Deputy Seán Dunne has given notice he wishes to raise the subject matter of Question No. 39 of 1st February, 1966.
Adjournment Debate. - Ballyfermot (Dublin) Amenities.
In my question on 1st February I asked the Minister for Local Government what progress, if any, had been made towards the provision of swimming pools, community centre and physical culture facilities at Ballyfermot, Dublin. I understand the Ceann Comhairle has ruled that I may raise the question of swimming pools on this occasion. I do not know why he does not permit me to refer to the other matters mentioned in the question. However, for the moment this will suffice. In reply to my question the Minister stated:
The provision of swimming facilities in the Dublin area, including a pool at Ballyfermot, is still under examination ...
I went on to press the Minister on this point. I indicated to him that this area of Ballyfermot—which, I think, I mentioned before in this House —is the most densely-populated working class area in Ireland. It has been said it is bigger than the city of Waterford. The population of Ballyfermot is nearly twice that of Waterford. The estimated population of the Ballyfermot housing scheme is in the neighbourhood of 40,000. It would be reasonable to say that half of these would be children under 17 years of age. I remember I was a black-haired stripling when Ballyfermot was started to be built. That was a long time ago. I was not long out of school, contemplating the road that lay before me. In all that time, almost 25 years, this huge area has lain completely unserviced from the point of view of what can be described as no more than minimal amenities.
As is mentioned in the question, there are absolutely no facilities in that area for a community centre, no place where the people have a right to meet. The De La Salle Brothers occasionally are kind enough to afford the use of their premises for meetings. But there is no municipal meeting place and no public parks as such—no place where the youth can go for gymnastics and, more especially, no swimming pools to which young people can have recourse in summer time. If the youth feel like taking a dip, they have to go to the canal or the seaside. The seaside is distant, and the canal is dangerous. I have long felt that bathing in the canal is something which should not be necessary, but there is no other recourse for the youth of the city than the canal, which is rat-infested and obviously dangerous to the health of any person using it for swimming. I do not think anybody would venture to think of using the Liffey for swimming, although some hardy souls do so annually in the Liffey swim. How they survive, I do not know. I know one person who did it, and he did not get over it for many years.
This question of the urgent need for the provision of a swimming pool at Ballyfermot is a symptom of the neglect which is evident throughout the entire city in the matter of the provision of swimming pools. Any city of a size comparable with Dublin in practically any other country in Europe will be found on examination to have a number of swimming pools for the youth, usually run by the city authorities. In this city of ours, we have two municipal baths, Tara Street and the Iveagh, for a population estimated by the Central Statistics Office at 550,547.
It is not as if this matter has only been raised by me last week. As a matter of curiosity, I went through the Index to the Dáil Debates to see how many times I have raised this before during the past five years. This is apart from the number of times I raised it between 1948 and 1957 in the course of debates here on housing and in answers to questions. For the past five years, I find I have asked Dáil questions in relation to this matter. One was on Thursday, 20th June, 1963, as reported at column 1444 of the Official Report. Here is the quotation:
Swimming Pools.
19. Mr. S. Dunne asked the Minister for Local Government if he is aware of plans for the provision of swimming pools by Dublin Corporation in the districts of (a) Ballyfermot and (b) Walkinstown; and whether he will indicate the location and date of provision of this desirable amenity in the areas named.
This was in 1963. In reply, the Minister said:
I am not aware of any definite plans for the provision of swimming pools by Dublin Corporation in the districts of Ballyfermot and Walkinstown. Plans have been submitted to my Department for the provision of a swimming pool at Crumlin. ...
I asked him, then, if he was aware of the urgent need for the provision of a swimming pool at Ballyfermot and Walkinstown and the Minister indicated that, to a large extent, he agreed with what I had to say. That was on 20th June, 1963.
On 24th October, 1963, as reported at column 288 of the Official Report, I asked the Minister the following question:
Swimming Pools.
60. Mr. S. Dunne asked the Minister for Local Government what steps, if any, are being taken by the local authority to provide adequate swimming pools at Ballyfermot, Walkinstown and other densely populated Dublin suburban districts.
The Minister's reply was much the same as the previous one. It made reference to the prospect of a pool at Crumlin.
The next question I asked was Question No. 39 on 21st April, 1964. It reads as follows:
Dublin Swimming Pools.
39. Mr. S. Dunne asked the Minister for Local Government if he is aware of the need for an adequate swimming pool with lifeguards, for the use of children in Ballyfermot, Dublin; and whether he is aware of any plans for the provision of this amenity.
The Minister's reply was in the same strain. He was aware of the need for increased swimming facilities in Dublin. There was a suggestion of a proposed pool at Crumlin. Dublin Corporation, he said on that date— 21st April, 1964—intend to provide further pools in areas remote from the sea and this was receiving the consideration, he said, of the corporation at that time. I asked the Minister to take an interest in the matter and again mentioned the problem of Ballyfermot and the need for special attention for Ballyfermot because of its population. He said there was no need for him to be asked to do that because, if he had his way, the pools would already be there.
On 9th June, 1965, I again asked the Minister about the matter. Here is the relevant quotation, as reported at column 499 of the Official Report:
Ballyfermot (Dublin) Swimming Pools.
51. Mr. S. Dunne asked the Minister for Local Government what steps, if any, Dublin Corporation are taking to provide swimming pools and an assembly hall at Ballyfermot, Dublin.
The Minister replied as follows:
I understand that the question of providing a swimming pool at Ballyfermot is included as an item in a planned programme for new swimming pools which is in the early stages of investigation by Dublin Corporation, and that the selection of a suitable site for the purpose is receiving attention.
He went on to refer also to that part of my question which had reference to the need for an assembly hall. At any rate, it would appear that, on that date—June of last year—something was happening at long last.
Again, on 28th October, 1965, as reported at column 740 of the Official Report, I asked Question No. 13 and the relevant quotation is as follows:
Dublin Swimming Pools.
13. Mr. S. Dunne asked the Minister for Local Government whether he is satisfied with the present position regarding swimming pools in the Dublin area where only two pools exist to meet the needs of 600,000 people; and, if not, what steps he is taking to remedy this position.
The Minister replied as follows:
I am not satisfied with the present position in Dublin city area. In March last, when I announced details of the £16,000 prototype indoor heated pool, a proposal had been received from the corporation for a pool at Crumlin estimated to cost £164,000.
He said he requested the corporation to reconsider the proposal in the light of the developments regarding the prototype pool and in connection with the suggestion that a number of low-cost pools might be provided for the city area with the minimum delay. He then said that the corporation submitted a proposal for a pool costing £48,750 and that that proposal was under examination. This, I take it, was based on the prototype pool to which he had referred. That was in October of last year.
The other day, on 1st February, 1966, I asked the Minister the sixth question since 1963 — something over two and a half years. As reported at column 509 of the Official Report, the relevant quotation is as follows:
Ballyfermot (Dublin) Amenities.
39. Mr. S. Dunne asked the Minister for Local Government what progress, if any, has been made towards the provision of swimming pools, a community centre and physical culture facilities at Ballyfermot, Dublin.
The Minister replied:
The provision of swimming facilities in the Dublin area, including a pool at Ballyfermot, is still under examination.
I pressed him on that and asked him when he would reach finality in the matter. He said, and this is the most that could be wrung from him:
We will continue the consideration to its conclusion.
That sentence shows what can happen to a man who stays too long with civil servants: it is a classic piece of Civil Service English.
In my view, this shows an absence of a proper appreciation of the urgency of this problem. I suppose the Minister is entitled to say that the corporation have not been doing what they should do in this matter. In so doing, he is, by imputation. criticising his own colleagues on the corporation, as well as the members of all other Parties, and the officials of the corporation. I have not been a member of the corporation and I do not think I should indulge too much in criticism of that body. I am a member of this House, however, and I have raised this matter several times.
The responsibility for the provision of a swimming pool in an area such as Ballyfermot must lie at the Minister's doorstep. While the Minister, in answering my questions, expressed sympathy with the idea, he has taken no definite steps to expedite the provision of this pool. Even last week, he said he was pursuing the consideration to its conclusion. In other words, it is lolling on the job—that is the best description I can apply to it—taking it easy, dallying with it, as if it is a matter of no importance. The approach seems to be "We will get around to it some time".
I want to impress on the Minister that the people in Ballyfermot are entitled to have a swimming pool, staffed by lifeguards who would teach swimming and look after the children who would be using the pool. It is a very simple request. In this area of Ballyfermot is contained a very large segment of the labour pool of Dublin. To a very great extent, Dublin depends on Ballyfermot to keep the wheels of industry going. The least the Government and the Minister might do would be to make an effort in regard to the provision of a swimming pool. I asked him today to give me an assurance that he will get in touch with the corporation and tell them to get on with this job and to let us have a swimming pool in Ballyfermot, for a start, and then to let us wipe out this scandalous situation which exists throughout the city where with a population of over half a million, we have only two small pools which can accommodate only a small fraction of the people who want to make use of them.
I would stress that in Dublin city, with a population of over half a million, we have only two small swimming pools. It is a terrible reflection on the Government and on the City Council that there should be only two swimming pools in Dublin city, each accommodating only 60 to 70 people. These swimming pools are taken up almost exclusively by clubs so that an individual wanting to avail of one of them finds that it is open to the public only for a couple of hours each day. The clubs take over the swimming pools from 6 p.m. These clubs do a wonderful job but only those children who belong to a club can avail to any extent of the swimming pools. There are many clubs on the waiting list who cannot possibly be accommodated. It is a terrible indictment of a Government who profess to do everything in the interests of the people.
The situation is that children in outlying districts such as Ballyfermot, Walkinstown, Drimnagh and Crumlin must bathe in rat-infested canals. Every summer in the holiday season there are drowning tragedies because these children cannot swim.
I have spoken to a number of people in these areas quite recently. One group told me that they anticipated a swimming pool being provided in Crumlin over 20 years ago. These are adults who have never learned to swim and whose children of school-going age have not proper facilities for swimming in this city of well over 500,000 people.
I would ask the Minister to tackle the problem urgently realising that the 17 Fianna Fáil councillors in Dublin Corporation will be assured of the support of the Labour and Fine Gael councillors if they sincerely want to have swimming pools provided in Dublin city.
The question is in relation to Ballyfermot specifically. One can scarcely discuss that matter without also referring to the position in regard to swimming pools generally in Dublin, which has been mentioned here.
The history of swimming pools or rather, the lack of them, in Dublin, goes back a great deal further than even Deputy Dunne has indicated. That the position is as it has been for all these years reflects no credit on anyone, whether it be in this Government or any other Government or in the corporation or in control of affairs down the years when facilities for swimming could have been provided at a particle of the cost of providing a pool today.
A proposal for Crumlin, at £164,000, was the first firm proposal made to this or any other Government in all the years, despite all the talk that has gone on about what should be done. It so happened that, due to my disappointment with the lack of progress in the provision of pools in Dublin or anywhere else, some six or eight months prior to the receipt of that proposal from Dublin Corporation for Crumlin, I had gone down through my Department to try to find a way to provide pools at a somewhat more reasonable cost than the cost of the Crumlin pool and other costs that we had been hearing about from other towns throughout the provinces.
The result was, as the House knows, that we got what could be regarded as probably a utility pool, but at any rate a pool, with a swimming area as big as that proposed for the Crumlin pool in the original plans, that is, a 25 metre indoor heated pool, for a figure which, on the invitation of tenders, proved to be even less than the figure that I had indicated, namely, £16,000. Therefore the first firm proposal for Crumlin, at £164,000, naturally, was called in by way of asking the corporation to reconsider the proposal in the light of the new prototype pool costings that we had arrived at of £16,000 and after some discussions, negotiations, and so forth between corporation officials and officials of my Department, we received on 5th October last a revised pool type and plan costed at £48,000. This, on the face of it, was a very big change from £164,000 and still incorporated a 25 metre pool. But I must say I am disappointed with that figure of £48,000 Though there may be improved finishes, improved ventilation and accommodation and so forth it seems to me, from the non-technical point of view, as being still too high when we consider that basically it will provide nothing more than the type of pool that can be provided for £16,000. I am not going to stick my neck out and say that I am dead right and that the £48,000 pool cannot be chosen but I have this feeling about it.
There was also a decision taken just over a year ago by the Planning and Development Committee of the corporation indicating the various sites where they would wish to have pools. These would be Crumlin, Ballyfermot, Finglas, Cabra, Ballymun, Rathmines, Terenure and Rathfarnham. They have further decided in the City Council that Crumlin would be the first and Finglas second. No order of priorities has yet been arrived at in so far as any of the subsequent pools on that list I have given are concerned. In addition to that, while Ballyfermot is definitely mentioned in this swimming pools programme, no site, to my knowledge, has yet been selected and, as I said, no firm decision has been taken as to the order in which the pools will be built.
There is no limit to the number of sites.
I am not saying that there is; I am just saying that my information is that no site has yet been selected and there has been no decision on the order of priority in the list of seven that Ballyfermot would get. That has not been determined, as far as I know.
Why has it been determined that Crumlin and Finglas should be first?
My information is that Crumlin was first and, added to Crumlin, were the other six centres, and out of these six the City Council decided in May, 1965, that the pool that would be next in order of priority subsequent to or simultaneously with Crumlin would be the Finglas pool and as to the remaining five, no determination has yet been made as to the order of building.
This was a decision taken by a committee of the corporation?
The City Council made a selection of the six additional areas. Those additional to Crumlin, and including Ballyfermot, were approved by the City Council in March, 1965, and the City Council has further approved of the sites at Finglas and Cabra and recommended that a pool be provided at Finglas as a first priority after the Crumlin pool. This is the information as I have it.
What were the people representing Ballyfermot on the corporation doing?
Order. The Minister.
Sorry; I did not mean to interrupt.
It is not terribly important in so far as the overall situation is concerned because it is the overall situation that I am most concerned about. If we take the £48,000 pool as the criterion—it is only as a typical pool that we got it from the corporation on 5th October —but if we take it and I think it would be fair to take it, this £48,000 pool would be the pool regarded as typical in relation to cost. If we multiply £48,000 by seven we get roughly £350,000. My problem will be—but not yet finally determined for the coming year—that I will be faced with the question as to whether I am prepared to make available any part or all of £350,000 for swimming pools, when at the same time, I might as a result of that have to restrict the number of houses it would be possible to build in this city. That is the hard fact I might find myself facing. The House will, I think, be prepared to concede that this does not leave the matter easy of solution for me. We cannot just decide to build swimming pools in Dublin as fast as we can against that background.
The Minister is saying he will restrict the number of houses.
I am saying that, if I am asked for money to the tune of £100,000, £200,000, £300,000 or £250,000 to build seven swimming pools in the city of Dublin—remember, I should like to see these pools provided —then I may have to restrict housing by a similar amount of money. That would be the very difficult problem facing me. The general consensus of opinion would, I am certain, come down heavily on the side of houses.
We are really much worse off then than I thought we were.
We are a million better off than we were last year and last year was a considerable improvement by many millions on the years before. Despite that fact, however, we will not have as much money to spend in the coming year.
There is enormous room for improvement.
We are now discussing housing.
It gives me no pleasure to restrict the building of swimming pools in order not to have to restrict the building of houses.
Let the Minister put his foot down and tell the Government he wants the money.
I have already put my foot down, but to get it is the problem.
The Dáil adjourned at 4.35 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 15th February, 1966.