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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Apr 1967

Vol. 227 No. 6

Heinz-Erin Ltd. - Statement by Minister for Finance.

As I announced on Monday last, Erin Foods Ltd. are establishing a joint company with the H.J. Heinz Company of Britain to develop and market the products of Erin Foods Ltd. in the United Kingdom. The joint company will be incorporated in this country, and will be known as Heinz-Erin Ltd.

Before commenting on this development, I might, perhaps, review briefly the development to date of the food processing project of Erin Foods Ltd. As Deputies are aware, Cómhlucht Siúicre Éireann Teoranta embarked on this project in 1960 in response to the encouragement given to State-sponsored concerns in the First Programme for Economic Expansion to extend their activities to projects related to their main spheres of operation. The company's intention was to establish, within a reasonable time, a substantial self-supporting food business directed mainly towards export, and so help to expand the income and employment generating capacity of Irish agriculture. The company concentrated on the production of dehydrated foods because it seemed to them that this form of processing offered the best prospects of success.

In 1962, the Oireachtas approved of the investment of Exchequer moneys in the project, and to date £4 million has been invested by the Exchequer— £3 million by way of share capital and a further £1 million by way of loan. The total investment in the project has, however, been in the region of £8.5 million; the balance of £4.5 million beyond the Exchequer's investment has been contributed by CSET. In 1963 Erin Foods Ltd. was set up as a wholly-owned subsidiary of CSET and has concentrated on the marketing side of the business.

Thanks largely to the drive and initiative of Lt.-General Costello, the project has expanded steadily over the past few years and at present gives employment, both in its own and associated plants, to some 1,400 persons. In 1965-66 wages and salaries paid amounted to over £800,000 while a further £340,000 was paid to growers of vegetables. Sales in that year totalled £2 million. In addition to the plants at Carlow, Mallow, Thurles and Tuam owned by CSET and Erin Foods Ltd., vegetable processing plants have been established on a co-operative basis in association with the main venture at Midleton, Skibbereen and Glencolumbkille.

The difficulties and costs involved in the development of the project have been substantially greater than had been foreseen initially, due in large measure to the intense competition in the British market. The total losses up to 30th April, 1966, amounted to almost £5 million including approximately £1 million representing research and development expenditure which has been capitalised. The loss for the year 1966/67 is estimated at £1.3 million on sales of about £2.6 million.

The Government decided in 1965 that the time was appropriate for a full and objective re-assessment of the position and prospects of the project. Cómhlucht Siúicre Éireann Teoranta and Erin Foods Limited accordingly engaged Arthur D. Little, Inc., international management consultants, to carry out this re-assessment. The consultants' report was received early in 1966 and was later published. It put forward a number of alternative courses of action that might be followed. These ranged from discontinuing the food project to an all out attack on the UK market backed by a wider range of products than at present. This latter alternative would involve a further investment of £15 million and further losses of £5 million before the concern would reach the profit-making stage in 1973.

In addition to recommending alternative courses of action, the A.D. Little report contained a number of suggestions designed to improve the productive and marketing efficiency of the project. One of these was that Erin Foods should not be confined to marketing but should extend its responsibilities to all aspects of the food project. The Government accepted this recommendation and full effect has been given to it.

As regards the various alternative courses of action suggested by the consultants, the Government took into account the fact that Erin Foods was still in the process of testing its capacity to exploit the UK market and expand its present range of products. It was considered premature, therefore, to come to a firm decision on the alternative which should be adopted and it was decided to defer a decision until the results of the current year became available. This would also enable the views of the newly reconstituted board on the developing situation to be taken into account.

One of the possibilities mentioned in the A.D. Little report was a joint venture partnership with a marketing oriented firm already having an established position in the UK. This was not a new suggestion. Lt.-General Costello had earlier suggested it as a possibility. The Government had already approved it in principle as they considered it to be the most feasible and economical way of achieving a speedy advance in export markets. Cómhlucht Siúicre Éireann Teoranta and Erin Foods Ltd. had explored the possibilities of a joint venture on a number of occasions. On receipt of the A.D. Little report, Erin Foods reviewed these earlier approaches and made a fresh assessment of the possibilities open to it in this field. They eventually came down in favour of a link with the H.J. Heinz Company which is one of the leading firms in the food industry in the UK with a sales force probably larger than that of any other comparable firm in the UK market.

It is important to be clear what the Erin Foods/Heinz agreement covers and what it does not cover. It is not, for example, a merger of the two organisations. Each company will retain its separate identity. The essence of the agreement is that a joint company will be formed to promote and develop the sales of Erin products abroad. Erin Foods will sell its products to this joint company, at a price to be agreed. Heinz will do the actual selling in the British market. The joint company will promote and advertise the products sold through it. In brief, therefore, there will be three functions to be discharged by three separate companies with Erin Foods producing. Heinz-Erin marketing, promoting and advertising, and the H.J. Heinz Company doing the actual selling. I should emphasise that this position will not be reached overnight. Initially the joint venture will not cover sales of all Erin products in the British market. During an interim period, which it is hoped will not last more than a year or so, the joint venture will confine itself to sales in the catering market. During this period the details of a full-scale attack on the British market will be worked out. It is intended that after this interim stage the joint company will cover all types of markets in the UK apart from bulk sales which will continue to be serviced direct by Erin Foods.

An important and indeed essential feature of the arrangement from the Irish viewpoint is that it preserves the identity of Erin Foods in the UK market. This will be done in two ways. Firstly, all products sold through the joint company will contain an indication that they have been produced by Erin Foods for distribution by Heinz-Erin. Secondly, all catering products and vegetable retail packs will be marketed under the Erin Foods label, though recipe retail products will bear the Heinz label.

What recipe retail products?

Made-up dishes. When account is taken of the expected increases in sales of different types of products and in different kinds of markets, it is estimated that up to two-thirds of the products sold through the joint company will bear the Erin label.

The joint company will be financed equally by Erin Foods and the H.J. Heinz company. The capital required will be mainly working capital as the joint company will not, of course, be responsible for production. Profits or losses made by the joint company will also be shared equally by the two partners. Each partner will have equal representation on the board and there will be an outside chairman to be agreed upon by the parent companies.

It is the view of Erin Foods, a view with which I fully agree, that a link with the H.J. Heinz company of the type envisaged is a better proposal than any other alternative which is effectively open to them. While accurate forecasting in this market is difficult, Erin Foods are satisfied that the arrangement will lead to a substantial increase in sales and holds out good prospects of converting present losses into a modest profit after approximately five years of full operation. A joint marketing arrangement with a company of the status and market coverage of the H.J. Heinz company should enable Erin Foods to capture a large part of the growing British market at significantly lower cost than if it tried to go it alone. While the proposed arrangement cannot fully be identified with any one of the specific alternatives mentioned by A.D. Little, it should lead to increased export sales not appreciably lower than those indicated by any of the alternatives mentioned by the consultants, but at a far lesser cost.

The increased sales which will be possible under this arangement will be welcomed both by the farmers who will benefit from the greater and more assured market for their products and by the workers for whom employment is provided in the food factories. The arrangement will also be welcome to the country as a whole as holding out prospects of securing a return on the large national investment involved and of making a welcome contribution to exports.

I would like to emphasise, however, that the agreement holds out no automatic promise that all these benefits will be secured. This is a commercial arrangement between two commercial companies. Whether or not it will be successful depends on the commercial acumen of the parties concerned — the English and Irish firms and what I might call their offspring, the joint venture.

As far as this country is concerned, perhaps the best service we can render the food project at this stage is to recognise the commercial nature of the undertaking and give it a reasonable opportunity to achieve the results we are hoping for.

It is natural that each party in approaching an arrangement such as this should consider it from the standpoint of its own interests. I believe that the H.J. Heinz company consider the arrangement to be advantageous from their point of view. As far as Erin Foods are concerned, I have no hesitation in welcoming and approving the arrangement as being in the best interests of the company and as a definite step forward in the largescale marketing of Irish foodstuffs in the UK.

In conclusion, I should like to commend the directors and officials of Cómhlucht Siúicre Éireann Teoranta and Erin Foods Ltd. for the progressive manner in which they have undertaken these negotiations and brought them to such a successful conclusion.

The leaders of the Parties will be allowed to comment on the statement.

The arrangement which, as the Minister has mentioned, was mentioned in the Press yesterday, appears to be the best of a number of recommendations which were made in the Arthur D. Little report. Although I note from the Minister's statement that the arrangement does not conform precisely to any specific recommendation, it would appear from reading it that it conforms most closely to the alternative No. 4, which was suggested there.

There are certain matters on which I should like some further information. Initially, when this project was undertaken, there was general recognition that the idea and objective behind it was a sound one in that it would provide a market for farmers which could be exploited and developed by the Sugar Company and the ultimate establishment of the subsidiary Erin Foods. However, I think sufficient attention was not paid at the time to the problems involved in marketeing and the decision now taken is in line with a precedent which was adopted in the case of the wallboard factory in Athy. Many years ago, when we were in government, that company had got into difficulties and Bowaters were approached and made an arrangement which has since worked satisfactorily from the point of view of the company concerned.

On this occasion the marketing arrangement and sales end of it appear to be the responsibility of the Heinz company. There are, however, certain matters that have evolved as a result of this whole undertaking which certainly highlight the need for a review on a regular basis of the activities of State and semi-State companies. That review would not be for the purpose of examining or querying or inquiring into day-to-day activities but for the purpose of enabling Deputies and the public to see how public money is being spent. It is recognised that some of the information which would be of a confidential, commercial nature or which might involve information being given to competitors could not be disclosed generally but at least there would be the recognition by the public that an established committee representing all Parties had available to it facts and figures on which decisions were taken and — I suppose questions will not arise while concerns are making progress — in the event of losses, that those elected by the people would have information available to them which enabled a committee of this sort to decide whether the matter should be brought before the Dáil or whether further public discussion should be focussed on it.

The losses in this case highlight once again the need for that kind of review. It is quite significant that the losses on sales of about £2.6 million amounted to £1.3 million. I know that this is a matter that gave the Sugar Company and the people involved with it very considerable concern.

The Minister did not mention what the capital of the proposed new company would be. He mentioned that the capital would be provided on a 50-50 basis — one-half by H.J. Heinz and one-half by Erin Foods. I should like to know what the total capital is and what steps will be taken to make future capital available.

This is hardly the occasion to initiate a full discussion on this matter but at an early date, if not in his comments in reply, the Minister might advert to the choices laid down by Arthur D. Little and referred to at page 43 of the report on the Irish Sugar-Erin Foods project where it is said:

It is essential to the efficient planning of activities and commitments for the Irish Sugar-Erin Foods project that the Government's position on objectives to be served, financial support and acceptable range of activities, investments and risks be formulated and stated to the boards of Irish Sugar and Erin Foods as soon as possible.

Finally, I should like to know from the Minister will the appointment of the directors from Erin Foods be made by Erin Foods to this joint board or be made by the Government as independent appointments and if it is proposed to indicate generally either to the Sugar Company or to the new company what decisions have been taken on foot of the recommendations made in this report and the alternatives laid before the company and before the Government by the consultants.

Deputy James Tully rose.

Is the Deputy speaking for the Party?

Yes. I will be very brief. We welcome the steps which have been taken to try to keep this very important industry at least partly under Irish control. It is definitely a better way of dealing with it than allowing it to pass entirely into the hands of some foreign concern, as so many of them have. It lends point to a motion discussed in this House some time ago as to whether or not there should be better control over the finances of semi-State and State supported companies and whether or not information in relation to these finances should be available to this House. It seems that a colossal sum of money has been spent and that more would have been lost but for the fact that something happened. Great credit is due to the person whose resignation brought this matter to a head. I refer to Lt.-General M.J. Costello. I hope the Minister for Finance will ensure, as I am sure he will, that the Irish interest will be protected in this type of merger, which is what I think it is, even though the Minister does not describe it as such.

That this factory uses the produce of the land is something very important. Again and again in this House I have said that the only industry which has a 100 per cent chance of success is the one based on the produce of the land. Irish agriculture should be able to provide the raw materials for more industries of this kind. It would be a tragedy if this type of industry had to close down completely. One thing must be remembered. This industry cannot be a success unless there is co-operation all round. There must be full co-operation between the Government, the companies concerned and the producers. We should not be deterred by the fact that we feel we are losing face one way or the other from doing our best to ensure that this industry will receive the fullest co-operation from everybody. Nobody will think less of the Government if they have to step down on occasion in order to meet the views of the primary producers.

The amount of money lost has been very high. Like Deputy Cosgrave, I would be interested to know what amount of money is actually involved in this new organisation. The Minister should be able to give us that information. I would be also interested to know in what way the directors are to be appointed. Is there any way of shortening the period during which the industry will not even be breaking even? I am rather surprised that it will be five years before it can even break even. Does that mean it will be losing money for the next 4½ years? Surely there should be some other way? The Government can be assured that every co-operation will be afforded to them to make a success of this.

This is the one thing that can take the country out of the difficulties in which it is. We wish the project well and hope that with full co-operation, it will be successful. We hope that after a short time control will not slip away from the Irish interest and that eventually we will find "Erin Foods" written in small letters somewhere on the cans and that Heinz will be able to control the entire industry. I know they are an international concern with enormous distribution possibilities. For that reason it seems the logical thing to get connected with them. I think the people who have done this have done a good job. It is rather a pity that this was not something arranged by the Government, who could say they brought these two organisations together and made a success of the merger. I would ask the Government to let this House know at once if things go wrong — I hope they will not — and not five years afterwards.

May I ask a question?

I cannot allow any interference with the order.

It is just a question.

If I allowed one, I would have to allow all.

I understand this cannot be a debate. I want to explain that my purpose in making this statement today was to give the Dáil an opportunity of hearing of this matter firsthand on the first available opportunity that presented itself. We are criticised from time to time for making announcements of this nature outside the House.

We got it secondhand, anyway.

You got it in this House at the earliest possible moment.

The newspapers got it first.

That was inevitable in the circumstances. There was nothing I could do about that. This is my first full statement on the project. It is being made here in the House.

With regard to the specific questions raised by Deputy Cosgrave and Deputy Tully, concerning the capital of the joint venture, Heinz-Erin Ltd., the capital required will be entirely working capital. It will be simply the capital required to promote, advertise and market the goods, so that it will not be of a particularly significant nature. I cannot put it more precisely than that at this stage. It is certainly nothing we will have to come back to the Dáil about. Extra working capital for this joint venture will be provided, as I explained, half by Heinz and half by Erin Foods-Cómhlucht Siúicre Éireann Teoranta. The half to be put up by the Erin Foods-Cómhlucht Siúicre Éireann Teoranta side of the partnership will be available from their existing resources.

With regard to the directors, the idea is that the Heinz organisation should nominate three directors of theirs and Erin Foods-Cómhlucht Siúicre Éireann Teoranta should nominate three from their side. Those three directors will be actually directors of the two existing organisations. An outside chairman will be appointed who will be Irish and who will be agreed by the two partners in the venture.

With regard to the A.D. Little Report and the various alternatives set out therein, I would certainly visualise we would be having a full and frank discussion here in the House on the situation at some stage, but I do not think the time is ripe as yet for such a full-dress debate. As I have already announced, we are anxious to await some further developments in the organisation before coming down finally and conclusively in favour of any particular recommendation in the A.D. Little report.

In regard to Deputy Tully's question about co-operation, Government control and so on, I want to assure him there is the fullest possible co-operation between all the parties concerned in this venture. As far as the Government are concerned, we were fully informed at every stage of these negotiations and approved of them at every stage. In fact, they involved my going to London to sit in on the final discussions. It can be said therefore that this project is very much a joint co-operative product of the enterprise and initiative of the directors and officials of the two companies, the Irish Sugar Company and Erin Foods Ltd., and of my Department as well. There is no question of Erin Foods becoming in any way less significant as a result of this merger, this agreement.

I want to be quite specific that it is not a merger. It is an agreement to do something in common but the companies will retain their separate identities. We anticipate that when the operation is fully under way, about 75 per cent of the sales by the Heinz-Erin company will carry the full Erin Foods label and the remainder will carry the intimation that they have been made by Erin Foods for the Heinz-Erin company. With regard to Deputy Tully's advertence to the fundamental importance of the Erin Food project, I wish to say that the Government fully share that view. We are determined that this project will succeed and we will spare no effort to ensure that it does. From the Government's side, it will get all the assistance we can make available to it within the limits of our resources.

The Heinz company will be doing all the selling in the United Kingdom. To that extent the Erin Foods sales organisation will be considerably reduced in the United Kingdom.

At what price will Erin Foods sell their products to the Heinz company?

That will have to be worked out. The idea is that the retail sales price will be determined by agreement and that a fixed margin will be made available to the Heinz-Erin company.

Can the Minister say when the House will get an opportunity of discussing this matter in full?

There can be no further discussion at the moment.

Will the Minister say when we can have a full discussion?

A full discussion would be in order at some stage in the not too distant future.

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