Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Mar 1967

Vol. 227 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 38 — Agriculture (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the vote be referred back for reconsideration.

— (Deputy Clinton).

Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries (Mr. Blaney)

In dealing with the NAC, I did not mention the other matter that was raised, somewhat related to it, that is, membership of the NIEC. Membership of the NIEC is a matter which has yet to be arranged. What I can tell the House is that agriculture will be represented in the future on the NIEC. Whether it remains the NIEC or what I cannot tell Deputies, but it will be the same body with agricultural interests added to it. How many representatives of farming interests will ultimately be accommodated within the overall NIEC I do not know. This has not yet been arranged, but as soon as it is I shall tell the House what will be the additional membership in order to accommodate the agricultural members. The main thing is that agriculture will be brought into the NIEC, and that in the near future.

The drop in pig numbers has been mentioned by a number of speakers. It is pretty well accepted that this is a drop which has taken place in many other European countries and that has taken place here time and again. There does not appear as yet to have been found any real answer to this cycle of up and down in numbers of pigs, either in this country or in any other of the west European countries. At the moment we are in a valley period in regard to pig numbers. The indications are that a slight upturn can be expected but not quite as big an upturn as the indicators would imply.

We are studyng at the moment what can be done ultimately to sort out this rather difficult problem, but it does not seem to be related only to the price of pigs or the price of feed in relation to the price of pigs or the price of bacon relative to the price of pigs, relative to the price of feed. If it is not these factors, then our problem is to find what are the factors. As I say, we are not alone in not having found the cause of this recurring problem, but this is not in any way taking from our enthusiasm in pursuing the problem in order to try to find a solution to it.

The questions of meat marketing and cattle sales have come up here in a big way, not for the first time but what I rather liked to hear today, between questions and the contributions made on this Supplementary Estimate, was the two approaches: one suggesting meat marketing standing alone, as it were, and implying trading in the full sense, and the other suggesting sales promotion which, I take it, would be rather less than the overall meat marketing arrangements that the others had been talking about.

Mr. Clinton

Sales promotion for live cattle, but a meat marketing board for meat.

Mr. Blaney

Deputy Clinton appears to be looking for more than anybody else.

Mr. Clinton

No; that is what everybody is looking for.

Mr. Blaney

Is that so?

Mr. Clinton

As far as I know.

Mr. Blaney

I do not think the Deputy knows, but that is neither here nor there. This market for our meat and cattle is, as everybody will admit, the most important sector of our economy and the most important element of our export trade. Any change we make in regard to sales of cattle and meat must be treated with the utmost caution. Before we make any change we must be sure that the new system of organisation will do a better job than is being done at the moment.

In regard to an overall trading organisation for cattle and meat, I would say for the benefit of the House, which seems anxious to know what I think about this, that I do not agree that it has been proven that any new organisation could, without endangering our present situation, take over from our present system even though it may have defects. What I am trying to get across is that a full trading board for cattle and meat has yet to be proven to be a better thing for the future than what we now have. Therefore, in so far as I shall be making a recommendation to the Government, I shall be recommending against any board that would take over the sales of our cattle and meat.

Mr. Clinton

So would I.

Mr. L'Estrange

Did anybody ask for that?

Mr. Blaney

In regard to promotion, with the demands that are being made and the advocacy of some sort of board rather undefined by many people and, having looked at the situation, I have come to the conclusion that what is required is a sales promotion board, probably not just for meat but for livestock, not just cattle but sheep and lambs as well. What I have in mind is an organisation for meat, cattle and sheep which would be to the agricultural arm of our economy what CTT is to the industrial arm. Something roughly on those lines is what I have in mind, but without being tied to definition and details with which I could not be expected to deal unless and until the Government agree to such an organisation, this would be the line on which I believe some usefulness could be got from a board.

Mr. Clinton

Does the Minister not agree it would be very hard to measure the performance of such a board?

Mr. Blaney

My attitude is that unless you have these things it is purely a hypothetical exercise to try to measure their worth. If we are to take it from there I am afraid the answer would be that since we cannot determine its value before we try it, there is no point in trying it. What I am saying is what I would be prepared to recommend to the Government for acceptance is an organisation for agricultural produce which would bear an analogy to CTT which caters for industrial produce. If it comes into being and proves itself, then we can see by stages whether or not a trading board would be to our advantage, and then steps towards that could ultimately be taken. I am not at all hopeful that this will be proved but I am prepared to go as far as I have said to consider sales promotion, giving assistance to existing sellers of our produce, existing shippers and existing exporters to go into new fields and try to find new markets and, generally, to lay things on for them through our own trade representatives and our Embassies abroad in order to make it easier for them to get into such new fields, to probe them and find out what they are worth right on the spot. That is what I believe the role of such a board should be and, so far as that goes, it is a line on which I would be prepared to make a start. It might be the only thing we would ever do.

Mr. Clinton

Better than nothing.

Mr. Blaney

I will not even say that. It might prove not to be as good as nothing but, at least, if we try, we can find out. If it is a failure we will know it is not the right way. If it is a success, or a near success, we will have gained something, and it may be that from our experience we will find even better ways than any of us have thought of so far.

Deputy Clinton talked about our efficient meat industry, but he also alleged that there seemed to be dumping on the British market. Now he cannot have it both ways. If they are as efficient as the Deputy says then dumping cannot possibly be the end product of efficiency. I will give the Deputy one but not both.

There has been talk of promises made and debts unpaid by my predecessor. Big play has been made of the £10 million increase and the £5 to £7 a head increase in cattle; it is alleged that it was said that this would be the result of the Free Trade Area Agreement. Maybe I am innocent but my recollection — I am not depending on quotations either in or out of context — of that matter is that it was claimed that the Free Trade Area Agreement would be worth in a 12 month period anything up to £10 million to us.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

£10 million from 1st July, 1966. That was the definite statement.

Mr. Blaney

Twelve months from then; that is OK. My recollection is that it was said it would be worth up to £10 million to our farmers. If that recollection is correct, then the allegations made are incorrect, the allegations being that, because cattle prices slumped in the back end of the year, and people got less for their cattle than they got 12 months previously, my predecessor was proved to be completely out of line.

Mr. L'Estrange

He told us cattle prices would increase.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Over and above the price existing last January.

Mr. Blaney

My recollection is as good as out-of-context quotations by Deputies. I think it was Deputy L'Estrange who was making what was alleged to be a quotation, but he did not give the source.

Mr. L'Estrange

I can back it up with half a dozen quotations, not just one.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Blaney

I still say my recollection of what was said at the time in regard to cattle was that in the 12 months starting last July the Free Trade Area Agreement would be worth up to £10 million. In fact it has probably been worth that, and maybe more to the cattle industry.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

That is an idea the Minister will have some difficulty in selling to the people.

Mr. Blaney

The people are not at all as confused as the Deputy would like to think they are.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): A figure of £5 to £7 a head was mentioned.

Mr. Blaney

I was clearly left with the belief, which I still hold, that this Free Trade Area Agreement in regard to cattle would be worth up to £10 million and I believe those expectations have been realised. Had it not been for the Agreement, we would have lost £10 million.

Mr. Clinton

We lost £10 million plus.

Mr. L'Estrange

Cattle prices down £15 a head.

Mr. Blaney

I suppose the Deputy is worried because they have gone up today.

Mr. L'Estrange

I am not a bit sorry. I took the Minister's advice; I held.

Mr. Blaney

I come now to the vexed question of directing payments of subsidy on cattle back to the producers. As I said before, if I can find a way to do this, if it is feasible, I will be glad to do it. It is not easy, however, and the fact that it has never been tried up to now is because it did not readily present itself as the proper way in the first year. We have really only been operating it for the past nine months. It has not been running so very long. We are gaining experience and we are seeking other ways in which to get it more directly to the farmer. If we can find a way, and if it is feasible, I shall be very happy to operate it in that way.

With regard to the newspaper advertisement, I do not understand why so many Deputies get so hot under the collar about this, and all on that side of the House.

Mr. Clinton

The Minister would not expect Deputies on his side of the House to get hot under the collar about waste of the taxpayer's money.

Mr. Blaney

I can only say I am sorry we did not have the advertisement much earlier.

Mr. Clinton

We had it last October.

Mr. L'Estrange

The Minister had an advertisement about Donegal Fair being held.

Mr. Blaney

Why did the Deputy not go up to Muff, to Bridgend, and to the Labbadish factory which stayed open all the week?

Mr. L'Estrange

There was not a single beast in the Minister's home town of Donegal.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will Deputy L'Estrange allow the Minister to make his speech?

Mr. Blaney

The Deputy is trying to cause a dispute. He should keep in mind what I have said; there are things I should like to say to the Deputy but they would not be conducive to harmony.

Mr. L'Estrange

The Minister can say what he likes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is being continuously disorderly. He should try to set a headline.

Mr. Blaney

He does, but it is the wrong kind.

Mr. L'Estrange

The Minister was ordered out of this House in 1964 and he knows that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. Blaney

The Minister will be 20 years in this House in the not too distant future and he has never been ordered out — not once.

Mr. L'Estrange

The House had to be adjourned and the Taoiseach had to come in and apologise to the House on the Minister's behalf.

Mr. Blaney

The Taoiseach never had to apologise in 1954 or 1964, or at any other time.

Mr. L'Estrange

I will get the Official Report. The Minister's memory is very short.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Deputy allow the Minister to proceed?

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Would the Minister tell us what he has in mind about the proposed bacon factory for West Cork?

Mr. Blaney

It would be a pleasure if I could get round to talking about West Cork, which is unlikely because of the barrage across the floor of the House.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The Minister is talking about advertisements; we are saying it looks as if the abortive fair in Donegal brought the advertisement about.

Mr. Blaney

What I am trying to tell you is that you could go to Muff, to the Bridgend border, or the Labbadish factory and see how the business of commodity was carried out all through that week without any organisation being set up. You do not read these things in the paper.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I am talking about the fair in Donegal.

Mr. Blaney

The advertisement was well worth its money and in any circumstances, would have been worth it in order that the confusion created by propaganda should once and for all be blown skyhigh. The members of Fine Gael should take it to themselves that the figures quoted, regardless of what they think about how they are made up, and compared with the figures given by the last Coalition Government, of which you people were the bosses, amounted to something under £17½ million and using the same yardstick today it has gone up to about £55 million.

Mr. L'Estrange

How much have money values lost? Relate it to the change in money values.

Mr. Blaney

Do not trip yourselves up: £17½ million was the most you were giving in 1956-57 and it is now somewhere around £54 million or £55 million.

Mr. L'Estrange

You are putting a 2/6 postal order around our butter and——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Would Deputy L'Estrange cease interrupting?

(Interruptions.)

Mr. L'Estrange

——when the British market was gone and gone forever, thanks be to God.

A Deputy

You reduced the price of wheat by 12/- a barrel.

Mr. L'Estrange

It was the same price ten years afterwards. You did not change it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Would Deputies allow the Minister to proceed with his speech?

Mr. L'Estrange

"The British market is gone and gone for ever, thanks be to God, and we whipped John Bull". Now you are tied to his tail.

Mr. Blaney

I assert again that the newspaper advertisement was well worth the money if for no better reason——

Mr. Clinton

I thought the Minister would be ashamed to mention it.

Mr. Blaney

If Deputies cannot take it, they should leave the House and read it tomorrow.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Would both sides cease interrupting? If they cannot listen to the Minister, they might leave the House.

Mr. L'Estrange

If they hurl insinuations across the House, we will reply.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has been interrupting since he entered the House.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Give the Minister a chance.

Mr. Blaney

Again I assert — and I hope it will be for the last time — that the advertisement was well worth the money if it was only for the purpose of showing Fine Gael how hypocritical they had been in these months past in adding any confusion they could to the propaganda that nothing was being done for the farmers by this Fianna Fáil Government.

Mr. L'Estrange

Tell us about what some Fianna Fáil supporters got by way of industrial grant?

Mr. Blaney

If we were talking about industry, you could get all that. You can get all you want. The fact of the matter is that there was good value in the advertisement. It was an excellent advertisement and the cribbing by the Opposition Parties is clear evidence that it got across to them.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

It was an abuse of public funds.

Mr. Blaney

Deputies should in fact keep in mind that this got across. If Deputies had something to say, they should have got up and said it. They will not put me off even if we are to be here until Easter.

Mr. L'Estrange

We know that. The Minister wallows in it.

Mr. Blaney

The Deputy has not learned any lessons from it. We have got this abuse which comes with hindsight and our great agriculturalists in this House on the Opposition benches say that our difficulties are related to the calved heifer scheme. I have not taken the trouble to go into the records of the time that this scheme was introduced but I am quite sure that there is far more criticism being expressed now by these learned agriculturalists, with the hindsight they have now got, compared with what they could have said but did not say at the time the scheme was being introduced.

Mr. L'Estrange

It was said then.

Mr. Blaney

The fact is that only three years ago, approximately, the scheme was embarked upon to push the total cow herd up from about 1,300,000 to approximately 1,700,000 in order to give us an export figure of approximately 1,500,000 head of cattle per year. This seemed to be a very laudable thing to do particularly at a time when cattle prices were good and the general outlook for cattle sales was good and continued to be good until a very short time ago. This scheme operated to bring up the cow herd to around 1.6 million and it is possible that it may go to the 1.7 million. Let me say that it is not true, as has been asserted by Deputy Dillon and others, that we have undone the work of 40 years in the Department of Agriculture, in the last two years. Deputy Dillon said it took us 40 years to eliminate scrub bulls and that in the past two years we have introduced scrub heifers. All I can say is that if we had eradicated scrub bulls, there would be no scrub heifers. This is a true situation.

We have not yet eradicated the scrub bulls and despite Deputy Dillon's claim about his own participation in this when he was Minister for Agriculture, I am sorry to disappoint him and I can tell him that my belief is we have far too many scrub bulls still. We are taking the steps which I hope will eradicate if possible, or trim down to a very small number, the unsuitable scrub bulls which are all too numerous today. It is not right to say that the calved heifer scheme has been a failure, that it has been the cause of all our difficulties and that we should never have introduced it. Hindsight is a great thing and the people in Fine Gael seem to have an abundance of it in this regard. I do not agree with them.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Does the Minister think that the heifer scheme has improved the standard of cattle?

Mr. Blaney

I have at times been inclined to stand here like a witness being cross-questioned but I do not care for that any more. I am not answering questions which are put up in that manner. If the Deputy has something useful to say, then he had the opportunity to say it on this Estimate during the debate today. If it was that useful, he could have contributed and then I might have been in the position to reply. I am not going to reply to these questions being thrown across at me.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Harte

Does the Minister seriously contend that the calved heifer scheme improved the cattle industry?

Mr. Blaney

If I may proceed. There has been talk about the heifer scheme and the moneys provided in the Estimate. I was asked where the bulk of this money will go.

Mr. Harte

It was cod.

Mr. Blaney

The advertisement was well worth the money it cost. This money is being used to offset the excess on other items. We heard a bit about the delays on the land project. I must say I agree with these complaints about delays because they are far too long and they are not conducive to getting farmers to avail of the scheme. It is a very good scheme. If there are delays of five, six or ten months it is not desirable, because when a farmer decides he wants to drain a field he has the following season in mind. He wants to apply, to get approval, to get the job done, to get paid for it, and to get on with his business. That is not possible in many cases. We are trying to take the steps open to us to remedy this situation and to reduce the delays between the date of application and the initial inspection and preparation of the scheme. We hope to make progress in that direction.

I have a certain amount of sympathy with those who complain about the inspectors being rather sticky about passing work unless it was approved before it started, because if the work is up to standard, as is often the case, even though it was commenced before it was cleared, I do not see why we should stand on ceremony and say we cannot pay because we did not approve the job before a spade was put in the ground or a machine was operated. I hope to see if there are any outstanding cases of that nature which have been dealt with in that manner in the past, and where it can be shown that a good job was done even though it did not meet the procedural arrangements in existence at the time and I hope we can be flexible within reason.

A few Deputies expressed their dissatisfaction with the system of grading pigs in factories. This is a matter on which I already have quite a bit of information. I have talked to the interests concerned on the curing side and in the Pigs and Bacon Commission. This may well be one of the features which are not giving satisfaction to the producers, but which are capable of being eliminated. We must remember, however, that the grading of pigs is for the purpose of providing good bacon for the export trade. This is bacon of a very high standard. Even though grading may be irksome from the point of view of the producer it is necessary to ensure that what we are sending out is a first class product that can compete with the best coming from any producing nation in the world.

I think it was Deputy Esmonde who was opposed to the export of live cattle as stores or fats. He suggested they should be killed at home and exported as carcase meat. This could not be done over-night and even if it were capable of being done a very valuable store trade has existed for some time with England. Dead meat would be very little compensation for people who want stores. We would want to have an absolute surplus and we would be very foolish to jettison in any way our store trade and convert it to killing at home and sending out carcase beef. Our store trade is a very valuable trade indeed.

Deputy Donegan referred to the fact that there might well be difficulties at the back end of this year. I have already said in many places outside the House that difficulties could arise at the back end of this year. This could be brought about by the imposition of levies such as last year's levies. The only thing is that this year we know in advance that this could happen. This time last year no one — not even the Fine Gael Party — knew that levies would be imposed on 1st June.

Mr. Harte

Does the Minister seriously suggest that no one knew this this time last year? This shows how out of touch he is.

Mr. Blaney

There is no point in the Deputy trying to crow me down. I am answering a question which was asked. I am saying that whoever knew it, they did not convey it to the public; they did not convey it to the Government; and they could not have conveyed it to the Commission in Brussels because they did not take action until the following June. All this hooey about having advance information and knowing that the levies would be applied this time last year when it was not capable of being known——

Mr. Harte

The indicators pointed in that direction.

Mr. Blaney

Anyone who says he knew it this time last year is not telling the truth or he has some sort of foresight——

Mr. Harte

Which Fianna Fáil have not got.

Mr. Blaney

—which ordinary mortals do not possess. Even the Fine Gael Party collectively or individually did not know it this time last year. Coming along and trotting out now that we should have that information is no answer——

Mr. Harte

The Minister is paid for knowing it.

Mr. L'Estrange

Surely the Minister's predecessor should have known it when he spoke here last May.

Mr. Clinton

The Minister was exhorted for two years to do something about the markets.

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman (Mr. James Tully)

The Minister must be allowed to conclude his speech. Deputies had an opportunity of making their contributions and the Minister must be allowed to conclude.

Mr. Blaney

It would be very easy for me to conclude. If Deputies want it this way, I can stop talking.

Mr. Harte

The Minister would be doing himself justice.

Mr. Blaney

I would not be doing the Deputy justice.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Blaney

Deputy L'Estrange had this to say about——

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Deputy Corry is a purebred Hereford.

Mr. L'Estrange

He is not a scrub.

Mr. Blaney

I am not prepared to continue with this.

Mr. Harte

The Minister has collapsed.

Mr. Blaney

The Minister never collapses, as the Deputy well knows.

Acting Chairman

The Minister must be allowed to conclude. One side of the House is as bad as the other. Would the Minister's backbenchers please give him a chance, as well as the Fine Gael front bench? I think it is only fair to do so.

Mr. Corry

Everybody is trying——

Acting Chairman

Please, Deputy Corry, refrain from interrupting. You have said too much already. I now call on the Minister.

Mr. Blaney

I am thankful to the Chair. Deputy Murphy talked here today on many matters, including a West Cork bacon factory. I think I am correct in saying that he appeared to be against central pig fattening stations.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

That is my personal viewpoint.

Mr. Blaney

I do not want to dispute what Deputy Murphy has said on this matter but I should like to say that somewhat of a survey has been carried out in regard to these stations. Further informations are being sought by my Department in connection with the survey. I would sound a little note of warning that the preliminary information we have got does not encourage one to believe that the establishment of more and more of these pig fattening stations may be the answer to any problem we have in regard to the bacon or pig industry at the moment. I cannot say any more than that because it is only preliminary information. However, I should like to sound that note of warning to approach the setting-up of these stations with some caution until we get a full evaluation as a result of the survey in regard to them.

Deputy M.P. Murphy made the case that it is unfair that pig curing should not take place where the pigs are produced. If enough pigs are not being produced somewhere to justify the curing of them there, I think the Deputy will agree that they must be moved further afield to be cured. This is not to say that I am either prejudging or judging the West Cork claim that they should have the factory but I would reiterate that we have excess capacity in our existing factories. They have a throughput of 2.6 million and the throughput this year is 1.5 million. In other words, well under one million of the throughput capacity is left unused. In these circumstances and in a competitive market in which we sell no bacon without subsidising it, it seems to me that the rational approach should be that we should go very warily on the creation of and addition to our killing and curing capacity until we know where we are going.

In regard to the West Cork claim for a factory, this question of a factory for curing bacon in the ordinary traditional way is not new. At the same time, there being no factory there already, it cannot be regarded as an adaptation job which would qualify for particular grants and, not being a business of a new nature, it does not appear to qualify for industrial or Foras Tionscal grants. While the Deputy would appear to think that I and my Department are responsible for whether or not West Cork gets the grants for the pig factory there, I would point out that if it is a question of an industrial type grant it will be a matter for An Foras Tionscal and not for the Minister for Agriculture.

Figures were quoted of various prices for wheat and barley, and so on. Claims have been made here which I think require some sort of reply. There was the claim that it was Deputy Dillon who announced a price of 50/a barrel for the 1948 barley crop. Of course, what was not added to that was the fact that this was all malting barley.

Mr. L'Estrange

It was £3 17s 6d in 1952.

Mr. Blaney

This is my statement. The 50/- a barrel announced by Deputy Dillon when he was Minister for Agriculture in the first Coalition Government in 1948 was for a barley crop that consisted of malting barley. It was strange — I know Deputies on the Opposition benches will not like to hear this — that it was another Minister for Agriculture, who is now no longer with us, unfortunately — the late Deputy Thomas Walsh of Kilkenny — a Fianna Fáil Minister who, in 1952, made an arrangement under which Irish growers would receive 48/- a barrel. Now, this was done in an effort to popularise the new feeding barleys because, from a cash crop growing point of view, feeding barleys began to emerge in the early 1950's. If any claim can be made about feeding barley in those early years the credit should go to the late Deputy Thomas Walsh, the then Fianna Fáil Minister for Agriculture, who, in 1952, introduced this——

Mr. L'Estrange

It was Deputy Dillon.

Mr. Blaney

It was not. You are obsessed by what Deputy James Dillon did and indeed he is obsessed himself, too. So am I, but for different reasons.

Mr. Harte

The Minister was elected to this House on the question of the price of oats.

Mr. Blaney

The price of oats did not necessarily arise. I got in without oats since then. With or without oats, I shall be returned to this House.

Mr. Harte

I hope I shall be with you.

Mr. Blaney

I am not saying a word about it at all. It could be worse. It could be somebody else and therefore I shall not say a word about it.

Mr. Harte

The Minister was thinking that it could be worse for himself.

Mr. Blaney

I brought you with me from Fine Gael.

Mr. Harte

The Minister did his damnedest to get somebody else.

Mr. Blaney

Possibly I might do something about that, too.

Acting Chairman

I think the Minister should be allowed to continue his speech.

Mr. Harte

I shall bring him with me the next time.

Acting Chairman

Would Deputy Harte please stop?

Mr. Corry

He cannot.

Acting Chairman

And Deputy Corry also.

Mr. Harte

He is giving me a bad example.

Mr. Blaney

We move on to 1954 in this barley saga. I do not jump to conclusions because it was 1954. We find again that, for the first time, a floor——

Mr. L'Estrange

On a point of order, I do not think there is anything at all in the Supplementary Estimate about grain.

Mr. Corry

Now we are getting under the hide.

Mr. Clinton

I was stopped.

Mr. Blaney

In 1954, a floor price of 40/- a barrel for the 1955 crop was, for the first time, put under the barley crop. Even though it was 1954, again it was a Fianna Fáil Minister who did it. So much for those who want to talk about what Deputy James Dillon did when he was Minister for Agriculture or about what Fine Gael or the Coalition Government did for the growing of feeding barley. They did nothing to my knowledge. The claim that they did all about it is only typical of the sort of claim they make about most things that turn out to be successful but they disclaim anything that did not turn out so well.

Deputy Donegan said the milk position is good. He went on further to say that it is nice to see Bord Bainne doing so well on the British market and selling our butter there with a new brand name and getting more for it than we got before. I shall add nothing to that. It is enough. It is what Deputy Donegan had to say on milk, butter and on the lesser subsidy we have to pay because these people have apparently been doing a good job.

Mr. Corry

Deputy Donegan is an expert on dirty milk.

Mr. Blaney

We shall leave that for another day. On 1st April, we pay another 1d for quality milk. Deputy Jones was concerned about a matter which I am sure has given much trouble to Deputies. It concerns the position where the basic herd, for the purpose of heifer grants, consists of what was on a particular farm in a datum year and the further position that arises if conacre lands are taken or a new bit of land is bought and with that bit of land, the purchaser takes over some part of the herd that would have been on that land in the datum year and then finds, after he has paid for the bit of land or taken it in conacre, that his basic herd goes up by so many cows but when he seeks heifer grants, he does not get them. I know it is difficult to get this across and at times it is very hard to understand and people do find themselves disappointed. The only thing I can say is that if it is not working in this way, if mistakes have been made and people have been done out of grants, not through that process but through misapplication of that process, I would be glad to try to have them straightened out in the Department and grants paid where appropriate.

One of the gems of the evening came from Deputy Dillon, as is usual. He was waxing eloquent about sows and pigs and pork, scrub bulls and scrub heifers but the one that tickled my fancy most and which is somewhat typical of Deputy Dillon and which I know Deputy Clinton copped also because I saw him smiling, was where he talked about pigs being ready for the factory five months after the insemination of the sow. All I can say to him is, would he please let us know where that breed is and we will put it around the country and wipe out all others? This would be the greatest thing that ever struck this country since Moses struck the rock: five months for the lot.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

A slip of the tongue. Five months from date of birth was what was intended.

Mr. Blaney

I do not mind what was intended. It is what goes on the record and that is what will be on it, unless it is changed, but Deputy Dillon would never do the like of that.

Mr. Harte

It is one thing the Minister would not do. The Minister has never been known to have done it.

Mr. Blaney

Ministers and others do it when it means correcting things as they should be but I do not send replies to Parliamentary Questions to the local press without the full reply.

Mr. Harte

No, but you usually ring up the local press officer and tell him to put it around that this has come from the Fianna Fáil cumann and let it be known that it has come from the Fianna Fáil cumann. That is what you have done.

Acting Chairman

Again, I must ask Deputy Harte to cease interrupting.

Mr. Blaney

It was I who wrote to the Fianna Fáil secretary——

Mr. Harte

You did not even let Deputy Cunningham into the secret. He knew nothing about it.

Mr. Blaney

Deputy Cunningham knew all about it.

Acting Chairman

I must ask the Minister to keep to the Supplementary Estimate and Deputy Harte not to interrupt.

Mr. Harte

I was only pointing out that the Minister was keeping Deputy Cunningham in the dark.

Acting Chairman

Keep that for Donegal.

Mr. Blaney

Deputy Murphy inspired the next onslaught by Deputy Dillon. If I wrong him he can correct me. When it was asserted by Deputy Dillon that something was as fraudulent as Deputy Haughey's hens, it seemed to emerge that Deputy Haughey no longer has the hens that laid the golden eggs and that all that glitters is not gold. The fact is that I personally know that he is still in them. This will be great news to Deputy Murphy and he should have that visit that was talked about. He still has them, unless I do not know a hen when I see one.

Acting Chairman

I do not think there is anything about hens in the Estimate.

Mr. Clinton

It is not important but the Minister's information is incorrect.

Mr. Blaney

I will have to check again. They must have got out of there so quickly that nobody saw them go.

Mr. Clinton

They are there but not his.

Mr. Harte

The price of eggs was included in the £100 dinner.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Have you the latest returns for the hens?

Mr. Blaney

I have not got that information. I knew the Deputy would be interested.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

It is £874 net for the year.

Mr. Blaney

There was some complaint, as usual, about the butter fat content of milk and the manner in which it is arrived at. I would say that this is the sort of thing that there always will be cribbing about by those who get less than they think they should get and about which there will be not one word of complaint from those who are getting a higher return than they thought they might. I am certainly not going to suggest that the present method of testing is absolutely infallible but if there is any suggestion from Deputies worth examining as to an improvement in the method of testing that would be feasible and reasonable to carry out, we will have it examined and if it proves itself there is no reason why we could not change the method. Any suggestion in that regard would be very welcome so far as I am concerned and we will have it checked and put into operation if it should appear to be desirable.

Somebody asked in regard to the fat stock temporary headage grants of last year if the British Minister for Agriculture can or did stop these. The answer to that is that he did not. He did not stop those grants but some people in the trade in Britain certainly made it known in no uncertain terms repeatedly during the months of operation of the headage grants that they did not like them.

Somebody also asked in regard to our beef support repayments from Britain how much is due. I think this was in the original brief but the figure is approximately £1 million, speaking from memory, and as to when it will be paid, I have also already said that it is likely to be practically all paid in the month of April.

There has been this complaint about brucellosis eradication, particularly in the south, where the compulsory scheme has not yet reached. The point is made that it is rather a difficult thing for individual farmers when there is an outbreak to this disease. I fully subscribe to that. I am very sympathetic towards anybody who runs into this trouble, particularly dairymen with a lot of cows. On the other hand, we have started this eradication scheme in the north-west which will follow the general lines of the TB scheme that is to all intents and purposes finished and a good job done. Unless and until we reach the south, I am afraid that in regard to this question of the individual farmer suffering hardship, this is something that he has been suffering and the fact that we have initiated a scheme in the north-west does not imply that we must step in in every case where an outbreak occurs in other areas.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Are there any regulations under which a few extreme cases that have arisen in the south could be dealt with? I know the scheme has not been extended to the south.

Mr. Blaney

I do not think so. The only thing I can say again is that if there are any extreme cases, and I have no doubt that there may be the odd one here or there, without implying any promise of any kind of being able to do anything, I would be glad to be given the information and I can tell the Deputy if there is anything we can do. There is nothing that we can do at this juncture.

Deputy Clinton made some comments about the veterinary colleges. All I can add is that not only is he unhappy about the situation but I do not think there is anybody who is happy about the situation. The expense of maintaining the two faculties is one which I do not think anybody desires but this arrangement was not wanted by the Government of the day. We did not seek such an arrangement. It was forced upon the Government of the day by the inability of most of the interested parties to agree on any proposal for a joint school. I suppose that this may be the position still, although we may have come a bit of the way since then.

Mr. Clinton

My information is that Trinity never looked for such a school.

Mr. Blaney

Better be careful about Drumcondra now.

Mr. Clinton

I have no worries.

Mr. Blaney

A question was asked as to whether or not a milk collection pilot scheme started and under way in County Waterford was really necessary, whether it had not been done by Lough Egish Creamery in Monaghan already. I want to say that this is bulk collection in bulk containers collected at the farmer's stand or yard and is an experiment which, if it works well, could well teach all of us a lesson in this matter for the future. It could be a more economical method of collection than the old system that still obtains in many parts of the south and in the country generally. It is, in our estimation, well worthwhile to pursue this experiment of this bulk or tank collection to find out if we cannot apply it to our general advantage in the future.

I do not think there is much more I have to say except that these moneys are not required merely because of bad estimating a year ago or because of deliberate underestimating for some other purpose. The necessity for them has arisen for the reasons I have given and the fact is that there is little credit due to those who say that the farmer will not get a halfpenny out of them because a great deal of it goes to the relief of rates and not to the farmer. This is the woolly thinking that the advertisement about which so much has been said was intended to combat and I have no doubt it did combat it.

I would like to thank the Deputies on the Opposition benches as well as those on my own benches who have wished me success. It may be that some of them said that with their tongues in their cheeks but I will take it in the best of good faith that they meant what they said. I hope they will not be disappointed in me and that I will have success. In so far as the immediate future is concerned, might I say that the small farmer will be my particular concern.

Mr. L'Estrange

He must not have been your concern in the past.

Mr. Blaney

Being a new Minister who has not had much opportunity of speaking out so far, I want to assure Deputies on that side of the House and on this side of the House that I am not departing from the traditional Fianna Fáil policy of working for the small farmer, of trying to make his life more bearable, of trying to make it possible for him to remain on the land of his forefathers, not only to work there but to enjoy some little pleasure in his life. So far as I can direct or redirect finances from the public purse, Deputies should not be surprised if these finances go very much to the small farmers in future.

Question: "That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration" put and declared lost.

Vote put and agreed to.

Vote reported and agreed to.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.35 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 5th April, 1967.