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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Feb 1966

Vol. 220 No. 12

National Bank Transfer Bill, 1966: Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

To avoid any misunderstanding, I should say at the outset that, while the purpose of this legislation is to facilitate the transfer to a new Irish company, The National Bank of Ireland Limited, of the Irish business of the National Bank, the legislation will become effective only if the shareholders of the National Bank approve by the necessary majority of the proposed transfer.

These two companies signed an agreement on 20 January, 1966 providing for the sale to the Irish company as a going concern as from 31 December, 1965 of all of the under-taking attributable to the business carried on in the State and in Northern Ireland comprising about two-thirds of the bank's total business.

The National Bank was established in 1835 by Daniel O'Connell, its first Governor, to provide a banking network in Ireland. In 1854 an office was opened in London to provide the bank with direct access to the London money market and membership of the London Clearing House. This office became the Head Office and Registered Office in 1882 when the company was incorporated under English Companies Acts. Other branches were opened in England and Wales mainly in centres where customers of Irish birth and descent could be served. The bank is thus essentially an Irish bank but its legal status is that of an English company.

In recent years it had become apparent to the bank that this situation was becoming increasingly difficult to reconcile with present day requirements. The differences between financial and business conditions here and in Britain affect not only a bank's day-to-day business but also official requirements as to liquidity and credit policy. The bank, as a London clearing bank, is obliged to maintain strictly defined liquidity ratios laid down by the British authorities which are not necessarily appropriate to its business in this country. The rapid expansion of the Irish economy in recent years also makes it increasingly desirable that banking business within the State should be more directly under Irish control. For these reasons the Dublin and London boards of the bank had for some time been exploring ways and means of bringing about a division of the bank, so that separate organisations for the two sections could be formed.

The arrangements provide for the purchase by the Bank of Ireland of all the share capital of the new Irish company and the acquisition by the National Commercial Bank of Scotland of the share capital of the reconstituted National Bank which will retain the business in England and Wales. Agreements to this effect have been entered into by the banks concerned. The new Irish company will continue as a separate entity but will be a member of the Bank of Ireland group. The consideration for the acquisition by the Bank of Ireland of the share capital of the new Irish company is £12.2 million—£6.2 million in cash and £6 million in a new issue of Bank of Ireland loan stock. The Scottish Bank will pay £4.75 million for the share capital of the reconstituted National Bank. Total payments to the Bank's existing shareholders will thus be £16.95 million. Nearly two-thirds of this amount will be paid to residents of the State.

The scheme of arrangement, prepared under the English Companies Acts, will require the approval of the shareholders and is being submitted for a decision at a general meeting of the company to be held in London on 24 February, 1966. The necessary resolution will require a 75 per cent majority of the votes cast, each share entitling to one vote. An order of the High Court in London sanctioning the scheme will then be necessary before it becomes effective. The scheme is also expressly conditional on the enactment of legislation in this country not later than 31 March, 1966, substantially in the form of the Bill before the House.

The Government support the proposal to transfer control of a significant part of Irish banking business from Britain to this country. This change is in the public interest. The implementation of official credit policy to suit the requirements of this country will be facilitated. The proposals should also help in the rationalisation of Irish banking and lead to a more economic and efficient service for the community. Finally, the Irish Exchequer will benefit because profits formerly assessed to tax in Britain will in future be assessed to tax here.

Since the early 1960s the rapid rate of growth in the economy and the increase in external trade has encouraged foreign bankers to take a more active interest in the country. Some overseas banks have opened offices in Dublin. The Northern Bank has been taken over by the Midland Bank and a number of merchant banks are now operating here. The Central Bank, in its report for 1964-65, drew attention to this extension by external banks and other financial institutions of their activities to this country and to the undesirability of any substantial growth of external participation and control of Irish banking activities. The transfer of the control of the Irish business of the National Bank is a welcome reversal of this trend.

An alternative possibility considered by the bank was the establishment of a wholly-owned Irish subsidiary company controlled from London but this was rejected as impracticable and inadequate. While such an arrangement would have some of the advantages of the proposed scheme and would solve some of the problems inherent in the present situation it would not have been favoured by the Government because of the maintenance of control from London.

The Bill provides, among other things, for the transfer from the National Bank to the National Bank of Ireland of accounts of customers, of securities held by the bank for loans and advances as well as securities held for safe keeping. It also provides for the transfer of staff and the continuity of their pension rights. The main problem relates to the transfer of secured accounts without disturbing existing priorities where securities are shared by different parties. In the case of overdrawn accounts it would be necessary, in the absence of legislation, to obtain the consent of individual customers to the transfer of accounts and also agreements or letters of consent to the transfer of any securities so as to make them available to cover advances by the new bank.

A stamp duty liability would arise in an artificial way on the arrangement to transfer credit and debit accounts. There is no provision for setting one off against the other. The operation amounts to little more than a bookkeeping transaction. In the circumstances, the charging of duty on the gross amount of loans and advances would not be justified and provision for the exemption is included in the Bill. These considerations do not apply to conveyances of real property and the appropriate duty is being charged on such conveyances.

The Bill, if enacted, will not become effective until an order is made by me. This procedure is necessary so as to ensure that the Act will not come into operation unless the scheme of arrangement is approved by the shareholders. I propose to make an order bringing the Act into operation at the appropriate time in advance of the 31st March, 1966.

I recommend the Bill for the approval of the House.

We on this side of the House in the Fine Gael Party have always been concerned in relation to our banking service and the manner in which credit and credit policy should be controlled in the national interest. Our views in this regard were made abundantly clear in the last general election. It is proper to point out that an effort was made in the course of that election to suggest that there was something inimical to the national interest in our credit and banking policy. It is worth recalling the unfounded allegations made in that regard by the present Government Party when we find today, in seeking support for this Bill, that the Minister suggests, very properly, that this Bill is necessary in the national interest to ensure that the direction and control of credit within the State should be strengthened. That is an important aspect of the Bill that should commend itself to the House.

As the Minister has pointed out, there is some danger in the present situation that we may have an incursion of other banking interests affecting our economy. If that did take place, and it is facilitated to some extent by the fact that our laws in this regard make it easy for other banking interests to come in here, it would constitute a situation in which the control of banking and credit policies might not easily be within the effective jurisdiction of the Government. That danger was pointed out in the last Central Bank report and it is a matter which I know causes concern to many people.

One effective way, apart from legislation, of preventing such a development is to ensure that we have a sufficiently strong banking service in this country. The Irish commercial banks have always played a proper and sound part in the development of the country. They have become long-term lenders which is not a very usual service in banking, but they have provided that service in the past. One of the difficulties has been that it has become more and more apparent that we may have too many small banking interests and, as the economy develops and competition becomes acute, the danger is that the essential service required may be affected by competition from abroad. It is in that light that this proposal must be judged.

The National Bank is a very familiar bank to this country, one that has very strong ties with the national life. It is true to say that originally there was very considerable anxiety when this proposal became public. The National Bank conducts its business in Britain, the North of Ireland and in the Republic. It is a bank that, while it has a strong historical association in Ireland, is an English-based bank and it has suffered from the difficulties that, being an English registered bank, it is subject to the official regulations of Britain which, to some degree, are not appropriate to its Irish business. Under this proposal the Irish business carried on by the bank will now be controlled by an Irish company and the bank itself, its assets and business here, will become part of the Bank of Ireland group. That will enormously strengthen that group and will, I believe, enable that banking interest to provide a service competitively with banking interests from abroad. In those circumstances the proposal is, I think, in the national interest and for that reason it should have the support of the House.

I do not want to say anything about what the proposal means to the shareholders of the National Bank. I do not know enough about that. I understand that the Minister is expressing no view in that regard and, so far as the proposal here is concerned, that is, whether the merger will take place and to what extent, it is still a matter entirely for the shareholders. While the Bill does not specifically say so, the Minister has told us that he will only make an order bringing it into operation if the proposal is acceptable to and accepted by the shareholders.

In relation to the actual terms of the Bill, there are certain questions I shall raise at a later stage. I am not quite satisfied with the provisions of section 2. That section could be strengthened, I think, to cover existing arrangements with and dealings between the customers of the bank and the bank itself. These are details we can discuss on Committee Stage. In principle, and in the circumstances now obtaining here, I think this Bill is a proper one.

We do not wish to oppose this takeover. It has certain advantages from the point of view of the national economy in that it will strengthen the banking system here. It will take control from London and place it in Dublin. That is a good thing. The fact that in future taxation on profits will be payable to the Exchequer here is a very good thing. I am not aware of how much will be involved or how much the revenue will benefit, but it is a welcome step in the right direction.

I am not entirely happy about one or two aspects of this takeover. First, it will reduce still further the already very limited amount of competition in the banking field. Assuming this merger goes through, the Bank of Ireland will now control itself, the Hibernian Bank, the National City Bank and the National Bank. This will bring us considerably further along the road to monopoly. I am not sure that this will be in the interests of the man in the street who wishes to avail of the banking service. It is already difficult enough to secure overdraft facilities from the banks. The amount of competition between one bank and another is very limited and, with the banks extending their sphere of influence, we will be placed in a position in which there will be virtually no competition in the banking system. From the point of view of the man in the street I do not think that is a good thing.

I am not entirely happy amout the move in this direction. We are continually told about the advantages of free competition by those who believe in private enterprise. I imagine that those who advocate free competition would include bank directors. We are told that it is free competition that ensures value to the public because the law of supply and demand operates. We seem to be getting away from the principle of free competition in this and that is one aspect about which I am not happy. It should be put on record that this trend, if developed further, should be considered in the light of the interests of the people as distinct from the interests of specific groups.

Another aspect about which I am not happy is the compensation it is proposed to pay the shareholders. Banks are in a very privileged position in that they do not have to declare the real value of their assets and do not declare what their real profits are. This is information most vital in this present takeover. Yet, the only people who have any idea of what the value is are the directors; the shareholders of the company, who are the real owners, are not given any information. Whether it is a good or a bad thing that the banking system should, in normal times, be allowed to operate in secrecy is not something we should discuss now. But I think it is, to say the least of it, a pretty poor show. Indeed, the way in which the banks maintain public confidence is in itself a high tribute to the public.

At a time like this, however, when the shareholders' assets are being sold, it is in the interests of the owners of the business that they should be in the position of knowing exactly what the business is worth. They have not been supplied with this information. From the correspondence in the papers recently, and judging by discussions with those interested, this has left the shareholders a little unhappy. I think it is a pity the directors were not compelled to disclose this information. After all, the directors have a vested interest in being taken over. They themselves are being taken over as well as the bank and some of them will end up as directors of two banks. There was not then much incentive to the directors to fight this and get the highest possible price. That is an aspect that should be brought to the attention of the public.

The third point is that I understand the staff of the National Bank are not entirely happy either about all this. They queried this takeover at the meeting in London. They believe they have not had proper assurances as to working conditions and prospects of promotion under the new takeover. These are things that should have been spelled out in much clearer terms by the directors. The Government should, I think, insist on the directors making this much clearer to the employees than they have seen fit to do so far.

Finally, it has been decided that the venue for the proposed takeover, if it goes through, will be London. We have not been given the number of Irish shareholders involved but I should imagine that the vast majority are Irish. This meeting will be held in London and it is quite obvious that very few Irish shareholders will be present to ask awkward questions. While this may be very convenient for the directors, it is a pity that some arrangement was not made to hold the meeting in Dublin at which the Irish shareholders could attend and look after their interests.

This thing has gone through far too smoothly and very little interest has been taken as regards shareholders of the bank or employees of the bank or how this is likely to affect the man in the street when he goes to get further overdraft facilities. I am sorry the Government did not see fit to ensure that more information was made available, and that greater details were not sought from the directors of the banks as to what way things are. This measure will obviously go through and I suppose, in principle, it is acceptable because it will benefit the Irish banking system and the Irish Exchequer. However, as I have said, there are other aspects about which I am not happy.

It has been rightly said that this bank has played an historic part in the financial life of this country. I do not think there is anybody in this House who does not regret the passing of the National Bank, because, in effect, that is what is happening here. The National Bank will no longer have a separate existence, except in name, but will become a subsidiary of the Bank of Ireland. I am in full agreement with the last speaker that there should be competition. Competition is the life of trade and the very difficult financial circumstances that exist at present and the difficulty in obtaining credit will be accentuated if there are to be fewer banks.

This bank was founded over 100 years ago by Daniel O'Connell for the purpose of establishing free trade between the two countries. Free trade, I take it, is a policy of the present Government. This seems to be a retrograde step. I do not see any objection to this bank being registered in London, nor do I see any advantage being gained by what is happening now. It is true to say that the principal customer of the Bank of Ireland is the Government. Government funds are lodged in the Bank of Ireland, and the Government, of necessity, must have considerable control over the Bank of Ireland. I have always regarded the National Bank as being a separate entity in that it had a definite financial policy of its own, and that must now cease to exist. I am one of the people in this House who favour private enterprise. I always have favoured it and will continue to do so as long as I am in public life, and I do not think the unification of this bank with the Bank of Ireland is a service to the public as a whole.

I am not a financial expert nor do I hold any shares in the National Bank, although I have dealt with them myself; they have been my bankers and those of my family for generations. I believe there is dissatisfaction among the shareholders—that is the impression I have gathered from talking to people—that the property of the National Bank has not been given its full valuation. I speak subject to correction; perhaps the Minister has financial advisers beside him to inform him on these matters. I am told that the valuation placed on the real estate of the National Bank, considering the period in which it was built, is too low. It is absolutely untrue to suggest that a bank that was built 40 or 50 years ago maintains the same valuation. Of course it has greatly increased in value.

I am also aware of the fact that there is considerable anxiety among the staff of the National Bank in that they cannot be assured of continuity of employment. Where a bank becomes a subsidiary of another bank, it has obviously been done for the purpose of economy, and employees cannot be assured that there will not be a considerable cutting down on the employment in the said banks. I have been approached myself by officials of the National Bank. I was approached the other day by somebody who told me he had had an opportunity of getting a job outside this country and could I guarantee that he would still be retained in employment in the bank here. I could not do that. I am not a director of the bank. I could only tell him I thought it was possible there would be some cutting down of the staff at some later date.

In conclusion, I just want to pose the question of credit. Very near where I live, the town of Gorey, there are two banks. We have never had more than two banks. There is the National Bank and the Bank of Ireland. When people sought credit from the Bank of Ireland or the National Bank—as I say, competition is the life of trade—they were seeking credit from two rival concerns and, if they were credit-worthy, they could get the best of terms from one or the other. When they seek credit in future, it will not be from two banks but from one bank. That is the answer to this Bill.

I am glad the House has treated this Bill objectively. Even though there have been some criticisms, they have been justifiable criticisms. I should like to repeat that this is an enabling Bill. As Deputy O'Higgins rightly pointed out, this Bill will be effective only if the necessary majority of the shareholders vote in favour of the transfer of their shares from their existing holding to the new company. It is necessary, as Deputy O'Higgins pointed out, that we strengthen our own banking institutions in this country rather than enable what bank business we have to be taken over by outside interests. There are very many inquiries and overtures as to the possibility of acquiring bank interests in Ireland by outside interests, and it is for that reason, in particular, that I welcome this move by the Bank of Ireland. It is true that the greater the extent to which the bigger banks take over the smaller banks here the greater is the tendency towards monopolistic practices, but I assure the House that the Government will keep a close eye on this matter. As well as that, there are other quite substantial banks still operating in the country. There is a solid group of Corkmen who will not let the Bank of Ireland get away with too much as far as credit facilities are concerned.

The suggestion has been made that some of the shareholders feel apprehensive as to whether the value they are getting is good value. In reference to that, I can only say that while I and the Government made no special inquiries, nor were we required to do so, at the request of the boards of the three banks concerned, the Bank of Ireland, the National Bank and the Scottish Bank, an internationally known firm of chartered accountants named Cooper Bros. and Co. of London were retained specifically to express an opinion as to whether the offer made for the shares of the National Bank was adequate and they without any equivocation said that the offer made was certainly good value for the shares. Of course it is a matter for the shareholders themselves to be satisfied or otherwise, as I said, and 75 per cent of them will have to vote in favour of the transfer.

In regard to the venue at which this meeting is to take place, I assume that since the National Bank itself is an English-registered company, any meeting of this nature would be required under the English Companies Acts to take place in London. I do not think anything would necessarily arise on it in any event because I doubt if any substantial shareholder will be denied an opportunity of going to London for the purpose of the meeting or, if there is a number of small shareholders, that they would have any difficulty in selecting somebody to represent them there.

As regards aprehension, if any, felt by the staff—Deputy Esmonde said that they were apprehensive, and so did Deputy Norton—I am not aware of it. Nobody made any representations to me about it but there is specific provision in the Bill to safeguard the interests of the staff. In this connection I might say that the premises of the National Bank as they now exist will be maintained and the staffs will be maintained in them. I do not say it will necessarily be the same staff; I suppose they will be liable to transfer from one building or town to another as they are at present but, by and large, I believe the interests of the staffs will be safeguarded.

Would the Minister deal with the question of the valuation of the premises? I take it there was a revaluation?

First, I should say that a pretty informative document of 20 pages was issued to the shareholders setting out the assets not only of the National Bank but also of the Bank of Ireland, and I understand that for the purpose of the return of the valuation of the assets, the buildings were revalued.

Would the Minister kindly say what the prices of shares were before the agreement and immediately after it had been announced? Has he any information as to the number of meetings held between the directors and the staff?

I have no information on the latter question. The value of the shares was referred to in the document that was circulated. The market quotations were given at page 8, paragraph 4. I do not think it necessary for me to go through them. The shares are quoted as at 30th June, 1965 right up to January, 1966 and so I think there is ample cover to indicate the trend of the market in these shares.

Question put and agreed to.

Would it be possible to take the Committee Stage now?

No: I have some points to raise on section 2. Perhaps we could have it next Tuesday.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 22nd February, 1966.
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