Deputy Dunne has given notice that he wishes to raise the subject matter of Question No. 23 on the Order Paper for 21st October last.
Adjournment Debate. - County Dublin Housing Schemes.
Mr. Dunne
The question I had on the Order Paper on that day asked the Minister for Local Government if he is aware
that Dublin County Council on 13th September 1965 passed the necessary resolution to raise loans for the erection of urgently required local authority houses at (a) Swords, 152 houses at a cost of £364,000, (b) Lucan, forty houses at a cost of £101,000, (c) Ballyboden, twenty-four houses at a cost of £67,000, and (d) Rathcoole, five houses at a cost of £11,000 making a total of 221 houses at a cost of £543,000; and that it was announced at a meeting of the County Council held on 11th September 1965 that the loans in respect of the Swords housing scheme have not been sanctioned; and when it is proposed to sanction these loans.
His reply was:
The Dublin County Council's request for my approval to the raising of the loans referred to in the question was received in my Department on 17th September, 1965, and is being dealt with in the normal way.
I expressed dissatisfaction with the reply and, with your kind permission, I am raising the matter on the Adjournment this evening. I may say I also talked to other Deputies in relation to it and indicated to each of my colleagues present here—Deputies Clinton, Foley and Burke—that in accordance with custom, I should have 20 minutes to deal with this matter and I offered each of them a period of five minutes so that if they wished to join in making a united protest in this connection, they could do so. I should perhaps add that the Minister for Social Welfare inquired today why I did not include him in the invitation. The only explanation for that is that, from my knowledge, he has not been in attendance at many of the scores of housing meetings held in Swords and I took it that he was not as interested in the problem there as the four Deputies now present Therefore I did not invite him along.
The problem in Swords and in the rest of the county in so far as housing is concerned is best described in the colloquial term "chronic", which is very applicable in this connection. It is not a new problem in Swords. It has been developing over a long number of years and it should have been tackled by the county council long before it was tackled. At any rate, after some difficulty, the council made some progress towards the acquisition of a site. I do not think all the requirements of the acquisition have been fulfilled but they are moving along, although the county council were never celebrated for their celerity. The point was reached when an assessment was made of the amount of loans required and a resolution was passed asking the Minister's sanction to the loans.
That resolution was dated 11th September, nearly seven weeks ago. The Minister told me the other day that the application for sanction reached his Department on 17th September and that it was being dealt with in the normal way. I dispute that. The normal way for an application of this kind to be dealt with is to have a decision within a far shorter period than the seven weeks to which I have referred. A couple of weeks should be sufficient at any time and even if this long period of waiting were normal, the situation in Swords is far from normal—152 families, some of whom live 15 to a three-roomed cottage, a number in caravans which had to be supplied by the county council. Generally speaking, desperate housing conditions prevail there. I ask the Minister to tell us that he will without delay sanction these loans. I want to get him to say to us now that he will sanction these loans as applied for without any further delay.
I feel sure the Minister appreciates the urgency of the problem in Swords and in many other areas in County Dublin. I should like to point out also that there are many similar problems in the county, at Malahide, Clondalkin and other areas mentioned by Deputy Dunne in his question, where there is urgent need for houses. While I realise that the present situation does not help the Minister, I wish to say I took that into consideration and now ask the Minister to assure the House that the present shortage of capital will not stop him sanctioning these applications. Deputy Dunne conceded me five minutes of his time but I do not wish to avail of the entire period. I hope the Minister will appreciate the dire need for housing of these families in Swords and that he will accordingly sanction these loans so that building can go ahead as quickly as possible.
I give Deputy Dunne the fullest possible support in his appeal to the Minister to regard the housing situation in Swords as one of great urgency. The Minister is fairly well acquainted with the history of attempts to provide houses at Swords. He knows there has been great difficulty in relation to the acquisition of sites over a number of years and that the provision of houses has been very much delayed. As a result of that long period, the need has built up over the years until at the moment between 152 and 160 houses are urgently required. The agreed figure is 152 and we are anxious to get on as quickly as possible with the building.
There was difficulty in regard to access to the site. An extra strip of land had to be compulsorily acquired to satisfy the Department as to access. There had been access of a kind and I believe the building should have proceeded, but the Minister was not prepared to allow the building to proceed in anticipation of the compulsory purchase of this extra strip of land. The compulsory purchase order application dragged on over a period of two or three years. There was considerable difficulty in relation to acceptance of plans and to planning generally. When we finally got that, we got on with the job. Now, we are in the position of having accepted the lowest tender and are ready to go. At present we have ten families in caravan accommodation. As Deputy Tully said, these caravans are extremely expensive, and they are proving expensive for the unfortunate families in them. In addition, we have a large number of people in sheds in Swords.
This is a disgrace and something the nation should be extremely ashamed of. As has been described by Deputy Dunne, there are three families, a total of fifteen people, in one small house. The housing conditions in Swords are deplorable. It is very unsatisfactory for the Minister to come in here and, in answer to a Parliamentary Question, to say this is being processed in the normal way. This should not be processed in the normal way. This should be regarded as an emergency position and treated with that sort of urgency.
If the money is not there, the Minister should say: "We have not got the money this week or next week, but we will have it before the end of the month." That would allay much of the anxiety that exists out there At the last meeting we attended, we were nearly eaten alive by the people, particularly Deputy Burke. Deputy Burke did say he had been with the Minister and had pleaded with him to provide the necessary money as soon as possible. As far as I could understand, he did give them some hope that the money to get on with the job would be provided within a couple of weeks. I hope what he said was true and that the money will be provided within the next couple of weeks and within the next week, if possible.
I have discussed this matter with my colleague, the Minister for Local Government. He is well aware of this problem and was very embarrassed that he was not in a position to sanction the loan straight away. I know he feels for these people in Swords. A year ago he told us in Dublin County Council to get sites and go ahead and house our people. We were very glad to get the green light from him. I do not want to embarrass him because I am well aware of what he has done and what he is doing. I know I am pushing an open door when I ask him to do something about the position in Swords. That position is due in large measure to the number of industries that have been established there in recent years and also to the proximity of Dublin Airport. Not alone do we need 150 houses there, but we would need that many again in a year's time. Swords is one place we hope to have as a satellite town to the city, or at least as a large residential area with industries attached.
I know the anxiety of the Minister to sanction the scheme in Swords. I do not wish to embarrass him and I got up so that it could not be said I did not speak here for the people of Swords and County Dublin. I want to say to Deputy Dunne that it was a nice gesture on his part to allow us time to speak, even if we did not say all he would have liked us to say. It certainly was a gentlemanly gesture on his part, even if we do not agree at all times.
This loan application was received in my Department on 16th September. It covers in all about £520,000, which is no mean figure coming from any local authority. It is indeed a rather unusual figure to come from County Dublin, of all places. The normal time it takes to process a loan application of any reasonable size, not to mention one of this size, is two to four months. While I am fully aware of the urgency, particularly in Swords—I am doing the best I can to get the Swords scheme sanctioned as early as possible—I still say to the House that the normal time for this processing is two to four months. Deputies can look back over the records and find out whether that is true or not.
The situation in Swords did not develop overnight; it arose over the years. We know no small difficulties were encountered in getting to the contract stage and seeking tenders. So far as the sanction of tenders was concerned, we did the best we could in that regard. We are now processing this loan in the normal time of two to four months. However, as I say, I am doing my best to get the Swords part of it cleared at the earliest possible moment. The amount required in respect of the Swords scheme is almost £350,000. The remaining areas are Lucan, Ballyboden and Rathcoole. These are being gone through and the processing of the loan application is taking place. I want to emphasise again that this is not an unusual lapse of time.
It is possible there would not have been any alarm about this, were it not for the fact that in recent times we have had to direct attention to the regulations which dictate that, before a contract may be signed, loan sanction must be obtained. Up to recently, for reasons known to all of us, these regulations were more honoured in the breach than in the observance. That was at a time when I, as Minister, was asking the local authorities to bring forward their work. The situation during all those years and until this year was that I had at all times available to me more money, or the promise of more money, than I had work for.
The work has built up over the years. The economic circumstances have changed in recent months, at a time of a very high level of expenditure on housing. As a result, a review has been promised in the White Paper on capital spending. This review must take in the projection of our spending in the housing sector of my Department and in every sector of every Department of State. This review will have to be undertaken so that we will have a better understanding and a clearer picture of how the work and the commitments we are undertaking match up to the projected availability of capital. That is the situation in which we are at the moment. I have said already that loans of this magnitude take two to four months. I am doing my best, particularly in relation to Swords, to get sanction at an early date.
Can the Minister give us a date for Swords?
No.
The Minister said two to four months.
Yes.
Two months have passed already.
As near as makes no difference.
Could the Minister not give some estimate then?
No.
Are we to be put off until the full review of the whole financial structure has been carried out?
The financial review need not necessarily take all that time.
The Minister will find it will.
I am hoping it will not.
If the Minister does this for Swords, and the other areas in County Dublin, we will forgive him a number of other sins.
The Dáil adjourned at 5.25 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 9th November, 1965.