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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Mar 1966

Vol. 221 No. 14

Committee on Finance. - Vote 39—Agriculture (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a supplementary sum not exceeding £2,045,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1966, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain Subsidies and sundry Grants-in-Aid.
—(Minister for Agriculture.)

I was dealing with a number of matters earlier and I would like now, since the opportunity was given by Deputy Dillon, to refer to beet. I wonder at the impertinence of the Deputy to deal with beet in this House. I want to quote from the Official Report of the 18th June, 1947 when Deputy Dillon said:

There remains beet—the blessings of beet! Some day, and in the not too distant time, our people will have to ask themselves whether it is in the best interest of the community as a whole to continue the production of sugar from beet in this country at an annual cost of £3,000,000 sterling. That is what it costs in normal times to keep the beet industry going in this country. If, instead of growing beet and converting it into sugar, we import refined sugar into this country there will be £3,000,000 sterling more for the National exchequer and that £3,000,000 can be used to increase children's allowances in every home in Ireland from the 2/6 per child to 5/- per child, and the land vacated by that crop can be used for the production of profitable agricultural produce which will help to finance essential imports and to enrich the farmers who live upon the land.

I would point out to Deputy Corry that there is nothing relating to beet in the Supplementary Estimate. This does not arise on the Supplementary Estimate.

I am replying to a quarter hour's discussion by Deputy Dillon here on the reduction in the acreage of beet. I think I called the attention of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle to it at the time.

Will the Deputy please listen? Deputy Dillon was informed that references to beet were not in order and he desisted.

The Deputy is challenging the ruling of the Chair.

I will refer to the Official Report when it comes out. I hope this bears out your statement.

The question of beet does not arise.

All right. The next thing I want to deal with is Deputy Dillon's statement on milk and on its conversion into butter and also the price of butter. Deputy Dillon had very fixed views on this, too. At column 2048 of the Official Report of the 18th June, 1947, he said:

We are subsidising butter production to the tune of £2,000,000 per annum. How long will that go on? Do we expect butter to get dearer in the markets of the world? Do we expect a time in the early future when the price of milk will become so adjusted that it will be possible to suspend this subsidy or do we intend to continue producing milk for conversion into butter in creameries at an annual cost to the taxpayer of £2,000,000 per annum? I want it to go on record most emphatically that I think such a policy is sheer insanity and is purely pursued for the purpose of maintaining the prestige of incompetents in the offices of the Minister for Agriculture since Fianna Fáil came into power.

That was Deputy Dillon's statement on the 18th June, 1947. Twelve months afterwards this House, in its wisdom or lunacy, made Deputy Dillon Minister for Agriculture.

You were disappointed.

So was the country.

When they carried out that policy 12 months afterwards, the price of milk in the creameries was 1/3 per gallon.

How much is it today?

Deputy Dillon issued an immediate offer to all the creamery managers of 1/- per gallon for their milk guaranteed for five years. That was his policy for the abolition of butter production. It was turned down of course by the milk producers. When we are approaching those problems, we must remember the statements by some geniuses here and Deputy Dillon's allusion to clean milk. We had a statement from a Deputy who was shadow Minister for Agriculture—I am glad he is removed from that position now, I understand—Deputy Donegan, who said that 75 per cent of the milk sent to the creameries at that period was dirty and unfit for processing.

Can the Deputy give the reference?

You find it.

You said it. You know it to be completely untrue.

I am making the statement.

The Deputy is in the habit of making untrue statements.

While Deputy Dillon was speaking, he prided himself on this and was challenged afterwards on that by Deputy O'Donnell who had to stand up and declare that the farmers and farmers' daughters in County Limerick were not producing dirty milk and were not dirty. We finally traced it down that the only place dirty milk was being produced was in the Deputy's constituency of Louth.

Who stated that?

Listen, young fellow, I had to deal with you before. If you conduct yourself, I shall leave you alone. That is the most I can guarantee.

You did not teach me a lot.

You spent the last half hour seeking to know what you were to do with your donkey in Donegal. Do not be irritating me.

Who made that statement?

That was the statement made. I can go on record here that in one of the largest cheese factories in my area, Rathduff, the total amount of milk rejected for being dirty was two per cent. Of course there is clean milk and there is quality milk, which is above clean milk, but there is no dirty milk going into processed foods in this country today. We had the statement from Mr. Power of Ballyclough. Yet we had this kind of sweeping statement that 75 per cent of the milk produced by our farmers was dirty and unfit for processing, a statement made by the dirty milkman over there.

That is completely untrue. The Deputy should give the reference to it.

The Deputy would not even be able to read it.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Corry must be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

But he should be asked to give the reference.

The Deputy's education was completely neglected.

If I could understand the language the Deputy speaks, it would be an achievement.

The Deputy must not have attended the schools Deputy Coughlan mentioned. He might have got some enlightenment there. Let him not come in here to make a general nuisance of himself.

I am only asking the Deputy to keep to the rules of the House, trying to keep him right.

We all know that the large increase in milk production at present is due to the fact that we changed our cows and got rid of the short-horns and replaced them with Friesians. Deputy Dillon, when Minister for Agriculture, alluded to them as the pekingese breed and wanted to know what lunatic was importing them.

Would the Deputy give the reference?

I am making the statement; the Deputy can find out if it is true or not.

We dispute it.

You dispute it? Who do you think you are?

I said "We dispute it".

There is only one of you there. I am sure Deputy O'Donnell is not disputing anything of the kind. Those were statements made publicly in this House by Deputy Dillon. Do you dispute the one about the butter or about the meat? What do you dispute?

I shall give the Deputy a few references he made to the Economic War that should be very interesting to him.

You can give them and I will stand over everything done during the Economic War. My one regret is that a lot of the bucks here should have had their backs to the wall.

(Interruptions.)

What did the Deputy say about the production of beef?

In any case we fed our own people with it.

The written word is a very strong thing.

We must remember when speaking about milk production that when we hear all this noise about a 5-day, 40-hour week, the cows have not yet been trained to the 5-day week. They still milk seven days a week and somebody must be there to milk them. When we consider increases in wages and salaries, I think the first man entitled to an increase is the man who has to work seven days of the week.

Hear, hear. And he got nothing in the Budget, not a penny.

Will somebody give that child a bottle? I maintain that the farmer is entitled to an increase in the present price of milk before there are any increases for the 5-day, 40-hour week man.

What about the £900 increase for civil servants?

Your party forced the general election, joined by the gentlemen over there, on that very issue, demanding an increase for those civil servants. Deputy Dillon made a case for them today but since you remind me of it, I will say this much. There are men in this country whose services cannot be valued in terms of money. Still, all that they can get in the economy is their share, no more and no less. We all do certain things at certain times that are of very great benefit to the community at large. For example, I came into this House just before the Dáil dissolved and moved an objection to a Bill. Only last week, we were discussing the results of my action. My action meant a relief to the ratepayers of my county of £250,000 this year.

That is true.

I did not ask anyone to double my salary or to give me an increase. I take what I get. These are facts. To be quite honest about it, I do not believe that this country can at present afford the total amount in salaries provided for the Civil Service. We just cannot afford it.

Remember the byelections now.

There is one other matter I want to mention and it is a matter of complaint. I should like the Minister to give heed to the position. It is stated here that everyone should get an increase of £1 a week. The section of the community that should be satisfied in the first instance are the agricultural community, be they farmers, farmers' sons or farm labourers. They are entitled to the first slice of the cake. No one can expect a man to work seven days of the week for the munificent wage of £7 and rear a family on it. It cannot be done.

It is scandalous.

The agricultural community have the first claim and are entitled to get their increase.

Hear, hear.

I found the same difficulty this year when I was dealing with beet. I think I did a wise thing. When I found that there was no more cash forthcoming, I said: "Very well; we are accepting that price for this year on condition that if any increase is given to any workers, either in transport companies or the Sugar Company, the same percentage increase will be given to the beet grower". We hold that guarantee in writing and the increase can go as high as they like now. It is the only protection we could find for the agricultural community, seeing that Governments in office are not prepared to do what I consider the right thing, namely, to charge the gentlemen with £2,000, £2,500 and £3,500 a year an extra 2d on their sugar and pay the farmer for producing the beet.

Or give them something extra in the Budget.

This was the only cure. The Estimate practically precludes one from dealing with anything else in that line. There is only one comment I should like to make. I do not think that the breed of Friesian cattle in Britain is better than it is here or that better bulls are being produced in Britain than we are producing here, and I should like to comment very unfavourably on the Department of Agriculture going over to Britain within the past month and paying £20,000 there for bulls when they could have bought just as well in the shows and markets in this country.

This Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Agriculture comes at the end of a period of 12 months which can be described as one of the most difficult and most disappointing years for Irish agriculture of the past 20 years. In the progress Report for 1965 on the Second Programme for Economic Expansion, we see a failure to meet the various targets. We have a situation where 14,000 people have left the land and in sector after sector of our agricultural industry, targets have not been reached. Unfortunately, this Supplementary Estimate does not allow us to go into the detail which the present situation demands. We must confine ourselves to the details of the Estimate.

The Supplementary Estimate is for £2,045,000. I think it necessary to spell out the subheads in case it might be thought, as a result of the usual ballyhoo and misinterpretation that there always is on any Vote for Agriculture, that this is £2,045,000 going into the pockets of the farmers. The details of the Supplementary Estimate are: Salaries, Wages and Allowances, £415,000; Additional Grants to University Colleges, £58,700; Contribution to Irish Countrywomen's Association, £1,000; Contribution to Macra na Feirme,£1,000; An Foras Talúntais, £136,000; Prevention of Disease, etc., in Livestock, £43,200; Bovine Tuberculosis Eradication Scheme, £796,000; Grants towards the Cost of Co-operative Projects, £6,000; Payments to Pigs and Bacon Commission, £1,300,000; Diseases of Animals Acts, £24,700; Marketing, etc., of Dairy Produce, £956,000. Deputy Donegan pointed out at the outset of the debate that this Supplementary Estimate for £2,045,000 will not make the farmers the richer by even one shilling.

There are two main heads of the Supplementary Estimate which are of particular interest to me, coming from a constituency where dairying and pig production are the two main systems of farming carried on. There is a subhead here of £956,000 for the marketing of dairy produce. The Minister dealt at length with this question of dairy produce. He mentioned what it is costing the Exchequer, the difficulties which have to be surmounted, and so forth, but I think the Minister deliberately refrained from presenting the true picture at the present moment regarding the markets for dairy produce. I am sure the Minister is just as well aware as I am of the predictions for 1966 in respect of milk production. He must be aware that unless there is an increase of 7.5 per cent in milk production during 1966, the markets for milk products which Bord Bainne have entered into cannot be met. There is no earthly hope of getting this 7.5 per cent increase in milk production this year and, for that reason, if we must, under the terms of the Trade Agreement, supply 23,000 tons of butter to the British market, this will mean that we will be unable to supply the markets we have already got for cheese, milk powder and other dairy products. This, in my opinion, is the most serious situation that has hit this country and the agricultural community for a long time.

We have gone to tremendous trouble and have made colossal efforts in recent years to obtain and to develop markets, not alone in Britain but in various parts of the world, for our dairy products. On numerous occasions I have paid tribute to An Bord Bainne and I do so again now. We are faced with the situation, which obviously was completely unforeseen, that in 1966 we will be unable to meet our entire market commitment. This of course will have the disastrous result of giving us a bad reputation on world export markets —of fly-by-nights, coming with plently of products one year and the next year not being able to supply our commitments. I do not like making sweeping statements, and I try to avoid making them as far as possible, but I have already made a statement over which I stand, that is, that there is no earthly hope in 1966 of obtaining a 7.5 per cent increase in milk production.

There are good reasons for saying this. It is a well known fact that the dairy farmers have been trying to produce milk against almost overwhelming odds. Since 1953, there has been an increase of only 3d per gallon in the price of milk, or 16 per cent, and since 1953, costs of production have soared. It is becoming virtually impossible to produce milk at the price which our dairy farmers are getting, 2¾d per pint. Our farmers are working for seven days a week producing whole milk at this price. As Deputy Corry said, there is every argument in favour of giving priority to this most important section of our community in regard to increases. Unfortunately they are receiving no increase in the Budget. I see no hope of increasing milk production and we will be doing quite well if we again reach the 1965 figure for milk production. It is too much to expect, with production costs increasing all the time, that we will get an increase in milk production.

In regard to the marketing of dairy produce, we all know that it is essential to produce top quality dairy products. As an incentive to the farmers to produce top quality milk, an increase or a bonus incentive of 1d per gallon was given last year. Today the Minister stated that the numbers qualifying under the creamery milk quality grading scheme is 42.5 per cent. I cannot accept that figure; I do not believe it is correct. From the evidence I have got, I believe the figure is something over 30 per cent. However, it has produced certain results, but everybody connected with the dairy industry admits that it is essential to produce top quality milk as otherwise we cannot get top quality dairy products. Now it has been recognised, since the experiment last year and the working of the 1d bonus, that this 1d per gallon is not enough. It is completely inadequate and is not a incentive. It has been a grave disappointment not only that there has been no increase in the basic price of milk but also that the Minister has not found it possible to increase the quality bonus.

Does the Minister, or the parliamentary Secretary, realise the tremendous difficulties which faced dairy farmers not only last year but in recent years, not only in regard to the matter of rising costs and static prices, and the lack of adequate incentives, but also in regard to the difficulties they have had to meet in the matter of the eradication of bovine tuberculosis and the increasing instances in recent years of brucellosis and various other diseases? It would be difficult for me to exaggerate the tremendous difficulties they have been facing. I live among them and I know their problems. Is it any wonder, therefore, that the columns of the provincial newspapers in recent months have been filled with advertisements for auctions of dairy herds which are being sold by people getting out of milk production?

The Minister, in a benevolent manner, on page five of his introductory speech, referred to the Exchequer assistance to the dairy industry and to the marketing of dairy products and said:

The total sum for milk price support this year amounts to £10,696,000 or about 6.5d. per gallon.

He goes on to say:

There could scarcely be any better evidence than this of the Governments recognition of the importance of the dairying industry in the whole economy and of the Government's willingness to assist the industry so far as the resources available permit.

I respectfully suggest that this is complete bunk. That is the type of approach that has made 1965 one of the most disastrous years in agriculture and the type of approach that has produced the results outlined in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. The only incentive that will give proof of the Government's interest in the dairying industry is to give the farmer a fair price for his produce, and that has not been done.

Much play has been made with the question of assistance to the dairy industry. I have heard speakers saying that dairy farmers are well off and that any increase in the price of milk would lead to an increase in the price of butter, and so forth. I am told that last week on the Budget a Labour party speaker said that the dairy farmers should be compelled to pay income tax and that the price of milk is too high. It is vitally important that we should see this whole question in its proper perspective. This £10 million for the dairying industry as well as this additional Vote for marketing of dairy produce is justified for the simple reason that the dairying industry is the most important factor not alone of our agricultural economy but of our entire economy. It is an industry which provides a living for 110,000 dairy farmers and their families and provides employment in co-operative creameries and processing industries for several thousand more. It is an industry which has contributed £20 million in the export of dairy products in 1965. It is like stating the obvious to mention that the dairying industry is also the foundation of our cattle exports.

The Minister's statement proves nothing. There is no evidence in this Supplementary Estimate or in anything produced by the Minister since he took office to indicate his genuine interest in the dairying industry. The position is now that at a meeting of dairy farmers in Limerick last week, it was decided that drastic action would have to be taken. This is a very responsible section of the community not easily provoked into drastic action. They have now decided to take the extreme step of leaving their farms, coming here to Dublin and demonstrating outside Leinster House. Surely that is proof they have reached the limit of their endurance? Is it not a warning to the Minister and the Government that the official attitude to the dairying industry will have to be changed sooner or later?

There is no use waxing eloquent about the marketing of dairy produce, if, having entered into commitments, we cannot keep them. I already said before the Minister came in, and I repeat now for his benefit, that the national milk pool projection for 1966 indicates we will have to get a production increase of 7.5 per cent over 1965. In January and February of this year, milk production was down—four per cent in January and about three per cent in February. Anybody who knows the problems the dairy farmers have to contend with knows it will be a miracle if we get the same milk output in 1966 as we had in 1965, let alone an increase of 7.5 per cent. I have on previous occasions paid tribute to the officals of Bord Bainne for succeeding in putting our dairy products into markets in various parts of the world against extreme competition. But if we fail to meet our commitments, will it not make them look foolish?

There is only one answer, and it is a very simple one. Our dairy farmers must get an economic basic price for their milk. To compensate the dairy farmers for the increased costs and other difficulties they had to contend with, a minimum increase in the basic price of 4d per gallon for milk is now essential. If the dairy farmer gets that, the Minister need not bother about the £15 headage grant for heifers or any other such scheme, because the dairy farmers will produce the milk to supply our commitments to the export market and will also supply our store cattle. That is the best incentive they can be given.

The Minister referred in detail to the creamery milk quality grading scheme, which was referred to by other speakers as well. I do not accept the figure of about 42 per cent. I believe it to be about 33 per cent, but that is beside the point. The Minister must remember that in 1965 there were a number of favourable factors which had an important influence on the methylene blue test. One was the fact that the weather was exceptionally cold—there was no heat wave. If we had had normal summer weather when the cooling of milk would have been vitally important, this figure would not have been reached at all. Only about 20 per cent of the farmers are equipped to produce quality milk.

I have heard a lot of blatherskite about dirty milk and so forth. This type of talk is a pure waste of time. Every dairy farmer has to reach certain minimum standards, and he had to reach those standards before this quality milk scheme ever came into operation. You cannot send dirty milk to a creamery. I have been taking milk to a creamery since seven years of age. Quality milk and clean milk are not one and the same thing. That is something very often not realised.

The Deputy had better tell Deputy Dillon that, because he made that mistake this evening.

They are two entirely different things. It is also not appreciated that milk going to be processed into powdered milk is subjected to no fewer than seven different scientific analysis tests. The main determining factor in the methylene blue test is cooling. I know from discussing it with my neighbours at the local creamery that the farmers who consistently qualify for this bonus are the farmers who have cooling systems installed. There will be no improvement in this field unless the incentive bouns is increased.

Under the heading "Marketing of dairy products" the Minister referred to the home consumption of dairy produce. He said "Our home consumption of dairy products has always been high but, with the assistance of the National Dairy Publicity Council, we are managing to raise it still more." That statement is not quite correct. Our per capita consumption of butter is one of the highest in Europe, but unfortunately our per capita consumption of cheese is one of the lowest. On numerous occasions in the past four years, speaking on this problem of the marketing of our dairy produce, I have referred to the possibility of increasing the consumption not of butter, which is already high, but of cheese. The Minister says here that the National Dairy Publicity Council are managing to raise it still more. That may be so, but I do not think the results achieved are very striking. It is a well-known fact that cheese has a very high nutritional value but one of the problems is that people do not appreciate that. There is room for an imaginative approach to the question of making people more aware of the nutritional value of cheese and dairy products. There is hope for extending the home market.

There has been a great deal of talk about the Free Trade Area Agreement, the tremendous achievements for Irish agriculture. Under the heading of the marketing of dairy produce our butter quota to the British market has been increased to 23,000 tons. How many people realise that this 23,000 tons, which seems to be a tremendous figure, represents only 3.6 per cent of the British market for butter? Our cheese exports to Britain in 1965 represented only 3.63 per cent of the total British market for cheese. If this Free Trade Area Agreement between Ireland and Britain means anything at all, there must surely be scope for increasing this percentage of the British market which we hold, 3.6 for butter and 3.63 for cheese.

The Agreement provides for growth in accordance with our Second Programme targets.

In other words, there is provision to increase the 23,000 tons, provided we can get the production?

That is the main argument I made earlier on. I expect that would be a rational interpretation of the Free Trade Agreement, that we could get more than 3.6 per cent of the British market.

On the other hand, the Deputy is telling us we will not even be able to supply those.

I shall not enter into an argument with the Minister. He will have an opportunity of speaking and I shall give him plenty of ammunition. Under the heading "Marketing of dairy produce" I have been merely stating the obvious. Our marketing board, Bord Bainne, has succeeded in establishing our dairy products, particularly in Great Britain but in other countries as well. We have entered into firm marketing commitments. Due mainly to Government policy and especially to the failure of the Minister for Agriculture to realise the situation, we are now faced with the position that we shall not be able to meet our export commitments. There is one very simple solution, a minimum increase of 4d per gallon in the basic price of milk. This will ensure an adequate supply of milk. Not alone will Bord Bainne be able to meet their marketing commitments but to meet any increase in quota which might come at a later stage. Most important of all, it will save the unfortunate dairy farmers the inconvenience and, maybe hardship of coming to Dublin to demonstrate in demand of their rights.

Deputy Coughlan dealt at length this morning with the bacon industry. Much of what I have said and the principles I tried to apply to the problems of the dairying industry can also be applied to the problems of the bacon industry. Factories cannot be kept in full production unless there is an adequate supply of raw materials. The only way to get an adequate supply, as in the case of milk, is to give the farmers a fair price and the incentives necessary to efficient production of pigs. Despite what it says in paragraph 79 of this booklet of the Second programme for Economic Expansion, that pig numbers reached a record high level in 1965, it has come as a shock to realise that, on the latest count, there is a serious reduction, particularly in sow numbers. On the livestock enumeration in January, 1966, issued by the Central Statistics Office, the percentage change from January, 1965, to January, 1966, is as follows: Sows in-pig, down 12.4 per cent; other sows for breeding, a reduction of 23.6 per cent; gilts in-pig, down 48.1 per cent. In the number of pigs six months old and upwards there is an increase of 39.5 per cent; three months old and under, an increase of 5.6 per cent.

However, looking at it on a long-term basis and from the point of view of continuity of supply, we find, for pigs under three months, a reduction of 14 per cent. Attention has been called to this alarming situation in recent years, and it certainly gives cause for concern. Deputy Coughlan comes from the same constituency as I do. We are concerned about the livelihood of the workers in the three bacon factories in Limerick. He outlined various proposals and schemes for increasing pig numbers. He laid considerable emphasis on an advisory service. An advisory service is necessary but it is only part of the story. The only way to get continuity of supply for our bacon factories is to encourage our farmers to produce pigs and to make it worth their while to do so.

We have reached a situation in which there is a reduction in pig numbers because it has not been worth the farmer's while to produce pigs. That is the simple fact. I said earlier that the reason we are faced with a reduction in milk is that it is becoming uneconomic for the farmer to produce milk. The Minister has his work cut out for him, and, if he produces in 1966 the same results that he produced in 1965, then God help Irish agriculture and the Irish farmer.

There are a number of other headings in this Supplementary Estimate but they deal with matters of a less contentious nature. They are, nevertheless, important. A number of problems have been brought to my notice in relation to the bovine tuberculosis eradication scheme. A number of herds have been locked up. When the test was carried out one or more reactors were found and the herd was locked up in the sense that the farmer could not dispose of any animal until the stipulated period—I think two months —had passed. The only way out would be to get a special licence to take the animals to the factory for slaughter. A situation has arisen in my constituency. It is widespread all over County Limerick. Herds have been locked up and farmers find themselves now with young animals—yearlings and a little older—of which they cannot dispose. Usually, these animals are sold in the winter months when there is no money coming in from milk. It would be stupid for the farmer to take yearlings to the factory for slaughter and many farmers are gravely inconvenienced and financially embarrassed. It is impossible, of course, to get as much as a bob from the Agricultural Credit Corporation. The farmer needs money. I know farmers who have been in a shocking state because the rate collector is pressing them for the final moiety. The only good feature is that, because the herds are locked up, the rate collector cannot drive the cattle off. At least the farmer is saved that worry. I would ask the Minister to examine the situation to see if some scheme could be introduced, through the Agricultural Credit Corporation or elsewhere, whereby farmers whose herds have been locked up and who urgently need money might get an advance against the cattle pending their sale when the herds are freed.

Brucellosis is not mentioned but it is becoming a very serious problem and it will have to be tackled in a much more determined manner. The Minister dealt at length with other diseases —foot and mouth, warble fly and so on. I hope there will be no relaxation of the efforts to prevent an outbreak of foot and mouth. I understand there has been an increase in the incidence of the disease in recent years on the Continent. One of the big advantages we enjoy is that we are relatively free from this dreadful scourage.

I welcome the contributions to the voluntary organisations. I always welcome any aid to these organisations. The young farmers movement has done a great deal of good. Its potential has never been really fully exploited. There is vast scope for utilising this organisation to its fullest for the benefit of the young farmers themselves, the future farmers of the country, and for the benefit of the nation as a whole.

Time and again Macra na Feirme has been criticised because it seemed to be devoting too much of its programme to social functions. Others criticised the organisation on the grounds that there were far too many competitions and these were not of an educational nature. Any organisation or any type of function that brings young farmers together is a good thing. It is, of course, vitally important that Macra na Feirme, with which I was associated for many long years, should not lose sight of its main objective, which is to fulfil the educational as well as the social needs of young farmers. From that point of view Telefís Feirme has been a tremendous asset. I feel a certain pride in the fact that for years I expressed the view that television could be of tremendous value to the young farmers movement. Time nowadays does not permit me to take as active a part in Macra na Feirme as I used to, but I am glad to learn from my young neighbours that they are making full use of the programmes provided by Telefís Éireann. Telefís Feirme is one of the biggest steps forward in agricultural education and the programme is fully availed of by Macra na Feirme. For that reason I fully support this grant of £1,000 to that organisation.

Deputy Coughlan referred to the ICA. I have not had the same contact with the ICA as I had with Macra na Feirme. Although the ICA may be more limited in its scope than Macra na Feirme, it has, nevertheless, justified its existence and it is deserving of support.

I was surprised to find that another great rural organisation, Muintir na Tíre, had been omitted, but then I realised that that body comes within the ambit of the Department of Education. Voluntary rural organisations, while they have made a very big contribution to rural development, particularly agricultural, could be utilised to still greater advantage if there were greater liaison between them and the Department of Agriculture. The relationship between Macra na Feirme and local advisory services has always been happy but at this stage of the development of Macra, there is need to review the progress made to see if this organisation could be encouraged to go into other fields as yet unconquered.

One Macra experiment in my constituency is worthy of mention. The Murroe branch have set up a junior co-operative society. In my county, where there is such a wide number of co-operatives, it is most important that our young farmers should be educated in the principles and the practice of co-operation and this branch at Murroe is preparing these young farmers for future participation as members of the committees of their local co-operatives. That is just one of the fields in which Macra na Feirme might be encouraged to develop and extend their activities.

The Supplementary Estimate makes provision for a grant of £136,000 to An Foras Talúntais. When reference has been made here in the past to An Foras Talúntais, I have been a little critical. My criticism is that I fear the results of the research being carried out by the Agricultural Institute is not being brought home to the farmers or put to practical use down on the farm. It is not my intention to convey that no information comes through. I feel, however, there is need for a much closer liaison between An Foras Talúntais and the local advisory services in the matter of research. I have referred to this many times. I suggest also that the bulletins being issued by the Agricultural Institute could be presented in a much plainer and more simple way.

There is reference in the Minister's statement to a grant of £58,700 for the Faculty of General Agriculture in University College, Dublin. The Minister said the number of students has increased substantially, that greater provision has been made for specialisation of studies in response to growing demands for the services of graduates possessing specialised knowledge in agricultural science. I am not so familiar with UCD these days but I understand the course for the degree in agriculture has been changed in recent times and that it gives opportunities now for specialisation. If that is so, it is a welcome development because, in addition to what one could call the general practitioner in agriculture, there is need now in rural Ireland for the specialist as well.

I should like to refer to this in the context of the development of the co-operative movement. This progress in UCD towards the training of specialists is a welcome development because I believe in each county nowadays, in addition to the ordinary agricultural instructors, there should be a number of specialist instructors depending on the type of farming practised in the area concerned. In moving for an increased grant for the Faculty of Agriculture in UCD, therefore, I hope the Minister and his Department will endeavour to see to it that as many as possible of the products of that faculty are employed so that many of our agricultural graduates will not in the future as in the past be compelled to go to Nigeria, Ghana and various other countries. There is need here for agricultural advisers. UCD can produce them and it is a tragedy that so many of them have to emigrate in search of employment.

There is a grant of £6,000 towards the development of co-operative projects. This is a field in which the Department of Agriculture will have to take far greater interest in the future if we are not to drive every small farmer in the country off his land. The Department must formulate a policy and a programme which can be put into practice. I am referring to producer co-operatives, the only hope for the survival of the small farmers. Numerous experiments in co-operation have been initiated with success. I have occasionally referred to one such co-operative in my county. In the course of the past four years, they have been able to increase production by ten per cent per annum compared with the miserable one per cent for the country in 1965.

I should like to mention one important point about this movement. It is the principles which have been formulated for the reorganisation of the co-operative movement. I warn the Minister, and I repeat what I said here during Questions, that the dairy farmers will have to be told in clear, simple language what this reorganisation entails, what it will cost and what benefits will accrue from it—that they will not be presented with a document containing vague, indefinite, inconclusive information such as the document recently circulated by the IAOS. I hope that before we come to discuss the main Estimate for Agriculture the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary will have seen the light, will have realised that never has there been such despondency among the agricultural community. I speak for the dairy farmers of County Limerick. Never have feelings run so high, never were they more serious about taking drastic action. I appeal to the Minister to give us what we are justly entitled to, an economic basic price for milk. If he does, not only will they produce the target figure for 1966 but they will exceed it.

I personally feel that this Supplementary Estimate of over £2 million will not perform any miracles, particularly with a Fianna Fáil Minister in charge of affairs. First of all, under the item of Salaries referred to by Deputy Dillon, I should like to say that I have had in my time a lot of experience of Department of Agriculture officials because I engaged in the export trade, as did my late father, and it brought us into close contact with some of the activities of the Department of Agriculture. I should like to pay this tribute, in passing, that I always found in that Department, on the official side particularly, reasonableness and fair play. While most Deputies particularly on this side, deplore the status increases which have been granted to higher ranking civil servants, if there was any Department of State I should like it to be generous with in the Civil Service it is that particular Department because of my experience of them. I do not now have any dealings with them, through no fault of my own, because the lines we engaged in in the past, egg and turkey exports, are now so small. As far as I know, egg exports are non-existent and the number of turkeys exported is very small also. Again, I should say that I have always found reasonableness and fair play on the part of staffs in that Department and I should like now, as a freelance, to pay them that tribute.

The heifer scheme has been discussed here by other Deputies and at some length. I do not wish to delay the House unduly on that particular subject beyond saying that we in the west of Ireland have had to pay our share for that scheme. In fact, we had more than our share to pay, having regard to what we were able to get out of it. The reason is, of course, that the majority of the small farmers in the west of Ireland were not in a position, for a variety of reasons, to avail of the heifer grants. In many instances they were able to increase their basic herds only by getting one or two additional heifers in calf. When you consider the value of money today, you can well imagine how little effect that £15 or £30 had in helping the small farmer in the west of Ireland. It was of little or no benefit to him. I am expressing the viewpoint— and I notice the Minister is paying particular attention—expressed to me up and down the various counties along the western seaboard. They pointed out to me that while the big farmers in the southern or eastern counties, or in Meath and Westmeath, could add 50 or 100 animals to their herds, that was physically impossible for the people I represent, with the exception perhaps of ten, 15 or 20 of the bigger farmers because big farmers in my part of the country are few and far between.

But there were more grants paid in the Deputy's county— far more.

It is a big county.

As Deputy Donegan has pointed out, it is a big county. It is a very big county from the tip of Shrule to Killala Bay, but, generally speaking, when you consider that there are so many small farmers in a county like that each with one, two or three heifers, you can understand that it will make up quite a number. But when that money is spread over persons with only three heifers in calf, £40 is not sufficient money for those people today.

It is better than nothing.

I was told by a farmer at Knockmore church outside Ballina— and this relates to the theory of the payment for these heifers—that he had actually not been paid for a heifer which was now in calf. So it must be about two or two and a half years since that money was due and he still has not collected it for the first heifer. Now the second heifer is in calf. No doubt that was due in some measure to the farmer not having reminded the Department of Agriculture about the oversight but I think these things should not happen. I want to emphasise that while we in the west of Ireland had to pay our share for that scheme, we did not benefit from it in the same degree as did those in other parts of the country.

Furthermore, the quality of many of the heifers in calf was very poor indeed. There were quite a number of people who engaged in that scheme who had very little regard for what type of calf was produced. You had them producing scrub, or unlicensed bulls. You had inferior quality heifers in calf. They collected the £15 and they did not care a hang what type of calf was produced, so long as they had a calf and could claim the £15. It is a pity that many people deliberately set out to sabotage the scheme and it is also a pity that such people get away with it.

On that question, I understand there is also a lot of disease among cattle herds generally. I believe that this is particularly prevalent in Westmeath and Meath. There is contagious abortion there and some of our people from Mayo are migrated, through the Land Commission, from the west of Ireland into that part of the country and the number of cattle they now have is quite limited. Many of them have only seven, eight, ten or 12 cattle and that might be made up of five milking cows and other animals. It would be a terribly serious thing if any migrant from the west of Ireland to, say, Meath or Westmeath drove his herds in on land affected by that disease and had his whole herd blown as a result. The Minister should take some steps to ensure that on land which is set—and these migrants are in the habit of availing of such land which is set occasionally for a year or two by the Land Commission—there will be no danger of disease to these herds, as it could be serious from a national point of view.

We all know and should appreciate the importance of the cattle trade to the whole economy of the country. I understand that the number of in-calf heifers is down by something like 13 per cent. I can advance an explanation for that. I know of people who thought they would do better by buying the heifers and getting them in calf and then running them on and feeding them and selling them as advanced stores or as beef. A number of these people have told me that, instead of making money on getting the heifers in calf, they actually lost money. They said they would have got more for the cattle had they kept them up to the stage of the advanced store beast or kept them on and finished them as beef. I suppose they were poorish quality heifers in calf, in the first instance, or did not make a good showing or were not very saleable as goodclass milkers. The price of such animals was as low as £35 and £40 and then the calf was worth only £15 or £20. Add the £40 and the £20 together and that means £60, whereas a 10-cwt beast would draw probably £70 or £75. So, instead of having made money on the transaction, some of them lost money. I think that that could be an explanation as to why heifers in calf are down in number at the present time by 13 per cent.

It is an extraordinary state of affairs, too, that the total output from our agricultural land has dropped by something like one per cent. Now, one per cent is not a big jump one way or the other but unfortunately for us it is a jerk or jump in the wrong direction. It is not the first time it has happened, particularly under Fianna Fáil rule. They always seem to be in the doldrums so far as agriculture is concerned. When it came to giving protection to the farmers, it was always very difficult to get a Fianna Fáil Minister for Agriculture to move. On the other side of the scale, when industrial workers looked for increases they were able to get their fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth and ninth round but the farmers were not able to get these increases.

It was mentioned here already today that the farmers have to work a seven-day week in order to earn a livelihood. Deputy Dillon quoted the case today of a farmer's son he met from Boyle in County Roscommon, a young fellow who could have taken over a 40 or 50-acre holding from his father. When Deputy Dillon asked him what he was doing and where he was going, he told him he was on his way to Birmingham. The reason he gave was that he could earn £18 or £20 a week there and that he could not possibly hope to earn that money on his 40 or 50-acre farm in the vicinity of Boyle, County Roscommon.

I cannot see how it arises on the Supplementary Estimate.

I am pointing out, in relation to farm prices and incomes generally, that I think the farmer has got a bad deal and is likely to continue to get a bad deal while Fianna Fáil are in office because Fianna Fáil have never believed in Irish agriculture. All their lives, they have been trying to wreck it. This document which is here before us today substantiates what I have been saying.

Pigs were mentioned in the course of this debate and some Deputies have spoken at length on the pig industry generally. I am convinced that this whole industry has been very badly handled. I noticed in the newspapers yesterday or the day before yesterday that, amongst other strikes threatened, there is a danger of a strike among bacon factory workers. That is one of the worst things that could happen. We all know the importance of being able to market pigs when they are ready for sale. The fact that they would have to be fed on, because the factories might be closed down as a result of strike action, would mean that the farmers would have to keep pigs for an extra fortnight or three weeks.

Is the Deputy not delighted with the new co-operative in Balla?

Fortunately for us, there are no politics in my county committee of agriculture. The Opposition members there have always worked with their colleagues on the committee in a spirit of harmony and co-operation. There is one Fianna Fáil member there, Mr. Anthony Jordan of Louisburgh, who is really very interested in that and who has done wonderful work in furthering that pig fattening station at Balla. You can also count on my co-operation if you convince me that you are putting your house in order.

For over 20 years in my business, I bought from 100 to 200 pigs a week. That business has long shut down. I know that 17 of the people who worked in it are now to be found in London, Birmingham or elsewhere. I should be happy to see it restored again not for my own sake but because it would mean a lot to my neighbours. I have managed to live without it but I have had to live, despite the fact that it was part of my existence. I had to shut the door. I have not come into this House to propound a policy to suit myself. I like to see my neighbours prospering, and I have their interests in mind when I raise that point.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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