it is one of the means which will enable me to give reliefs to widows and children of deceased persons. When we come to these sections, I hope to demonstrate to the House that there will be considerable reliefs in that context. The net value to the Exchequer is very difficult to determine but it lies somewhere between £30,000 and £50,000.

For the three to five years?

Yes. There is this social aspect to it: a person who, by the sweat of his brow, earns money is obliged to pay tax on it but the person who falls into property by way of a free gift should also be obliged to pay tax on that property. I think it is socially desirable to provide that the person who is obliged to pay tax on the money he earns should be in no worse position than the person who gets money by way of a gift.

I am talking about people who save money.

The people who save the money are able to give the gift. Assume that an estate is valued for £75,000 before the gift is given ...

Let us come down to realistic figures.

Take an average estate, say, £10,000 or £12,000.

Let us say, then, an estate of £10,000. If somebody gives away £6,000 of his estate of £10,000 as a gift, he is left with £4,000 so that his estate is not liable to duty at all.

He has also got to live for three years.

When the gift is dealt with inter vivos. When the person dies, it is assessed at £10,000, but the person who receives the gift of £6,000 is obliged to pay duty on that gift. The person who receives the money by way of gift is as liable in social justice to pay tax on that money as the person who sweats to earn it.

Assume that that estate of £10,000 consists of a house which, in these days, could be valued for £5,000, without being a very large house, £1,000 worth of furniture and effects, and £4,000 in cash. Let us assume that it goes, as it generally does in this country, to a widow with dependent children. How can they possibly pay estate duty out of their share? They will not have any ready cash. An estate of £10,000 is not a large estate in these days. We are not dealing in this country with people who have an estate of £75,000 or more. Here estates of £10,000 or £12,000 are the more usual. Could the Minister not give some minimum value below which the estate duty will not apply?

The example which Deputy Norton has taken is a good one for my purposes. The reliefs I propose to give from the extension from three to five years and the other increased income I seek will relieve that widow and those children of the payment of death duty.

That is not so. How many children?

If there are one or two children, it will relieve her of the payment of death duty.

I can go into the figures of it at a later stage. Substantially, there will be relief for the kind of case that Deputy Norton refers to. In some respects, our estate duty provisions are more favourable than those in the North of Ireland. There they include no relief by reference to blood relationship such as we have here. If I am wrong in that, I can be corrected, but my instructions are that there is no relief.

There is no relief because they have no estate or succession duty at all. I have all the figures here.

I am not certain that in the North of Ireland the three years period would not be extended.

Pigs might fly.

Due to the interruptions, I have lost my train of thought.

I am sorry.

I am not blaming the Deputy but I had a sequence of thought mapped out and due to the many questions asked I have forgotten it. Take the case of a big estate and somebody lops off a big proportion of it, say, up to £100,000, then the rate of duty decreases. If a person takes a goodly slice off that estate, it depresses the value of the estate and also depresses more than proportionately the amount of duty the State can get from it. By treating the gift as inter vivos, the State gets its fair share of it.

Deputy Fitzpatrick mentioned the question of attracting foreigners into this country. As I said in my reply to the Second Reading debate, I was rather attracted by the suggestion that we were cutting our own throat with the estate duty knife but now I do not think it follows at all. Not only must a person coming to this country change his residence but he must change his domicile as well. And that is only one aspect of it. He must also change his investments to get them into this country and there is no certainty that he will do that. We may not have the same widespread opportunities here for the investment of large sums of money as such people would have in other countries so there is no certainty that they are going to invest their assets here. The people who follow low tax rates have no particular affinity for any one country over another. There is no certainty that the abolition of death duties here would attract that kind of wealth to this country, particularly that kind of wealth that could be used for the economic development of this country.

There is the other argument that these death duties are estimated to be worth over £4 million. It might be a question of live horse. The grass might never grow and these investments might never come. Then we would be obliged to make up for the £4½ millions we would have to find for the Exchequer by way of taxation in other directions.

To pursue that point one step further, we are still, even with these extensions, much more favourably placed as far as death duties are concerned than most other European countries and certainly than the United States. In practically all the other European countries, they operate a gift tax, apart altogether from an inheritance tax. The exceptions to that in Europe, the countries that do not operate a gift tax as well as an inheritance tax, are Belgium, Norway and Portugal. By and large, all the others have death duty impositions much more onerous than we have. Their gift inter vivos period in some cases is up to ten years, and in some cases they have this gift tax operating as well. In fact, they have it in most cases.

In addition, they have the capital tax, which we have not got. I do not think, even with this extension to five years, with the other provisions in the Bill, we are putting ourselves in an appreciably worse position vis-à-vis other countries to the extent that we are going to divert capital and investment or that we will fail to attract capital and investment.

There is not in relation to this discussion anything in the nature of what we normally understand as being anti-avoidance. This is a straight issue as to whether the period of time is to be five years or three years.

The Minister's statement that Northern Ireland has no differentiation in relation to blood relationship as we have here could be allied, I am afraid, to his remark about pipe smokers and tobacco. There is only in Northern Ireland, Britain and here, and only ever was, one type of differentiation in relation to blood relationship, and that is in regard to legacy and succession duty. There never was any blood relationship differentiation in estate duty. In Northern Ireland, they have had the good sense to abolish legacy and succession duty. It is true to say, perhaps, they have no blood relationship differentiation because they have abolished the tax altogether.

We have an additional legacy duty and succession duty category of five per cent for brothers and their issue and ancestors and ten per cent for strangers in blood. Apart from that lower duty and because of the absence of legacy and succession duty, an estate between £10,000 and £12,500 with us here bears six per cent estate duty and with them up there, bears five per cent; an estate between £12,500 and £15,000 with us bears eight per cent duty, and with them bears six per cent duty; an estate between £15,000 and £17,500 with us bears ten per cent, and with them bears seven per cent; an estate between £17,500 and £20,000 with us bears 12 per cent, and with them bears eight per cent. As I said, right up to an estate of £100,000, their estate duty rates are between three per cent and four per cent lower than ours.

Just one correction. From £85,000 to £100,000, we are three per cent less.

The Minister is perfectly right. I should have said up to £85,000, and not up to £100,000. But that is not the whole story by any means. We are an agricultural country. A very large part of the property that here suffers extra duty consists of agricultural land. Agricultural land in Britain and Northern Ireland has a rebate of 45 per cent of the duty involved. In Northern Ireland, as in Britain, agricultural land is taxed at only 55 per cent of its value. I will admit quite frankly that I did not realise until the other day, when I was having some discussions on the Second Reading of this Bill, that the agricultural land rebate which applies in England applies also in Northern Ireland. It means, therefore, that if one takes into account the agricultural land rebate, the differentiation is far greater than the three per cent in estate duty I have spoken about, is greater because of the absence of succession and legacy duty and the five and ten per cent categories, and that there is in fact no comparison in relation to death duties between the Six Counties and the Twenty-six Counties. There is an overwhelming advantage for anybody in going to settle up in the North.

I cannot see why the Minister should accentuate further that very unpleasant differentiation there is against us. We have a position here at present in which agricultural land has risen in value to such an extent that a farm of 100 acres in Deputy Norton's constituency and mine is worth perhaps £20,000. I am speaking of a residential farm with very good buildings into which a lot of money has been put. If the equivalent were taken in Northern Ireland, it would be valued at only £12,500 and, accordingly, would qualify at the five per cent rate. Down here it would qualify at the 12 per cent rate. That is assuming, which of course is nonsense, that there is no stock on the land at all.

The position in relation to death duties is that we have gone step by step wrong with the people in Belfast and the Minister is accentuating that and making it far worse now in this Bill. I do not believe for one instance that the percentage of the anti-avoidance amount that the Minister is going to collect by the extension from three to five years will be anything worth while in considering the total Budget and the total amount to be raised by this Bill. I do take the view, and in this I want to express myself as categorically opposed to a view I heard the Minister express last Friday night, that we need all the capital that we can get in here. We must get all the capital we can get in here and to suggest that anybody can live away from here if he does not like our laws and take his capital with him is cutting off our nose to spite our face.

We are not going to get that capital. We should do it by an extension of the provisions of section 21 of the Finance Act, 1956, which was a tentative first trial but which has proved successful in attracting money to many of the new issues. We should do it to ensure that we are not taking money out of agriculture at the same time as the general budgetary bill is trying to pump money into agriculture. It is quite indefensible, with the pattern we have here of the head of the family naturally wanting one of his children to succeed him in the family home, that we should have a higher rate absolutely for death duties in respect of that home and that we should also refuse to give the 45 per cent remission which agricultural land is given in the North. There is no excuse for it; it is regressive and retrogressive, and it is going to mean in the long run that people, where they have the option, will settle on the other side of the Border and utilise the capital they bring for the benefit of the extension of that part of the country rather than for this part.

Let us be quite clear: this is not only a question of a rich man bringing in his money. We all know that in many cases where a factory is to be set up depends upon where the mainspring of that factory, if it is a proprietary business, wants to live. He is obviously going to choose the place which suits him better from the point of view of his personal fortunes as well as from the industrial point of view. This is not the time or the place to argue the comparison between our industrial incentives and those they have up there, but it is the place to argue in relation to the personal incentive and the Minister is making it a personal disincentive towards getting that capital, that know-how by the extension in this particular section.

With regard to the points made about our farmers being in a worse position vis-à-vis death duties compared with farmers in the North of Ireland, one must take the whole economic being of the farmers into account in this respect. In this part of Ireland, farmers do not pay income tax. They are——

(Cavan): In Northern Ireland they do not pay rates.

We have 65 per cent at least abatement of rates on agricultural land in this part of the country and this is a not inconsiderable help, but farmers, no matter how much money they make from their land, do not have to pay income tax. They are taxed under Schedule A which is related to the valuation put on the land, under a system which is nearly 100 years old. The farmers here are in that very much more advantageous position than their counterparts north of the Border. When it comes to the question of attracting big estates to this country, people with a lot of money, whose investments would be of value to us, first of all, no matter who invests money in our National Loans or similar securities have their investments tax free anyway, but when it comes to attracting big estates, we are still in a very favourable position. I do not know what Deputy Norton would call a big estate but this idea of attracting big people——

I was more concerned about small estates, the people in the £20,000 to £25,000 category and not the person with £1 million or £2 million.

Whatever Deputy Norton says, I am sure most people when they talk about attracting wealth must think in terms of £100,000.

This is like the pipe smokers.

We are told about the very wealthy people who would come here if there were no estate duty or if there were preferential treatment for them. Deputy Sweetman read out his categories and of course stopped where it suited him. I will read on, however. As far as the attracting of real wealth is concerned——

The really big money, over £100,000.

On £100,000, the duty here is still 37 per cent as against 45 per cent in Britain and 40 per cent in the North.

The agricultural scale in Britain is 27.5 per cent.

On £125,000 it is still 40 per cent here, 50 per cent in Britain and 45 per cent in the North. On £125,000 to £150,000, it is still 40 per cent here, 50 per cent in Britain and 50 per cent in the Six Counties. From there on, it is always 40 per cent here, and it rises gradually by roughly five per cent for each £50,000 up to 80 per cent in Britain and the Six Counties on estates valued for £1 million. Therefore, from the point of view of attracting the really wealthy people, we are in a very advantageous position and twice as advantageous in the very high categories as they are in Britain and the Six Counties.

Before the Minister passes from that, would he mind answering one question? Would he not agree that there is much more merit in having ten people with £50,000 than one with £500,000?

It depends on the purposes to which the ten people put their £50,000.

Deputy Sweetman has referred to the agricultural scale, and quite properly, because in this country where there is so much agricultural land and so many farms, it is of tremendous significance. However, it is well to remind the House that in Britain there is a similar rebate of duty in relation to ordinary business and business property. In England, in respect of the property of a businessman which passes on death, the duty is 55 per cent of the normal rate. That does not apply here. Here, not only is there the liability for income tax in life but for the full rate of duty on death. That is a factor that should be considered.

I notice, Sir, that we have ranged into a discussion on this provision which would, perhaps, be more appropriate on other amendments. I shall get back to the amendment before the House—that the liability to estate duty in relation to gifts inter vivos should be confined to a period of three years. In that respect, I do not think the Minister has in any way answered the point which we suggest is a social need at the moment. It has always been desirable, but more so now than ever before, that there should be encouragement by State policy to have property passed or transferred from old hands into young hands. That has always been recognised but is more applicable now than ever before. The Minister has not attempted to deal with that.

An omission; I am sorry.

The Minister's view earlier that the extension to five years was desirable is, I suggest, entirely incorrect. This will dampen down transfers of property and this, in turn, will have a very bad, far-reaching effect. The Minister went on to say it was only right that since a person who earned his livelihood by the sweat of his brow was taxed, a person who gets a gift of property should also be taxed. That is an argument which suggests that all gifts should be taxed. We have not got to that stage yet and I do not know whether in the next Finance Bill the Minister will bring in such a proposal. However, we cannot deal with it here because it is not the law, nor is it an accepted viewpoint.

Nobody suggests that merely because a person gets a gift, he should pay tax or duty on it. In relation to transfers of property, the question we have to consider and bear in mind is whether the disposition of property should be encouraged or not. It appears desirable, if you are to get a smoothly running economy, a sustained effort of production on the farm or in business, that people should freely be encouraged, by family settlements, by proper, sensible arrangements made in the vigour of good health, to arrange things to the general satisfaction of the social unit, be it in the family or in business. This should be done at a stage which can be best decided by the people who run the farm or the business. They are the people who can best decide when a transfer of management should take place.

If we encourage that, surely it is in the best interests of the nation. We shall be mobilising national effort into better production, so badly needed at the moment. In this section we have a residue from the last century, a pettifogging taxation system enshrined in the earliest death duty provisions, now revived in the Ireland of 1965 when our circumstances rebel against this mode of taxation. I cannot add anything more. It must be obvious to a large number of Deputies that this is a retrograde step to the last century. In the Finance Bill of 1965, we are inserting a bit of pure Victoriana.

While Deputy O'Higgins was speaking, I worked out figures in respect of a very ordinary case here and in the North. A residential farm of, say, 120 acres in the midlands would be worth £120,000. The stock on that would, at present prices, be worth £6,000. Furniture, implements and perhaps a little working capital would amount to £3,000— a total of £130,000. Duty payable here on that family unit would be £5,400. Duty paid on the same family unit in the North would be £2,100. The Minister is taking £3,300 more out of that family unit, a farm of about 120 acres in Meath or Kildare, than would his counterpart in the North. The figures I have given are not exaggerated in the least. They speak for themselves.

Deputy Sweetman's point is of more general application than the amendment before us, so I do not propose to follow him on it at the moment. On the points raised by Deputy T.F. O'Higgins, I still adhere to the point of view I expressed the other day—that the extension of the three-year period to five years would stimulate a quicker transfer of property from a father to a son or other member of the family. As I feel sure Deputy O'Higgins knows, the expectation of life is getting longer fairly steadily. People nowadays reaching 60 or 65 years feel they have at least another five or ten years. If they are to allow younger people to enjoy gifts inter vivos, they will be encouraged by the five-year period to give the younger person an earlier opportunity to apply new ideas, fresh thinking, to the running of the farm or business. I still adhere to the point of view I expressed earlier that far from slowing down the transfer of farms or businesses at a sufficiently early stage, this provision will stimulate it.

(Cavan): The Minister has said that in extending the three-year period to five years, we are only keeping up with other countries. It is a five-year period in England but there is no guarantee that it will be so in Northern Ireland soon. Our ideas should be more modern in this respect than those of either England or Northern Ireland. We have embarked on a policy of law reform but I think it is a policy of law reform for the sake of reform—that we are merely following what is going on in other countries. That is not good policy. We should reform our laws here to suit our own needs and not slavishly follow what is going on in England.

A typical example of slavishly following other countries is the Succession Bill which came into the House without the Minister knowing what was required to suit the needs of the country. Section 24 is yet another example. Therefore, I think that the Minister's case on that is unsound.

The next thing the Minister said is that this is a gift and that, because it is a gift, a person should pay a tax on it just as he would pay a tax on some money he earns. The case we are talking about here, by and large, is a gift from a father to a son—the handing on of a family farm or family business by the father to the son. I think that should be encouraged and not penalised. I think it is altogether different from a gift from a complete outsider to a stranger. Would the Minister be prepared to make any concession in the case of a transfer from a father to a son or from a husband to a wife? Does he want to catch in this net the gifts of family farms or family businesses made by fathers to sons or by husbands to wives? I think that, if he does, he is wrong. He is following a bad example if he follows that of countries such as Northern Ireland and England which have not the same conditions, as Deputy Barry said, as prevail here in rural Ireland.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand".
The Committee divided: Tá, 62; Níl, 49.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Boylan, Terence.
  • Brady, Philip.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Davern, Don.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fahey, John.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzpatrick, Thomas J.
  • (Dublin South-Central).
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Foley, Desmond.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, Hugh.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, James J.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lenihan, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Burke, Joan T.
  • Burton, Philip.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Fitzpatrick, Thomas J. (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary).
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lindsay, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • Lyons, Michael D.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, Patrick.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.K.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Treacy, Seán.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Geoghegan and Donnchadh Ó Briain; Níl, Deputies L'Estrange and T. Dunne.
Question declared carried.

I take it that that decision governs amendments Nos. 10, 23, 31 and 35.

There is a slightly different point in one. We can take it as we meet it.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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