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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Oct 1966

Vol. 224 No. 6

Vote 27—Local Government (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £8,581,450 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1967, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government, including Grants to Local Authorities, Grants and other expenses in connection with Housing, and Miscellaneous Grants including certain Grants-in-Aid.
—(Minister for Local Government.)

When I reported progress before Question Time, I was dealing with one aspect that would contribute towards a solution of our housing problem. I was referring to newly-married couples who are married today and who create the housing problem of tomorrow. If we could make schemes available by way of grants and long-term loans to newly-married couples in the category for which the county council accept responsibility to rehouse. I believe it would prove an incentive to many couples to build their own houses, thereby removing from the waiting list a problem that was destined for the local authority if this young couple decided to make their home in Ireland.

Local authorities, and this is particularly true of Donegal County Council, have failed to provide houses for the people. The only alternative for the people is to apply for an SDA loan or to some building society or insurance company for money wherewith to build houses for themselves. These people take on a responsibility which should be the responsibility of the local authority. So frustrated have people become, that they have, to put it bluntly, got fed up waiting to be re-housed by their local authorities. It is a good thing that they shoulder this responsibility if the Government can provide money over a long-term period by way of loan to enable these people to house themselves. Over the past 12 months. I addressed several questions to the Minister in regard to the delay in the payment of supplementary grants and the honouring of certain loans promised by the county manager. On foot of the promise made by the county manager, people have entered into certain commitments, purchased sites, drawn up contracts, and so on, only to be told that the money was not forthcoming under the SDA: the well had run dry.

All sorts of excuses were made, excuses which were accepted by the less well informed, who are always prepared to accept any explanation which appears to them to be reasonable. I know it is the responsibility of the Government to advance funds to meet withdrawals. These particular schemes are only operated by local authorities; they should be financed by the Government. I know many people—I am sure the Minister does, too—in Donegal, who have committed themselves and their families in the past 12 months to many years of debt and heavy responsibilities, responsibilities which should rightly rest on the local authority. These people have been let down.

At no stage did the county manager give the exact position. He kept quiet about it. But the position in Donegal was that the local authority had pledged £52,000 to applicants who wished to build their own houses. There was a waiting list representing another £50,000 or £60,000. The Government advanced £60,000. In other words, £52,000 was pledged to people who had applied and who were approved for long-term loans. The Government may not be entirely responsible for the present economic situation of the country, but it is very difficult now to understand or to explain the slogans of 18 months ago: everything in the garden is lovely; this is not the time for a change; let Lemass lead on; do not put back the clock; do not change horses in midstream. That was the advice given by Fianna Fáil to the electorate.

No sooner are Fianna Fáil returned to power than the Taoiseach admits there is a credit squeeze. Up to this very moment the Minister for Local Government has not been man enough to admit that the reason we are not building houses in Dublin, Limerick, Cork, Waterford and everywhere else in the country, including North-East Donegal, is that the Government are bust. The money that should have been provided for houses has been squandered by the Government in an effort to change a predominantly agricultural economy into an industrial economy.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present.

I should like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that there is only one Fine Gael Deputy and no Labour Deputy present.

I am not interested.

The public will be.

I should like to inform the public, lest they might be misinformed, that it is the responsibility of the Government to provide a house. There was one single representative when I was speaking—the Minister for Local Government.

This is not the responsibility of the Government.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Harte, on the Estimate.

Before I called the attention of the House to the fact that only the Minister for Local Government was in the House, I was dealing with the appalling housing situation in County Donegal. I was pointing out to the Minister, because he was the only person in the House to whom I could point it out——

The rest of us were around the House working on behalf of our constituents.

I cannot allow Deputy Andrews to interrupt in this fashion. Deputy Harte, on the Estimate.

As I was saying, I was pointing out—and if Deputy Andrews had been here, he would probably have heard it——

I did not particularly want to hear it.

Well, the Deputy might remain silent.

Will Deputy Harte proceed on the Estimate?

I was pointing out that the reason for the bad housing situation in Donegal was that no money had been provided by the Government. I might point out that if the house falls below a quorum, I will ask for a count.

Will the Deputy wait until that contingency arises?

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present.

The Minister may have received——

I am glad that Deputy Harte is enjoying his game.

Order. Will Deputy Andrews allow Deputy Harte to proceed?

(Cavan): The Deputies opposite are in a particularly bad humour.

The only thing I want you to do is to provide a house. If you cannot provide houses for our people surely you can provide a house in Parliament?

Will the Deputy please proceed with the discussion on the Estimate and nothing more?

(Interruptions.)

You are being paid £1,500 a year——

And you are also being paid £1,500 a year.

And I am earning it.

The Deputy will proceed.

I was saying that the Minister for Local Government in all probability has received the same representations from the same people as I have, protesting against the delay in having the supplementary grant paid and the delay in regard to the first and second instalments of the SDA loan. Bad as it may appear in the public health district of the county, where it is the county council's responsibility to re-house, in the town of Letterkenny, which has a growing population, the Minister sees fit to allocate £1,000 for the local authority to spend on re-housing in 1966-67. I know of a colleague of the Minister's who has given about six times that amount for two sites.

The Minister provides £1,000 for the re-housing of people and yet there is a waiting list as long as the Minister's arm. He has received protests from the people of Letterkenny, as I have, but why, even at this late stage, does the Minister not say: "I cannot increase it, although God knows, I would like to do so, because we have not got money"? Why has he not admitted it? I admire the spirit of the backbenchers in Fianna Fáil, when they deem it necessary to come into the House, in support of the Minister and to congratulate him on the magnificent stand he has made during this crisis. They say that the Minister has shouldered the responsibility, and this is also said by political commentators in the public press, but yet the Minister says there is no crisis. If somebody would explain the two points to me, I would allow the Deputies to go to their rest rooms and while away the day.

Take the town of Buncrana, which is a seaside resort where the population increases to 10,000, 12,000 or more people in holiday time—I do not think anybody could accurately calculate the population there at a peak holiday period. The Minister thinks it fit that Buncrana urban allocation should be £2,000. They are better off than Letterkenny who got £1,000. This is the situation in Donegal and this is the situation less than 18 months after we read on the walls, heard on the radio and saw on television: "Let Lemass lead on; this is no time for a change." I do not know how any Fianna Fáil Deputy can live with his conscience. In fact, I admire the Fianna Fáil Deputy who comes into the House and remains silent. At least he might be honouring his conscience and not exposing its weakness in an effort to try to protect the Minister for Local Government.

You are going on to the soiled ones now.

I cannot understand the Deputy.

(Cavan): Is the Deputy going to speak?

I have already spoken.

I will call a quorum whenever the Deputy wants to speak.

The Deputy does not have to.

The Minister allocated £36,000 to Donegal County Council to provide houses for the entire county, a county admittedly reduced substantially in population but a county that on the findings of the late county medical officer, Dr. Maurice McPartland, who was county medical officer of Donegal, and who carried out a survey in Buncrana rural area three or four years ago, showed the kind of progress we were making. It was estimated at the time that it would take 250 years to solve the housing problem in Donegal. That was before the Fianna Fáil backbenchers admitted there was a credit squeeze. That was during the good days of Fianna Fáil. It was during the time they patted the Taoiseach on the back and told him: "You are the man who is the great saviour." We heard the same thing said when his predecessor was in power.

Those are the facts. I have not got the exact reference to the 250 years but it is embodied in the minutes of a council meeting of Donegal County Council. If anybody wishes to challenge this the facts can be obtained in the manager's office of Donegal County Council. We were not exactly told that it would take 250 years but any person, using elementary calculations, could arrive at that figure. I referred earlier to the Milford housing promise made prior to the last general election. The Minister was not present in the House when I mentioned this. Now that he is here I should like to repeat that in the town of Milford during the 1965 general election a notice appeared in a local trader's window inviting applicants to apply for 50 houses to be built in Milford. This notice was removed with some haste a few days after the election. Nothing at all has been heard since or even before this notice appeared.

The councillor who is now agitating for houses in the town of Milford is agitating to have the National Building Agency build the houses. Approximately two months ago the county manager informed members of the county council that he understood a tender had been received by the Department of Local Government to build a number of houses in Milford. I should like the Minister, if he and Deputy Cunningham would listen for a moment —there are places other than in this House in which to discuss private matters—to tell us when he is prepared to sanction the tender submitted to his Department to allow the National Building Agency to build those houses in Milford. Would he give some information as to what rents the tenants would be expected to pay? Those are two very important points.

Deputy Dowling mentioned that the inter-Party Government went "bust" out of office in 1957. I was not a member of this House in 1957 nor was I a member of the local authority at that time, but I like to think I was a responsible member of the community trying to earn a living to provide for my wife and family. I was conscious of the national situation then. I admit that the Government went to the country at a very inopportune time. If the inter-Party Government went out of power because they built too many houses and spent too much money on agriculture and on hospitals, then I am not ashamed to admit I was a supporter of that Government. Fianna Fáil Deputies can laugh when I say too much money was spent on hospitals but when Dr. Noel Browne, as Minister for Health in the inter-Party Government, in 1958, advocated the spending of enormous sums of money to eradicate TB from our society he was classed as a Red by you. His name was tarnished.

Deputies

You fired him.

(Interruptions.)

His name was tarnished by the Fianna Fáil members.

(Cavan): They threw him out.

You fired him.

We did not.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

I was saying, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, when Dr. Noel Browne——

The question of sanatoria does not arise on this Estimate. Reference to what Dr. Noel Browne did in those years is not relevant.

It might not be relevant.

If you agree it is not relevant you can get on to the Estimate.

I hold that if money had not been provided then to build sanatoria this country would be in a terrible state now.

Reference to this would widen the debate unduly. The Deputy does not listen to anything. He talks.

I was coming to the point that in 1957 when the inter-Party Government went out of office and since then—the figures I am about to quote are not my figures but figures from the Taoiseach's own office—25 per cent of the programme embarked upon and carried out by the inter-Party Government has been achieved by the present administration. This has been achieved—Deputy Dowling can laugh, I wonder was he laughing when the houses fell down and killed people in the city of Dublin. Whose responsibility was that then?

I can tell the Deputy a lot about that if he wants to know about it.

We shall listen to the Deputy afterwards. Only 25 per cent of the efforts made in 1957 have been achieved when every other country in the world is house conscious. Whenever we go to Great Britain we see new towns being planned and developed. We see people who were living in slums and who knew nothing about houses, who knew nothing better than tenements, now having a garden back and front and a bathroom, living in conditions they dreamed of. They thought they were born into a section of society which did not deserve these places.

Has the Deputy got the statistics for housing in Britain?

I am talking generally and Deputy Gallagher is in a better position to talk about housing if he tells the truth.

(Interruptions.)

If the Deputy has nothing to talk about, why did he call us back?

I have constituents waiting for me and they will have to wait until 5 o'clock. I shall tell them why I was delayed.

I hope the Deputy enjoyed the summer recess.

(Cavan): Is it in order for Deputies to complain about Deputy Harte's asking that the rules of order of the House be complied with, that is, that a quorum be present?

There was a quorum present until Deputy T.J. Fitzpatrick counted the people and realised that if he left himself there would not be a quorum, which he did a few moments ago. Deputies opposite are making a mockery of this whole procedure.

The Deputy left.

(Cavan): I completely deny that. It is the business of the Government Party to keep a house.

If the Deputy had anything to say we would be glad to listen to him.

The Deputy——

I am five years in this House and I have yet to hear Deputy Allen make a contribution.

(Cavan): And the Deputy will be 25 years more and he will not hear him.

If the Deputy waits longer he will hear him.

(Interruptions.)

There is one consoling thought. If the Deputies opposite keep quiet they will get rid of me quicker.

Sure, he is great gas.

The reason why this Government have only achieved a 25 per cent effort is that the money was not provided by the Government to the local authorities to provide houses. If it was not provided to the local authorities, with all the increased taxation, the abolishing of the food subsidies, the turnover tax, the PAYE system and all other increases in taxation which have occurred since 1957, where did the money go? Am I not entitled to point out that the dream of an aeroplane factory in the suburbs of this city——

That has nothing to do with the Estimate. The Deputy must confine his remarks to the Estimate. The Minister has no responsibility for the matters mentioned by the Deputy.

(Cavan): I think Deputy Harte has a right to speak about the money.

Will Deputies crease interrupting? Deputy Harte is in possession. Unless Deputy T.J. Fitzpatrick has a point of order, he may not intervene. I do not believe there is a point of order.

(Cavan): I am submitting that Deputy Harte is explaining that the money that was diverted to the aeroplane factory which did not work, should have been put into housing.

Deputy Harte is doing rightly by himself.

Deputy Harte is capable of making his own speech.

Am I not entitled to point out to the House the misuse of public money that should have been spent on housing?

No; this does not arise on the Estimate.

I am pointing out that the Government have not spent enough money on housing. This has been the deliberate policy of the Government and it is the responsibility of the Department of Local Government.

(Interruptions.)

Would Deputies please address the Chair and allow Deputy Harte to make his speech? I have given a direction that Deputy Harte is entitled to refer to the various subheads. None of the matters he has mentioned arises, and it would be out of order to discuss the general policy of Government expenditure on this Estimate.

He should have learned that in five years.

The point I am making is that the Government in their First Programme for Economic Expansion admit that housebuilding is a bad investment and from that point of view, they deliberately spent less money on housing and squandered it on pet industry.

A Deputy

That is untrue.

It is not untrue.

(Interruptions.)

I am led to believe that from Blaney's blarney and Colley's folly we have a lot to listen to in this House.

And Harte's farce.

The Government could also have saved money in regard to the local elections. The local elections have been postponed on two occasions. There was some reasonable excuse for postponing them in 1965 because if they had not been postponed to 1966 in all probability they would have been delayed until late autumn of 1965. There is no reason other than political expendiency why the local elections were postponed in 1966. If the local elections had been held with the Presidential election there would have been a different President in this country today.

We cannot discuss the question of the Presidency.

And £100,000 would have been saved to the Exchequer. That is as clear as I can make it.

It is not very clear.

£1,00,000 would have been saved by holding the county council elections on the same day as the Presidential election.

How does the Deputy make that out?

The Deputy can calculate it if he has not time to make a speech. The local elections bring me to another point. I wonder, with all the talk of new boundaries in Cork city borough and with the facts now known from the recent census of population, what the situation will be in Donegal. At the moment there are two constituencies in County Donegal. There used to be only one, a county at large, with eight members returned to this House. I am told that in 1937 the county was divided in two in order to get rid of a former Independent member now deceased. You can cod the people some of the time, you can use a situation to your advantage some of the time but in the long run honesty will prevail. I can foresee the county in one constituency with five members returned to this House. I know the Party that is going to lose.

That does not arise.

It arises on Local Government.

I would point out that the remarks on this Estimate are related to the various subheads. There is no question of elections arising on the Estimate and the Estimate is not referred back. The Deputy must relate his remarks strictly to the various subheads. If the Deputy wishes to discuss the question of elections, there is an elections Bill coming up, and I feel he should reserve his remarks until then, when they would be relevant.

Votes are more important than houses to the Deputy.

One thing the present Government cannot do when they are re-aligning a boundary for new constituencies in Donegal is to chop and change and do all the gerrymandering that is done when you have a town like Castlefin which is due east and which is classed as South-West Donegal. The next aspect I should like to deal with is road safety.

That should be good for ten minutes.

(Cavan): Deputy Briscoe must have something important on.

Just decent constituents I cannot attend to.

They must be all dead. I should like to see better road signs provided at junctions, particularly in rural Ireland. I know the Minister is well aware of a crossroads in East Donegal where two fatal accidents occured and after which certain very stormy meetings took place in the council chamber in Lifford. Certain steps were taken to remove the danger and there have been no fatal or indeed even minor accidents there since these simple steps were taken. The difference between life and death, to me—relating my remarks to that particular corner— is that two luminous signs were provided on all approach roads and white lines were marked on the road surface. I do not think it is sufficient to erect a small road sign "Danger", a foot square, in this fast motoring age in which we live. Those signs were suitable for an age when traffic did not exceed 30 miles an hour, when most traffic on the road was drawn by horses or ponies; but now, when cars fly past at 60 and 70 miles an hour, there should be more warnings and better road signs.

I would ask the Minister to make the procedure more definite when people apply for provisional licences, do the test and then apply for a licence to drive. It has happened in many cases in Donegal. Indeed, in my constituency and perhaps in every other constituency, they do not have any real regard for a simple signature on any simple piece of paper, which amounts to nothing and you find any person signing the father's, the wife's or the husband's name. It has happened and the Minister should know this. It has happened that people have applied to the taxation office for a provisional licence and have signed the application form. Then, when they are invited to do the test, the application is posted to their home and, to expedite the matter, the mother signs the son's name. When the son takes the driving test, he signs his own name again and it is then discovered that there are two signatures on the application form. I know there is a certain wisdom in this; it is only by the signature that the local authority can truthfully say: "That is the person who applied and that is the person who did the test." But many people find themselves having done everything above board and yet they must do the test over again and pay another £1. This is because applicants for driving licences are not properly informed. The information relating to that particular point is hidden away in very small type on some pamphlet which is supposed to be of an informative type.

The Deputy has my support in that.

Another matter about which I should like to see something done in relation to road safety is the provision on motor cars of safety belts, and not alone motor cars but public vehicles. Now that the railways are closing down and buses are moving through rural Ireland at a fast pace, safety belts should be provided for the passengers. This might be a new idea and it might, at this stage, appear to be needless, because we have had no serious accidents involving buses such as we hear of on the Continent. But we do not have to have a serious accident, taking the lives of fathers and mothers, sons and daughters, before we arrive at a situation when we say to ourselves: "We should have had safety belts in buses travelling long distances". This is being done at the moment in some States in the United States and I do not see any reason why we should not do it here.

One of the regulations in taxing a motor vehicle and in insuring that motor vehicle to allow its use on our public highways, should be the setting of a speed limit in relation to the horse power of the vehicle. The roads are being provided, slowly as it may be, and they tempt younger drives particularly to excessive speed, and I am not in a group outside of that. Very often, during the course of a journey from Donegal to this city, I am tempted to put down the shoe and reach for higher speed. This temptation would be taken from me if the speed of the vehicle were governed to a certain ratio of the horse power of the engine. Likewise, it would be a safeguard for the younger people who are inclined to take more risks, apart from driving at an excessive speed.

One thing which I advocated here a number of years ago, and which I would urge again—I am glad to see that in some way it is being aimed at and achieved—is Garda motor cycle patrols along our highways. The only thing I can say by way of constructive criticism is that there are not enough of them. Too often—and I hope Deputy Molloy will back me up on this as well because his constituency is in many ways similar to mine—you hear of rural Garda barracks being closed down, and we claim——

That would be a matter for the Minister for Justice.

The point I am making is that instead of closing these barracks, more gardaí should be provided in rural Ireland.

That would still be a matter for another Minister, not for the Minister for Local Government.

Surely the Minister for Local Government——

Surely this is not relevant to the Estimate?

All Deputy Allen is good for is interrupting. I do not think he has even asked a Parliamentary Question.

Only second place to the Deputy.

Deputy Molloy should join the Committee to deal with the Constitution of the country. He should say "yes" when he is told to say "yes" and "no" when he is told to say "no", and he will be the white-haired boy.

Are these the instructions Deputy Harte is following?

Surely the Minister is responsible for road safety and surely I am allowed——

The Minister is not responsible for Garda barracks throughout the country.

He is responsible for road safety. There must be some communication between the Department of Justice and the Department of Local Government in relation to this service. The Minister should have a word with the Minister for Justice in this regard. It would be a deterrent to a person who might be tempted to take a drink too many, and take either his own or someone else's life, if he knew that somewhere between the publichouse and his home, he might be pulled up by a Garda patrol. It would be a deterrent even if the Garda patrol were ten miles away. This is well worth mentioning. I ask the Minister as a personal favour—he does not normally accede to personal favours I ask of him—in the interests of the constituency which I represent, and which he represents, to have a word with the Minister for Justice to see that this is carried out. Deputy Allen, I hope, will not be the first to be caught in that net.

What is the Deputy trying to insinuate?

I do not think there was any insinuation at all.

In case there was.

I do not think there was any insinuation. I thought the Deputy was making fun of what I am saying.

I am trying to keep order.

I said I hoped the Deputy would not be the first to be caught in the net. That is a very kind thought by an Opposition Deputy for a backbench Government Deputy.

The Deputy is not too long on the Front Bench and it may not be too long until he is on the back bench again.

I will take my place.

The Deputy should be careful. I am not at all superstitious but it is dangerous to say a thing like that. Very often a person who says a thing like that is hoist with his own petard. Keep it clean.

I do not follow Deputy de Valera at all.

It follows on the Deputy's obloquy.

I hope Deputy Harte will keep quiet in future. It did not sound very nice over here.

I will not be guided by Deputy Lemass. I will be the judge of what is nice and will stand on my own feet.

The Deputy should be careful about saying that sort of thing outside the House.

Will Deputies please allow Deputy Harte to make his speech?

There are too many interruptions from across the House.

For so few who are there.

There is only one behind the Deputy. We are keeping a house.

As a matter of fact, you are not. We will wait until 4.55 p.m. for a quorum. The point I wanted to make was that under the regulations relating to restricted areas, it is illegal to use headlights in certain restricted areas. That regulation should be altered and a motorist should be allowed to flick his headlights on, if, for some reason, he suspects there is something in his way, and so long as the authorities who control this are satisfied that he did not switch on his headlights to blind another motorist——

Are headlights relevant to this debate?

Would you tell him, Sir?

Surely that would be relevant to the Estimate for the Department of Justice?

Deputy Harte is in order.

Practically every Deputy who spoke in this debate mentioned that aspect. This could be changed simply by the signature of the Minister. It is done in Northern Ireland, and I think the Minister would be the first to admit that the public highway code in Northern Ireland is much more severe than the code in the Republic. Yet they deem it necessary to allow motorists to use their headlights in restricted areas, if necessary. They are requested to use their parking lights, side lights, or off-dip, when passing through restricted areas.

It is not often I congratulate the Minister but some effort is being made by the Department towards the provision of better street lighting. I should like to see more of this. In small towns in the Six Counties, one can notice the big change fluorescent lighting in the streets makes after dark or after lighting-up time. When you go from Strabane to Lifford, the first thing that strikes you is the bad lighting system in Lifford, while the lighting in Strabane is almost perfect. I should like the Minister to bring this to the notice of the county engineers and county managers. When they are building new housing schemes, providing new lighting systems in order housing schemes, and replacing public lighting in the smaller villages, they should make an effort to provide fluorescent lighting. The poles that carry the light should not be at the edge of the footpath. They should be attached to the wall and they should be decorative, as they are in Dublin. We could easily achieved that.

I want to deal further with road safety and speed limit signs. I suppose this is a process of evolution. It is not so long since we introduced 30 m.p.h. speed limits. Everything could not be perfect at the first go; there had to be trial and error. It is only natural that 30 m.p.h. speed limit signs which were erected on particular sites should be re-sited at a later date when it was discovered that there were more suitable sites. It is only natural that 40 m.p.h. speed limits should be substituted for 30 m.p.h. speed limits. It is gratifying to see these things developing in that direction.

The matter I want to mention now has been discussed by Donegal County Council on numerous occasions. It has been mentioned at meetings of development associations. It has been recommended by the superintendent's office. It has been discussed by the local urban council. The local residents' association took up the battle and the result was that it ended up in court, all because the Minister would not sanction the re-siting of a speed limit sign. I do not know what the difficulty is, but it appears to me that it is a case of bickering between two individuals over something personal which I do not want to know anything about. I am referring to Ballyraine in Letterkenny. Cars travel at a fast pace along an uneven surfaced road, a very dangerous road, and if a child is fatally injured or seriously injured, I wonder who will accept responsibility. Lest members of the House may think I am exaggerating, I should like to give details.

Ballyraine is a housing estate which can be described as a private development. It leans to the north of Donegal from the town of Letterkenny and carries very heavy motor traffic. The area has developed beyond recognition in the past four or five years——

As a result of good Government policy. May I ask the Deputy if there have been any fatalities as a result of the present siting of the speed limits? I am trying to be helpful, not merely interrupting.

There has been none. Is that any reason why we should leave them alone? If Deputy Andrews will listen to me or go to Senator McGlinchey, he will get the whole background.

It is not in order to refer to Members of the other House in the Dáil.

That is a cynical question from Deputy Andrews——

It is a very reasonable question. If the present situation is satisfactory, why interfere with it?

The present situation is not all right.

The Deputy said there had been no fatalities.

Deputy Andrews might allow Deputy Harte to make his speech.

It is very good of him to come into the House at all. Usually he has to be sent for when the division bell rings.

Usually when the division bell rings, I am working on behalf of constituents in the Party rooms, like all other Fianna Fáil Deputies.

If Deputy Andrews will listen to me, I will give him the story of the situation.

I am trying to be helpful.

Ballyraine, Letterkenny, hit the national headlines because the Minister refused a recommendation of Donegal County Council, refused a recommendation of Letterkenny Urban Council—both local authorities controlled by Fianna Fáil—refused a recommendation of the Junior Chamber of Commerce and refused the pleas of residents, the fathers and mothers concerned. He refused his own colleague, Senator McGlinchey. This was a reasonable request put forward by reasonable people in the interests of the safety of their children. It received the endorsement of the local urban council and had the unanimous support of Donegal County Council. It was sent to the joint committee of members of the engineering staff and the superintendent's office and ultimately to the Minister for Local Government. It lay in his office for 12 months. Nobody understood why it was taking so long to sanction the re-siting of the poles which, for Deputy Andrews' information, was very necessary in the opinion of the local residents.

Surely it was a matter for the Garda traffic authorities?

After long months of waiting, the parents asked certain public representatives, including myself, to find out what was the delay. I put down a Parliamentary Question to the Minister who slickly informed me that he did not refuse sanction. Like George Washington, he did not tell a lie, but he declined to sanction it. If I am misinterpreting the Minister, he can correct me when replying. The net result is that the 30 m.p.h. signs are still where they were.

And there are still no fatal accidents.

The parents made appeals, possibly to the Minister—I imagine he has supporters there—and certainly to me and to Senator McGlinchey. The matter was discussed at local level and also in this House. The national Press took up the matter and all to no avail. As a last resort, four members of the public took the law into their own hands and resited the speed limit signs under the supervision of Senator McGlinchey. Even though he broke the law, I admire him for his civic spirit in taking the only action open to him when every other channel was blocked. An hour later, the engineering staff of Donegal County Council took the signs back and put them where they were and where they still stand. The four members of the public and Senator McGlinchey were prosecuted. The judge said that public representatives should use their good offices to see that the request of parents would be met. That was two months ago.

Deputy Andrews may twist his face and look at me and say: "You are overpainting the picture," but I hope I shall not have bad news of the son or daughter of some local resident being killed in that area. I know the danger. Deputy Andrews lives in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown——

I have a fair idea of the danger.

They are about six feet off the ground and ten years in front of us. He is not aware of, or alive to, problems in rural Ireland. I should like the Minister to explain why he has refused to sanction the plea of the parents and why he has put me in the situation that while I condemned the resiting of the poles as a breach of the law, I had to say that had I been living there in the same circumstances, I would most probably have done the same thing and gone to jail for it. This is a ridiculous situation, with bureaucracy gone mad. Why can the Minister not change the site? If there is some law preventing him from doing so, he is in a position to change the law. If there is such a law, it is a bad law. Laws are made to protect the citizens and we are here to represent those citizens.

Not very far from Ballyraine, Letterkenny, there is a very famous place called Portroad, or Portbridge, less than 100 yards across a field, away on a fork road. There is a re-alignment of a new road taking place there and it has been found necessary to have two sub-committees of members of Letterkenny electoral area to meet the engineering staff at that spot, less than 100 yards from the 30 m.p.h. sign. It has been necessary for a sub-committee of Letterkenny electoral area to meet the engineering section of Donegal County Council. It has been necessary to postpone two further meetings. It became necessary at that stage to make recommendations to the General Purposes Committee that certain regulations should be adopted which would solve the problem. This became necessary because of a battle within the Fianna Fáil Party.

This has nothing to do with the Estimates.

I am asking why it became necessary to ignore the Letterkenny site. It amounts to this: power corrupts absolutely. It is tantamount to that. I wish to put on record that a firm known as Messrs Luxury Inns Limited bought land in Ballyraine from someone from whom Donegal County Council wanted to buy land. Just across the road, there is another company. I apologise to the House for giving these facts and I apologise to the people concerned who are friends of mine but it is my duty to refer to them.

I should not like to have the Deputy for a friend on that basis.

The wish is mutual.

There is a conspiracy against the Government.

I should like to know why it has been necessary to call meetings to thresh out the differences between two groups of vested interests. The Minister for Local Government has a vested interest in Messrs Luxury Inns Limited. I assert that here. Why has the Minister taken such an interest in the Portroad Bridge? Why not in Ballyraine where children are exposed to all sorts of dangers from traffic? I am not concerned about the domestic matters affecting these two groups of vested interests. I can provide a living for my wife and family and I shall be here until my constituents decide to replace me. While I am here I shall expose the facts as I see them. It is for that reason that I mention the Portroad and Ballyraine sites. That is why the Minister or his family——

The Deputy must leave the Minister's family out of it.

I apologise. I assert that the Minister, to the best of my knowledge, through common gossip, has a vested interest in Messrs Luxury Inns Limited.

If the Deputy has not the facts, he should shut up.

I am speaking from my best authority and information and if the Minister categorically denies that he and another person——

We expect this from Fine Gael.

——I shall withdraw and apologise.

If what the Deputy has been saying is based on gossip, how can he have accurate facts?

I do not want to be interrupted by a Deputy from Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown.

The Deputy's premise is based on gossip. He is a person whose duty it is to formulate public opinion.

If the Deputy listened to some gossip, he would be better informed.

As far as we have been told, it is gossip we are listening to, nothing more.

I want the Minister, when replying, to refer to the rumour that he has got a vested interest in Messrs Luxury Inns Limited. I want him to explain why it has been necessary for Donegal County Council to form a sub-committee to go over the plans for the re-alignment scheme on a site that has been discussed. I want him to explain why it was necessary to hold a further meeting and then postpone it because it did not suit certain members. I want him to explain why it was necessary to hold a further meeting and to have that postponed as well because it did not suit certain members. If that is gossip, my life has been based on it.

That is agreed, too.

To the best of my knowledge the Minister has sanctioned certain proposals submitted by the county council. One of them is to the effect that a certain area which certain people offered to give to Messrs Luxury Inns Limited is described as a parcel of land for building purposes and cannot be used for any other purpose except, possibly, as an open space or green patch. Another proposal is that another portion would be used only for a car-park. Even after the recommendations made by the General Purposes Committee had been submitted to Messrs Luxury Inns Limited we had to wait to see if the recommendations were acceptable to certain people in high office. I am not interested in who will build a motel or a hotel in this area or who will build a petrol pump here or there. What I am interested in is people not so far away were prepared to give up part of their front gardens for no pay to widen the road in the interests of safety and nothing happens. Why has all this happened? I hope the Minister replies to that question. I assure him that if the information I have given is inaccurate or unfair I shall be the first to apologise publicly in the House.

Assuming, of course, that the Deputy takes the Minister's word that his criticism was unfair.

I shall use my discretion. I am capable of distinguishing between the truth and a lie. Recently in Donegal we had political windowdressing by members of the county council—Fianna Fáil members of course. At meeting after meeting motions were tabled by those members that money be spent in this direction and in that direction, that houses be built here and there.

The Minister has no responsibility for what happens at meetings of Donegal County Council.

I agree, but I have. I have a responsibility to tell the people, when there is windowdressing and when a certain councillor should be called to account. I might add that part of the windowdressing has been in the form of a motion by a responsible Fianna Fáil member asking the council to increase roadworkers' wages to £10 a week. Today during Question Time the Minister refused, in defiance of pleas put forward by Deputies Kyne, Corish, Cluskey and other Labour Deputies, to concede a request from certain local authorities to be allowed to increase roadworkers' wages.

I do not for a minute expect certain Deputies to work out how a council worker can live on £8 15s a week which includes a recent increase. I do not expect certain Deputies, because they are far-removed from the problem, to figure out how a young married man with a growing family of six or seven can support that family on that wage. A person must live among those people to appreciate their plight. We must remember that it is not the Government who will foot the bill. It is the ratepayers, and God knows, they are hard pressed, particularly the small businessmen and the average farmer to meet the increased demands for rates.

This to me is not so much the reason why the Labour Party are agitating for increased wages for road workers. It is not an argument put forward by the Fine Gael Party why the rates should be kept down. This is tantamount to increasing taxation to an unbearable extent on the ratepayers and taxpayers who have to shoulder this burden. If the Government had something to show for increased taxation and increased rates we could at least praise one another or look to the good things that have been done.

What are the achievements of this Government? I cannot see any great achievements or any great steps forward by the Fianna Fáil Party now in power. Road workers in Donegal are living on a pittance of £8 15s and find it virtually impossible to support a wife and family. This is one of the factors in the situation which the Census of Population has disclosed, that the population of Donegal has fallen so low that possibly in the next general election five TDs will be returned to this Parliament.

I am in sympathy with the ratepayers whose plight this year is even greater than it would be in a normal year, particularly the plight of the farmers who six or seven months ago put emphasis on livestock in order to increase their agricultural income and be in a position to meet the demand of an increased rate. They now discover it is virtually impossible to sell livestock; if they sell it they will lose money on it and if they keep it they will meet a glut at the end of the year. I forecast, as a person who knows the livestock industry——

The Deputy is getting away from Local Government. He is now on agriculture and livestock.

I am coming to the point that farmers from Donegal are protesting this weekend against increased rates.

The Deputy may not go into detail on cattle prices.

I think it is relevant.

It is not relevant. The Minister has no responsibility for cattle prices.

I agree.

If the Deputy agrees, the matter is settled.

I am pointing out how difficult it is for small and average size farmers to meet their rates. Furthermore, they are not going into the local shops or public houses and these business people, in turn, find it difficult to meet the increased rates. This is why I bring up the price of cattle. As a person who has been brought up in that tradition let me forecast I will not be surprised if the price of cattle goes lower before the end of December.

The Minister has no responsibility for cattle.

But the Government have.

We are discussing the Minister's Estimate. If the Deputy does not wish to listen to the Chair, I shall have to ask him to sit down. He will confine his remarks to the Estimate and nothing else.

I do not wish to be taken to task in regard to your ruling but I think it is more important to mention, in passing, the price of cattle than for Deputy Burke to be talking about downpipes in County Dublin, or to be telling us about his excursions in Europe.

The Deputy has mentioned this matter a few times. Deputy Burke referred to a water scheme in County Dublin, which is entirely relevant.

It is just as relevant for me to mention the price of cattle as for him to be talking about going up downpipes. I hold that in this particular year when a motion has been passed by the county council on Monday last, and if my memory serves me, you supported that motion——

The Chair does not support any motions of the county council.

My apologies—Deputy Breslin supported it. That motion was to ask the county manager to request the rate collectors not to press farmers for their second moiety of rates for 1966-67. These farmers are not protesting against the increase in rates if they could afford to pay them but because they cannot afford to pay them since their livelihood is being taken from them. These farmers are rational men. They are not lay-abouts or men who lie in bed until dinnertime or seek an easy way of life. They are hardworking, sensible men who want to pay their just debts. If these men have to go to that extreme to make their point, surely someone must listen to them. If the Government cannot help them, surely the Government should recognise public opinion and resign from office and stop talking about resignation from leadership and who is going to follow on.

Talking about resignations, we had a change of chairmanship in Donegal County Council over a matter at which most Deputies outside the Fianna Fáil Party still guess. Deputy Cunningham is a personal friend of mine and I do not wish to name him while he is not in the House. He resigned from the chairmanship of the county council and a certain statement was made by another member of the county council at that meeting that he would invoke section 4 to suspend the county manager for not listening to the Party hacks of Fianna Fáil. We still wait with a certain amount of suspense for that motion to be tabled and to see what is to happen. I think it was an idle threat made by a very idle gentleman, with nothing better to do than make such statements.

I might add that when the summer was about to approach another matter arose which created a certain amount of controversy out of which I stayed clear and which I should now like to put on the record of the House, that is, the public water system in Letterkenny. The water system in Letterkenny is very old, and a certain member of the Fianna Fáil Party, who is a member of the county council, a member of the Upper House of this Parliament and a member of the urban council, found it necessary to spotlight the seriousness of the position in regard to the water supply there.

At that time he had my full support because it seemed that some fine morning the residents of Letterkenny would discover they had no water. For some reason the scheme was not providing the water required for all the consumers in the urban district of Letterkenny.

A special meeting of the council was convened to examine the matter. The public representative to whom I have referred sent me an invitation through the county council to accompany a deputation to Lough Salt to have that aspect of the matter examined, Lough Salt being the lough that supplies the water. I did not go on the deputation and certain people used that fact to further their own political ends by suggesting that I was not interested in the water supply for Letterkenny. I want to put on the record of this House that I have not to be invited by any member of the Fianna Fáil Party to visit any place in my constituency. Lough Salt is in my constituency and long before that invitation was issued I had visited Lough Salt and was aware of the difficulties the engineering section were wrestling with in an effort to solve the problem, indeed the mystery, of the Letterkenny water supply. At that time that public representative wanted the county council to spend £50,000 or £60,000 of the ratepayers' money to satisfy his own curiosity as to why water was not going through the pipe. It was suggested that the pipe was porous. My information was that certain meter readings were inaccurate, that a test was being made and if that test proved fruitless it would be necessary——

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

I was about to say that if the urban council would not spend the amount of money necessary to meet their commitments, it would be necessary for the county council to provide the finance required to solve the mystery.

The calculations of the engineering section have now proved to everyone concerned that the meter readings were wrong and that there was some fault completely beyond the control and knowledge of any individual, be he public representative, engineer or water diviner, and that the water supply is now satisfactory or at least there is a big improvement.

A major problem about to be created in this country is water pollution. Slow as the provision of sanitary services may be and slow as progress with the housing programme may be, the fact is that people do provide sanitary and toilet facilities for themselves and, fishing industries can be destroyed by the lack of control of discharge of sewage into rivers. The Parliamentary Secretary may not be aware of this but I know of a scheme that has been recently installed by Donegal County Council in connection with which there is no septic tank. This scheme is serving 14 to 20 houses and can be developed to serve twice that number. The sewage is being discharged into the River Foyle. When I was agitating that public sewerage be provided to serve these houses I was not aware of this development in our social habits. I agreed at the time to the request of the engineers to allow this sewage to be discharged into the River Foyle without treatment. Having re-examined the matter, I am in doubt as to whether it was a good idea. For the extra £200 or £300 that a septic tank would cost, all danger to health and to a very good fishing industry which provides an important income for many families on the shore of Lough Foyle would have been removed.

This problem has been discussed by other Deputies during this prolonged debate and it is only right that I should echo their plea and ask the Parliamentary Secretary to bring this problem to the notice of the Minister for Local Government. I know that the Minister is aware of it but he may not be fully alive to the fact that it may develop to an extent that it might be impossible for a local authority or indeed a government to control.

If a small Industry is situated along any river into which sewage is discharged, the matter can be controlled now but, in ten years' time, if that industry has been built up to the extent that it employs 100 men and 100 families are depending on it and if the local authority says that the discharge into the river has caused anthrax or some other disease, it may be very difficult to remove the nuisance at that stage. If it is a case of anthrax there will be a complete close down and everybody will be on the side of the authorities. If it were some public health nuisance that was caused and if fishermen were deprived of an income, it might be very difficult to deal with the matter. In the city of Dublin, where industries could be developed to a much greater extent than in Donegal, it might be impossible for a government to abate a nuisance caused in this way.

I dealt with housing at the outset of my speech because that is the problem that is foremost in the mind of any public representative at the moment. In case certain Deputies in the Fianna Fáil back benchers might have jumped to any conclusions, I want to say that anything that I have said was not directed to any person. I do not think I have over-emphasised the case for better housing. I want especially to plead for better housing for the people of North-East Donegal who have sent me here to represent them.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 11th October, 1966.
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