Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 27 Apr 1967

Vol. 228 No. 3

Auctioneers and House Agents Bill, 1966 [Seanad]: Report and Final Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be received for final consideration."

Minister for Justice (Mr. B. Lenihan)

On Committee Stage, Deputy M.J. O'Higgins and Deputy O.J. Flanagan raised certain questions which I assured the House I would look into between then and Report Stage.

First of all, Deputy O'Higgins suggested that in section 1 (4), line 39, the expression "purchase or renting" should read "purchase, sale or renting". I have looked into this and I find it is unnecessary. The drafting relates to a transaction between auctioneer and purchaser. Therefore, "purchase or renting" in fact covers everything. It might be misleading to add "sale" when it would mean nothing.

The second point raised was the meaning of the word "deposit", particularly in relation to a situation where a full payment was put down. I think it was Deputy O'Higgins who raised the point whether or not that could be termed a deposit. The meaning of "deposit" covers a full as well as a part payment. Popular usage equates "deposit" with part-payment because it almost always is only a part-payment but "deposit" from the dictionary point of view covers money put down whether in part or in full. Therefore, "deposit" covers the situation mentioned by Deputy O'Higgins where all and not just part of the money might be lodged with the auctioneer.

Another point raised concerned the word "client". I have looked into whether or not there should be a definition of "client". I think it is wiser not to have a definition. There is a clear meaning of the word "client", in the sense we are using it, that is, a person employing the services of a professional man, in this case an auctioneer. That is the plain meaning of "client". There is no ambiguity about it. We might be creating an awkward situation for ourselves by defining "client" where it has a plain, ordinary and well-established meaning.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Any person who seeks a service is a client.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Yes; that is the well-established popular usage. I think we would be unwise to seek to define it in the Bill. Those are the only points which were raised and I am satisfied that the Bill, as drafted, adequately covers those points.

Question put and agreed to.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass".

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

This Bill is certainly a step in the right direction, first, so far as the general public are concerned, and secondly, so far as the auctioneering profession are concerned. I should like to take this opportunity of expressing and placing on record the thanks of the profession to the Minister for Justice and his Department for the helpful manner in which they have approached the terms of this Bill.

I also feel that Deputy M.J. O'Higgins has been extremely helpful, and the profession would like to express to him their profound thanks for the interest he has displayed in this matter. This Bill has got what I consider to be a reasonable hearing and discussion in this House. The Minister has certainly met all the points raised by the profession in consideration of this Bill. The main reason the profession were anxious to have legislation of this kind coming before the House and included in our Statute Book is that they were very anxious that steps should be taken to protect the general public against persons who might not discharge their duties in the manner one would expect from a member of the profession.

The main object of the Bill is to increase from £2,000 to £5,000 the deposit which a licensed auctioneer is required to keep in the High Court. This is most certainly a step in the right direction because it will ensure that when it comes to the granting of such licences by the District Court, a person who is a holder of such a licence will be bonded for the sum of £5,000. The profession were anxious that the Minister might consider a sum of £10,000, but on reconsideration, it was felt that this might be a hardship on the smaller men. I should like to say that there is not now, and never has been any intention of making the auctioneering profession a closed shop.

The auctioneering profession have been endeavouring for many years past to raise their standards and their status. We felt that since we are called upon to render to the community a very important service in buying and selling land, houses, factory buildings, in lettings of grazing, meadowings and conacring of land, the general public should have the best, specialised, fully qualified and trained personnel dealing with this very important business. For that reason the profession asked to have the deposit increased. After some discussion between the profession and the Minister the sum of £5,000 was agreed. That is a reasonable sum, indeed, having regard to the fact that £2,000——

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not in the Bill.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I just wanted to refer briefly to the fact that since £2,000 was fixed in 1947, £5,000 cannot be described as unreasonable. The keeping of separate clients' accounts is most desirable. As I said on another Stage of the Bill, it is only right for the protection of the public that those in the auctioneering profession should be called upon—and I am glad that this will be the law in the course of the next month, I should imagine—to keep separate clients' accounts.

I do not know if the Minister has read the Estates Bill which was ordered to be printed by the House of Commons on 8th December, 1965. If he has not had an opportunity of studying the terms of the Bill, I should like to direct his attention to the section dealing with terminations, qualifications, certificates of registration, codes of conduct and keeping of accounts.

I trust that this legislation is an instalment of more comprehensive legislation which we hope the Government will see fit to bring in early in the 1970s, and that he who wishes to become a member of the auctioneers' association must have passed the necessary qualifying examination, must have completed a course in the colleges that provide these courses, and if he is unable to do so, must have participated in correspondence courses which the association are now sponsoring.

The Minister will agree that the auctioneering profession are devoting all their energies towards improving their standards and getting the best qualified people into it in order to give the public the benefit of their experience, their wise counsel and advice. For that reason I am glad the Bill has had the goodwill and approval of all Parties in the House. I hope that in the early 1970s, if the Minister sees fit to review the situation, he will be able to give us registration. I feel that by 1970 the auctioneers will have their own house in order. I am sure that by that time we will be in a position to ask for most sympathetic consideration on the part of the Government towards registration. I am sure the Minister will be pleased to give an undertaking that he will review the matter.

I should like to express to him on behalf of this professional body our thanks for his patience and kindness, for the friendship which he has displayed towards the profession, and the happy relations that exist between the auctioneers and his Department, and also, I am glad to say, the chartered accountants. The chartered accountants are a very important section of the community who have a very important part to play in making this Bill a success. I should like to express my thanks to them for the helpful memoranda they submitted to the Department. I am glad that the Bill has received the approval of the House and I can assure the Minister that the auctioneers will avail of every opportunity to comply with the terms of this legislation.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill (considered by virtue of Article 20.2 2º of the Constitution as a Bill initiated in Dáil Éireann) sent to the Seanad.