asked the Minister for Education (1) whether he consulted the Catholic Clerical Managers Association on the proposed change in regard to closure of schools; (2) how many individual managers of schools were consulted in connection with closures; (3) if any further consultations with the Catholic Clerical Managers have been arranged or proposed; and (4) if the implementation of this new policy interferes with the managerial system as it has existed.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Closing of Schools.
74.
My Department has had discussions with representatives of the Catholic Clerical Managers Association in regard to the question of the closing of one-teacher schools. I had discussions with representatives of this association in relation to the closing of smaller schools both one-teacher and two-teacher. The matter subsequently formed one of the subjects which was discussed by officers of my Department with a joint deputation from the Catholic Clerical Managers and the Irish National Teachers Organisation. I am satisfied that further consultations with the Catholic Clerical Managers Association are not necessary. The consultation with individual managers is a continuing process and is being done at local level in each case according as the question of the replacement or improvement of a small school arises. Without going through all the inspectors' diaries for a period of months it would not be possible to give the number of individual managers who have been consulted to date. I am satisfied that the work involved in doing this would not be warranted.
I am also satisfied that the implementation of the new policy in no way interferes with the fundamental position which has obtained in regard to the management of schools In fact the new policy goes much further than the existing arrangements in endeavouring to establish the parish as the unit in connection with primary education.
75.
asked the Minister for Education (a) in how many cases he has instructed his inspectors to investigate the statistics about two-teacher and one-teacher schools with a view to determining the feasibility of closing such schools; (b) the number of one-teacher schools in which the teacher is not a fully qualified teacher; (c) the number of two-teacher schools in which the second teacher is not a fully trained teacher and (d) the number of (i) one-teacher and (ii) two-teacher schools existing in towns as distinct from rural areas.
(a) Such instructions have been issued to inspectors in about 150 cases; (b) there are 143 one-teacher schools in which the teacher is untrained; (c) there are 1,025 two-teacher schools in which the second teacher is untrained; (d) there are 47 and 86, respectively, one-teacher and two-teacher schools situated in urban areas.
76.
asked the Minister for Education (1) what is the estimated cost which will fall to be met as a result of his decision to close one and two-teacher schools; (2) what cost will accrue from provision of alternative educational facilities for children who will have to be transported to outside schools and (3) in how many cases implementation of his policy of closure will result in abandoning comparatively recently erected or renovated schools.
As this is not a matter of cost but of education, no detailed costings have been prepared. It must be obvious, however, that larger school units are more economic to build than a whole series of smaller units and that teachers can be deployed with far greater educational advantage in larger than in smaller schools. There is not and there never has been any question of abandoning two-teacher schools which were recently erected or renovated. As I stated clearly to the House already, the closing of small schools must be a gradual process.
77.
asked the Minister for Education if he had any intention of referring his proposed action in closing one and two-teacher schools to any consultative or advisory body such as he mentioned in his Estimate speech of 1965-66 which might be expected to give an informed opinion on such procedure and its consequences.
The educational benefits involved were so great and the necessity for acting in the matter so pressing as to demand that immediate steps be taken.
78.
asked the Minister for Education if he will list, giving the type, location, number of teachers and average annual enrolment, the one and two-teacher schools (a) on which building proposals have been postponed, and (b) which are listed for inclusion in the scheme of closures contemplated in his more recent statements.
As the examination of the majority of such cases is at a preliminary stage and as some time must elapse before final decisions are taken it would be premature to endeavour to compile such a list.
In connection with the several replies the Minister has just given, is it correct to say the general policy is that parochial schools will in every case be substituted for any schools that are closed? There is no question of amalgamating parishes for the purpose of providing one school to take the place of one or two schools being closed?
No, there is no question whatever of that. As I explained to the House in some detail, we are endeavouring, as far as is humanly possible, to confine any amalgamation of schools within a parish. I have explained there were exceptional cases where this could not be done, but they are exceptional and a relatively small number. We are making particular efforts to ensure as far as we can that children who are being transported to another school will be kept within their own parish.
The Minister has spoken of the necessary gradual nature of this change. Can we rest assured that where there is in existence a thoroughly unfit two-teacher school, structurally speaking, this general programme of reform will not be used for the purpose of failing to replace that school when the necessity for replacement is urgent for the welfare of the children?
Yes; I think I have already assured the Deputy on a number of occasions that this is so. As I explained earlier today in the House, it is true that a number of schools which were due for replacement have been held up for some months for the investigation to take place. But I have also pointed out that, as a result of this, in many cases the children concerned are being or will be housed in good conditions in schools very much faster than they would have been if we proceeded to replace the schools. Apart from the delay which must necessarily follow in the examination of the position of any particular school, there will be no delay in school building because of this policy.
Did the Minister not say, in answer to an intervention during his closing speech, that, where unsatisfactory schools were due for renewal and if amalgamation with a bigger school had to be considered, there would be considerable delay? Did the Minister not say that this morning?
No.
The Minister should look at the Official Report. That is what he said.
What Deputy Tully may be thinking of is this. I said that, where the proposal was to build a central school, this would necessarily take some years; and in those circumstances we would either provide a prefabricated classroom or do temporary repairs. What I said in regard to the examination of a matter of this kind was that it would take only three or four months. Does the Deputy recall I said that?
Can the Minister recall if he mentioned anything about repairs or prefabricated classrooms in his reply to my intervention this morning?
I did.
This arises from the Minister's speech rather than from the question on the Order Paper.
I suggest we both might await the Official Report.
79.
asked the Minister for Education whether he considers provision of primary education in rural areas as an economic problem rather than a social problem; and if he considers economic factors outweigh social in determining closures.
As I have made it clear on numerous occasions, the fundamental consideration in relation to the provision of primary education must be the welfare of our children in the matter of providing them with the best education possible. Economic and social problems are merely incidental to this. They are given due weight when it comes to considering each case on its merits. In fact educational and social considerations are so intertwined as not to leave any room for real conflict.
Will the Minister not agree that the social aspects of this problem urgently demand that the unity of the parish society should not be broken up by the transfer of children from one parish to another parish in the course of school amalgamations?
I think I have already dealt with that. I understand Deputy Dillon's difficulty in not being able to be present today when I discussed this in detail. I sympathise with him and the position of his Party but nevertheless I would refer him to my reply today. I think he will find I have dealt with that matter fully.
We do not need the Minister's sympathy. His own Party and the Deputy sitting behind him are in the same position over the Free Trade Area.
Question No. 80 postponed.