Adjournment Debate: Housing Loans and Grants.

Mr. L'Estrange

Yesterday, I asked the Minister for Local Government if he is aware that there is a grave shortage of money to meet loans and supplementary grants for new houses in every county at the present time; and what action he intends to take to provide money to meet the obligations of the various county councils.

In his reply, the Minister said he did not agree with the implication in the question that there is a grave shortage of funds to meet commitments arising on foot of loans and supplementary grants already allocated by housing authorities. He stated that the implication in my question was unfounded.

Anything I stated yesterday is founded on fact. I am a member of the Westmeath County Council, a member of a local authority. I know the position in various local authorities. It can be said that, throughout the length and breadth of Ireland today, every housing authority is faced with the same difficulty, namely, a grave shortage of money to meet loans and grants. The Minister also stated yesterday that the allocation for supplementary grants is generally regarded by housing authorities as reasonable, in the light of their commitments and anticipated demands. I challenge him to give the name of one county council who believe that the allocations made by him are reasonable in the light of their commitments and anticipated demands. In Westmeath alone, up to the end of February or early March, we were committed, morally and in duty bound, to pay at least £171,000. We have been allocated a sum of £92,000 until March, 1967, which leaves us short of roughly £79,000 to meet our existing commitments. The Minister and some of his officials are trying to get out of it. They are saying that, legally, we are not bound to pay this money because from last September or October we sent out a notification to applicants stating "if and when money is available...."

Can you blame people for going ahead with this work? Can you blame them for building houses or for reconstructing their houses when, time after time in this House, the Minister for Local Government has pointed out that ample money is available and that there is no shortage of money to meet these commitments? The people are entitled to be told the truth. To the Minister for Local Government, politics seem no longer to be the art of the possible but an exercise in the avoidance of responsibility. Parliament here, I think, has become a place not where problems are faced or where questions are truthfully answered but where they are circumvented. I claim that the present is no time for evasion. There is no use in trying to mislead the public any longer. The people are entitled to know the truth and the full truth. I believe that this Government, and any Government, have a duty and a responsibility to govern the people and to tell them the truth as regards housing loans, housing grants and anything else, but certainly not to mislead them.

At the present time we may be heading for anarchy in this country. The duty devolves upon the Government to take the people into their confidence and to face up to their responsibility. The Irish people have been in difficulties on many occasions in the past and if they are aware of the full facts, they will always be able to overcome such difficulties.

The Minister denied the implication contained in my Question No. 13 on yesterday's Order Paper. Let us take a look at the Irish Times of today, 18th May, 1966. While, according to the Minister's colleagues, the Irish Times may be said to be the mistress of the Fine Gael Party, I think it is an intelligent paper. It tells the truth and gives the facts as it knows them and presents them without any political bias one way or another. The heading over the article I wish to quote from is “The Picture in the Building Trade—Rusting Machinery, Idle Workers, Emigration.” Then we read:

Machinery rusting in yards and workers boarding the emigrant ship has been the picture in the building industry—particularly in the house building sector — during the past year, according to the 1965-66 annual report of the Federation of Builders, Contractors and Allied Employers of Ireland, which was presented to their annual meeting in Dublin yesterday.

Official statistics, which state that work is being maintained at the same level as last year, simply do not reconcile with the facts, the report declares. Although there is enough work in hands at the moment to keep on most of those employed now, a further downward drift is expected.

This is a depressing state of affairs. It has been brought about by the mismanagement of the present Government. They mismanaged the affairs of this country and built very few houses here in the period 1957 until last year. The dead hand of Fianna Fáil has brought us into the position in which we are today, the position where, according to this report which is supplied by intelligent people, by people who know the full facts, the building industry is slowly grinding to a halt. Builders and workers are emigrating.

In my county and in other counties, there are houses lying half-built. The contractors have had to stop the work because of the uncertainty of the times. They do not know whether to proceed with the work and, if they do, whether they will be paid the loans or the grants. The builders are in a quandary. They are being pressed to pay bills. They cannot collect the money because the people for whom they are building the houses have no guarantee from any county council in Ireland that they will get the money, either for loans or grants.

I would ask the Minister to correct the impression, if it is erroneous, which is abroad in this country at present that housing authorities have had their projected housing programmes completely curtailed owing to lack of capital so that not more than one-third of their building schemes can be started this year. Furthermore, can the Minister dispel the gloom of the tenants of cottages who fear that badly-needed repairs will not be effected in the coming 12 months because he will not sanction loans for repairs? Already, he has refused two county councils, Wexford County Council and Cork County Council. Would the Minister clearly state what the position is regarding payment of supplementary grants by local authorities? I must assume the Minister is aware—he should be—of the position regarding SDA loans and the hopeless position of applicants seeking to build their own houses and being, at best, put on the long finger, if not refused outright, because of a shortage of money.

I should also like the Minister to refer to the cuts he is imposing—he cannot deny it—on the provision of sanitary services without which house building cannot proceed. Could the Minister give any assurance to the House that money will be available this year to clear up all the outstanding loans and supplementary grants due by different county councils and housing authorities? That affects my county and I think it affects many other counties. We would also like assurances that those who build their own houses and are building them at present will get their loans and grants, and also that those who have reconstructed their houses will get loans.

I deny categorically what was stated here yesterday by the Minister, that local authorities were trying to get the Department to clear up long-standing debts incurred by the county councils. That is deliberate falsehood, deliberate——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not say "deliberate falsehood".

Mr. L'Estrange

I withdraw the term "deliberate falsehood" but it is misleading and untrue. Anybody who knows anything about housing is aware that hardly any houses were built last year. In my constituency where we built 255 houses in 1956, for the past seven years despite the fact that we were writing to the Minister sending plans up and down, dotting i's and crossing t's, we built only 182 houses. Official statistics show that in 1956 as many as 4,011 people were employed in building of houses by local authorities. In 1962, it had dropped to 1,200, only one-third of the previous figure. In 1963, it increased a little to 1,800. Also, if we look up the number of houses built and reconstructed with State assistance, we find the very same trend. In rural areas in 1956, the figure was 1,648 and in 1964, it was 485, one-quarter of the number built prior to the present Fianna Fáil Government and the present Minister taking office.

There is no use in the Minister trying to delude us or to fool the people. The statement is in today's Independent and Irish Times and it is a statement by people who know what they are talking about. They have said that the picture in the building trade is of rusting machinery, idle workers and emigration. Is everyone in the country out of step except the Minister for Local Government because everybody else seems to know—and surely he should—what is going on? I shall leave the remainder of my time to Deputy Clinton.

Mr. Clinton

I am not anxious to try to embarrass the Minister. Everybody recognises by now that is impossible. Deputy L'Estrange has said sufficient to indicate what has led up to the present position. He has said that for the first seven years of the past nine, practically no houses were built. The minimum was done. Then when we began to try to catch up on that record, immediately the county councils got to work and had a programme in front of them, there is no money to meet their needs. I know the situation very clearly in my constituency of County Dublin and I am glad of this opportunity to clear the air in regard to it.

About two years ago, the Minister became very critical of county councils. As a member of a county councils, I myself was critical and I have never ceased to press for more and more houses. We got very poor results until it was evident from the Department that the Minister seemed to want house building. As soon as that happened, the county councils got to work. They will not get to work unless this pressure is behind them from the Minister. Sites were bought and plans prepared and there was a worthwhile house building programme in sight. The Minister had been criticising the county councils at first because they were not in a position to build houses and now that they are in a position to build, he is criticising them on another score. That is where I join issue with him.

He said he asked for information on housing needs as far back as last February and he spoke of County Dublin as one of the places from which he got wrong information and said that county councils had subsequently asked to be allowed to correct this information and give further information and that he is now considering the position in relation to the latest set of figures he has got. I want to make clear that there was no official communication addressed by the Minister to county councils. Some member of the staff in his Department rang up the county councils. They were asked two questions. The first question asked was: what was their estimated expenditure on schemes for which loans had been approved by the Department up to the end of the financial year ending 31st March, 1966? The second question was: what was their estimated expenditure on schemes for which the Department had sanctioned loans in the year 1966-67?

"For which they had sanctioned loans." There was no question of schemes they had sanctioned, no question of schemes for which plans were in the Department. I know that in County Dublin, for local authority work alone, we made application as far back as September, 1965, for approximately £1 million for local authority house building. When we were asked this question about the amount of money we estimated we would spend on schemes for which loans had been approved up to 31st March, I think we gave a figure of approximately £73,000. Very bad weather intervened. It held up the Minister's own scheme. It was not possible to spend that £73,000 and that was brought forward into the estimate for the coming year of schemes for which loans had been approved and the figure then given was £320,000. All the time, that figure was confined to schemes for which loans had been approved, not those for which plans had been approved or those for which plans were with the Department or those for which plans were being finalised in the county council itself.

That deals with local authority housing, except to say that the amount of money we got will not be sufficient to finish all the schemes already under way and allow us to start the scheme at Swords and the scheme of 18 temporary dwellings at Stillorgan and all the other schemes, involving at least 200 houses. These would be starting now but must wait for want of finance.

In relation to loans for private building, the amount of money we got is sufficient only to meet loans provisionally approved up to 31st December. Last April we had applications totalling £347,000 for loans from people for whom we can do nothing and for whom there is no hope as far as we can see in the present year. Since that date in March applications have still been coming in. I suppose that we now would need at least £1 million to meet the loan applications. These have arisen in the main because the building societies have ceased to provide finance for private building purposes to any great extent. The insurance companies have also ceased to do so. Applications also have come in because the income limit for eligibility was raised by Ministerial order approximately one year ago. There was a great flourish of trumpets at that time about all the new people who would be brought in.

I mentioned recently in the House that I had met the Master Builders Association who claimed that they are at 49 per cent of normal output in building in County Dublin, the reason being that there is no finance available for the purchase of houses in County Dublin. The Minister might as well clear the air and tell these people where they stand for at least one year ahead. He should tell the people who have applications with the county council that they will get no money. These people do not know where to turn. Half the local government's loan has gone into deposits and they have put half of their furniture into those houses that are already built. The money we got is only sufficient to meet our arrears of last year.

Mr. L'Estrange

I wish to draw your attention to the fact that we have not a quorum.

An Ceann Comhairle

The adjournment has been moved and there is no need for a quorum.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Blaney)

The first thing I should like to say is that, against all these sort of charges that are being made, there is the clear evidence of the figures available that go to disprove the exaggerated claims as to despondency in the building industry as far as house building is concerned. At the same time, while making that sort of reply and quoting the figures that can amply demonstrate that, in fact, the charges made are unfounded in their exaggerated form, I do not want to create the belief that I am happy with the situation. I am not. I have not got enough money this year to do the work we could do. I have not got enough money to sanction all of the schemes which are ready to move as a result of the co-operation of the local authorities, at my exhortation, not in the past two years, but over the past eight years, since I became Minister for Local Government. It is rather an unhappy coincidence that we should have reached the point this year that we were really getting action, after many years of trying, so that because of the number of schemes ready to go and, at that same time, the growth in private building being such, that the total amount of money, though greater than ever before, is not sufficient to meet all of the schemes that are ready to move.

In regard to the figures, it is true that this year we have a greater amount of money, at over £21 million, for housing purposes of various descriptions than we have ever had before and if we go back over the last six years, we find the figure then was approximately £9 million and nobody was being held up at that time or in the interim for want of money, rather were they being exhorted by me and others to get on with the job waiting to be done. To show that this was not just an empty formula, the House will recall that as early as 1960, and since 1960, in order to put on record what the job to be done was, to bring some rational approach into our building as a whole on the house building side, I have on all occasions that have been open to me endeavoured to press on all and sundry in local authorities that they had to make proper surveys in order to know what the problem was and, as a result of these, to draw up programmes that would take care of their backlog and their expected demands in the future.

This, surely, as many years ago as six, cannot now be regarded as empty effort on my part or the suggestion cannot be made that I only awakened to the fact that we needed houses two years ago. In fact, one of the first bits of legislation that I brought into this House, only months after I became Minister for Local Government, was in 1958 and, again from the point of view of getting on with the development of housing and everything associated with it, such as water and sewerage, we announced the water scheme in the following year, 1959 and in 1960, I think, we brought in a new Local Government Bill which facilitated the borrowing of money in an overall sort of deal where we did not have to have recourse as heretofore to the various enactments under the various heads of legislation, in other words, an omnibus loan procedure to facilitate local authorities to draw the moneys and to borrow the moneys for all of the jobs they would have to do.

These things were done at a very early stage in my time in Local Government. We have, not only suggestions, but absolute pronouncements here today, that private house building has gone by the board, and so forth. The fact is, of course, we have built more houses on the private side in the year gone past, despite all our difficulties, than were ever built in any year by any Government since the State was founded.

Mr. L'Estrange

I am talking about the present year.

Mr. P. Belton

The present year is gone.

Mr. Blaney

Nobody can take away from that fact. It is a fact and was a fact the year before that we were on record figures in regard to this aspect of house building and it is a fact that, despite all the talk this year, the money is at least equal to giving us an outturn as great this present year as we had last year and that the total amount of money out of the moneys for building and construction in my Department devoted to local authority housing alone is £11 million, which is greater than the amount actually required last year.

Mr. Clinton

But it is for last year's operations.

Mr. L'Estrange

Last year's are not paid for yet.

Mr. Blaney

Mr. Blaney

In that event, it will mean that I will not need money. The money allocated at the moment is £0.8 million and £2.4 million was paid out in the the first four months of the present year and local authorities have been asked for estimates of their draws in order that we may balance out the money for them week by week, month by month, related to their actual requirements at the time rather than overrunning it by giving too much somewhere and not enough somewhere else.

The other point about it is that all the instalments from the Local Loans Fund requested by local authorities to the Board of Works or the Department of Finance have been cleared up to date, 26th April. All instalment applications for moneys on foot of approved loans to the Department of Finance have been cleared up to as recently as the 26th of last month, which, in normal circumstances, is a more than satisfactory position and is a clear indication that the money is flowing out, despite what the Deputies are saying, and that there is not this absolute close down that they are trying to make us believe is taking place. Any misunderstandings in regard to figures being produced by councils on which we have based our allocations, and which have been brought to our notice, are being considered and we will try to rectify them.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 18 May 1966

Adjournment Debate: Housing Loans and Grants.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 May 1966