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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Mar 1966

Vol. 222 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 12: General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provisions in connection with finance.—(Minister for Finance).

Before I reported progress, I was speaking of the circular sent by the Minister for Local Government to the local authorities during the past week. This is a most important matter and should be discussed in connection with this Budget. According to this circular, housebuilding in every county in Ireland is slowly grinding to a halt. In County Westmeath, we are committed to an expenditure of £131,000 and for the year 1966-67, we are permitted to spend only £92,000. As of this very day, we are short of £40,000 to meet our commitments of last year. We have called a special meeting of the county council for next Monday to tell the people the truth, that the money is not there.

I have been speaking to other county councillors and I have heard from them that it is the same all over, in Cork, Limerick, Mayo and Galway. The amount of money allocated for next year will not meet present commitments. What is the use of the Parliamentary Secretary coming in here— the Minister for Local Government is absent today when this most important matter is coming up—and saying that the emphasis is on the building of new houses. What is the use of saying that, when the county councillors of Ireland know that they cannot meet their present commitments, never mind getting new loans or grants for the coming year.

I want to put this question to the Government: why not tell the people the truth? Is it the idea to keep up this bluff until the Presidential election is over? We have said here that, fortunately the economy is sound but that the Government have gone bust. The people have no confidence in the Government. The Shannon Scheme was described by the people opposite and by Deputy MacEntee as a white elephant but a few weeks ago it could float a loan for £7 million which was oversubscribed in ten minutes. The people of Ireland have lost confidence in the Government and, according to Deputy Moore, there is a pessimistic outlook throughout the land.

What are you quoting from?

I was here the evening you spoke and I wrote down what you said.

That is not what he said.

Surely it is time you told the people the truth? Remember that in 1939 Churchill promised the people of Britain blood, tears, toil and sweat and the people had confidence in him because he told them the truth. However, people such as Deputy Dowling and his Government have kept the truth from the people of Ireland for the past couple of years and they are still keeping the truth from the people. You are trying to carry on one great bluff hoping something will turn up and provide money for the Government to meet their obligations. Even at this late hour, if the Government took the people into their confidence and came into this House and made statements here, it would be much better than statements made by them at meetings of chambers of commerce or at Fianna Fáil meetings throughout the country.

We had an answer today by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Flanagan, when Deputy James Tully asked him a simple question. Deputy Flanagan snubbed him and would not give him a proper answer. We have had experience of that type of arrogance as the stock in trade of the Fianna Fáil Party for a long time but it will not get anybody anywhere. Even at this late hour, Fianna Fáil should take the people into their confidence and tell them the truth. The country might still be saved. But, as I have said, when you see a circular going out to local authorities of the kind I mentioned, it is obvious that the position is very serious.

In case Deputy Dowling does not know it, the circular states that it will be necessary to finance approximately ten per cent of the global capital allocations for county council areas for housing and sanitary and miscellaneous services from sources other than the Local Loans Fund or from internal resources—we may put it on the rates now. Here is an example. They mention receipts from the sale of land. The corporations and the county councils are now told to go out and advertise their property, to sell some of the land they have and to realise some of their assets.

The Official Receiver will be in any time now.

Whether or not they will sell the offices they now have and rent others, I do not know. There is a special mention of the repayment of advances for house purchase loans. The poor unfortunate people who got loans spread over 30 years are now in the position that they may expect a letter from the county council asking them if there is any chance that they can repay the money they borrowed within the next few months.

From what is the Deputy quoting?

I am quoting from a circular sent out to every county council in Ireland by the Department of Local Government on 22nd March, 1966.

It is now being referred to as "Bluffer Blaney's blarney."

Deputy Harte should allow Deputy L'Estrange to make his speech without interruption.

With all respect, I am assisting him.

Deputy L'Estrange is a fair bluffer.

The Minister for Local Government is the greatest bluffer in Ireland. He has tried to bluff his way in this House over the past year.

You bluffed your way into it.

Any time a question was addressed to him about a loan or a grant, the Minister for Local Government said the matter was being examined and that payment would be made in due course. He is not here today because he knew that members of the Opposition would quote this circular to him and remind him of what was in it and call an end to his bluff.

Bluffer Blaney's blarney.

There is an obligation on political Parties who seek office to tell the people the truth and not to mislead them or fool them as Fianna Fáil have misled them over the past years.

Like you did. What did you tell them in 1956 and 1957?

The truth. Any Party seeking election to office should tell the people how they will use the power to be entrusted to them. Things are bad in Ireland today but we did not think they were as bad as they are until we received this circular which was sent out to the county councils in the past few days. I want to say here and now that the election deceit of the Government has at last been found out. The financial crisis which is upon us at the present time and which the Taoiseach and the then Minister for Finance, who is now Senator Dr. Ryan, and other members of the Government, last January so falsely denied before the general election is now revealed, officially acknowledged and is felt by each and every one of us.

We all know that Britain has her difficulties today but they are due to her huge commitments abroad. Our difficulties are due to the mismanagement of our own Government and are largely due to internal causes. They are coming upon us at a time when we are in a position to take effective action. The Deputy who was heckling me a few moments ago asked about 1956. Our present difficulties are coming upon us at a time when we are getting record prices for what we have to export—not as in 1956, when there was a Suez crisis and when the Minister for Transport and Power was making all the political capital he could out of it. The only constructive thought we got from the people now sitting on the Government benches came from Deputy Moran who was trying to do all the harm he could by references to the devaluation of the £. We got every sort of obstruction from the Fianna Fáil Party at that time. If the Deputy does not believe me, let him read the Dáil debates.

Which one?

Quote the volume.

You can read up the Dáil debates of that time. To trace the reason for the financial crisis and the present mess and the root of the economic distress and industrial unrest we have in Ireland today, we have to go back to February, 1963, when the Government issued a White Paper Closing the Gap: we all remember it. Its purpose was to underline the dangers of living beyond our means. Our people were told they were spending too much money and that it was clear we could not maintain that level unless we earned more, worked harder, and so on. We have heard all this from Fianna Fáil before. That bright young dynamo, Deputy B. Lenihan, the Minister for Justice—he does not look like a hard-working man—told us all last week that we must take off our coats, roll up our shirtsleeves and work harder in the future. I would say that a little action is worth a lot of words and is much better than words.

According to that White Paper, the Departments, the State-sponsored organisations and all others were urged to make no more demands for higher wages until we increased production and exports. When a reasonable appeal is made, the people rally behind the Government. That appeal brought a reasonable response. Until the autumn of 1963, we had stability. Wage demands were few and strike demands were few. Then the Government introduced the iniquitous turnover tax, a new form of tax in the history of this country, which was imposed on bread, butter, tea, sugar, medicines and other necessaries of life. I heard Deputy Ó Ceallaigh go back to 1927. I shall not take up the time of the House in quoting what Fianna Fáil said in the past about the poor who were dependent on subsidies and their insistent assertions that they would never dare to do away with the food subsidies. On 28th February, 1957, the Taoiseach said:

The coalition leaders are threatening the country with high food prices and a lot more besides.

He said that if Fianna Fáil became the Government, they did not intend to do any of these things. He asked: "How definite can we make our denials of these stupid allegations?" That quotation can be found in the Irish Independent of 29th February, 1957. The statement was made by the Taoiseach at Waterford on 28th February, 1957. He asked: “How definite can we make our denials of these stupid allegations?” Not alone did he reduce the subsidies immediately after that but he put a tax on the necessaries of life. Fine Gael pointed out at that time as did Labour and others throughout the country, the bad effect of this ill-conceived policy. A tax on necessaries of life was bound to increase the cost of living and kindle again the flames of inflation with all their harmful effects and it would do irreparable harm to the economy.

All our forecasts have proved right. There was a sudden jump in prices; the cost of living began to rise. The Government called for restraint but the workers' paypackets were not purchasing as much as they did in the past. Fianna Fáil supporters argue that the turnover tax could only have minimal effects on prices. Were Fianna Fáil so innocent as to believe that a policy of restraint could be maintained in the new conditions, with higher prices and the cost of all foods, medicines and necessaries of life going up in a situation which Fianna Fáil had created themselves? That was a major tactical error and the starting point of all our troubles. No less a man than the Minister for Transport and Power told us that inflation was a dirty word and that we had inflation since 1962. If so, it is a wonder he did not whisper it into the ears of his Cabinet colleagues. If he did so, why did they not heed him?

The next move was a clever political manoeuvre. The deaths of two Deputies suddenly closed the gap. The Taoiseach changed horses in midstream. He took up his pen and wrote a letter and anybody can see in the Irish Press of that time displayed across the front page the headline: “The Gap between Spending and Income has closed”. How it closed we have not been told since. Neither the Taoiseach nor any member of the Government gave any figures to prove to the people that this gap had closed. The Taoiseach simply wiped out the picture he had been painting throughout the year and drew a bright new one in optimistic Fianna Fáil colours.

Then we had the famous 12 per cent as a bribe to the electorate of Cork and Kildare and £40 million was injected into the economy. I do not blame the people for voting for Fianna Fáil at that time when they were told by Fianna Fáil that there would be no increase in prices, that merchants and traders would absorb the turnover tax, that it would not be passed on to the consumer. Having won the two by-elections, the Taoiseach switched horses again and proceeded to sound dire warnings through the spring and summer of 1964. Among them he said that the 12 per cent was more than we should have given. He was now back in the position of backing the employers. We were told we had taken a mortgage out on the future. Productivity and exports would have to go up to cover it and we were told there must be no more wage demands. The arguments may have been valid on statistics but they did not follow logically what the Taoiseach and the Government had been saying before the Cork and Kildare by-elections. Once more the Taoiseach was contradicting himself, but what of it. So far as he was concerned, he had won two by-elections by bribing the people. Fianna Fáil were back safely in power and the circus went on.

The people saw through the Government and their broken promises and Fianna Fáil lost Roscommon to Deputy Mrs. Burke, East Galway to Deputy Donnellan and Mid-Cork to Deputy Mrs. Desmond. The economic crisis was getting worse and Fianna Fáil knew the full facts. They had all this information at their disposal and they knew the full facts about the recession that was about to come upon us. They knew it would become worse and they decided that the only thing to do was to have a general election.

Again they changed horses and showed they were prepared to stop at nothing to cling to power. Overnight, on this occasion, according to Fianna Fáil, the country became more prosperous and the message was preached at every crossroads, on the radio and television and in innumerable speeches by the Taoiseach and even by the present Minister for Finance. Unfortunately, I have not got the cutting of his speech but if he questions it, I can get it. At Dundalk or Drogheda, he promised 86,000 new jobs between that time and, I think, 1970. I remember that distinctly.

There was a full page advertisement in the Sunday Press of 4th April, 1965, where one read in huge type: “This is no time for a change”. What a change came about when Fianna Fáil returned to office! This advertisement continued:

Does it make sense to exchange the Fianna Fáil Programme—which is working successfully now—for a leap into the past with Fine Gael, Labour or a Coalition?

I do not think the past could be much worse than the present and only God knows what the future holds. We were told that Lemass was leading on but we do not know where he is leading us at present. The advertisement continued:

Our recent prosperity is not yet strong enough to withstand the shock of a change of Government.

We now find the prosperity they spoke of so loudly was not strong enough to withstand the shock of Government by Fianna Fáil for four or five months. The advertisement continued:

In this crucial general election you must ensure that Fianna Fáil is enabled to carry on with a working majority so that the economy is given a chance to continue expanding without confusion, delay and indecision.

When Deputy Ó Ceallaigh spoke here today, he asked why did the people vote for Fianna Fáil so consistently over the past 30 years. There is the reason: Fianna Fáil were prepared to promise the sun, moon and stars, prepared to use the people's money and inject it into the economy, not caring what harm they did at the time if they were able to win by-elections or general elections and keep themselves in power. What confusion do we find today among the local authorities when, as the Minister for Finance knows, a letter has gone out to them telling them to sell land or any property they have to meet their obligations. What delays have we seen in this House when county councils that had applied for grants to pay out loans on houses built six, eight or ten months——

I must remind the Deputy he has only three minutes left.

Questions were five minutes late.

Acting Chairman

I am sorry; the Deputy has only three minutes.

I shall obey your ruling, Sir. The Sunday Press advertisement continues with the words: “The best is yet to come”. Is it any wonder people voted Fianna Fáil when they read those advertisements? It should have read: “The worst is yet to come”, but if that were said, people would not vote for them. To those people I say that we are in the present mess because of the bad government and mismanagement of Fianna Fáil and because that Party are prepared to put the Party first and the country last. They have proved that in the past 30 years and they will spend the people's money to get themselves and their followers back into office and enjoy its fruits. Those who do not believe me may remember that Deputy Smith resigned from the Government because, as he said, the Minister was running with his little satchel, bending and humiliating himself to meet certain people. He said he would not live with that kind of tyranny.

An ex-Minister for Finance who was Tánaiste in the Fianna Fáil Government in a letter in the Irish Times on 12th March, 1966, answers the question of the Minister for Finance: “What went wrong with my Budget?” Deputy MacEntee, who says he was Minister for Finance from 1932 to 1939, said in his letter that outstanding among the chief culprits he placed the astrologers and soothsayers who deluded our people with fantasies of the affluence which awaited them when we got to the end of the rainbow some years hence. Who are the soothsayers? Is there not proof in that advertisement I have read that the astrologer and the soothsayer was no less a person than Deputy Seán Lemass, the Taoiseach, and he is condemned in the words of Deputy Seán MacEntee.

We are coming to the concluding stages of the debate on the Budget. Because of a change in Standing Orders, there has been a little widening of the scope of the debate. It might be no harm to consider for a moment what is before the House in this Budget and the fact that the Budget does not start at the beginning of the year or end at the beginning of the year.

When a Government comes to frame a Budget and to draft a Financial Statement and to decide on the taxes to be imposed, very often their considerations are affected by what has happened in previous years, not only the years immediately preceding the Budget but years long before that. A Government who have just taken over office, with no long record of government, could well excuse themselves at Budget time by pleading that they had just taken control and had only now got possession of the facts and figures on which they had to base their Budget. Such a Government might well be excused if they came before the House and said that they had to find an extra £12½ million out of revenue.

Of course, that is not the position of the Fianna Fáil Government. They did not take over just in 1965. They have long years of experience in Government. Any Opposition Deputy, whether from the Labour Party or any other Party, is entitled on this occasion to remind the public at large of the whole basis on which the Fianna Fáil Party have operated down the years and to remind them of the failure of the Government to take appropriate action at the proper time to avoid imposing unnecessary taxation on the shoulders of the ordinary citizens.

The Fianna Fáil record is fairly well known. They have fairly capable publicists. There is a newspaper that serves their purposes fairly well. However, some parts of their record should be called to the attention of the people again and again. On any occasion on which they find themselves in a difficulty, they have visited hardship on the ordinary working people in our community. They do that either by the attempted imposition of Trade Union Acts or by wages standstill orders and such panoply. They have done it repeatedly. At the same time, they have been notorious down the years for making either direct or implied promises to the people that, providing they support Fianna Fáil, everything in the garden will be lovely, if not next year, the year after that or some other year. This was particularly the position in recent years. In addition, they, or some of their spokesmen, have the habit of chiding contributors to a debate on the Budget and seeking from them cures and solutions for problems which Fianna Fáil, by their inept government and their inept Ministers have got the country into and, as one of the Fianna Fáil Deputies, Deputy Dowling, did yesterday, they query Deputies whose views are not in accord with the views of the Government as to why they did not vote for the necessary taxation.

This must be answered at this stage. It is necessary to remind the Minister for Finance and all his colleagues, and I as a Deputy fully admit, that there were problems in 1956. Did Fianna Fáil vote at that time for the imposition of the necessary taxation to provide benefits and so on for the people? No—they went into the division lobby against it. Yet, their spokesmen are asking the Opposition today why should they not support a revenue Budget of £12½ million. There is a very clear and definite answer. It is because the raising of the money to fill the gap now facing the country will be at the expense of the ordinary citizens and the necessity arises from the failure of Fianna Fáil not only to take adequate steps but even to deal with the people in a reasonable and proper manner.

I and other Deputies were quite well aware of the antics of Fianna Fáil in 1963 and 1964, the antics of their Ministers and spokesmen, indicating that what they wanted was heavier expenditure under nearly all headings, their almost written request and urgings to local authorities to provide schemes on which money could be spent from capital which I do not know that they felt was available even at that time.

During the coming year, the people on whom these taxes will fall are the ordinary people of the country. It might be interesting to examine as to who some of these people are. Take the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. Take the table at page 9 which shows the average actual earnings of workers in transportable goods industries. The table shows that the average actual earnings of those workers, whether engaged on a normal week's work, engaged in overtime or employed under incentive bonus schemes, and so on, were, in the month of September, 1965, 216/8— £10 16s. 8d. Such workers represent a very considerable section of the community on whom these indirect taxes will fall and a great proportion are persons with wives and families whom they have to maintain out of these average earnings.

The same table indicates the position of agricultural workers on the minimum wage rates and shows that in September, 1965, they had 160/9 per week—£8 per week. This is the payment of agricultural workers after so many years of Fianna Fáil rule. This is the Government who repeatedly promised a land flowing with milk and honey. If anybody could exist on these minimum rates of wages anywhere, I do not think it would be possible in this country. It appears that there would be a parallel with some of the people living in underdeveloped countries, such as Africa. Very few people on these benches have ever considered that Fianna Fáil have any real regard for the ordinary agricultural workers or the very small farmers. They rely for their support on the large farmers and rich ranchers. I do not drink and I do not smoke, but I know that the majority of these people do and the increases under these headings are going to fall on these people and will indirectly affect their families. It is unfortunate that in our society when a man takes a drink and the price of his pint goes up, he will continue to take the same number of pints and the hardship will be on his family.

Not many years ago Fianna Fáil were promising 100,000 jobs. That was reduced to 86,000. Let us have a look at their performance. In the same document, on page 98, there is a table for the estimated total labour force and number of persons at work in main branches of economic activity in April, 1961 to 1965. This interesting table shows the advances we have made under the Taoiseach, Deputy Lemass, the same type of advance as we made under his predecessor who is now President. We always appear to be advancing down some little alley way and then emerging worse off than we were before. For instance, in 1961 in non-agricultural economic activity, the number of workers was 673.8 thousand and in 1965 it was 712,000, or an increase of 38.2 thousand. It appears to be a very satisfactory position until we look at the numbers employed in agriculture, forestry and fishing in 1961. The figure was something over 378,000 while in 1965 it was 338,000, a reduction of 40,000 in the period.

This was a marvellous achievement and well up to Fianna Fáil standards. Perhaps the figures were wrong, but as they are published in this booklet, I presume they are official. The same table gives the figures for the total at work, which was 1,052,000 and the total at work in 1965 was 1,050,000. I am sure the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Agriculture, must be priding themselves that they are doing a good job. They are getting people out of employment. Obviously while we are concerned in this House to see an increase in industrial activity, we are also concerned to see that the numbers employed should not go down but should rise fairly steadily. There is little use in anybody going to the hustings and saying: "We will have 100,000 new jobs by a certain date", if by that date you reduce employment by 120,000, because there is a net loss of 20,000. Of course, we have emigration to take care of that problem.

In the same booklet we have projections for 1966 and I quote:

Industrial employed increased by 14,000 in the two years and came close to the annual projection for this sector. Employment in the other domestic sector increased, though at a rate well below that projected; estimation of employment in this sector in an inter-censal period is difficult and it is possible that employment may have increased by more than is indicated in the table. The increases in employment in the industrial and other domestic sectors are, however, completely overshadowed by the unexpectedly high rate of decline in employment in the agriculture, forestry and fishing sector.

I presume the Minister for Agriculture is responsible for this position. I have heard him being called "The golden boy" but he must have been a "platinum boy" to arrive at this result.

The fall in employment in this sector in 1965 alone was equal to the growth in industrial employment in 1964 and 1965. The fall in the two years 1964 and 1965 was two and one half times the annual average projected in the programme, and exceeded by 25 per cent the annual average figure in the period of the First Programme.

That is not very pleasant reading for our community. It continues:

The projections for 1966 suggest that there will be some fall—perhaps 3/4,000—in employment in that year;

That is not much. It is no harm from Fianna Fáil's point of view to say that there may be 3,000 or 4,000 fewer in employment in 1966. I wonder is this part of the reason why they are not going to hold the local elections? Perhaps somebody might have the bad manners to suggest that members of the Fianna Fáil Party who have such an inefficient Government are hardly worthy to be returned to the local authorities because they might make the same mess as the Government have done at national level.

The paragraph continues:

increases in industry and services will be more than offset by a reduction in agriculture, forestry and fishing. If this projection is realised, the average annual increase in employment required in the period 1967-70 to achieve the programme's target would be nearly 23,000.

It appears that the only possible way in which you can make progress along those lines is to change the whole Front Bench of Fianna Fáil. On their record for the past five years, they have been striving to bring about a situation of fuller employment. I am sure they have read the leaflet issued in 1957 by the Irish Congress of Trades Unions giving a plan for full employment, but they do not appear to have grasped how to put that plan into operation. It goes on:

Past experience suggests that it will be extremely difficult to increase employment at this pace.

This is the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. It indicates clearly what the position has been under Fianna Fáil Government for the past five years and what the position is likely to be this year.

I wish to pass now to the Report on the Economic Situation issued by the National Industrial Economic Council. During recent months, the Taoiseach and members of the Government have been talking about the serious situation in regard to industrial unrest. In paragraph 43 of that Report, page 36, we read:

An example of the dissatisfaction with existing differences is the attitude of manual workers towards the relationship between their earnings and the earnings of various clerical or other office workers. There also appears to be dissatisfaction among wage earners generally with the differences in conditions attaching to their employment as compared with salaried employment: in very many cases there are, for example, differences in security, pension rights, holidays, sick pay and hours of work.

Paragraph 44 states:

There is a feeling that there is no justification in equity for the extent of the differences that currently exist between different kinds of income, that is, between wages and salaries and profits, dividends, capital gains, professional earnings and incomes from rents ...

We did not hear much about capital gains in the Budget. The Minister for Finance kept away from that. He imposed an increase in taxation on the ordinary workers in industry and agriculture but he kept away from doing anything about capital gains. Neither did he make any specific effort to draw into the net of the Revenue Commissioners the considerable sums of money obtained by one means or another by a fairly large section of the community who do not complete the normal income tax returns, who are self-employed or in a certain elevated state in agriculture or so on. These are overlooked but the ordinary taxpayer is required to meet the heavy burden of the increases.

Paragraph 44 continues:

The extent of these differences, and the feeling of inequity to which they give rise, are highlighted and, perhaps, even exaggerated by the impressions created by particular instances of conspicuous affluence in business entertainment or ostentatious living by the few ...

I like those words "conspicuous affluence in business entertainment". The Minister and his colleagues should be able to talk at length on this because many of them make their principal political announcements at that type of entertainment rather than here in the House. The paragraph continues:

To the extent that people have these impressions, whether justified or not, they influence their attitudes towards what is regarded as an acceptable rate of increase in their real and money incomes.

I have read those paragraphs because they bear on another point I should like to make in regard to the record of this Government. I understand the Government have accepted that Report in general. Certainly, as far as their own employees are concerned they have not accepted what is contained in the paragraphs I have read. Today, after many years of Fianna Fáil Government, there is a large percentage of wholetime unestablished employees in every Department of State who have no sick pay provisions. The State, headed by a Fianna Fáil Government, by Ministers who lecture us on all forms of economic and social theory, has not taken the time to look at its own employees. Many private undertakings could show a good example to the State in this regard.

It is not as if the question has never been raised. The question of these wholetime unestablished employees in the Department of Defence, the Department of Justice and the Board of Works has been raised repeatedly for years, but nothing has been done. Consequently, these people on wages of £10 to £11 per week are the one section in the Government employment who, if they meet with illness, have to fall back on social welfare schemes and have no payments from their employers. This is all in all with the approach of the Government to social welfare payments. The Government should give a lead. The Taoiseach is on record as indicating—I do not know whether the Minister for Finance did so also—that if there is any justification for an increase in wages and salaries, it would only arise in relation to the lower-paid workers. The people I referred to earlier in agriculture and industry all come under that heading.

What about the people employed by the Department of Justice in the Four Courts and other places as night watchmen? They work for seven days a week at night work for less than £10 a week. The most reactionary employer in private employment would hardly get away with that type of wage. These are forgotten people. I do not criticise civil servants getting salaries commensurate with their responsibility. But I think in these matters of salaries and wages the Minister for Finance and his colleagues should direct the Secretaries of their Departments to look at the wage rates paid to Government employees and to examine whether they provide even a meagre living for these people. We must make comparison between those employees who are engaged on night work spread over the nights of the week, including Sunday night, and civil servants—and again I am not criticising them—who have a five-day week with normal hours. There should be some concern for these other people.

Those are some of the reasons why this Party do not find it possible to support the taxation proposed in this Budget. They supported the one item of taxation which would meet the provisions for the social welfare cases. At one time the dancehall proprietors were the darlings of Fianna Fáil. This time there is a tax imposed on dance-halls, and we supported this tax because it would help to relieve distress. The Labour Party did not support the other taxes because they are imposed to endeavour to cover up the faults and failings of the Fianna Fáil Government not only in 1965-66 but in 1964-65, 1963-64 and so on.

Building is in a parlous position at the moment. Building activity, as compared with last year, is reduced by 50 per cent. I do not know whether the Government are concerned about the situation, having regard to the fact that the level of activity in building has a tremendous effect on the level of activity in every other sphere in a country. I want to confirm what Deputy L'Estrange said earlier this afternoon, that bad as the situation appears now, it will be much worse in the coming year.

The local authority of which I am a member also got a circular in connection with the Capital Programme for 1966-67, and this is a beautiful lesson in economics. The amount for which provision is made this year is just over £6 million, £3,500,000 of which is for the purpose of servicing the capital expenditure on the Ballymun project, but if that consortium does not operate to the extent that they will require the £3,500,000, there is no suggestion that it could be used for other essential housing construction or development. A sum just short of £3 million is to be reserved for housing construction and development. The interesting fact is that practically all that money is already committed to contractors who are doing building work at the present time, and the amount of money that will be available for new schemes—and this will possibly be the situation in every local authority area in the country—will probably not exceed a couple of hundred thousand pounds. In other words, what will be said to the local authorities is: "Do not send up any schemes except for less than ten per cent of what you need."

On the question of supplementary grants and loans, the same position applies. There are hundreds of applicants for SDA loans in the local authority area of which I am a member, lodged since January, and only a percentage of those applicants have any hope of getting a loan as a result of the issue of this circular. I am sorry the Minister for Local Government is not here because I had the pleasure of seeing letters from his Department in 1964 impressing on Dublin Corporation the desirability of submitting schemes—hurry on, hurry on—and yet there are schemes with that Department since September, 1965, for development work which will affect the provision of dwellings for the next year or so. The details of what can be done will possibly have to be examined, but certainly there is only a minimal amount of money being made available for new schemes in 1966.

Under every heading this Government have been failures. They have not provided the necessary number of new jobs. In regard to educational activity, even there, I am sure there will be a cut-back in the provision of schools during the coming year. We know it is not in the Capital Budget, but, in the light of the circulars coming out at the present time, the Capital Budget is hardly worth the paper on which it is written. It reminds one of the previous prognosis of so many new jobs each year. If money is provided for new schools, what is the position of the children coming out of those schools, if the Government fail to secure opportunities for employment for those young boys and girls? Will the figures for emigration continue to rise. The figure in 1962 was 21,000; in 1964, it was 26,700; in 1965, it was 27,300. This is a marvellous record for the Fianna Fáil Party, for a Government with all the experts they are supposed to have.

There is no use in the Minister for Finance or any other Minister saying in this House that something went wrong in 1965. That is a very poor excuse having regard to their statements in 1956 when they were on this side of the House. In Europe as a whole, there has not been any great cut-back in employment or in the credit position in 1965 as there was in 1956. This country has not been affected by the situation in Europe. It has been affected by inefficient—I shall not say "ill-advised"—government. The Government's advisers prepared programmes. They are no longer called plans. Indeed, many years ago, the present Taoiseach used to be very critical of plans and Fianna Fáil are still somewhat critical of plans. Now they call them programmes. If there is a plan, they are compelled to accept some responsibility for taking steps to ensure that that plan is carried out, but, if it is a programme, they can say it is simply a projection which may be carried out if someone else does the work. In this fashion the Government then can, in fact, try to plead ignorance of the real situation.

There is then the matter of the Government's approach to social welfare recipients at Budget time. Once more we have had the meagre increase and, in order to make sure they will save something on that meagre increase, it will not come into operation until some months hence.

One matter that appears to be escaping the attention of the Government altogether is their complete failure to deal with prices, a failure which has resulted in all kinds of difficulty and confusion. The situation has got out of hand and workers who have had to face an increase of 10.4 per cent in the cost of living since 1963 are now told they should be satisfied with an increase of three per cent. We have adverted to this before. The year 1963-64 was the time in which the Government should have examined the situation and taken remedial action. That was the time to ensure there would be no increase in prices except where such increases were publicly justified. We do not contend that prices should in no circumstances increase. We are quite well aware of the fact that if the cost of raw materials coming into the country increases, prices must naturally increase. At the end of 1963 and in 1964, two sections of the community took advantage of the situation. Those with goods to sell increased their prices and the Government took advantage of the ninth round wage increase negotiated between trade unions and the Federated Union of Employers and other groups. The Minister for Finance cannot deny for one moment that his Party did not take full advantage of that situation.

We never claimed we gave the 12 per cent.

May I point out to the Deputy that he has about 3½ minutes left?

I shall finish in that time. These are some of the factors which have influenced the Labour Party to vote against the imposition of this taxation. I recommend to the Minister that, in relation to the imposition of taxation, he should do two things. He should endeavour to secure that those who are presently escaping the taxation net and enjoying good living at the expense of the ordinary taxpayer and the ordinary wage-earner, whether industrial worker, agricultural worker, or white-collar worker, are brought within the scope of that particular net. Secondly, he should pay some attention to the people who get substantial increases in income from capital gains —from gambling. If the ordinary worker is required to bear this burden of increased taxation, the Minister is equally responsible for securing that no one escapes paying his just share of either taxes or rates. The Fianna Fáil Government conveniently overlook this all the time. There is no doubt that at the moment there is a close affinity between the Fianna Fáil Government and those who are determined to prevent the workers from securing a justified increase in their wages and salaries.

When the Minister opened this debate, he posed a question: he asked what had gone wrong. This Budget debate has since then been in the nature of an inquest presided over by the Minister. Indeed, the Minister actually answered his own question, though he seemed to be in some doubt as to the veracity of his answer. Since he posed the question, he has heard many answers in this House and he can be in no doubt as to the intent of those answers. The plain truth is the Government have blundered in their conduct of the financial affairs of the country and must now accept the responsibility.

There is in this Budget a heavy increase in taxation designed to bridge a large deficit. As the Minister admits, the alternative of borrowing is out of the question since the Capital Budget has got out of hand and any borrowing that might take place would be necessary to bring it back under control again.

The Minister for Health characterised this debate as sterile. The Budget we have been discussing was prepared by the Minister, approved by the Government, submitted, I assume, to the Fianna Fáil Party for their support, and it came in here sure of a passage on the strength of the votes of the Fianna Fáil Party. What else could the debate be but sterile? Decisions have been taken and, no matter what discussion took place, the Minister and the Government were determined that the proposals would be pushed through. What we have been engaged in is really a mockery of the democratic process. There is no use in pretending that anything said from any side of the House other than the Government side would have any weight with the Minister regarding the Budget.

There was invariably from the other side of the House a resentment of criticism, of any attempt to see if there could be a putting together of the jigsaw puzzle of what had happened to the economy on this occasion. It was a very good tactic on the part of speakers on the Government side of the House, and particularly on the part of the Minister for Health, to indulge in the well-known strategy that when you are on the defensive, you should attack. The best thing for the Minister for Health and others over there to do was to attack the Opposition for their temerity in calling the Government to account for their administration of the financial affairs of the nation. The Government are now in the role of the improvident spend-thrift who, having squandered his money, is now full of good intentions for the future, if he is given more money to spend. The Government now promise that they will do better in the future.

They are just stumbling along and this is most at variance with the situation as the country found it presented by members of the Government 12 months ago. Then we had Government speakers telling us on every possible occasion how well off the country was. Rosy pictures were painted for the people and all they had to do to continue to have everything good was to return the Taoiseach and the Government to this House. People will remember the appearance on television of the Taoiseach when he said that he would put the economy on such a sound basis that no Government would ever afterwards be able to shake it. It seems to me that on that occasion he miscalculated his own unsettling prowess.

The Minister for Finance spoke of the traditional role of the Budget as the regulator of the economy but for some time now this fashion seems to have disappeared and the Budget is no longer the regulator of the economy. It is being used more and more as a political instrument. The situation into which we have been put now is a result of political decisions being taken, it would seem, for mere Party interests. We have had a solemn declaration of intent on the part of the Minister for Finance that this Budget is going to do all that he claims for it. He tells the House that it is a Budget of reality, and that there will be no further increases in personnel or expenditure. But no sooner is this Budget through the House than we will have the inevitable supplementary Estimates coming in afterwards. These are brought in here and the Minister and the country will have to pay for these supplementary Estimates in the proximate future of the next Budget.

I am indebted to the Minister for Health who tells me that the Irish people at the present time are well briefed with the spate of documentation and statistics issued to them. The Minister said that they are well aware of the situation, even more so than some members of the House. I wonder if the public have ever had put before them the hard facts, if they have been told that expenditure in this country has risen from £119½ million in 1957-58 to a figure in this current Budget of £250 million. These are harsh facts but they are the facts which the public ought to be brought up against so that they will know the source of the problem now facing the country.

One boggles at the fashion in which these figures are glossed over as if they were trifles. Every year since 1959 expenditure has been going up and up and up. If we take the figures in the revised Abstract of Estimates—I wonder why the series was discontinued because it was of some interest to the people—we find that expenditure in 1959-60 was £6.1 million up on 1958-59; in 1960-61, it was £8.07 millions up on 1959-60; in 1961-62, it was £11.26 millions up on 1960-61; in 1962-63, it was £20.9 millions up on 1961-62; and in 1963-64, it was £18.99 millions over 1962-63. Why does it go up in such a spiral? It would remind one of the increase in the cost of living.

One could sacrifice a balanced Budget for the sake of a balanced economy. Even a higher level of expenditure could be envisaged, if there were no chance of inflation. But in this country at the present time we have a higher level of expenditure, we have inflation and we have unbalanced Budgets. We have all three. The balanced Budget has been sacrificed in vain because the unbalanced Budget has not done what should be expected of it. There is much more need by way of explanation from the Minister as to what went wrong with the economy.

I should like to know what watch was kept on the financial affairs of the nation, or what scrutiny there was and what changes were observed in the trends of our economy. I should like to draw the Minister's attention to some figures in this connection. I do not intend to quote these figures at any great length but in the Appropriation Accounts for 1964-65, receipts are shown at £219,045,000 and issues at £253½ million. How much of that excess was attributable to capital issues? This is a very pertinent question for the Minister for Finance.

In regard to the repayment of issues under the various Acts, we find on the same page that the ESB paid back £820,000 to the Exchequer. Right across the page we have an issue under the other ESB Acts of £1.3 million. We have, under the Transport Acts, a payment of £300,000 and across the page we have an issue of £300,000. Under Industrial Credit we have a repayment of £1 million and across the page an issue of £1.3 million. I should like to know from the Minister if it is true that, actually, this capital was not made available to these bodies at all but was kept in the Exchequer in the nature of a drawback or issues that should have been made, and, when there was need for money, that that is what happened to it at that level.

On the same statement, we have the situation regarding money raised by the creation of debt. Saving certificates brought in £6.5 million and Prize Bonds £6.26 million. Across the way, we have repayment of Saving Certificates £2.975 million and repayment of Prize Bonds £2.94 million. In other words, small savings were declining Certainly, it was known to the Minister and his advisers that they were declining in that year, that savings were down and that net savings were only in the nature of £6.84 million. Surely, then, the trend ought to have been clear that there was this excess of issues over revenue receipts, that there was this curtailment or had to be a curtailment of credit for State enterprises, that small savings were declining. Indeed, if one took note of what was being made available for Telephone Capital Account, which is traditionally financed by the Post Office Savings Bank, one could equally see that here, again, the trend was that small savings were declining.

Another set of figures which I think it is pertinent to bring to the attention of the Minister are those published in Iris Oifigiúil which show the income and expenditure from 1st April, 1965, to 11th March, 1966. The total revenue is £224 million odd and issues £246 million odd. Perhaps the Minister would tell the House how much of this excess was due to capital needs. We have the same picture in regard to the other receipts into the Exchequer.

Under the Turf Development Acts, we had £404,000 being repaid while we had issues of £1.39 million. Even with such a small figure as that relating to Sea Fisheries, we had £54,000 odd being repaid against £30,000 issued. Again, under the Electricity Supply Acts, we had £880,000 odd coming back to the Exchequer out of issues of £1,070,000. As if these were not sufficient indications, there are the figures for the creation of debt. Ways and Means advances total £51.94 million and yet we had a repayment of £74.7 million. Prize Bonds brought in £4.33 million and £2.36 million was repaid.

Saving Certificates brought in £4.8 million and £3.125 million was repaid. In relation to other borrowings totalling £11 million, £12.7 million was repaid. Here again, there was certainly food for thought for the Minister in regard to the situation. It is the same type of pattern. You had the issues exceeding revenue, with this drawback of capital, and you had this further decline of small savings to which the Minister himself referred and, on this occasion, it was disastrous in so far as small savings were concerned because we came down to £3.65 million net small savings. Yet, in the face of this, the Estimates were prepared. I do not think we should call them Estimates any longer in this House—a nearer word would be "Guesstimates"—because it seems that there is nothing firm about them, one way or the other. No sooner are they made than they are changed.

In an attempt to be somewhat different from what the Minister for Health thinks us to be in regard to this debate, might I suggest to the Minister that the time has arrived, irrespective of who is here, for the establishment of an Estimates Committee of this House? What is the use of a Public Accounts Committee of this House examining expenditure when it is past? What is the use of commenting on various facets of that expenditure when there is no opportunity for this House to examine the requirements for revenue and expenditure purposes? I certainly would have more faith than evidently some of the speakers from the Government side of the House have in regard to the calibre and intent of the membership of this House in regard to such an operation. I believe it would be an exercise well worth while. The membership is there to do it. Even though they have been classed by the Minister as second-rate politicians, I believe that their integrity, their ability and their honesty in regard to this matter could be relied on to the hilt by the Minister.

I did not classify anybody as second-rate politicians.

The Minister for Health described the Opposition as second-rate politicians: I have the reference.

I am not denying it; only do not attribute the statement to me.

I do not attribute it to the Minister for Finance at all. I certainly think my suggestion would be an operation that would achieve nothing but good. It would bring the membership of this House into close touch with the realities of the financial affairs of the country and of the Minister and his Department. If they did no good in their suggestions, they certainly could not do any harm in the suggestions they might have to make, coming, as they do, from the various constituencies, from the very rural ones to the urban ones. They would bring a fresh approach to these problems and certainly, afterwards, they would be able to justify their decisions in this House.

One of the things that strikes one in this regard is the vast sum of money which is expended outside the control of this House—moneys which are passed to State bodies. In the Estimates for this year, no less a sum than £29.23 million of moneys provided by this House will fall to be spent by bodies outside the control of this House. The only controlling factor that exists is that these sums will be examined by the Comptroller and Auditor General. However, once he has finished with his audit, it no longer is the interest of this House, unless Members are prepared to pursue these statements to the Library and elsewhere and to get a thorough appraisal of what is in them. I seriously suggest to the Minister that this House, as the custodian of the money of the people, is entitled to advice from experts in regard to the examination of these accounts and that so large a sum as this amount should certainly fall to be examined by a Committee of this House.

It need not be the Committee of Public Accounts: it could be a Committee of all sides of the House. We have had such Committees in the past. I see no reason why anybody should fear an annual investigation of such accounts. In the light of what has happened, it is certainly time this House had an opportunity of examining closely this type of expenditure. These sums in the main are under the aegis of the Department of Agriculture which, if you take Agriculture and Fisheries at present, are responsible for passing on for expenditure something over £17.3 million; Industry and Commerce, £5 million; Transport and Power, £5 million; the Gaeltacht, small as it is, £240,000; and Posts and Telegraphs, £1,750,000.

To come back to the term applied to this debate by the Minister for Health, its sterility, he suggested there are some people outside the House far more competent to express an opinion regarding this type of expenditure than Members of the House. I should hate to think the Minister was to be taken seriously, that he would reflect on the Members on all sides of the House in this way because, despite all the talk the Taoiseach had recently, and Deputy O'Malley in Limerick, in speaking of preserving the democratic process and democratic rights, this is the place where such rights are preserved. Here is where the rights of the people rest, where the rights of elected representatives rest.

Hear, hear.

Here is where Ministers and the Government get authority for the taxation imposed. I would be slow to think that this House or any House in the future would lightly pass on its responsibilities to anybody outside it. Surely when the Minister and the Taoiseach speak in terms like this, it reminds one of a great dramatist of this city: "I Must be Talking to Myself."

"Looking into my heart."

I think this approach is unworthy of both the Minister and the Taoiseach. One could pursue it further. The Government are drawn from the membership of the House, and if any Minister denigrates the membership of the House, he denigrates the Government drawn from it. If he speaks of second-rate politicians, then we must equally have second-rate Ministers and no matter how well they may be briefed, they can never produce first-class decisions.

Hear, hear.

Expenditure at central and at local authority level is continuing to rise. We are aware of the amount of that growth over the years. I am sure the Minister has available to him the trend in regard to local authorities at present. Despite the effort made, which was indeed welcome, of coming to the assistance of local authorities in respect of health expenditure, an examination of the rating situation so far as I could gather up to date, of 19 local authorities and the rates they have struck, shows that the average increase over the 19 is 4/9¾ in the £ in the current year. This is a further impost on people who will have to provide the revenue at any stage.

I have said, and I shall repeat even to the point of over-emphasis, that speaking of the revenue and the Exchequer do not convey to the public what should be conveyed to them, that the money comes out of their own pockets at all stages. There is no secret factory the country or the Government have to produce money or credit, and whatever efforts the Government may make, they can only do so in so far as they take money from the public to do it. It is a fallacy which ought to be nailed and finished with that there is some secret mechanism whereby Governments can make money available for desirable projects. There is no way beyond taxation and the savings of the people. That is the only way.

Regarding this problem, which is part of the Minister's problem, the expenditure of local authorities, it is only fair that the Minister should tell the House when concluding what the position will be as regards financing the operations of local authorities. In the past few days, they have had from the Minister for Local Government a circular dealing with the allocation of money for housing. It has been a great shock to them to find that the allocations are not what they expected and that we have and will have a serious situation developing regarding planning of local authority housing in the coming year.

A point which was stressed before in the debate, and blame was laid on previous Governments in this respect, is that you cannot slow down a housing programme without doing irreparable damage to the programme in succeeding years. The prospect will certainly not be a very nice one for those who expected that housing schemes would be carried out in various local authority areas—this applies to town, village and country areas— to find that there will be a serious cutback in the amounts made available to them for their requirements. Quite a lot of this money is already committed to schemes already in hand. What it will mean, certainly in regard to new schemes or projected works, is that there must be a rethinking on many occasions to determine priorities in regard to how work will proceed at local level. There is no reason why the Department of Local Government which draws its finances from the Central Fund should not have made known as yet to local authorities its intentions in regard to issues for roads or sanitary services.

The Minister is proposing in this Budget to take 25 per cent in road tax and to use it for the benefit of the Exchequer. Allocations to the Road Fund have not as yet been notified to local authorities. How could anybody expect a county engineering service to plan its road services for the future when it does not know what the allocations will be?

The Minister said that he felt the honest approach was the best approach. I believe the Minister has been honest in that. But, how honestly have the facts been presented to the House or to the people? That is the important question which the Minister and his Government have to answer and on which they will be judged. At the present time, so far as the public are concerned, there is grave doubt as to anything they have been told when they find that things they felt would go correctly are not going that way and that they cannot depend on the kind of promises that were made to them.

The Minister said that we were in a happy position, a much happier position than other countries were in, in regard to our budgetary prospects. As has been pointed out already, it would be completely unfair to compare the positions from the point of view of income and expenditure without having regard to the circumstances in this country vis-á-vis those in other countries which have large defence commitments. For instance, in Britain, of £1 of revenue, in 1959, expenditure on defence was 5s. 8d. In the 1960 Budget, expenditure on defence was 5s. 5d. of every £. In this country taxes on income have gone up from 5s. 7d. in the £ in 1963-64 to 5s. 9d. in 1965-66. Incidentally, we find that non-tax revenue was declining at the same time, from 3s. 2d. of every £1 in 1963-64, to 3s. 1d. in 1965-66.

In regard to expenditure, although I have heard of all the benefits that have been conferred on the public in this respect, we find that in regard to social services the position has been absolutely static. In 1963-64, we spent 6s. 10d. of every £1; in 1964-65, 6s. 10.; in 1965-66, 6s. 10d. It is remarkable that the health charge has remained static at 1s. 3d.

Questions were asked here as to why more should not be done in regard to health, particularly when a service like education was getting more. I find that in 1964-65, 2s. 5d. of every £1 went to education; in 1965-66 it dropped to 2s. 4d. So, instead of there being an increase for education, there was a decrease on this social service.

The amount of every £1 that we contribute to our defence services, taking the Army and the Garda Síochána together, was, in 1963-64, 1s. 7d.; in 1964-65, 1s. 7d.; in 1965-66, 1s. 6d.

These figures certainly belie the assertion made that we must pay for better services. The Minister will have to show much more convincingly that services have been improved. If he can disprove the figures I have quoted, I certainly will be very glad to acknowledge it, but until such time as that is done, we certainly cannot preen ourselves on the much publicised progress we are supposed to be making.

Our capital programme ran into serious difficulty. One must ask the Minister why did it happen? Why did the Minister, who is the custodian of finances, allow this capital programme so to get out of hand that the figure was in error around £24 million in the past year and how was it that such a deficit as £8 million occurred in regard to a Budget when there was opportunity of having it vetted by the Minister, his advisers and the Government before its presentation here? How did these things happen? The House and the country are entitled to this kind of information.

At present it is exceedingly difficult to find capital. The Government are experiencing difficulty in finding capital. The private sector is having extreme difficulty in getting capital. If any is available in this sector, it is only to the very odd private person. I am sure the Minister knows quite well that the Agricultural Credit Corporation have a long list of applications from the farming community seeking aid in order to increase farm production and that the farming community are being put off and applications are refused.

The record of the Government as displayed by the Budget provisions can be summed up by saying that in their approach to the problems before them they have been acting in a puerile fashion. In regard to the management of the economy of the country, they have been futile because the economy seems to have got out of hand. I certainly agree that unless the coming year brings some improvement, it can be said that the conduct of the Government in charge of the financial affairs of the country has been, not alone in the past year, but in the previous year, sterile. It has produced no result which would give hope that at present the economy can, without great sacrifice or effort, be brought back to such a state that everybody is going to feel more confident about it in the future.

I must call now on the Minister.

I am sorry the Minister finds himself in that situation but he would be less than honest with the House and the public if he did not try to explain these factors to the people.

The Minister, to conclude.

This has been an unusually long debate and probably has followed what might be expected to be the usual pattern of a Budget debate. It was only to be expected that Opposition Deputies should seek to score whatever points they could pick off in a debate like this, especially in a Budget in which there was new taxation. However, some of the most important points that were made from the Opposition benches were inaccurate and based on wrong assumptions. I hope, in the time at my disposal, to be able to demonstrate this to some extent. As many Deputies pointed out, the Budget is the principal instrument, though not the only instrument, by which the Government can fashion their economic policy. One of the first functions of any Budget is so to organise the nation's finances as to ensure as far as possible that revenue and expenditure will balance. Another of its important functions is to create the climate in which economic progress can best be made.

On the first of these points, the objective of the Budget to make income and expenditure balance, I want to reassert what I stated in the course of my Budget Statement, that there is no question whatever of my budgeting for a surplus. I said clearly in my Budget Statement that I was budgeting for a balance and no more. The allegation that I am budgeting for a surplus does not stand up to examination in the light of the estimates of receipts and expenditure provided before the Budget. The plain facts of the matter are that current expenditure for 1966-67 is estimated at £262 million and the revenue, at pre-Budget rates of taxation, is estimated to yield about £250 million. The resultant gap of about £12 million had to be met by increased taxes, since in view of the general economic situation, and in particular, the difficulty of financing the public capital programme, it would be indefensible to budget for a deficit which would have to be covered by borrowing.

It has been contended that I did not take adequate account of the revenue buoyancy and that some reduction could have been achieved in the incidence of taxation by making the traditional allowance for errors of estimation. In the light of the experience of the current financial year, in which an allowance for errors of £4 million was made, and where a deficit of some £8 million appears to be likely, it would be clearly unrealistic, and indeed, I might suggest, dishonest, to pretend that the Budget could be balanced in this manner. The revenue buoyancy in recent years reflected the rapid growth in the economy, and in particular the rapid rise in incomes. The projections for the economy in 1966 do not envisage a large increase in incomes or, consequently, in consumer spending. It is clear, therefore, that we cannot expect the same degree of buoyancy as heretofore. This is reflected in the published estimates of revenue. It would be inconsistent to expect on the one hand, a moderate rise in income and on the other, a disproportionate increase in revenue.

Therefore, I should like to scotch any idea that there is in this Budget undisclosed revenue buoyancy sufficient to meet outgoings as we see them now, without the necessity of raising taxation this year. I should like to say, with all the conviction that I can summon, according to the best of my judgment and on the best advice available to me, that taxation at the level now proposed and Exchequer income from other sources, will provide no more than will be sufficient to cover expenditure as set out in the Book of Estimates. Therefore it follows that if extra expenditure arises in the coming financial year, it must be met either out of savings on the current Estimates or from extra taxes.

In regard to the possibility of getting savings on the current Estimates, I want to say that this year the Estimates of each Department were examined and pruned as perhaps never before. Each Department's Estimate was rigorously scrutinised and demands for new services, except where absolutely necessary, were resisted. Indeed, some Estimates were cut so near the bone that they will require all the vigilance of the Department of Finance and of the responsible Department, and all possible restraint, to contain them as they are. Therefore, if current expenditure will have to be increased for any proposal for new or expanded services, or for pay increases in the public service, then I may have to come back again to the Dáil with proposals for raising the necessary additional revenue.

I should like to comment on the suggestion made by Deputy Jones in regard to an Estimates Committee. He said there should be an Estimates Committee drawn from all Members of the House but I am not too clear as to the functions Deputy Jones would give to such a Committee. Under the Constitution there is imposed on the Government the responsibility of drawing up Estimates for public expenditure and responsibility for ensuring that the corresponding income will be there to meet them. I do not think it would be possible in the first instance to derogate from our Constitutional obligations, and secondly, it would not be right for any Government to palm off part of its responsibilities on the Opposition.

Deputy Jones also mentioned the fact that much of the expenditure that we provide here and vote on is spent by organisations and people who have no responsibilities to this House. I take it that he was referring to many of the State companies that have been set up by statute and to which, by Acts of the Oireachtas, we have deliberately given that freedom of action which will enable them to compete in the spheres in which they operate. These activities if they were to be curtailed or under scrutiny or review by the Committee of Public Accounts, or whatever other organisation or group suggested by Deputy Jones, would certainly to a large degree be encumbered, beyond what their competitors would have to face. However, as Deputy Jones in his capacity as Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts is aware, following a recommendation by that Committee, I have under examination suggestions made in this regard and will duly report to the House on them.

I was referring to the obligation of avoiding deficit budgeting in the current year. Some Fine Gael speakers, notably Deputy T.F. O'Higgins and Deputy J. A. Costello, seemed to suggest that the extra taxation was not justified on economic grounds and was contrary to the advice contained in the Progress Report of the Department of Finance and the commentary on that Report by the NIEC, and that it was against the general economic interest at the present time. This is certainly not true. Indeed, there is no justification whatsoever for the view that the present economic situation calls for a deficit on current account in 1966-67 following the estimated deficit of about £8 million this year. To frame a Budget on these lines for the coming year would have maintained the inflationary tendencies observed in the present financial year. It certainly would be unjustifiable in a period where capital is short for necessary expenditure for productive purposes deliberately to create a situation in which such a deficit would have to be covered by borrowed capital. I will not go into great detail on the public capital programme. As Deputies are aware, the capital programme was covered in several documents recently, commencing with the White Paper which was laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas in October, 1965, and culminating in the Capital Budget for 1966 as published.

In relation to the suggestion made that the announcement conveyed by the Minister for Local Government to the various local authorities indicated a cutting down on the capital available for housing, sanitary services and building and construction generally, that is quite untrue. As far as I am aware, the amount indicated by the Minister is fully in accord with the publication of the Capital Budget as referred to specifically in Table 7, which indicates that the amount provided for building and construction, for housing, sanitary and other services is in excess of what was provided last year. That is still the position.

But the rate of capital public expenditure is of course governed by the resources available to finance it. In this connection I should like to repeat the statement made in paragraph 20 of the White Paper to which I have just referred to the effect that the possibility of financing the full capital programme for 1966-67 as outlined cannot be assured. Therefore, if it transpires during the course of the coming year that the available resources are not adequate to finance the capital programme, then that programme will have to be reviewed.

I might say in this respect that for many years it was not necessary to have much concern about the draws on that capital programme because the amount of economic activity being generated in the country was not sufficient to exhaust the capital resources available to us or within our procurement in very many ways. But because economic activity has been generated considerably in the past six or seven years, there has been an increasing draw on available capital resources to the extent that the draw on and use of capital resources have outrun those resources. Therefore, on both capital and current account, it is the intention of the Government to ensure that expenditure and resources will keep in line. This is the only basis on which real and lasting progress can be made.

It gets tiresome to hear speaker after speaker from the Opposition benches saying there is nothing in this Budget for this and for that. I suppose it is part of the old exercise of repeating an untruth so often that the people will come to believe it. the Budget of course must be taken in the context of the Book of Estimates as published and of the public capital programme and must take account of and provide for all the items of expenditure contained in these two documents. What is often highlighted in a Budget is the topping-up operation of increasing the income, in other words, increasing taxation, in order to meet higher expenditure where existing rates of taxation are not sufficient. This is often done to meet improved benefits and the tax increases, in the minds of Deputies and in the public mind, are directly related to increased benefits. But these increased benefits which are specifically mentioned in any particular Budget are often very marginal. More than often they are invariably very marginal when compared with the total expenditure of which the Budget has to take account.

In the current year this total provision includes, for example, for Social Welfare, £44 million for this year as against £37 million in the year just ending; £17 million for the Vote for Health compared with £15 million; £36 million for the Vote for Agriculture as against £32 million. I am not suggesting these figures tell the entire story about any of these services, certainly not about agriculture. I am not suggesting that of all the millions I have mentioned every penny goes into the farmer's pocket, but I will refer to agriculture more particularly in a few minutes. Nevertheless, these figures give an indication of the increased expenditure in general for which the Budget has to provide and, I suggest, give the lie to these inaccurate and insincere suggestions about there being nothing in this Budget for this and for that.

Tut, tut.

As I said, I will deal more particularly with agriculture. In the first place, it is estimated farmers' incomes generally will increase this year by about £5½ million as compared with last year. That was an agreed figure in the recent review of agricultural incomes. In most of the important areas where the Government assist agricultural expenditure and incomes, there is an increase in the provision over last year. For example, the butter and milk support at £12.64 million is up by £2 million; the fertiliser subsidy is increased; the provision for the Land Project is up; so is the farm buildings and water schemes provision; education and research in agriculture have increased; and the agricultural grant for the relief of rates is increased from £12½ million to £13½ million. Deputy Molloy gave very detailed figures this morning and it is not necessary for me to repeat them. There was also an increase of 10/- per barrel allowed for the 1966 wheat crop. I am not suggesting that it is an immediate Budget commitment or obligation, but wheat prices, as every Deputy knows, can ultimately give rise in one way or another to extra obligations on the Exchequer.

I do not think it necessary to refer again to the benefit that will accrue to agriculture under the Free Trade Area Agreement which will come into force on 1st July. These benefits include an assured outlet for all the cattle and sheep our farmers can export to the British market, the reduction from three months to two months of the waiting period before our store cattle qualify for the British price guarantee, and the linking, for the first time, of exports of carcase beef and carcase lamb, to the extent of 25,000 tons in the first case and 5,500 tons in the second, to the British guaranteed payments system.

Which amounted to?

I am afraid I have not got the figure. I can say that the Government have intimated that they will carry any subsidy or any assistance of a similar nature in excess of the 25,000 and 5,500 tons, respectively.

I am sure the Minister realises that will be practically nil.

Not necessarily. However, it is an undertaking that will be met, if and when the time comes. In view of the suggested action by dairy farmers of picketing Leinster House after the Easter recess, perhaps I may be permitted to say something more particular about milk. I think it is agreed that the farmers income from milk—and again I refer to the recent review—will be about £60 million this year, about £3 million in excess of 1965, and of this the Exchequer will provide, as I said a minute ago, over £12,500,000.

Is the Minister taking into account that there is £1 million in his own figure for farm workers' wages? Does he intend to deduct that from the £3 million they are getting?

I do not know how the farm workers' wages will affect the hoped-for increased income of the farmers.

It will leave them £1 million short.

The Deputy will leave me short of time.

I should like to look at the effect an increase in the price of creamery milk would have on butter prices. It is estimated that it takes about 256 gallons of milk to make one hundredweight of butter. On that basis an increase of 1d per gallon on milk would add about 2?d to the price of 11b. of butter. Therefore, an increase of 3d would add about 7d to the price of butter. Having regard to the fact that the subsidy is paid direct to the creameries, it is possible, when one takes account of the amount of butter exported, the increase in the price of butter in the home market might even be higher. A suggestion has come recently from the dairy farmers that 4d a gallon extra should be paid on the first 7,000 gallons of milk delivered by each farmer to the creamery, and 2d a gallon on the excess over that quantity. I believe that the great majority of farmers who send milk to the creameries would qualify for the full value of the 4d increase for 7,000 gallons. It is estimated that this would cost about £5 million, if the Exchequer were to pay for the increase, and if we are to take account of the 2d a gallon over 7,000 gallons, it might add up to £1 million more, making in all about £6 million.

This proposition would involve substantially increased taxation, or, alternatively, on the basis of the rate of increase to which I have just referred, about 1/- per lb. in the cost of butter. This would certainly not be in the interest of the community at large and, indeed, of many farmers, some of whom do not supply milk to the creameries and many who do are small farmers with big families and would lose out in the long run. I need not refer to the increase which would occur in the price of delivered loose or bottled milk.

I should like the people who are contemplating this action to reflect on these figures, to reflect on where, if the entire sum is to be met out of taxation, that taxation can be raised. I should like them to reflect on this fact, that the Irish people are well known to resist pressures or compulsions of any kind. The Government are composed of Irish people who have, by and large, the same characteristics as the ordinary Irish people. Therefore, they might reflect on these things before this action is taken.

Deputy Corish referred to agricultural credit and criticised the Agricultural Credit Corporation for their lending policy in that they required certain securities and certain money-in-hand from people who sought credit from them. It is only fair to say that the Agricultural Credit Corporation will lend up to two-thirds of the market value of the applicant's farm. Within this limit, it is very rare for any applicant to have to put down any part of his own money in order to qualify for the loan. There are, in addition, special arrangements under which farmers can get loans up to £500 without any security whatsoever. I might mention, too, having regard to the general criticism about borrowing from the Agricultural Credit Corporation, that there is this year, as I explained in more detail last week, £3.6 million available for credit for productive purposes, which is £500,000 more than was availfor similar purposes last year.

Deputy Corish devoted much of his speech to industrial progress and an incomes policy. He commented on the fact that I did not deal with employment, unemployment or emigration in the Budget speech. I should like to refer him to the concluding part of the Budget speech where I said that in view of the recent documentation and the debate on the economic situation which we had here in November last and in January and February, I did not think it necessary to go into it again.

Deputy Corish, however, referred in this context, in particular, to the rate of new industrial development and inquired what the progress has been. I have not got the complete, up-todate figures, but I should like to refer to the figures supplied by the Industrial Development Authority reports in the past three or four years which will indicate that the rate of new industrial inquiries, new industrial starts, is well up to standard. In 1963, there were 148 inquiries, a slight falling off from the previous year. Forty-one of these proposals were approved and £3.61 million grants approved, providing for an estimated 6,200 new jobs.

There was a falling off in 1964 and there was a recovery again in 1965 when out of 124 proposals received, 37 were approved with grants up to £3.99 million, providing for an estimated 4,200 new jobs. I can say that for the first nine months of this year, for which figures are not yet published, the rate of inquiries continues to show this solid improvement. The rate of approval has even exceeded the total rate for 1964. The rate of grants has considerably exceeded the grants for 1964, and the potential employment also.

The Minister will appreciate that I related my remarks to the forecast of the NIEC of the loss of another 4,000 jobs next year.

I thought the Deputy was referring specifically to the new industrial proposals.

I went to some trouble to get the figures for him.

As well as that, I should point out that there was in connection with the negotiations in the British Free Trade Area a review of the projections in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. That review was taken in conjunction with management and trade unions and, at the end of last year, it was anticipated that the projections in the programme for industrial output and industrial employment in the transportable goods area would have to be revised upwards.

On the matter of an incomes policy, I was surprised to hear Deputy Corish say that the Government in trying to implement such a policy would implement it only in relation to salaries and wages. The NIEC Report specifically pointed out that all categories of incomes would have to be taken into account. The recommendation, as the Deputy is aware, has been accepted by the Government and that was made perfectly clear in the debate on the Report last January and February. I do not think it necessary to discuss it in any great detail again. Suffice to say that the Government reject any suggestion that in formulating and implementing an incomes policy, they will have regard only to wages and salaries. The suggestions contained in the NIEC Report on the implementation of an incomes policy bringing incomes other than salaries and wages within its scope are now being actively examined by the Government.

Suggestions have been made in the course of the debate, and from time to time outside this House, that we ought to try to evolve a different tax structure. I should like to examine this suggestion for a moment. In considering changes in forms of taxation, two factors must be borne in mind. First, we must avoid, as far as we can, making the tax burden harmful to the economy in general or unduly severe on any particular section of the community. Secondly, regard must be had to the gains or losses likely to arise for the revenue from any changes we might make.

Taxation may be generally divided into two categories, direct and indirect. Direct taxation, such as income tax and surtax, is progressive in character and care must be taken that by making it too severe, we will not stifle initiative because higher earnings arising from harder work and greater enterprise would, of course, be diminished considerably by an undue burden of taxation. Such a development is clearly undesirable in our present economic situation and, as was stated clearly in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion, it is the intention that reliance will continue to be placed on indirect as well as direct taxation. It has often been suggested that the rate of surtax should be increased, thus confining the effects of increased taxation to those who best bear it, those with the higher incomes. However, it is as well to remember that the yield from an increase in this tax would be very low since there are only about 5,000 surtax payers in the country and the total yield at present is in the region of £2.7 million. Further-more, I should like to point out— Deputies on the other side have pointed this out from time to time—that the incidence of taxation is more severe here than it is in the United Kingdom when one reaches an income somewhere between £3,000 and £4,000. There is grave danger, therefore, that increasing surtax further might act as a deterrent to management expertise coming into this country, management expertise which we badly need; indeed, it might act as an inducement also to drive out some of the managers we have.

It should be noted that the Commission on Income Taxation considered the question of substituting alternative revenue in whole or in part for income tax and came to the conclusion that no complete substitute was available. When we consider then whether there should be another form, or a transfer to indirect taxation, we can, I think, clearly reject that as being unfair since such a tax would take no account of the circumstances of the individual and would, therefore affect the ordinary wage earner more than the better off section of the community. The scope for major changes in the tax code is not as great as might be expected and for the present, at any rate, we must live with the overall code as we find it, trying to strike a fair balance between direct and indirect taxation.

Deputy Corish mentioned the possibility of a capital gains tax. This, again, was examined by the Commission on Income Taxation and is dealt with in considerable detail in that Commission's Report. Chapter 4 reads:

On the whole the disadvantages of a capital gains tax at the present time largely outweigh its advantages. It would create a good deal of inequity, no matter what modificacations or safeguarding clauses were provided. It would affect the marketability of investments and encourage the outflow of capital. It would be difficult and costly to administer. The revenue from it would at best be doubtful, and for many years would probably be negligible.

The arguments that can be adduced in favour of this tax certainly highlight some of the imperfections in our system of income taxation, but the grave disadvantages associated with a capital gains tax leave us no option but to recommend that it should not be introduced.

Some of these disadvantages, of course, are the deterrent effect it might have on inducing industrial and other forms of investment into this country.

Is the ordinary rate of income tax on the overtime of workers not as stifling, and the Minister must know that?

It is a deterrent, of course, and the same applies to profits, so far as corporation profits tax is concerned.

Suggestions were made about the possibility of increasing personal allowances. As the House is aware, I did make one such increase in the child allowance for children over 11 years of £30. I did so deliberately because Irish people are known for the sacrifices they make in order to educate their children. More and more children are now going on to postprimary education because we are making greater facilities available for that education and I thought that increasing the allowance was the fairest thing I could do within the limits at my disposal. If I might mention some of the other increases in allowances that were proposed, and what they would cost, the House may perhaps take a different view. A single and widow allowance increase of £10 would cost £1 million in a full year. A married allowance increase of £20 would cost £700,000. An increase of £10 in the child allowance would cost £400,000 and a similar increase in the dependant allowance would cost £220,000. To introduce such increases would, therefore, clearly involve raising extra taxation to a considerable extent.

Attempts were made in the course of the debate and, indeed, outside the House, to disparage the Second Programme for Economic Expansion and to suggest that the difficulties encountered in the past year invalidated the Programme and its targets.

Some people have gone so far as to describe the Programme as a dead letter. Such an attitude shows little appreciation of what a programme of seven years' duration is. I do not think it is possible to state with greater clarity what the Second Programme is than is set out in the Programme itself. In Part I, paragraph 5, it says:

In a democracy the national economic programme cannot be authoritarian. It proceeds on the assumption that there is widespread public agreement on making as much economic progress as possible and on the means by which such progress is to be achieved. Objectives and priorities are outlined but the Programme does not in every instance specify how they are to be attained. Rather is it educative and indicative, combining help and guidance from the State for private enterprise with direct State action where this is needed to ensure full use of productive capacity. Targets may be set for the main sectors of the economy but it would be unrealistic to break these down into targets for individual enterprises. The penalty—and it is no light one— involved by failure to reach a target is the slowing down both of individual and national progress. Programming involves making the most reasonable estimate of the increase attainable in total production on certain assumptions about major factors such as population, individual output, exports, capacity to finance capital needs. An attempt must be made to foresee the relative contributions of agriculture, industry and services to overall expansion and to define the economic and financial policies needed to secure maximum output of competitive goods and services. It is only if these policies are effective, and internal and external conditions are favourable, that the desired growth rate can be achieved. A target is an indication of the progress the economy can make if certain assumptions and conditions are fulfilled; it is an aim, not a promise.

There are certain matters that need to be understood in regard to the Second Programme and its targets. The first is that while selected targets were to be aimed at in 1970, it was never stated that this was only possible where the same rate of growth was maintained each year. Indeed, it stated exactly the opposite when it said, and I quote:

The actual expansion achieved may vary from year to year, reflecting variations in the level of economic activity, internal and external. Fluctuations in the rate of growth are inevitable and, indeed, natural.

The impression seems somehow to have gained ground that the 1970 targets have now somehow become irrelevant because growth in 1965 happened to be at a slower rate than the growth in the previous years. In fact, the growth rate dropped from four per cent in the previous year to 2.5 per cent last year but that experience has been no different from that of many other OECD countries where there was a similar two per cent reduction in the growth rate compared with previous years.

The Programme states:

Flexibility is the essence of programming. At no point of time can it be said that estimates are final. There will be a continuous review of targets in the light of developments and of progress achieved.

That continuous review is going on at the present time and is going on actively.

I would now like to deal with some criticisms of foreign borrowing. The Second Programme recognised that external capital would be necessary for the purpose of implementing home investment. Paragraph 9, chapter 14 said:

It is considered appropriate to finance these deficits either by reasonable recourse to external reserves or by external borrowing, a general term which includes direct foreign investment in Ireland.

Paragraphs 16 and 17 pointed out that as a result of capital inflow, external assets would increase and that it would be undesirable for a developing country to prefer to accumulate external assets rather than, at the cost of tolerable balance of payments deficits, to promote a much needed rise in domestic production and employment. It also pointed out that so long as the foreign capital inflow was sufficient of itself to finance a balance of payments deficit of the order envisaged in the Programme, it might not be necessary, except the inflow diminished or for reasons of flexibility, to contemplate any significant recourse to other sources of finance.

Up to the end of 1964, this continued to be the case but in 1965 it became apparent that as a result of the increase in the balance of payments deficit, reserves were falling and direct borrowing would have to be considered. That was in July of 1965 and it was proposed to issue a loan on the Eurodollar market and not on the New York market. Since the imposition of the interest equalisation tax in the United States, no country subject to that tax has issued loans in New York.

The negotiations commenced in July, 1965. This was in the international bond market centered in Europe and consists in the main of dollar balances held by non-United States citizens. A New York finance house was selected to be the principal managers of the loan for the purpose of getting a quotation on the New York Stock Exchange and also for the purpose that if the interest equalisation tax was removed, we would be known and familiar in that market if ever we wished to get a dollar loan.

The interest rates on the Eurodollar market began to increase but that was not the reason the loan was not issued. Towards the end of 1965, large United States concerns announced their intention of seeking funds for international development by the issue of debentures and they were encouraged to do this by the United States authorities. It was intended that these issues would carry rights of conversion into the equity capital of these United States concerns. This would reduce interest in the international market for fixed interest securities. As a result of this pressure on the market, the Irish issue, as well as those of other countries, had to be postponed. We were in good company in that the European Coal and Steel Community was one of the issues that had to be postponed.

With regard to the Sterling-Deutschemark loan, the terms of the issue are seven per cent at 97¾ giving a yield of 7¼. These terms are high but they are the going rates. A recent issue by the Federal German Government itself gave a redemption rate of 7¼ and even this loan was under subscribed. We were successful in getting that loan. It has been suggested that because we had recourse to external borrowing, this country is on the verge of bankruptcy. There is an impressive list of other countries who have had recourse in recent months to the international bond market. These countries include Australia, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Japan and New Zealand. All of these prosperous countries with large development programmes have used external borrowing.

One of the most recent loans was by New Zealand which was an old customer of the international bond market. It was a loan for 15,000,000 dollars at 6½ per cent issued at 96½ which gave a yield at redemption of almost 6.9 per cent. Far from bearing out statements from the Opposition that our credit is not all right, what I have said goes to prove the fact that we were able to take our place with these other prosperous countries and establishes the fact that our national credit is sound.

Were these other loans for current development?

They were. I think we can confidently look to a reduction of our balance of payments position, 1966, because of a number of factors —higher cattle and beef exports at good prices; the likelihood of improved industrial exports; increased exports of ore; restraint of Government expenditure and the continuing necessity to restrict capital for other than productive purposes.

What about labour relations?

Order. The Minister is trying to make his speech.

But, as soon as income increases make their impact, some, at least, of this year's gain in the balance of payments is bound to evaporate. This can come about by reason of two important factors—(1) the extent to which pay increases make our products less competitive particularly vis-á-vis the British market and (2) because it is one of the facts of our economic life that, of every £ earned in this country, 8/- is spent on imported goods. It is particularly noticeable in times of pay increases, I think, that a reasonably substantial increase in the import of consumer goods occurs.

Therefore, the realisation of the gains in our general economic position and the gains in the balance of payments position to which I have just referred will depend, first of all, on the policy measures taken by the Government being effective. But big increases in incomes, prolonged industrial stoppages, reduced tourist income or increased public expenditure can make these ineffective. I do not intend to give a lecture to anybody this evening on industrial relations. I know only too well the difficulties management and trade unions have in these matters: I have some experience of it. However, I say that, if restraint is exercised in expectation of wage increases and profits in the current year, the more competitive we can become and the sooner we can return to job security, to greater progress and to industrial expansion.

Deputy J. A. Costello said last evening that the Budget came as a shock. I know that Deputy Costello is a busy man who is not always able to attend the House but I am sure he will remember major debates here on the economic situation in July and November of last year and in January and February of this year. If I am not mistaken, I think he voted in the divisions following some of these debates. The economic situation was fully discussed during these debates. Certainly, the Government did everything they could, both inside and outside the House, to make the position fully understood. Deputy Costello must be aware of the steps the Government took—apart from the debates that have taken place—to remedy the situation. They included a reorganisation of the capital expenditure programme to keep it within the limits of the Second Programme; the restriction of current Government expenditure—which he alleged was not being done at all but I can assure him now, as I said at the outset of this speech, that Government expenditure was pruned more rigorously this year than ever before; the encouragement of internal savings, including a tax inducement and the limitation of avoidable imports by credit and hire purchase restrictions. There were higher market development grants to encourage industrial exports. Again, that was something he suggested last night. Deputy Costello, apparently, did not seem to be aware of these things. He concentrated very much on part of my Budget speech last year when I said that the Department of Finance had roles other than that of being the watch-dog of the public purse. He went on to disparage the watch-dogs. They do keep a watch on what is happening but they have no magic regulator. Large deficits occurred before, even when Deputy Costello was Taoiseach, despite the vigilance of these same watch-dogs.

Among his remedies for the present situation Deputy Costello listed the need for confidence and then he proceeded to dispense gloom. He was unable to see how this Budget would help to strenghten the economic position of this country. I can assure him that it will do so by curbing inflation and reducing substantially the gap in our balance of payments. There is, I think a much better prospect for 1966-67 provided, of course, we cease to wallow in gloom, as Deputy Costello and many other speakers want to do, and get back to producing steadily. Deputy Costello was not the only member of the House who preached gloom. Other Deputies seemed to revel in exaggeration to the point of not caring what damage they might do to the country and its progress. I might take, for example, the statement by Deputy Treacy here last evening that "the country is in a worse position now than ever before since the inception of the State". I suggest that such nonsense is the halfway mark to immaturity.

What about Deputy P. J. Burke's sixpences?

There are people in Ireland who deliberately indulge in a self-destroying inferiority complex. It was difficult enough to clear away the air of gloom and despondency after 1956-57 but at least the long and sustained progress we have since then should show us what we are capable of as a community. We should stop being so desperately introspective and insular and realise that upsets occur in the progress of all countries.

Experts cannot foresee everything and make all assumptions come true. If we knew a bit more about contemporary Europe and the problems faced by other countries such as Belgium, Norway and Denmark, we could see our own in better perspective. We should cease making "crises" and "disasters" out of the inevitable and, I might add, the curable vicissitudes of economic life. We have to make adjustments but we are well on the way to recovery provided we stop moaning and bickering as we have been doing, particularly from the other benches.

What about the moaning you did in 1956?

We can get back to a steady growth rate we enjoyed on the steady work that we did since we suppressed the gloom and frustration in 1958.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 68; Níl, 64.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Boylan, Terence.
  • Brady, Philip.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Don.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fahey, John.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzpatrick, Thomas J.
  • (Dublin South-Central).
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Foley, Desmond.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, Hugh.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, James J.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lenihan, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Nolan, Thomas.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Burke, Joan T.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. K.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Fitzpatrick, Thomas J. (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary).
  • Hogan, O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, Denis.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lindsay, Patrick J.
  • Lyons, Michael D.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • Mullen, Michael.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, Patrick.
  • O'Connell, John F.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Tierney, Patrick.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Tully, James.
Tellers: Tá: Deputies Carty and Geoghegan; Níl: Deputies L'Estrange and James Tully.
Resolution declared carried.
Financial Resolutions Nos. 1 to 12 inclusive reported and agreed to.
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