On the Adjournment, Deputy Clinton gave notice that he would raise the subject matter of Question No. 209 on last Thursday's Order Paper.
Adjournment Debate. - Clondalkin (Dublin) Vocational School.
I left the house last Thursday at about ten minutes to five and at that stage I thought the House was going to adjourn at 5 o'clock, but apparently it was decided to sit until 5.30 to continue Question Time. In this way, the question which I thought would not be reached was in fact reached and answered by the Minister. I had another appointment at 5 o'clock and I left to keep that appointment. If I had been here, perhaps I would have been able to deal with the Minister's reply by way of supplementary questions. I had not got that opportunity and consequently I was forced to ask permission to raise the matter on the Adjournment. It is no pleasure to me to bring the Minister back here tonight and certainly it is no pleasure to me to be here having been here all day discussing the Housing Bill.
I do not believe that if the Minister really knew the history of this proposal in relation to the building of a vocational school in Clondalkin, he could possibly have given me the answer which he did give me. I asked him if it was a fact that the County Dublin Vocational Education Committee had been instructed by his Department not to proceed with the building of a vocational school at Clondalkin because of a shortage of money at present. The Minister replied that that is not so and he went on to say:
My Department has informed the County Dublin Vocational Education Committee that the proposal for the building of the school must be considered in conjunction with the result of a survey which I have instituted in relation to the existing provision for post-primary education throughout the country and the needs which must be met in particular areas.
I submit to the Minister that the building of a vocational school in Clondalkin has long gone beyond the proposal stage. Unfortunately to some extent I am responsible for this idea of a survey because I remember going to see the Department in relation to the purchase of a site at Walkinstown and we had a discussion about this and the desirability of providing more vocational schools in the county. I said that I felt we were not providing anything like the number of vocational schools we needed in Dublin and that it called for a complete survey of the area, bearing in mind the factors which would influence where vocational schools would be required.
I am afraid that the Department seized upon this and every proposal that we have made since has received this sort of answer. Even when it is more than obvious that an area needs a vocational school and that it is not going to interfere with any other vocational school or any other school, we get this answer which I feel is nothing more than a delaying tactic and a brake on expenditure. If the Minister was honest enough to say to me: "We have not got the money", I would not mind. With the consent of his predecessor, we purchased a site in Clondalkin about seven years ago. Four years ago, with the permission of the Department, we started planning and we had an immense amount of difficulty getting these plans through the Department. I am not suggesting that the fault was all on the Department's side but it was not unusual for the plans to be held in the Department for two, three or even as many as four months before certain queries came back to us.
I was not satisfied, as a member of the vocational education committee, that our architect was doing his job as fast, or perhaps as well, as he should do it, but the fact is that we proceeded to the point where we got the plans fully agreed by the Department and where we were told by the Department: "You can go and get tenders." We got the tenders. We went to some trouble going through those tenders, discussing them with the architect and deciding on the tender to be selected. The lowest tender was selected and agreed and we reached the point where we had even appointed a clerk of works. When we told the Department that we had reached this point of looking for the money to sign the contract and proceed, we got this sort of communication back:
With further reference to your Committee's proposal to provide a new Vocational School at Clondalkin, the Minister for Education directs me to refer to the speech which he made when introducing the Estimates for his Department in the Dáil on 16th June, 1965, and, in particular, to the following paragraph of that speech;
and this is in inverted commas——
At a further level in the academic ladder it may be questioned whether the frequent juxtaposition of secondary and vocational schools does not, through avoidable duplication, occasionally result in some loss in teaching power and a failure to utilise existing resources to the full. Is there some room in some places for a certain amount of bilateralism? This is a problem that calls for consideration but it is one that can only be resolved by a readiness on the part of all concerned to join forces in a spirit of co-operation for the benefit of our children.
The letter goes on to say:
With the object of ensuring that avoidable duplication will not in future occur, and that the fullest and best use will be made of available resources, the Minister has decided that all proposals for the provision of additional facilities for post-primary schooling must be considered in the light of a general survey of the existing provision throughout the country for post-primary education, and the requirements which must be met in particular areas. This survey has already been instituted and pending its completion in so far as the Clondalkin area is concerned, sanction for the execution of the work on the proposed school must be withheld.
I ask the Minister: Have we gone crazy altogether? Clondalkin is a community of 10,000 people. On one side of it, we have Ballyfermot which is two-and-a-half to three miles away. We are building a vocational school in Ballyfermot which will be totally inadequate for the population there. We have a small school in Rathcoole two miles away and it is overcrowded. We have no vocational schools nearer than those in the city and it is impossible to get into these schools.
The Department and the Minister allowed us to proceed and to go to all this trouble and expense over the years and now we get back this type of answer which I am at a loss to describe. It certainly is not an answer worthy of the Minister. If the Minister said honestly: "We are embarrassed now; we have not got the money, but as soon as it becomes available—and we hope that will be soon—we shall let you proceed to build a school but you cannot just sign the contract now." But that is not the answer. We have instead the sort of answer that really means nothing in the light of the position in which we find ourselves in Clondalkin and in the light of the position in which the people of the area find themselves.
I have brought the Minister back tonight; that is no pleasure to me, but I feel I have a duty and responsibility to my constituents in the area to get something more adequate than the reply I got from the Minister the other day. I can only describe it as dishonest and misleading. I should be very anxious to hear what the Minister has to say now.
First I should deal with Deputy Clinton's allegation that the reply he received from me the other day was dishonest. He thinks the reply I should have given was that we did not have the money. Has it occurred to Deputy Clinton that the Government have issued a White Paper in regard to the capital development programme, stating how we must cut down and why we must do so, and that it would have been very much simpler to have replied to the question by referring the Deputy to this and saying that pending the improvement in the financial position of the country, this project must be deferred? Rather than give that reply, I chose, as I think I am obliged to do, to give the honest answer and not the dishonest answer suggested by Deputy Clinton.
The truth of the matter is that if we had unlimited millions of pounds available tomorrow morning for the building of vocational schools, Deputy Clinton would have got the same answer as he got last Thursday. It is clear from what the Deputy said that he does not quite understand what is involved. I cannot blame him; it is very difficult to communicate exactly what is involved to the House and to the country generally. In that connection, I might mention that I am shortly sending out to every vocational committee and every secondary school a circular endeavouring to explain what we are doing, what we aim to achieve and how we aim to do it, some of the difficulties we expect to encounter and suggestions as to how we might tackle them.
That will give you six months more.
Perhaps I had better say it again. It is no problem to say we have not got money but that is not the true answer. Deputy Clinton does not understand what is happening in post-primary education. He talks about vocational schools and secondary education. What I want to make clear is that we have to think in terms of post-primary education. Deputy Clinton is aware of the fact, I presume, that a start will be made next autumn to have vocational schools provide courses leading to the Intermediate Certificate——
I am well aware of that.
I presume the Deputy is also aware that a vast number of children leave the national schools and do not get any further education, in fact about one-third on the national scale. I want to make provision for these and see that all our children get post-primary education, and in order to do so that, we must ensure that we have the schools and teachers, all the facilities that are involved in the way of science laboratories, teachers and so on. In the past our post-primary system grew up haphazardly. It has served us well but we have now reached the stage where we have approximately 900 post-primary schools spread throughout the country and we must ask ourselves where do we go from here. One aim is to provide post-primary education for all the children. To do that, or to have any hope of doing it, and to have any sense of responsibility to the tax-payers in doing it, we must ensure that all our existing facilities are used to the full.
I do not dispute what Deputy Clinton said about the pressure on vocational schools in his area. It may be the secondary schools in his area are under equal pressure.
Absolutely.
I do not know. It may be that there are some which are not under that pressure and that we can partially meet the problem in the area by utilising some space which might be available in some primary schools.
You have pre-fabs for your primary schools.
If one wants to tackle this problem in any realistic way, one must stop and see what we are trying to do and where we go from here. One must see what one has got and what is needed. Deputy Clinton would have us go ahead and build this school without any regard to what is coming in the next few years. It is quite possible that as a result of the survey to which I have referred today, we shall say to the vocational committee of which Deputy Clinton is a member: "This school should be twice or three times as big and should have the following facilities"——
It is so long ago that I agree with the Minister.
But before we say that, we want to ensure that the existing facilities will be used to the full.
Where are they?
If the Deputy will put on his thinking cap, I believe he will find there are methods by which he can get much greater use out of the facilities there at present. It is being done in other parts of the country. The point I want to make is that we want to approach this matter on a planned national basis and that is what we are doing. Deputy Clinton should remember that Clondalkin is not the only place with this problem. The same situation is arising throughout the country. I know this is very frustrating for people who have been working for years to get plans through. I understand that, but I ask them to consider the long-term interests of the children. Are we to do a patchwork job or do it right to the fullest extent of the resources which we can put into education? If we are to do that, we must plan. I understood Deputy Clinton's Party had been converted to some extent to planning. This, I am afraid, is one of the drawbacks of planning: somewhere you have to draw the line and consider where you are going——
Is this generation to be left without educational facilities while you are planning?
No generation will be left without educational facilities.
That is what is happening in Clondalkin.
I did not interrupt the Deputy while he was speaking. I hope he will extend the same courtesy to me. I want to make it clear that this is part of an overall plan and is in no sense an effort to fob off committees or the necessity to incur capital expenditure. There is no secret about the fact that we must cut down capital expenditure. It would be much simpler to give that answer but it would not be true. The truth is that we are trying to develop our post-primary education on a planned basis. One must pay a certain price for doing that, but in the long term our children will gain very much as a result of what we suffer in the short term. I trust Deputy Clinton will be able to see that. I feel convinced that he will see it, and while I do not expect him to tell me he has seen the truth, I think he is honest enough to say it to himself when he does see what happens.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.50 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 28th October, 1965.