I should like to express my appreciation of the manner in which the Bill has been approached by Deputy O'Higgins and also by Deputy Dunne, speaking on behalf of his Party. In my opinion, this is a most desirable and necessary piece of legislation. I cannot subscribe to the observations of Deputy Dunne that the time of the Dáil should not be devoted to the consideration of an important Bill of this kind. It may be desirable to have a Committee of the House deal with legislation of a complex and difficult character, but a Bill of this kind can be more appropriately dealt with in the House where every Deputy has an opportunity of expressing his views.
This legislation concerns a small section of the community, but one that renders to the general public an important and necessary service. The auctioneer and estate agent performs a very necessary function in this country. Indeed, those associated with real estate business throughout the world perform a very necessary service. At present efforts are being made in practically every country to raise the standard of efficiency, to give the general public a better service and more enlightened assistance and guidance in regard to the property market and, what is of particular importance in this country at present, in regard to valuations.
This Bill is a step in the right direction. We can safely assume it is the first instalment of what we hope will be more comprehensive legislation. The Bill has two very important provisions. First, it proposes to increase from £2,000 to £5,000 the deposit which a licensed auctioneer is required to lodge with the High Court and, secondly, it requires an auctioneer to keep clients' money in a special banking account and to keep records of such moneys and his dealings in them. These provisions are not alone necessary but most desirable. Under the existing law, an auctioneer is required to enter into a bond of £2,000 in order to obtain his licence from the Department of Justice. This sum of £2,000 was fixed in 1947. It is now 1967 and there is a considerable difference between the value of the £ today and the value of the £ in 1947. The fact that the deposit has been increased from £2,000 to £5,000 will be no more of a hardship today than the £2,000 bond was in 1947. I feel that the Minister and his Department were most considerate of the smaller auctioneers in rural Ireland and elsewhere for whom it might have been a hardship to increase the bond to £5,000. I do not think this is going to create any difficulty whatever for anybody in the auctioneering business in this country, but it is going to help their clients considerably.
Further, this will be a means of helping to bring into the auctioneering business a type of person more fitted for it. I want to refer briefly to the importance of having in the auctioneering profession the best and most highly qualified people to deal with this specialised work. At present anyone can go into the District Court and obtain an auctioneer's licence. If he enters into the bond for £2,000 and makes his application, he will be granted his licence, no matter what other profession or business he may have in addition. Those of us in the real estate business and public representatives generally have had our attention drawn to the fact that auctioneers' licences can be obtained too freely.
There are cases in which people apply to the District Court and are granted licences for the purpose of selling a single property. An auctioneer's licence was granted to an applicant who then proceeded to sell his own farm by public auction, collected his commission, and that was the end of his business; he did not proceed any further as an auctioneer. Auctioneers' licences have been granted to people who are not fully qualified or capable of giving to the general public the specialised service expected of an auctioneer and valuer.
This has been the cause of a considerable amount of anxiety to the Auctioneers and Estate Agents Association. They have devoted all their energies since 1923, with the very able assistance, guidance and wise counsel of the secretary of that Association, Mr. Michael H. Gray, to genuine efforts to raise the standard of the auctioneers' profession in Ireland. The association which represents auctioneers on both sides of the Border has been giving serious consideration to these matters. They approached the Minister for Justice many times with a view to the passing of legislation to tighten up the granting of auctioneers' licences so that they would not be available to every Tom, Dick and Harry.
A person may not practise the engineering profession unless he has his degrees and qualifications. To practise as a solicitor, one must have the appropriate qualifications. The auctioneers' profession is rendering to the people of this country a service equal to, if not more important in many respects, to that of the legal, engineering or any other profession.
The raising of the bond from £2,000 to £5,000 will be a help to the profession. To become a good auctioneer and valuer takes many years of study and experience. On one occasion when I asked a colleague of very long standing in the auctioneers' profession what I would say in a certain valuation report I was drawing up, the advice he gave me was that it takes many long years of hard work and careful study and examination of property and prices in order to express an opinion as a valuer.
I do not advocate for one moment that the auctioneering profession should be a closed shop, nor is that the aim of the Irish Auctioneers and Estate Agents Association. Far from it. The Minister knows that is not the case. We are anxious to raise the standard of the profession to the highest possible degree. Specialist services are being called for now from those engaged in the real estate business. We of the auctioneering profession can see that very clearly from our association with the Federation of International Real Estate Agents when we visit Paris, Copenhagen, Tokyo, England and elsewhere. This has brought home to us that it is of the utmost importance that we should have the best and most highly qualified people in this profession.
I have already pointed out that in order to obtain a licence to practise as an auctioneer, all one has to do at the moment is to present oneself in court, get an insurance company to cover one's bond to the extent of £2,000, which can be readily available, without any regard by the court to fitness, suitability or qualifications. In most countries there is some regard to suitability, fitness, qualifications and financial standing. In New Zealand, the Real Estate Agents Bill, 1963, has a very important section, section 10. I understand that the secretary of the Irish Auctioneers and Estate Agents Association has already sent the Minister a copy of the New Zealand Bill.
I want to direct the attention of the House to section 10 of that Bill which deals with the granting of licences to persons to act as auctioneers and estate agents. It requires:
The magistrate to require evidence as to character, fitness and financial position.
It is most desirable, before granting a licence to any citizen — may I say that, even though they may have been very few, licences have been granted to some undesirable citizens but the Minister will agree with me that, on the whole, the number has been small; Deputy Dunne referred to that fact — there should be evidence as to character, fitness and financial standing. With a few exceptions, the auctioneering profession here is of a very high standard of integrity and honesty. We are all pleased at that. If there have been cases of dishonest transactions or fraud, those dishonest transactions or fraud have not been based on intent to defraud. They have occurred because licences have been given to people who should never have got them. Fraud has occurred mainly because of a muddling-up of auctioneers' accounts. The provision in this Bill in that regard will help considerably. In future accounts must be kept separate. I was speaking on one occasion to the secretary of the auctioneers' association. I asked him: "Mr. Gray, is it possible that there are auctioneers who do not keep separate accounts and who are sufficiently foolish to put their clients' money with their own money?" The reply I got was that it was amazing the number of auctioneers who, because of lack of thought and lack of a proper sense of responsibility to themselves, their families and the public generally, put their clients' money with their own personal banking accounts.
I cannot understand how any businessman handling clients' money could deposit that money with his own because, the moment he does so, he is facing disaster. Auctioneers and valuers hold their clients' money in trust. They have no claim upon it, no authority to use it, no authority to trade with it. They have no authority beyond holding it in trust. I am sure this extraordinary practice does not occur in the case of firms and I cannot understand how any man could dream of putting his clients' money with his own personal account. The provision in this Bill requires an auctioneer in future to keep clients' money in a special banking account and to keep records of that money. That is very desirable for the auctioneer himself and most desirable from the point of view of the general public. These two main provisions in the Bill meet with the full approval and with the entire agreement of all responsible people engaged in auctioneering and real estate business in this country.
I referred to evidence of character, fitness and financial position of an applicant anxious to start business as an auctioneer. Anyone entering the auctioneering business has to handle tens of thousands of pounds of other people's money and surely it is vitally important that such a person should be in a fit financial position to be the custodian, if only in trust, of other people's money. Licences, however, have been granted to people who were not in a financial position to conduct a satisfactory auctioneering business and the moment large sums fell into their hands by way of deposit they were tempted. We have known of cases in which deposits were made in trust with an auctioneer and the auctioneer traded with one deposit in the hope that another deposit would come in later. That way of conducting business spells disaster.
These provisions will have the effect of raising the standard of the auctioneering profession. The Bill is a step in the right direction and it is one which is welcomed by the profession. In the long run, it is the general public who will benefit from this to the greatest extent. I have already pointed out how easy it is to obtain a licence. One can never have a really good professional body unless those engaged in the profession are dedicated to their business. There are many good auctioneers, dependable and reliable, who have other callings. There are publicans who engage in auctioneering. There are grocers and undertakers who do likewise. People in many walks of life carry on auctioneering as well. But the profession is really constituted of dedicated men who are engaged fulltime in their profession and who carry on no other business or commercial operations. That is the only way in which the best possible service will be given to the general public.
Valuation is an important facet in the auctioneering profession and it is vitally important that no unqualified person should express an opinion on valuation because an ill-considered or ill-founded opinion may involve a client in considerable financial loss. The same is true of the buying and selling market. One does not go to a blacksmith to have a tooth pulled; one does not go to a painter to have shoes and boots repaired; one does not go to an engineer for medical advice: one goes to a doctor. It is the same in the auctioneering business and the buying and selling trade. One goes to the man who is trained, whose business it is to know the extent of the buying and selling market, who has studied the value and sale of land, and who has studied the value and sale of property, private property and business and other premises.
Firms engaged fulltime in the auctioneering business have specialists in their employment, specialists in auctioneering and in the buying and selling of land, house property, rents, and so on. There should be a greater degree of control over the issue of licences to people to act in such a capacity. The Minister will readily agree with me that it is quite wrong to grant a licence to anyone to enter into any profession unless he is qualified for that profession as it may mean substantial financial losses for clients who engage the services of such unqualified persons.
I want to direct attention to how loose our laws are and how firm and rigid the laws are in other countries with regard to entry into the real estate business. I quote section 10 of the New Zealand Real Estate Agents Act, 1963:
Magistrates to require evidence as to character, fitness and financial position—(1) Before granting an application for a licence to carry on business as a real estate agent, the Magistrate shall require the production of sufficient evidence to satisfy him that the character, fitness, and financial position of the applicant are such that he is, in the opinion of the Magistrate, having regard to the interests of the public, a proper person to carry on business as a real estate agent.
(2) Where application for a licence is made by a person carrying on or proposing to carry on business as a real estate agent in partnership with any other person, the Magistrate shall require the production of evidence as to the character, fitness, and financial position of each of the partners.
When in New Zealand a limited company desires to enter into the real estate business, the courts, through the magistrate, will require each director of that company, individually — not one in charge but each of them — to come forward and satisfy the court that he is of excellent character, that he qualifies as to fitness and that his financial position is sound and secure. In the case of directors, all the directors must appear and satisfy the court. In the case of partnership, both or all partners must, in order to comply with the law in New Zealand, satisfy the court as to character, fitness and financial position.
May I ask the Minister who has been extremely reasonable in his attitude to all the approaches that have been made — and may I express the grateful thanks of the auctioneering profession for his lively interest and the manner in which he has received the various deputations and representations put forward by the association — to consider seriously the question of character, fitness and financial position in regard to the granting of auctioneers' licences? I would strongly recommend section 10 of the New Zealand Real Estate Act, 1963 to him. I am sure he already has it because the secretary of the Irish Auctioneers and Estate Agents Association sent him a copy. If our District Courts were to have a qualification, before the granting of a licence, on character, fitness and financial position it would, I think, on this question of the issue of licences to everyone who wants them, most certainly ease the whole situation.
To give the Minister and the House an idea of the serious efforts and attempts that have been made to raise the standard of the auctioneering profession, I want it to go on record that at the present time and for some years past serious efforts have been made to raise the professional status of our auctioneers. I should like to pay very special tribute to the work, the endless energy and tireless long hours of work which a number of past presidents of the association have put into this important work. I refer to Mr. Frank W, Meldon, Mr. Raymond D. Corish of Wexford and Mr. Liam Maher of Roscrea. Nobody will be more pleased, I am sure, than the Minister to hear that, in so far as the Irish Auctioneers and Estate Agents Association are concerned, after 1970 no person will be admitted to the association unless he satisfies the association that he complies fully with all the requirements laid down as proper standards for an auctioneer and estate agent.
The Minister is aware that the College of Commerce in Rathmines and the auctioneers' association are at present conducting courses for young men and, I am happy and glad to say, for ladies who wish to participate. Those courses are very essential for the profession. The association has already issued the examination curriculum and I am sure the Minister has already seen a copy of it. By 1970, those who are seeking admission to the association will require to have a knowledge of book-keeping, estate accounting, law of property, law of contract and tort and local government. They will also require to have a knowledge of the elements of building construction, elementary surveying, the elements of economics and the law of landlord and tenant. In addition, they must have a knowledge of the law of planning and compensation, the principles of valuation, construction and maintenance of buildings, chattel auctions, inventories and furnished lettings.
It is the aim of the association that everyone who is engaged in the auctioneering profession will be qualified in these subjects. To help those who cannot attend the courses at the College of Commerce, correspondence courses are being made available and those who avail of them will certainly, by hard work and careful study, give a very good account of themselves.
In addition to the correspondence courses, a number of seminars are to be organised a few times a year at which very practical, useful and valuable work will be undertaken, with, of course, the full support and co-operation of everybody who is anxious to raise the standard of the profession. The Minister agrees most readily that if there is any profession in Ireland today hard at work putting their own house in order it is the auctioneering profession; if there is any profession which has given an excellent account of its hard endeavours in that direction, it is the auctioneering profession. I have met some students who have participated in these courses and I am glad to say they will be a credit to their profession, to their association and will render an excellent service to the general public of this country. That is what we want.
The Minister will again agree we are living in competitive times, in a new and modern world in which competition is keener than ever before, in which we can even now see that the day of the ordinary unskilled worker is finished in this country. We are living in an age when he requires education, training and qualifications to fit him for his own job of work. So it is that in relation to the real estate and auctioneering business the time has now come — again because of world changes and the keenness of competition, for which education is essential — when these courses are necessary to ensure that we have the best and most highly qualified people in the profession. To those large firms in auctioneering — there are quite a number of them, very progressive — I should like to avail of this opportunity of expressing my thanks for facilitating the younger members of their staffs to participate in these courses. If there are any auctioneering firms who, as yet, do not realise the value of these courses, I hope that in the interests of the younger members of their staffs and of those who are in the auctioneering profession, the members of whose families will follow them in the profession, apart from the home training, although I most readily agree there is nothing better, they too will avail of them. I am sure that by the early 1970s those entering the profession will have a very high degree of qualification.
May I repeat there is no intent whatever to make the profession a closed shop? I want to assure the Minister that what we seek is to attract into the profession the best and most highly qualified personnel. The qualification for these courses — as has been laid down — is that candidates must not be less than 18 years of age on the date of the examination, except in exceptional circumstances. Candidates must satisfy the secretary of the association that their education is leaving certificate standard, with a pass in at least five subjects, including mathematics and English, or an equivalent examination; and, in exceptional circumstances, candidates over the age of 25 years, with a minimum of four years' experience and whose educational qualifications are not at this level, will be given special consideration. Serious efforts of this kind to ensure the high standard of the profession are very necessary and I am sure the Minister and his Department appreciate that, whilst they are doing their part in introducing this desirable and helpful Bill, the auctioneers themselves are doing their part in educating, to the highest possible standards, those entering the profession.
This Bill is one which has been more or less asked for by the association of auctioneers. It is true to say we have not got everything we asked for but the Minister has met us very reasonably and favourably. I hope this is not the end of legislation for auctioneers because I am sure, by the early 1970s, the Minister may see fit — when there is clear evidence of the results of these educational courses — to grant, by legislation, registration to Irish auctioneers.
I wish to thank the Minister for having acted on the representations made to him in respect of the matters involved in section 13 of the Bill. I refer to page 3 of the explanatory memorandum on the Bill which states:
This proposes that the provisions relating to the keeping of clients' moneys in a special client account, and the other provisions connected with those provisions, will not apply to the auctioning in a public market of fruit, vegetables or other primary products (apart from livestock) of agriculture or horticulture.
When representations were made to the Minister on the difficulties of complying with these provisions, particularly where they concerned auctioneers engaged in the fruit and vegetable marketing business, the Minister acted on them and as I have shown, the provisions do not apply to such auctioneers. The Minister therefore met the profession's request reasonably and on behalf of all those engaged in the fruit and vegetable marketing business, I wish to express thanks.
Again, I express wholeheartedly to the Minister the best thanks of the auctioneers' profession for the manner in which he has received us on many occasions. He has spent many long hours with us, and with great patience examined the proposals laid before him. I should like to think that this Bill is the result of these prolonged discussions.
When I speak of co-operation between the auctioneers' profession, other professions and the Department of Justice, I feel I should pay a tribute to the secretary of the auctioneers association of long standing, Mr. Gray, for the manner in which he encouraged such widespread co-operation. He has always been an example of devotion to duty and the results of the co-operation he has encouraged between the auctioneers' profession, other professions in the country and the Department of Justice are to be seen. Particularly, very happy relations exist between the Department of Justice and the auctioneers' profession from which many desirable results have flowed.
I wish again to assure the Minister that we are satisfied with the Bill. We hope it will be the means of raising the standards and improving the services rendered so efficiently heretofore by the auctioneers of this country. We can give a valuable service and we have been giving such a service. I was pleased to hear Deputy Dunne pay a tribute to the standard of integrity of Irish auctioneers. They have been giving a reliable, dependable, honest service.
It may be no harm for me to comment that now that we have town planning legislation in operation, on many occasions local authorities and Government Departments will be seeking the advice of experts in valuation matters. I draw the Minister's attention to the highly qualified service available through the many trained valuers we have in the country and I suggest that the advice of these valuers should be called on by the Government and by local authorities on all occasions. I appreciate that the appointment of valuers is not a function of the Minister for Justice but the Minister may use his good offices with the Minister for Local Government, the Minister for Health, the Minister for Finance and other Ministers who may be concerned, to have the skill of our valuers availed of on all occasions when such expert advice is needed. I may deal with that more fully in another way on another occasion but I should like to point out now that we have a highly specialised corps of valuers in the country whose training has included many years of experience. I suggest that when public bodies need advice in this specialised field, it is to these valuers they will go and not to some other profession.
I again thank the Minister for introducing this measure which I commend to the House. I wish to assure him again that the auctioneers will do their part in no small way to maintain and to improve the efficiency of the service they give to the country and on which so many people depend. We realise it is only the best who should be engaged in this profession and the Bill, together with the steps being taken by the auctioneers themselves, will help to achieve this.