There are ten minutes left for the mover of the motion.
Private Members' Business - ESB Charges (Resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the Electricity Supply Board should not increase its charges to domestic consumers by seven per cent in view of the undue hardship which this price increase would create together with the inflationary situation which such an increase would initiate; and also considers that the ESB special charges should be abolished.
—(Deputy Mullen.)
When speaking on this motion last week, the Minister for Transport and Power repeated something which he is forever preaching. He said that wage increases are the cause of price increases and he neglected to indicate the real cause of this difficulty. It is extremely unfair of the Minister for Transport and Power to continue to carry on this argument. He knows well that increases are brought about by many other things. For instance, he neglected to refer to the fact that taxation brought about increases, particularly the purchase tax, for which his Government are responsible. The Minister has a penchant for talking down to working-class people but his action in connection with the seven per cent increase is indefensible, I submit, for a host of reasons, and particularly for the reason that last year the Minister admits the ESB had a surplus of over £243,000. He went on to say that if we had less rain in 1965-66 the ESB would have lost more. It would seem to me that the Minister is looking into the future, as he is accustomed to do, and has now taken unto himself the authority to indicate that we shall have less rain next year. One might almost believe he has consulted with the "rainmaker". This attitude will not suffice. If we are to have regard to projections, we must not forget that the ESB will have four new stations in operation next year. Consequently, there will be more electricity consumed and the more consumed, the more the prospects of making a profit increase rather than diminish.
When we think seriously in terms of utilisation of electricity, we must remember that the Minister is responsible for preventing more electricity from being used. I refer to the special service charges. It is reasonable to assume that if these special charges were not imposed, there would be a greater desire to use electricity.
As I said already, one thing in which the Minister was wrong was his action in putting on this seven per cent increase without referring to the Department of Industry and Commerce. We can recall the many speeches in which the Minister spoke about all the caution that should be exercised and we must bear in mind also what he did and what heed is taken of what he says and did. Were it not for this lead given by the Minister, I do not think we would have this truculent move on the part of the flour millers in the past few days. Obviously, they thought that if the Minister for Transport and Power could have an increase of seven per cent in ESB charges without getting prior sanction, they could do the same. Perhaps this is the type of inflationary encouragement of which the Minister should take serious notice. From these benches we have repeatedly objected to the way in which increases have been extended, particularly in regard to ESB charges, because we know, and our motion indicates, the need and desire that something should be done to relieve rather than to discourage domestic consumers.
When Deputy Booth spoke on this matter, his approach was that people could make arrangements to combat the difficulty by using less electricity. The people who are asked to do that, in so far as they are domestic consumers, are people who need electricity. They have been encouraged to change from other types of lighting, heating and cooking to electricity and we now find a Fianna Fáil Deputy advocating that there should be less electricity used. Of course, people in his group can afford all the electricity they require because they are in the employer classes and can pay their ESB bills without worrying too much about seven per cent.
The Minister said it was "only" seven per cent, as did Deputy Booth, but the extraordinary thing is that there was an outcry when members of the workingclasses who were organised tried to get increases of approximately seven per cent. Apparently, there is nothing wrong when this is done by the Minister. I hold that the Minister is premature in the matter of increasing ESB charges. That is so even when you go on results of the previous year, which we can see were not bad. The Minister has not yet indicated why he sees next year as being bad, why there will be a likelihood of or need for the absorption of the seven per cent increase. He has not, to my mind, made a case for it. Perhaps he is keeping it in reserve for the time when he goes to the Department of Industry and Commerce or when the ESB go there to advocate that the increase should continue. This is like locking the stable door when the horse has gone. It is something that has happened and there is little likelihood, if any, that the Department of Industry and Commerce will not approve what the Minister has set out to do.
If we look into the future without thinking in terms of rainmaking but having regard to improvements that have been advocated in the ESB, we must remember that the four new stations that are to be put into operation are put there for a purpose. Or are we to assume they will be put there but not operated? I understood that the more electricity is produced and the more consumed, the better. We want people to use electricity. It would appear that the Minister's action will deter people from using electricity. We have been advocating that this charge should not be imposed on domestic consumers. The way out of the morass in which the Minister may find himself is not to advocate that people should put out the light or that they should ignore the baby crying for a bottle. These things cannot and should not be done. The Minister's action in this matter is extremely wrong and unfair. Certainly, having regard to his reputation for being the knowing one and talking down to the people, the example which he has set in this matter is extremely bad. If everybody outside State Departments is going to take this lead from the Minister, you can forget about the Prices Act. The Minister has certainly encouraged the flour millers. I earnestly hope they do not get away with it, but there will be others to follow. It is only natural to say: "The Minister for Transport and Power can do this; so can we".
I know it would be too much to ask the Minister to meet us in some way in regard to this motion. An acknowledgment that he made a mistake would be an admission on the part of the Minister which he has never been known to make. If the Minister were to act in a reasonable fashion and give effect to what he says when he talks down to people as to how they should behave, he would go back to the situation where there was no seven per cent and save a considerable number of workingclass people from this vicious increase.
Question put.
The Dáil divide d: Tá, 33; Níl, 65.
Tá
- Belton, Luke.
- Burke, Joan T.
- Byrne, Patrick.
- Clinton, Mark A.
- Cluskey, Frank.
- Corish, Brendan.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Creed, Donal.
- Crotty, Patrick J.
- Desmond, Eileen.
- Donegan, Patrick S.
- Dunne, Seán.
- Dunne, Thomas.
- Everett, James.
- Farrelly, Dennis.
- Fitzpatrick, Thomas J.
- (Cavan).
- Flanagan, Oliver J.
- Jones, Denis F.
- Kyne, Thomas A.
- Larkin, Denis.
- L'Estrange, Gerald.
- Lindsay, Patrick J.
- Mullen, Michael.
- Norton, Patrick.
- O'Hara, Thomas.
- O'Higgins, Michael J.
- O'Higgins, Thomas F.K.
- O'Leary, Michael.
- Pattison, Séamus.
- Ryan, Richie.
- Sweetman, Gerard.
- Tierney, Patrick.
- Tully, James.
Níl
- Andrews, David.
- Blaney, Neil T.
- Boland, Kevin.
- Booth, Lionel.
- Boylan, Terence.
- Brady, Philip.
- Brennan, Joseph.
- Brennan, Paudge.
- Breslin, Cormac.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, Patrick.
- Burke, Patrick J.
- Carty, Michael.
- Childers, Erskine.
- Clohessy, Patrick.
- Colley, George.
- Collins, James J.
- Corry, Martin J.
- Cotter, Edward.
- Crinion, Brendan.
- Cronin, Jerry.
- Crowley, Flor.
- Davern, Don.
- de Valera, Vivion.
- Dowling, Joe.
- Egan, Nicholas.
- Fahey, John.
- Fanning, John.
- Faulkner, Pádraig.
- Fitzpatrick, Thomas J.
- (Dublin South-Central).
- Flanagan, Seán.
- Foley, Desmond.
- Gallagher, James.
- Geoghegan, John.
- Gibbons, James M.
- Gilbride, Eugene.
- Gogan, Richard P.
- Haughey, Charles.
- Healy, Augustine A.
- Hillery, Patrick J.
- Hilliard, Michael.
- Kenneally, William.
- Kennedy, James J.
- Kitt, Michael F.
- Lalor, Patrick J.
- Lemass, Noel T.
- Lemass, Seán.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Lenihan, Patrick.
- Lynch, Celia.
- Lynch, Jack.
- Meaney, Tom.
- Millar, Anthony G.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Mooney, Patrick.
- Moore, Seán
- Moran, Michael.
- Nolan, Thomas.
- Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
- Ó Ceallaigh, Seán
- O'Connor, Timothy.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Donogh.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Pattison and James Tully; Níl: Deputies Carty and Geoghegan.
Question declared lost.
I understand there is a decision to resume Public Business.