Vol. 223 No. 11
I move:
That it is expedient to authorise such payments out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas as are necessary to give effect to any Act of the present session to provide for the establishment of a Department of Labour, and for that purpose to amend the Ministers and Secretaries Acts, 1924 to 1959.
Has the Minister any idea what this will cost?
Not immediately. The Department will be built up gradually. It will be a new Department and a certain amount of administrative expenditure will be involved.
In accordance with Parkinson's Law.
I hope not. This Department will have to obey the ordinary rules governing all Departments.
Could the Minister say how many officials he will be taking on?
An Order will be made under the Bill when it becomes law setting up the Department and that Order will specify certain functions which are now part of the Department of Industry and Commerce and which will become functions of the new Department. The number of functions designated will determine the staff required. Additional staff will be required in the area of industrial relations.
I would suggest to the Minister that, in relation to industrial relations, he could do worse than take some of the present conciliation staff in the Labour Court.
It will be a matter for the Taoiseach. I imagine the conciliation staff will become part of the new Department. I hope the Taoiseach will not deny that.
Is it proposed to transfer any staff from Social Welfare?
The block of work which will be done by the new Department in relation to placement will involve the taking of staff now engaged in dealing with unemployment assistance and unemployment benefit. This work will be done for the Minister for Social Welfare on an agency basis but the staff will become the staff of the Department of Labour.
Would the Minister explain what he means by an agency basis? Will the employment exchange in Newbridge, for instance, correspond with the Minister for Labour in respect of the purely social welfare part of this work?
With the Minister for Labour. The two functions would not be separable now without unnecessary expenditure—that is, the function of placement and the function in relation to unemployment assistance and unemployment benefit. That could be handled as a unit by the Minister for Social Welfare doing the placement function on an agency basis for the Minister for Labour or the Minister for Labour taking over the functions and doing the unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance on an agency basis for the Minister for Social Welfare.
Will the placement function be the responsibility of the Minister for Social Welfare?
No, of the Minister for Labour. He will have double responsibility but the functions will be carried out by the Department of Labour on an agency basis for the Department of Social Welfare.
Does the Minister foresee any positions being filled from outside the Civil Service by people experienced in industrial relations?
I said the Department will develop with time. It is important, I think, that such a Department be free to employ people who would be regarded as experts or specialists.
Could the Minister explain what he means in relation to the agency basis? I take it the Minister for Labour will pay the social welfare benefits and assistance required to be paid through the local exchanges. Will that money be given in block? Will it appear on the Estimate for the Minister for Labour or on the Estimate for the Minister for Social Welfare?
The people who run the exchanges will become employees of the Minister for Labour but will distribute this money for the Minister for Social Welfare.
Take Newbridge employment exchange as an example. If the manager there has to refer to his superior in relation to some problem about unemployment assistance or unemployment benefit, he will, I gather from the Minister, refer to the Minister for Labour. He will send the query to the Department of Labour. Will that query then be dealt with by the Department of Labour or will it be passed on to the Department of Social Welfare to be dealt with there? If it is dealt with in Social Welfare, will it come back again then to the Department of Labour or will there be some method of direct access?
In the event of a decision being required in relation to any functions being discharged on an agency basis, the manager will seek that decision from the Department of Social Welfare but he will be an employee of the Department of Labour.
It will not be a three-cornered arrangement. It will be a direct cut across?
Yes.
