Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Jun 1966

Vol. 223 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Electricity (Special Provisions) Bill, 1966: Money Resolution.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Dr. Hillery)

I move:

That it is expedient to authorise such payments out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas as are necessary to give effect to any Act of the present session to make provision, during certain special periods, for the rates of remuneration and conditions of employment of persons employed by the Electricity Supply Board, to prohibit certain strikes against that Board which may occur during such periods, to prohibit picketing in connection with those strikes and to provide for certain related matters.

Mr. Dillon

On the Money Resolution, I wish to make three basic observations of importance. The first is, and it is one that the country and the Members of this House should carefully note, that as we authorise the expenditure of public money for the purposes of this Bill, we have demonstrated successfully something that is very precious to this country, that is, that a democratic Parliament faced with a situation of great complexity, great delicacy, in respect of which deep feelings are held, has been able to handle that situation more effectively than any other form of government that exists. Let there be an end for all time hereafter to the talk about the talking shop whose proceedings produce futility. Only a freely-elected parliament could handle the situation we have handled in the course of the past 24 hours.

The second point I want to make is this, and I still do not despair of carrying conviction to my colleagues in the Labour Party: we have abridged, or will, if this Bill passes, the right to strike. I hold, in any case, that in a democracy there is now a fourth estate, that is, free trade unionism of our people. I cherish the right of organised labour to strike as sincerely as I cherish the right of habeas corpus but I believe we are entitled temporarily to suspend either if the safety of the State and the community requires it. It is wrong to say, and it is a mistake for Labour Deputies to say, that an Irish Parliament has embarked upon a course designed to deprive the workers of this country of their fundamental riaht to strike. If that were true, this would not be a democratic Parliament and it is just as much in the interests of the Labour Party to carry conviction to the minds of our people as a whole that this is the citadel of their rights, this Chamber is the place where the fundamental rights of the humblest citizen in the State will be defended as it is in the interests of all to recognise it.

I do not believe the Labour Party themselves believe that this Parliament is putting in the thin end of the wedge to deprive the workingmen of this country of their fundamental right to strike. If I believed it, I would never have voted for this Bill.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

May I point out to Deputy Dillon that this is a Second Reading speech and that Second Reading speeches are not allowed on a Money Resolution?

Mr. Dillon

I have said all I want to say on that subject but here is something that is very relevant to the Money Resolution, something I say with profound reluctance but which I believe I have a duty to say. Expense is involved and that involvement is due to either of two things: Either the Minister for Transport and Power warned the Government of the dangers that lay ahead and urged the Government to take action during the past five years or he did not do so. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has told us that after the Report on Industrial Relations was handed to the Government, they awaited representations from trade unions. They got some and did not get others. I can conceive that in that period the Minister for Transport and Power came frequently to the Government and said: "This is a desperately dangerous situation and you have a duty to resolve it while there is still time without waiting for a crisis to overtake us." On the other hand, he may have remained passive and not pressed that course upon the Government. If he did, and the Government failed to act, they ought to resign. If he did not, and this crisis has come upon us as a result of failure on his part, then he ought to resign. I put it to the House that it is a matter of vital importance that people in ministerial positions should faithfully answer to the House for the responsibilities they have voluntarily undertaken. The House is entitled to know where the fault in this matter rests. Is it the Minister who has failed or the Government?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That has nothing to do with the Money Resolution.

Mr. Dillon

Whoever it is, he should resign.

Mr. Corish

There is one short comment. I have made my Second Reading speech. I think all of us recognise the importance of this legislation and an attempt has been made here by Deputy Dillon to re-emphasise the importance of and the necessity for this legislation. One would imagine in this debate listening both to the Minister and to Deputy Dillon, that we were discussing workers who had something like £30, £40 or £50 per week.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Money Resolution.

Mr. Corish

I just want to make one short point.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would like to point out to the Leader of the Labour Party that what is under discussion at the moment is expenditure proposed to be authorised by the Bill. Second Reading speeches or references to what was said in Second Reading speeches are not relevant.

Mr. James Tully

On a point of order, would the Chair explain then why somebody in favour of the legislation was allowed to speak for ten minutes on something that had nothing to do with the Money Resolution, while the Leader of the Labour Party is not allowed to say three consecutive sentences before being interrupted?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Leader of the Labour Party is out of order——

Mr. James Tully

So was the person who spoke before him and it was not commented upon or noticed.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

—and the Chair has to point out to him that he is out of order.

Mr. Casey

The Leader of the Labour Party is entitled to make his case.

Mr. Corish

I shall be very brief. It is an extraordinary thing that such legislation must be implemented, according to the Minister and Deputy Dillon, in order to restrain workers who are in receipt of £13 10s. a week. Emphasis in this discussion, and this is particularly so in the case of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, is on the responsibility of these 100 fitters towards the rest of the community and there has not been one word said as to the responsibility of the Electricity Supply Board to the community from the point of view of giving these men decent wages.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is entirely out of order. We are discussing the Money Resolution.

Mr. Mullen

In discussing this Money Resolution, we must naturally have to have regard to the cost. As I understand it, the cost is the cost of operating this measure. Surely we are entitled, having regard to its implications, to take notice of the fact that there are 100 fitters immediately involved.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That has nothing to do with the Money Resolution.

Mr. Mullen

We have got to take notice of the Minister for Transport and Power, and the entire Board of the ESB, and have regard to their way of operating.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

These points were debated relevantly on the Second Reading. They are quite out of order on the Money Resolution and the Deputy will not be allowed to continue on those lines.

Mr. Mullen

Would the Chair kindly tell us what, in fact, we can talk about?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not the function of the Chair——

Mr. Mullen

We keep on talking about democracy——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has asked a question. Would he listen to the answer? It is not the function of the Chair to point out to Deputies what they can say.

Mr. Mullen

Then I may proceed.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Relevantly, yes.

Mr. Mullen

But you stopped me.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Because the Deputy was out of order.

Mr. Mullen

Fair enough; I hope to be in order now.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I hope so, too.

Mr. Mullen

When we talk about expenditure under this Money Resolution, we must look at where that expenditure comes from. I want to know why this is levelled at 100 people. Is it not important to embrace every other section that works within the confines of the ESB, or every section, outside the confines of the ESB, which stands by looking on, waiting until something happens? If anybody is going to say this cannot be done, or that cannot be done, I am sure I am entitled to ask the Minister who purports to be responsible for this Bill to explain himself.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is making the speech he could relevantly make on the Second Reading. It is not relevant on the Money Resolution.

Mr. Mullen

With all due respect to you, I did not get a chance of speaking on the Second Reading.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Even so, the Deputy may not speak on those lines on the Money Resolution. I suggest to the Deputy that he resume his seat.

Mr. Mullen

I do not want to be put out of this House because this is very important, and I think I should be allowed to stay in it.

Mr. MacEntee

Chair, Chair.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is refusing to obey the instructions of the Chair. The Deputy must resume his seat.

Mr. Mullen

John Francis MacEntee, come forward, sir.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Mullen might resume his seat.

Mr. Mullen

I will resume my seat, but not in deference to you.

Mr. James Tully

Might I make a comment? I shall ensure I am relevant. This Money Resolution reads:

That it is expedient to authorise such payments out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas as are necessary to give effect to any Act of the present session to make provision, during certain special periods, for the rates of remuneration and conditions of employment of persons employed by the Electricity Supply Board, to prohibit certain strikes against that Board which may occur during such periods, to prohibit picketing in connection with those strikes and to provide for certain related matters.

Now, Sir, would the Minister for Industry and Commerce care to explain what expenditure he expects will arise as a result of the legislation piloted through this House yesterday and today? Will the Minister try to explain to the House whether or not we will have a repetition of what happened in 1961 when this House agreed that a Commission would be set up to investigate certain things; and, when that investigation was carried out, and when the Commission made a report to the Minister for Transport and Power, no action was taken, good, bad, or indifferent; and, because of that fact, because that recommendation was not acted upon, we now have this strike?

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear.

Mr. James Tully

And because of the fact that the Government were not prepared to do anything——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is getting away from the Money Resolution.

Mr. James Tully

I am not getting away from the point.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am pointing out to the Deputy that the action, or inaction, of the Minister does not arise on the Money Resolution. We are discussing the money provided.

Mr. James Tully

I shall come to that and I would thank the Chair to allow me to make my point.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair will allow any Deputy to make his point if he is relevant.

Mr. James Tully

But the Chair cannot know whether I am relevant or not until I get to the end of my point. My point is that there is absolutely no. use whatever in passing legislation if we are going to have a situation in which all we will do, when a strike occurs, is ask the House to provide money to beat the strikers back to work. That is what we are being asked to do. We have the Minister for Industry and Commerce, with the Minister for Transport and Power sitting at his elbow, waiting for someone else to do the work for him. He sits to one side, silently, while the Minister for Industry and Commerce asks this House to provide money to bludgeon these people into breaking the fight for better working conditions and better wages. There is no point in anyone, Minister, Government, or anyone else, attempting to get away with what is being tried on here today. We were told this is not anti-trade union legislation. What more anti-trade union legislation can you have than a request to provide money to bludgeon——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not relevant to the Money Resolution. These are points for Committee Stage.

Mr. James Tully

The Deputy may raise them at this stage and he will raise them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will not raise them on this stage and, if he continues, I will have to ask him to resume his seat.

Mr. James Tully

I want to make a point.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has already made his points and most of them were irrelevant.

Mr. James Tully

I will not allow the Chair to behave in the manner in which it is behaving here today. This is scandalous. The Chair has ruled everyone who attempted to make a point out of order without waiting to hear the point.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

These are Standing Orders adopted by the House and the Chair is carrying out the wishes of the House. I will not argue with Deputy Tully. He will resume his seat.

Mr. James Tully

On a point of order, will the Chair tell me whether or not I am in order in asking the Minister for Industry and Commerce if he proposes to raise money under this Money Resolution for the purpose of bludgeoning workers back to work? Is that what the Money Resolution is for?

(Interruptions.)

Mr. James Tully

Deputy MacEntee has not been seen in this House for months. Let him stay where he is now. It will be quite a pleasant thing to do. Will the Chair rule whether or not I am entitled to ask if this money is being provided? Are we to understand that if we supply this money, we are entitling the Minister and the Government to use measures far outside this Bill, and finance them, to force people to work against their will or does the Minister suggest that fines and imprisonment are the way to settle strikes?

Mr. O'Leary

Is there any idea of the number of staff necessary to finance this mysterious project? Can the Minister tell us what the order of that money will be and whether the fines for failure to comply with the terms of this Act will go towards the financing of this Department? There is provision for pretty hefty fines. Does the Minister see the trade union movement financing the activities of this anti-strike Department? How many will be employed? Does the Minister foresee personnel of the Labour Court involved in this special Department? We should like some information, if the Minister has it available. He has asked for money. We want to know what it is for and to whom it will go. What is the scheme for this Department?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister, to conclude.

Mr. Mullen

We are asking for information.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is totally irregular.

Mr. O'Leary

We are looking for information. If ex-members of the Irish Socialist Republican Party keep interrupting, we shall get no information. Can the Minister give us some information about this Department and this additional staff the intends to employ? Can he give us any idea of their terms of reference, how many will be involved and their function? This is the least information we could ask for under this Money Resolution.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If no other Deputies offer to speak, I am calling on the Minister to conclude on the Money Resolution.

Dr. Hillery

My answer to the question is that no extra staff will be required. I think all Deputies know that a Bill of this kind going through the Oireachtas has a Money Resolution with it. The Money Resolution is necessary for any extra administrative expenses. This Bill is no different from any other Bill of that nature. This is a very complex and delicate situation.

Mr. O'Leary

It is extremely delicate.

Dr. Hillery

Deputies should approach it on the basis that the trade union movement will obey the law.

Mr. J.J. Collins

Hear, hear:

Mr. O'Leary

Hear, hear: you abolished the law.

Mr. J.J. Collins

I never raised the red flag, like you.

Mr. Coughlan

You raised white ones.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will Deputies please allow the Minister to conclude?

Mr. Mullen

It is a comical situation to see the Minister who is responsible for the ESB sitting there and saying nothing.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputies will please allow the Minister to conclude.

Mr. Coughlan

Which Minister?

Dr. Hillery

I do not think we should aproach it any other way but from the point of view that the trade unions will respect the law. In answer to the question raised many times about the recommendation in the 1961 Commission Report to amalgamate the two tribunals of the ESB, there is no foundation for believing that the present situation is due to the non-implementation of that recommendation. Already, on the Second Stage, I explained——

Mr. Corish

The Minister will be out of order if he does it.

Dr. Hillery

It was raised by one of the Deputy's Party already. I should like to let the Deputy know that the reason it was not implemented was that we could not get co-operation with the unions involved. If the Deputy reads the speech I made on Second Reading, so that I shall not be out of order now, he will find that it was our desire to have co-operation and agreement in these matters.

Mr. Mullen

Could we regard the Minister for Industry and Commerce as saying that the Minister for Transport and Power neglected to attend to this job and, on a Sunday evening, when he had come back from his holidays in Chicago, decided to make a phone call——

Dr. Hillery

If there is any responsibility, it is mine because I insisted on continued consultation. I have been pressurised all this year because of delays in the production of amendments to the trade union law and industrial relations——

Mr. James Tully

By the Federated Union of Employers.

Dr. Hillery

No, both sides.

Mr. James Tully

Certainly not from the trade union movement. The Minister cannot say that. There was no pressurising of the Minister.

Dr. Hillery

The pressure has come from public opinion from many sources.

Mr. James Tully

Not from the trade union side.

Dr. Hillery

I put up with that so as to have the opportunity to consult with the trade unions. I believe that harmonious industrial relations can be achieved only through goodwill. I believe we should seek out agreement as far as possible. It is certainly not the responsibility of the Minister for Transport and Power.

Mr. Mullen

The Minister for Transport and Power did nothing but pontificate.

Mr. O'Leary

The Minister's sentiments are very touching.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister, to conclude.

Mr. O'Leary

We were allowed to put a series of questions to the Minister. I understood that the Minister was replying to these questions. Instead, we have had another variation on the theme of harmonious relations. It is becoming like a funeral service.

Dr. Hillery

There will be no extra staff. The Deputy was talking to his neighbour when I said that before.

Mr. Coughlan

What about the extensions to Mountjoy? Who will pay for these?

Mr. O'Leary

What money will be required?

Dr. Hillery

This is normal procedure.

Mr. Mullen

How can we have a Department responsible for eventually financing this Bill? Is it part of the Department of Industry and Commerce or part of the Department of Transport and Power or part of the Department of Justice?

Mr. O'Leary

Or a subsidy for the Federated Union of Employers?

Mr. Mullen

I want an answer to that question.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy please sit down? I understood that the Leas-Cheann Comhairle called upon the Minister to conclude and that, of course, means that the Minister has spoken and has concluded.

Mr. James Tully

And he has no conclusion except a big statement.

An Ceann Comhairle

That may be.

Mr. Mullen

We understood we were getting information.

Question put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 110; Níl, 19.

Tá

• Aiken, Frank.
• Allen, Lorcan.
• Andrews, David.
• Barrett, Stephen D.
• Barry, Richard.
• Belton, Paddy.
• Blaney, Neil T.
• Boland, Kevin.
• Booth, Lionel.
• Boylan, Terence.
• Brady, Philip.
• Brennan, Joseph.
• Brennan, Paudge.
• Breslin, Cormac.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Burke, Joan T.
• Calleary, Phelim A.
• Carter, Frank.
• Carty, Michael.
• Childers, Erskine.
• Clinton, Mark A.
• Clohessy, Patrick.
• Colley, George.
• Collins, James J.
• Connor, Patrick.
• Coogan, Fintan.
• Corry, Martin J.
• Cosgrave, Liam.
• Costello, Declan.
• Costello, John A.
• Creed, Donal.
• Crinion, Brendan.
• Cronin, Jerry.
• Crotty, Patrick J.
• Crowley, Flor.
• Crowley, Honor M.
• Cunningham, Liam.
• Davern, Don.
• de Valera, Vivion.
• Dillon, James M.
• Dockrell, Maurice E.
• Donegan, Patrick S.
• Dowling, Joe.
• Dunne, Thomas.
• Egan, Nicholas.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Mooney, Patrick.
• Moore, Seán.
• Moran, Michael.
• Murphy, William.
• Nolan, Thomas.
• Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
• Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
• O'Connor, Timothy.
• O'Donnell, Tom.
• O'Hara, Thomas.
• Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
• Fahey, John
• Fanning, John.
• Farrelly, Denis.
• Faulkner, Pádraig.
• Fitzpatrick, Thomas J. (Cavan).
• Fitzpatrick, Thomas J. (Dublin South-Central).
• Flanagan, Oliver J.
• Foley, Desmond.
• Gallagher, James.
• Geoghegan, John.
• Gibbons, Hugh.
• Gibbons, James M.
• Gilbride, Eugene.
• Gilhawley, Eugene.
• Gogan, Richard P
• Governey, Desmond.
• Harte, Patrick D.
• Haughey, Charles.
• Healy, Augustine A.
• Hillery, Patrick J.
• Hilliard, Michael.
• Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary).
• Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
• Jones, Denis F.
• Kenneally, William.
• Kennedy, James J.
• Kenny, Henry.
• Kitt, Michael F.
• Lalor, Patrick J.
• Lemass, Noel T.
• Lemass, Seán.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Lenihan, Patrick.
• L'Estrange, Gerald.
• Lindsay, Patrick J.
• Lynch, Celia.
• Lynch, Jack.
• Lyons, Michael D.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• McLaughlin, Joseph.
• Meaney, Tom.
• Millar, Anthony G.
• O'Higgins, Michael J
• O'Higgins, Thomas F. K.
• O'Malley, Donogh.
• Reynolds, Patrick J.
• Ryan, Richie.
• Sheridan, Joseph.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Sweetman, Gerard.
• Tully, John.
• Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

• Casey, Seán.
• Cluskey, Frank.
• Corish, Brendan.
• Coughlan, Stephen.
• Desmond, Eileen.
• Dunne, Seán.
• Everett, James.
• Kyne, Thomas A.
• Larkin, Denis.
• McAuliffe, Patrick.
• Mullen, Michael.
• Murphy, Michael P.
• Norton, Patrick.
• O'Leary, Michael.
• Pattison, Séamus.
• Spring, Dan.
• Tierney, Patrick.
• Treacy Seán.
• Tully, James.

Tellers: Tá: Deputies Carty and Geoghegan; Níl: Deputies James Tully and Treacy.

Question declared carried.

Resolution reported and agreed to.