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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 24 May 1967

Vol. 228 No. 12

Censorship of Publications Bill, 1967: Committee and Final Stages.

Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.

I move amendment No. 1:

In subsection (1), page 2, line 21, to delete "Subject to subsection (2) " and substitute "Subject to subsections (2) and (3)".

Perhaps we could take amendments Nos. 1 and 4 together. The amendments meet the purpose of Deputy Dunne's amendment No. 5, the idea being that where two or more prohibition orders exist, we go back to the earlier one in regard to the limitation period. It has happened in some cases over the years that a second prohibition order has been made in regard to what has basically been the same book. What Deputy Dunne has in mind in amendment No. 5, and what I propose to make certain in amendments Nos. 1 and 4, is that the limitation period should operate from the earlier year.

I was prompted to put down this amendment by reason of the fact that it is conceivable that a book might be banned from the date of its appearance as a paperback as well as from the date of its previous appearance as a hard-covered book.

That is right.

Very often, the difference in time between the appearance of a book initially as a hard-covered book and subsequently as a paperback could be a number of years—usually, two, possibly more years. It would not seem equitable that the author should be penalised, as it were, doubly, as has been the case by having the date made applicable from the most recent binding.

Another reason why I put down the amendment—it is also the case the Minister mentioned — concerns subsequent alterations in books which require their re-publication more or less, as it were, as new books entirely: the corrections and alterations mean publication as a new edition. It is undesirable and I think unfair that the operative date should be the later one in instances of that kind. The Minister is doing the right thing in amending the Bill in this way.

I want to ask a question. I think that what the Minister is doing here is the right thing. I am wondering, however, what the position is where there is a new edition containing new material which might possibly be regarded as objectionable.

If there is new material, it would be a new book.

I am not so sure of that. Under the terms of the Minister's amendment, even if the title is changed, the prohibition is being lifted at the earlier date. This will be automatic in future. It is simply a question of coming up to the particular time prescribed and then the prohibition it automatically lifted.

By and large, I think that what the Minister is doing here is the right thing, namely, that where there are two prohibition orders the earlier date will be the operative one. Probably what I have in mind will not arise because, generally speaking, I think, in relation to prohibition orders, it would be the reverse. Matter would possibly be deleted to get through the censorship code. I am just wondering, if the other situation does exist—if there is a second or third edition which is also the subject of a prohibition order—in which a book is subject to a prohibition order by reason of the addition of objectionable material. I should just like the Minister to consider that aspect.

It is a very remote possibility.

Deputy Dunne stated that oftentimes a book comes out in a paperback edition. Would it not be possible that a book in a paperback edition, considerably abridged, if necessary, would have new material added to it with a view to reaching a wider section of the public than the original hard-covered book which is more pricey? If the order applies only to the first edition which was hard-backed, and the second book does not appear for a period of five, six or seven years after that, is it possible, then, that the whole purpose of this prohibition order will be invalidated because very few people, except people like Deputy Dunne, would buy a hard-backed edition.

That is to be expected.

Sophisticated.

For other reasons, too.

The proletariat would be inclined to buy the cheaper edition that would come on the market.

Particularly as one would go west.

Would something of this sort do—that this should be so unless the second prohibition order is related and stated to be related to new material?

Is the possibility not remote except within the rather narrow confines of the mind of the Parliamentary Secretary?

I think the point by Deputy O'Higgins and the Parliamentary Secretary is met by the fact that the Board can re-ban. Normally, you have deletions in the paperback. If there is an accentuation of obscenity in the paperback, this can be met by the Board re-banning.

Yes, of course the Board could re-ban when the ten years are up. If the second ban is imposed within the ten-year period, it goes automatically.

It would have to come along after the 12-year period as proposed in the next amendment.

I suppose that would meet the position here.

Section 3 covers that and section 7 of the 1947 Act.

This is what I had in mind.

The prohibition order will not have an operative period of 20 years.

It would be either ten or 12 years.

The new order made under section 3, as Deputy Andrews said, and which the Board is entitled to make on the expiration of whatever period we decide on, would have the same effect. At the end of that, a further prohibition order may be made and so on in saecula saeculorum.

There is no obligation on the Board to review books which are banned and which are being automatically released.

This is the way it has always operated. This is not something new.

The amendment is intended to benefit existing publications——

——as of now.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 2 in the names of the Minister and Deputy Dunne. Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 go together.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 2, lines 24 and 28, to delete "twenty years" and substitute "twelve years" in each place.

Before we go ahead with this amendment, I should like to say that I do not propose to move my amendment No. 3 on the basis that the Minister is now reducing the proposed period of 20 years to 12 years. I should like to thank the Minister for meeting me in part at least. What motivated me in suggesting ten years is that basically section 3 is a review section. As Deputy O'Higgins mentioned, the Board can now review a prohibition if this 12-year period is accepted. The point I tried to bring out was that the 20-year period was too harsh, too long and unfair to the author and the publisher.

If we are on the——

We are on amendment No. 2.

I am glad the Minister has accepted my suggestion in this amendment to reduce the period from 20 to 12 years because he indicated in his introductory speech that he was not adopting a rigid attitude so far as the period of 20 years was concerned. It is only right that when any effort at liberalisation of censorship is being made and the principle of change accepted, that a reasonable number of years, a number of years which would have application to reality should be determined on. It is obvious that the banning of a book for 20 years in the times in which we live—and we nearly always relate every argument nowadays to the time in which we live, but in this instance it is relevant——

Penal servitude for life.

That is only nine years.

I have no doubt that the Parliamentary Secretary would like to impose penal servitude on any liberal in this House.

I regard the Deputy as the greatest conservative in this House——

There are none so blind as those who will not see. If you change places with me, you will find out how unconservative I can be. However, the Parliamentary Secretary as usual is attempting to interrupt my train of thought but I will stick to the point.

He cannot even see it in the Connacht Tribune.

Is Deputy Tully suggesting that the Parliamentary Secretary is interested in getting publicity? Sometimes I notice a dissimilarity——

(Interruptions.)

In the reports he seems to have far greater effect than he does in the cut and thrust——

You will have to serve a prohibition order on the reports. You will have to prohibit the publication of those reports.

The Parliamentary Secretary would censor everything that is published. That is the kind of mind he represents in the ultra-conservative wing of the Fianna Fáil Party that he leads, as we well know. However, to get back to the matter with which we are concerned: once it was decided to do the right thing in arriving at the number of years, I think that while there is no good reason why the number 12 should be chosen any more than say eight——

Like Bingo—a lucky number.

You would know more about that than I would.

I never played it.

I understand it is the basis of your fund-raising activities down there. Some people say that Taca is the same as the Central Intelligence Agency. Who knows? The Minister might not be aware of everything. Rumour has it that CIA is involved in that, too.

Let us get back to the amendment.

I am doing my best to be relevant, despite the persecution which is my lot. I congratulate the Minister on his attitude in this because I realise that in moving into the sphere of censorship, it is necessary for a politician to take his courage in both hands. This morning I went to the Library of the House to seek a copy of Ulysses which is not banned but they have not got it.

You should try Mr. Bloom.

The Minister deserves commendation for trying to meet the wishes of reasonable people. I think the reduction of the period from 20 to 12 years represents an effort in that direction. As time goes on, other Ministers will possibly abbreviate it further and, I hope, will do justice to the intital step taken by the present Minister for Justice.

If a book were banned on the ground of indecency or obscenity 20 years ago, I cannot see the Minister lifting the ban now. If the book was indecent 20 years ago, it is still indecent 20 years afterwards. It is just pandering to so-called liberal thought that this ban should be lifted and I am very sorry to see the Minister give way to the amendments. This can do no good.

If a book is published under a certain title—and this has been done—the title may be changed.

Or the dust cover changed.

Yes. It may be changed just to get it passed here. It is well known, particularly on the Continent, that one set of publishers may produce a book bearing on the outside something from the New Testament but inside you find it is a pornographic book. I want to ask the Minister if we have any safeguard in the Bill to stop this device of changing the title.

I think the Minister has met the views that were expressed in the House fairly in the amendment he has proposed. The Minister and Deputy Moore, if he was present for the Second Reading, will probably recall that there was a pretty general view that the period of 20 years was too long. I think everybody who took part in the Second Reading debate recognised that there was some substance in the point of view expressed now by Deputy Moore but that it was rather too facile reasoning to say that because a book was banned under the 1929 or the 1946 Act on the ground that it was indecent or obscene 20 years ago that meant that the book should be condemned as indecent or obscene forever.

I think the Minister agreed on Second Reading that the case for lifting a prohibition order after a particular period of time, whether 20, 12 or ten years, was justified by the fact that community standards change and that we are in a situation where community standards are changing and that, as far as passing judgment on any book is concerned, the judgment should be passed from the point of view of contemporary community standards. I do not think that the Minister, in introducing, first, the amending Bill—remember, all that is being done now is to reduce the period of the prohibition order as proposed by the Minister in the Bill—is pandering, as Deputy Moore says, to what he calls "so-called liberal thought". He is doing something that requires to be done in view of the undoubted fact that community standards have changed and are changing.

It is quite justifiable for somebody to say that he regrets to see what is going on today and that he would prefer that both individual and community standards should remain as they were, ten, 20 or 50 years ago but, as a Legislature, we must recognise what is happening and, in the introduction of this Bill and now in the introduction of these amendments, the Minister is realising what is happening. It is on that basis, first of all, that there was a justification for putting a given life to prohibition orders and, secondly, that is the justification for reducing the given period originally proposed.

Réitím leis an Teachta Moore nuair a deireann sé nach ceart téarma an choise do laghdú. Im thuairimse, ba cheart an téarma do mhéadú. Ní dóigh liom go ndeineann imeacht aimsire an rud gáirstúil grás-túil. Más ní é go raibh sé gáirsúil 20 bliain ó shoin, ní dheineann imeacht aimsire geanáil é. Tá cathú orm go bhfuil an tAire ag laghdú tearma an choise. Muna raibh sé ar chumas an údair litríocht do chumadh gan gáir-siúlacht do chur ar gach uile leathanach, ní doigh liom gur fiú údar do thabhairt air agus measaim gur ceart cosc a chur leis. Má tá caighdeán mhoraltacht an pobal ag dul i laghad, tá dualgas orainn go léir ár ndícheall a dhéanamh chun an pobal a chur ar a leas.

Cad mar gheall ar Dhonnchadh Ruadh Mac Conmara agus na sean dánta? Cad mar gheall ar Chúirt an Mheán Oíche?

Bhíos ag plé le laghdú an choisc. Ní rabhas ag tagairt d'údar ar bith agus nuair a bhí an Teachta ag caint níor chuireas isteach air. Maidir le votáil tabharfaidh mé mo vóta do réir mo choinsias féin.

As I have already said, I think it is perfectly acceptable for Deputies to have different views on this. All I said is that this is a matter which Deputies may have to vote on. Deputies will recall that on Second Reading I made it quite clear that so far as my Party are concerned we are not bound by the Party Whip on this.

I certainly would like to say, too, that every Deputy is entitled to his point of view on this. I did not want to interrupt the Deputy who was so eloquent in Irish on this. I can quite see that everybody is entitled to his point of view. I merely wanted to say to the Deputy that he, particularly, is aware, I am sure, certainly as much as anybody in this House, of the fact that complaint has been made through the decades concerning the content of certain of the great poems in Irish. Cuairt an Mheán Oíche is one. This is a very good example of what has happened over the years. That is regarded in certain circles as obscene.

Is the Deputy saying it should not be banned?

I am not saying that at all but as will be recognised by most people today until it is proved——

Is the Deputy a liberal?

I think any adult person who comes into this as the Pharisee who goes into the church and say: "Behold I am not as other men"——

I know the Pharisees who sit in this House and they are not on these benches.

Maybe they are on the other side but, as I said, that is what the Pharisee does.

The publican is there too. We must look at him.

They stand afar off and thump their breasts.

Advantage is being taken of this particular discussion to adopt postures of "holier than thou". Let me say that every male member of this House is equal. We were all born with the stain of original sin. There is no difference between us on that score. We are all as moral or as immoral as the rest of the people. Advantage has been taken here to pose as something superior to the rest of the people here. Advantage was taken, if I may say so, by Deputy Moore to create the impression that he is the guardian of the people's morals and that the rest of us fall down on this matter.

The Deputy is posturing now.

The Deputy can accuse him of not being immoral.

I would remind Deputy Dunne that we are still discussing amendment No. 2.

The idea, therefore, of suggesting that an effort to free somewhat the laws as they relate to censorship to meet the developments of modern thought, in the spirit of, let me say, ecumenism, pushes you off a pedestal is wrong.

I am not on any pedestal.

In the spirit of ecumenism, it should be accepted that we are trying to do the best we can with a very difficult problem and one which has beset every Minister for Justice who has occupied that high office.

If he wishes, the books can be re-banned.

I realise full well that people can have very strong and very sincere views on this just as we all have on certain matters. Very often, if we analyse our own views on certain matters, we have to admit that they are based on bias, to some extent, on prejudice in certain regards and perhaps on resistance to change. Changes are not always pleasant things: they are very often unpleasant. Let me say this. Nobody is more revolted than I am on occasions on reading some of the trash we have to read in those books which have been on the register as banned, not for the same reason as Deputy Moore would have them, for pietistic reasons, but for the lack of uniformity or music in the words used. They strike decadence in my ears.

That is saying a lot.

I would like to reply to Deputy Moore on the basis that we are discussing literature. We are discussing books of known literary merit. We are not discussing the hot type of book and the muck which was clearly what Deputy Moore had in mind. I would like to remind the Deputy that he used the expression "liberal". What is the meaning of that? I would like Deputy Moore to explain to me what "liberal" is?

Deputy Dunne said that.

The word "liberal" I can define. It is a man with the principle of all things to all men at a particular time to suit his own particular attitude and frame of mind. That is a liberal to me. I would like to remind Deputy Moore that Brendan Behan, O'Casey or indeed Joyce or Hemingway did not write for the sake of being obscene. Some of those authors are on the register of prohibited publications. That is not to suggest that those are in fact obscene publications. I would like to remind Deputy Moore that those men did not write some of those publications for the sake of being obscene. Brendan Behan's "Borstal Boy" deals with a boy who is in a British gaol. The last speaker made a point with which I agree. We are today discussing changes in the existing law on censorship. We have to take a realistic look at this whole question. We are discussing amendment No. 2 at the moment which reduces the period to 12 years. I have amendment No. 3 down which seeks to reduce the period to ten years. I am glad, as I said, that the Minister came some way towards meeting my proposed period of ten years. However, I will have an opportunity of discussing that when it comes up.

There is one comment I should like to make. I agree with Deputy Andrews almost entirely, except in regard to one point. I am sure the Deputy did not mean this but it could be interpreted from what he said that all books in which muck occurred were written by people who wanted to write literature. In fact, that is not so. There are people who write muck because otherwise they could not sell their books.

I accept that entirely.

Provided the people who are acting as censors for the time being appreciate the difference we then can easily find common ground. There is just one thing about this, that is, that if it is literature— perhaps that is not the correct word— the attitude goes too far and the stage could be reached at which those writing books for the purpose of setting down good literature might find that they have licence to put in more than is necessary of this type of raw material. As long as that attitude will be looked after, the suggestion in the Minister's amendment, which covers 12 years, is acceptable. There is, again, the point Deputy M.J. O'Higgins made that they can be re-banned. That covers the whole thing and we are wasting time on something which is not very important to authors.

The public do not know this, of course.

We are discussing censorship in general and not individual authors. It is a strange thing that people who seek to liberalise censorship immediately impose censorship on people who disagree with them. That is the way with the lunatic fringe in this city: if you are against them, you are held to be a Pharisee; you must not disagree.

I take exception to the fact that the Deputy describes the Parliamentary Secretary as a liberal.

The Parliamentary Secretary is a liberal. If Chaucer were alive today, he probably would be banned. If you remember Brendan Behan, whom I knew well, he did not write for the sake of being pornographic. He wrote in revolt against what he saw. Proper writing is meant to be read. I feel strongly about a Deputy in the Opposition saying things like that. The same Deputy made a protest against the system. Writing can be great without being pornographic and without being indecent.

That is——

Deputy Tully is a reactor; he was never attested.

He was attested all right.

Surely we need not go with the herd? Surely we can express our views here without being attacked viciously on account of the views we hold?

The Deputy should be canonised.

I do not want to be canonised. What we are doing here is reducing the number of years. We are admitting that these books should never have been banned. Some of them should not have been banned.

If that is not woolly thinking, I do not know what it is.

Mention has been made of the publican and the pharisee. One thing as regards censorship is that we should have something fixed and not go with the herd all the time.

At the risk of being called a Holy Joe, I should like to make a few comments. I think printing was invented around 1400 or so. Many countless millions of books have been published and circulated since then. In the index of forbidden books which is——

What book is that?

This book is called Catholic Viewpoint on Censorship. On page 51, it says:

The Index Librorum Prohibitorum (the latest edition appeared in 1948, with an appendix including books proscribed up to December 31, 1945) is a listing of some four thousand titles.

Not in Ireland.

In the whole world. On page 52 it says:

Further, of these four thousand books, probably two-thirds are technical, professional works, many of which are unknown even to workers in the same professional fields and which probably could not be found outside an extremely antiquarian library.

That refers to the Second Programme for Economic Expansion.

The Deputy is calling it a work of fiction. It goes on to say:

A surprising feature of the titles on the Index—surprising to those who are not familiar with the nature of the Index—is the fact that most of the proscribed works in theology and philosophy were written by priests. In the whole field of literature, in which Catholic readers might probably feel that their freedom was being most restricted, there are not more than several hundred titles on the Index. The national literature that leads the field is the French— Zola, Balzac, Hugo, to name a few, have some or all of their works on the Index. There is only one English novel on the list—Richardson's Pamela.

Deputy Moore should have this book.

It continues:

(Sterne's Sentimental Journey is named, too, if one would call it a novel)—and not a single American novel has been listed——

That does not take this country into account.

It takes in the whole world. I am talking about the Index Librorum Prohibitorum.

Could we have it again, please?

This book is Catholic Viewpoint on Censorship by Harold C. Gardiner, SJ. The book is most interesting. It goes fully into this question. In America, where there is no censorship, groups and organisations of Catholics and non-Catholics have been established to advise parents and general readers on books that should not be read. That system has succeeded very well.

To get back to the point I was trying to make, we should not go too far with the banning of books, but if a book is deliberately obscene and pornographic, and in the opinion of the Censorship Board, was written for the purpose of spreading pornography and obscenity, to which Deputy Tully referred, that book should be banned. Many paperbacks are written for the purpose of finding a ready market among young people, adolescents and the like. They are not literature: they are sold to corrupt youth and such books should be banned.

You get many of those in the west of Ireland.

No, never there—we have some light fiction down there, publications by the Labour Party.

Those are only for election time.

Ba mhaith liom fiafraí den Teachta Dunne cad is litríocht ann. An gá salachar do chur ann chun litríocht a dhéanamh de?

That is a different one.

Mo dhúshlán don Teachta Dunne líne ar bith a fháil i bhfilíocht Donnchadh Ruadh Mhic Chonmara ná gabhann le módhúlacht. Maidir le Cúirt an Mheán Oíche níor cuireadh cosc leis riamh agus ní thuigim cén fá go ndearna an Teachta Carty tagairt dó. Dá gcuirtí cosc leis, ní bheinn ag iarraidh ar an Aire téarma an choisc a laghdú. Ní thuigim cén fá gur chuir an Teachta Dunne cluanaireacht i leith an Teachta Moore agus mé féin. Ní h-ionann cluanair-eacht agus gan réitiú le tuairimí an Teachta Dunne.

Ní thuigim cén fá go bhfuil an Ceallach ag cur chomh láidir sin i gcoinne píosa litríochta mar Chúirt an Mheán Oíche. Nach bhfuil cosc air sin? D'fhoghlaim gach scoláire meán-scoile sa tír seo cuid de agus nuair a tháinig sé chuig na sleachta a bhí roint bheag gáirsiúil, dar leis an múinteoir, sciorradh go tapaidh thairis ach bhí an tosach de ghlan-mheabhair ag gach páiste meán-scoile. An litríocht an dán seo: “Ba ghná mé siúl le cois na habhann, ar bháinseach úr is an drúcht go trom .... taitneamhach aoibhinn suíomh na sléibhte ag bagairt a gcinn thar dhroim a chéile”? Ón taobh sin tíre don Cheallach.

Is tusa a luaigh Cúirt an Mheán Oíche ar an gcéad dul síos. Bhí mise ag caint mar gheall ar na leabhair a raibh cosc orthu.

Tá cosc ar Chúirt an Mheán Oíche.

Tá cosc ar an aistriú.

Sin scéal eile.

This, of course, is an eternal subject which has exercised many minds over many years—the minds of St. Paul, Milton, and Deputies —but, to put the matter into perspective, what we are doing in this Bill and in the amendments is rationalising censorship and making it appear to be and operate as a sensible system. I would, as I think every Deputy would, defend the principle of a censorship code. One must have a means of protecting people against evil literature which can be just as damaging as drugs. I think everybody in this House would agree we must have a censorship code.

I think our system, which has evolved over the years under all Governments, is a very good one. As I said on Second Reading, other countries are beginning to move towards some such system as we have, where you have a consistent system of censorship under a Board which applies a consistent set of criteria in its assessment of publications. To my mind, the system we have is far superior to that which operates in a number of other countries, where control is operated through the courts and is subject to the varying notions of different police prosecutors and magistrates as to what is and is not obscene.

That system is not as good as ours; in fact, there is no country in the world that does not operate a system of control on publications of one form or another. Our system is quite good and the only reason I introduced this Bill was to remove anomalies which I could see quite plainly existed in it, and to rationalise the system so that it would appear to be, and would in fact be, a system of censorship that in 1967, and in the future, would command the respect of all right-thinking people. This is what impelled me to bring in this Bill in the first instance. There was one very grave anomaly in this system as it operated heretofore, that is, that once a publication was banned, it was banned for ever. This created a situation in which very many works that have come to be recognised as of fine literary merit remain banned. Many of the authors affected in this manner were very fine—Irish authors of international repute, men like Frank O'Connor and Seán Ó Faoláin. The fact that some of their books were banned has caused our system of censorship to fall into a degree of disrepute.

I should like to see the system a responsible, well respected system which can stand on its own two feet, as a rational attempt by a responsible community to restrict works of indecency. This is what censorship means; not a means of restricting forever works of literary merit which, according to certain community standards at a particular period, may not have been regarded as being fit to be read but in the changed circumstances would be generally acceptable. As Deputy Moore said, one cannot change basic morality, and there is nothing in this Bill to suggest that any book which offends basic morality will, in the future, be admitted, any more than it was in the past.

The safeguard is, of course, in section 3 which provides that any book on the lapse of a prohibition order can be re-banned for a further period. This re-banning process can continue indefinitely. But the important thing is that we safeguard from perpetual condemnation literature which may have in fact—I think it was Deputy M.J. O'Higgins used the phrase first— offended community standards at a certain period but which, of its nature, should be given the chance of being reviewed again by a censorship board, in the context of the community standards of a different age.

That is basically the thinking behind the Bill. I think it is very sensible. We have a sensible censorship board; I think any works coming before it for review will be looked at in a sensible way. Works of evil intent will be re-banned; works of literary merit, without evil intent which may have offended community standards in the past will be allowed to be read and, in this way, the system can adjust itself to attitudes.

The specific purpose of the amendments under discussion concerns the limitation period of the prohibition order. I suggested 20 years initially but all members who contributed here on Second Reading suggested a shorter period. Ten years was mentioned by, I think, every speaker as being more appropriate. I have adopted the period of 12 years. I feel that is the absolute minimum period we should adopt because it is important that we should not breach the whole idea of censorship and there would be an obvious breach of the principle of censorship if one allowed too short a limitation period. One must take it that the particular Censorship Board at the time reflects the community attitudes of the day. Obviously, community attitudes cannot change overnight. Therefore, one must select a reasonable period. I suggested 20 years initially in the Bill. I said I was completely open on the matter. I was being cautious because one can easily be wrong-footed on a sensitive matter of this kind.

That is what Deputy Moore was trying to do.

I have come down on the side of 12 years as being reasonable, having regard to the points of view expressed in the House and the point of view which I expressed that there should be a reasonable period because anything less than a reasonable period would be a breach of the whole principle of censorship. I feel that 12 years is reasonable and, possibly because I am a lawyer, 12 years appealed to me because it is enshrined in many statutes as a limitation law. It is the period recognised as giving one squatter's title to property. It is a limitation period that has been well accepted over the years and for that reason, I feel it would be an appropriate period.

It is the age of Confirmation.

As long as the House and the public generally are aware of the basic principle enshrined in the subsequent section, which we have not reached but which is relevant to this discussion, that these censorship prohibition orders, while lapsing after a fixed period, 12 years as we suggest now, can come up for review again by the Censorship Board, and can be re-banned for a further 12 years, there will be no grounds for unease at the reliefs we are proposing in this Bill.

Would the Minister not agree that it is a very bad practice for a daily newspaper to publish regularly the names of books that have been banned and their authors? I see in one newspaper every fortnight or so the list of banned books.

Is it the Connacht Sentinel?

No, it is the Irish Times.

How would anybody know what is banned unless they are published?

I thought the Parliamentary Secretary only read the Connacht Sentinel and papers like that.

I am very liberal.

Every library committee gets the list of banned books.

This hardly arises on the amendment.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 3 not moved.

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 2, between lines 30 and 31 to insert the following new subsection:—

"(3) In any case where two or more prohibition orders of the kind mentioned in subsection (1) are in force in respect of a book (whether the book is referred to by the same title in all the prohibition orders or otherwise) each of the orders shall cease to have effect on the date on which, by virtue of this section, the order first made ceases to have effect."

We have already discussed this with amendment No. 1.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 5 not moved.
Question proposed: "That section 2, as amended, stand part of the Bill".

May I speak on the section? I just want to give my reasons for putting down the period of ten years. I do not think the public are aware that effectively section 3 of the Bill is a review section by virtue of section 7 of the 1946 Act. It is very important to remember, and it will allay the worries of people such as my friend and colleague, Deputy Moore, that books sent to the Censorship Board or books sent on appeal to the Appeals Board will be books of known literary merit. They will not be indecent; they will not be obscene; and if they are indecent, or if they are obscene, they will get the short knock they deserve. We are discussing books of known literary merit, not the sala-cious muck that has created great fears in the minds of some of the speakers. This is really a review section under which books brought to the attention of the Censorship Board may be re-banned.

I made the suggestion on Second Reading that in some instances an appeal should lie from the Appeal Board to the High Court. I have thought this matter out and having seen the constitution, the personnel of the Censorship Board and the Appeal Board I find that the Censorship Board is headed by an eminent judge of the Circuit Court and the Appeal Board is headed by another eminent judge of the Superior Courts.

There is a matter I would like to bring to the Minister's attention and I would like him to answer it when replying. Has an author or a publisher or five Members of the Oireachtas the right to appeal personally to the Appeal Board; in other words, have they the right of oral hearing? As I read the 1946 Act, it would appear that the method adopted now on an appeal from the Censorship Board to the Appeal Board is that the author or publisher must submit a written memorandum of the reasons why he thinks his publication should not be banned. If that is the situation, I feel it contravenes the principles of natural justice. This is I believe an important point so I would ask the Minister to reply to this question. I would also ask the Seanad possibly to take judicial note of my words on this matter and they might put an amendment in to give the author or the publisher or five Members of the Oireachtas the right to be heard orally before the Appeal Board.

On that aspect, Deputy Andrews raises a point which carries some weight but I think the situation is met to the extent that under the law at the moment the Censorship Board or the Appeal Board can call in the author or publisher or five Members of the Oireachtas in the case of the Appeal Board to discuss or explain to the Board or the Appeal Board what is involved or what matters require to be clarified. This discretion at the moment under the censorship code goes, I feel, a long way to meet the point of view expressed by the Deputy. I do agree with him that it is not written into the law that the author or publisher or five Members of the Oireachtas have the right to be heard. It is a discretionary matter which resides with the Board and the appeal authority.

Can the author or publisher be invited to appear?

Yes, it is open to the Board and the appeal authority to invite or have the people mentioned by the Deputy who are concerned with a particular publication before the Board or the Appeal Board to discuss the matter. This discretion does reside in the board or the authority. The right to demand is not there on the part of the author or the publisher or the Members of the Oireachtas. It is a matter that could be considered and I will look at it between now and the Seanad discussion on the Bill. These people can be called in under the law at the moment and the Censorship Board or the appeal authority have discretion to do this if they wish.

The Minister will consider this matter between now and the Seanad discussion. It is the question of giving the right to the author or the publisher to appear in person before the Appeal Board.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 3 agreed to.
SECTION 4.

I move amendment No. 6:

To add to the section the following:—

"and the following substituted ‘which is the work of an Irish national not more than once every year and in the case of any other work not more than once every three years'."

The explanatory memorandum states:

This section removes the time-limit of 12 months for the taking of an appeal against a prohibition order made in respect of a book on either of the two statutory grounds referred to in paragraph 2 above. One appeal only can be taken in respect of any such prohibition order and that provision is not being changed.

I think it unreasonable that this should be so restricted as to permit one appeal only. The period of 12 years upon which we have agreed is a very considerable one, and I think that to limit the right of an author or another party to appeal against a prohibition to one opportunity within 12 years, is hardly a fair dispensation. I suggest, therefore, in my amendment that Irish authors should have the right to appeal against a prohibition every year within each 12 month period because it seems to me that there is a case for showing in our legislation that we are conscious in our obligation to provide some preference for our own nationals while, at the same time, not discriminating unduly against people from outside countries.

It is quite conceivable that a book written by an Irish author might be banned this year and be thought quite fit for de-banning next year or in two years' time. Under the law as we are now formulating it, such a person would have a right of appeal against the ban only once in a period of 12 years. I am really seeking for an Irish author the right to re-activate his appeal every year. I suggest it can be described in that novel fashion.

In so far as non-Irish authors or outside authors are concerned, I suggest they should have the same right of appeal after a period of three years. I think this is a reasonable proposal and I should like to have the Minister's views on it.

Straight away, I am against any notion of distinguishing between Irish morality and world morality.

The Parliamentary Secretary's book distinguishes very effectively.

This is a universal thing and if a work is indecent or obscene, whether it is by an Irish author or an author from outside——

The Minister was talking about community—what is the phrase?——

Community standards.

——which may be different here from those elsewhere. There may, in fact, be an Irish concept of morality which might be legitimately different from that found elsewhere.

I am not talking about the receiving end but about the actual publication itself. I do not think it is practicable to draw a distinction between Irish and foreign authors in respect of publications. Furthermore, I would be against the amendment on the basis that it would drive a coach and four through our censorship code. As I said before, I would defend absolutely the idea of censorship. One must have a fairly consistent system, a system which appears to make sense in the context of any particular age or period of time. If we introduced the idea of reviewing decisions which are applicable to a particular period of time every year or every three years as suggested by Deputy Dunne, we would drive a coach and four through the whole principle.

It would be an application from an aggrieved party.

I do not think it is practicable. We have gone a long way to meet the point of view expressed by Deputy Dunne in reducing the limitation from 20 years to 12 years. That is as far as one can go. So far as I am concerned, that is the full stop. Having assessed public opinion on this matter, and having assessed the views expressed in the House, we have come down firmly on the side of 12 years, and no more, in regard to a concession in that direction. I think that is a reasonable period. If one were to do what Deputy Dunne suggests, one would drive a coach and four through the whole principle of censorship, and these matters would be coming up for review constantly.

It does not even make practical sense. We have had the same appeal board for a fair length of time. The present Chairmen of the Censorship Board and the Appeal Board have held office for many years. It is not practical to propose a system of appeal or review which would involve going back to the same person within 12 months or three years. Twelve years is a reasonable period. Community standards may change imperceptibly over 12 years, but anything less would make nonsense of the whole idea of censorship. We must make a stand somewhere. We have gone a fair way towards meeting the views expressed in reducing the limitation period from 20 years to 12 years, and thus far shall I go.

(Cavan): On Second Reading, Deputy M.J. O'Higgins on behalf of this Party, intimated that there was a case to be made for the suggestion now put forward by Deputy Dunne in this amendment but at that time the life of the ban was 20 years. It is now reduced to 12 years and we do not think the same case can be made for giving a right of appeal every 12 months to an Irish author, or once every three years to a foreign author. Another thing which strikes me about the proposal to distinguish between Irish authors and foreign authors—European, shall we say—is that in this day and age we hear so much talk about entering the EEC and this will run against the Treaty of Rome, if and when we become subject to that Treaty. I should like to say that Deputy O'Higgins's view on the necessity for this amendment has changed since Second Reading.

One thing we can be sure of is that, if we get into the Common Market, we shall be worrying more about the Treaty of Rome than about the Censorship Act. There is a lot to be said for Deputy Dunne's amendment, because, with all respect to the Censorship Board, there is a tendency for the Board to deal with what the courts might refer to as old offenders: if somebody writes a book that book is banned, the Board watch out for the next book by that author and give it the heavy hand. The fact that this has happened on more than one occasion is sufficient reason to have another look at the Board within 12 months or two years. I believe the Censorship Board are tougher on Irish authors than outside writers. Maybe they are right in doing that but that is not my opinion.

Twelve years is too long. Three years seems to be a reasonable time because though the Minister says the Chairman of the Board and the Board members will be there for a long time, the tendency in the Department of Justice has been not to appoint young people to the Board and some of the members do not survive for 12 years. It might therefore be a good idea to accept the principle of the amendment and to change the Board more often. If some of the personnel were changed more often, there might be a different approach to this question.

I am not now making a case for the free entry of pornographic books. Enough of them are getting in, banned or unbanned, but there should be some way whereby the borderline case gets reviewed. With the change which has taken place in the modern world in many fields, I am sure a number of books which have been banned during the past ten or 12 years, particularly some Irish ones, may be perfectly respectable reading within the next ten or 12 years in certain circumstances. Therefore, there is nothing out of the way in the suggestion made by Deputy Dunne. He and I are talking about books which were not written in a pornographic way simply for the purpose of being sold as pornographic literature. We are talking about literary works which happen to transgress. We know of books which have been banned just because they happened to have a few "damns" here and there. Books do not get banned for as little as that nowadays.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy is getting back to section 2.

I am not. What I am saying is that because those books were banned during the past ten or 12 years, surely it is reasonable the authors should be entitled to have the matter reviewed in a shorter period than 12 years. I ask the Minister to look at the amendment again. It has a lot of merit.

With all respect to Deputy Dunne, I do not think we can subscribe to the aim of his amendment because I think it would be bad and wrong to try to define on the floor of this House standards of conduct or morality in one area or another as between writers of various nationalities. If we read the Bible, we know that in this respect the mind of man does not change all that much; and standards of morality, whether here or elsewhere, may be open to discussion, as indeed the question of censorship in general is open to discussion. As Professor Joad used to say, it all depends on what one means by standards of morality.

It is not true to say that all leading Irish writers are free from contravening the borderline in this respect. That is not to say that all works of Irish authors would be open to doubt. I am not for one moment taking a narrow-minded view of this matter but I think it is up to us in the House, and to the Minister as the person responsible for the administration of the censorship legislation, to observe or to judge this matter in an objective, fair-minded and impartial manner. I think the Minister has succeeded in doing that and despite the arguments that may be put forward about media of communication and the shortening of the lines of communication—the advance in technology and all that—we should not allow our minds to run riot in this matter, to run away with the idea that standards of morality change from decade to decade. Indeed they do not.

Indeed they do.

Indeed they do not. I am against Deputy Dunne's amendment on those grounds.

I must take issue right away with Deputy Carter on the suggestion that standards of morality are immutable. They are theoretically immutable but the application of the standards of morality has not been ever found to be uniform throughout the world, as far as I know. The Minister suggested, in what may have been a purely debating phrase, that I was seeking to legislate for two distinct things—Irish and non-Irish morality. Of course this is nonsense. We are not making laws here in regard to morality. We cannot legislate for morality. We can legislate only for the application of certain principles within human competence. Morality is something which goes far deeper than any Act of the Oireachtas. It is in the soul of every individual and of the community, more particularly in the soul of the individual, and I suggest that the diktat, if the word is permissible, as far as morality is concerned must emanate from sources outside this House. I would be the last person to seek to deliver sermons on matters moral. I am concerned with the application of the censorship laws as we have known them up to now and as we are trying to re-draft them for future use.

I do not believe at all that any amendment of mine will result in creating different standards of morality here. Let us recognise that the susceptibilities of Irish society are not necessarily at one with those of other nations. If you walk down the streets of Paris and other continental towns, you will see there quite openly prostitution. Brothels are legalised in certain countries. Is it to be suggested that our standards here are even remotely related to that attitude of mind? Obviously, they are not; and I think it a good thing they are not. Although a liberal in thought, I do not believe in the absolute licence which would be imputed to me by Deputy Moore, given the opportunity. That is not my stand on this matter at all. We have different standards here by reason of our history and our whole background. While these standards may be condemned by some who may not appreciate the Irish stream of thought and development and who are out of touch with the Irish temperament and while these standards may not be approved of by all sections of our own society, nevertheless they are the standards which seem best suited to and most acceptable to the people. That is the final test. The democratic examination of them is the final test. It is not just because they do not correspond either with the fancies of the lunatic fringe referred to by the Parliamentary Secretary or the highly-specialised or very obscure notions of complete licence in literary matters which are to be found in exquisite circles in this country. We have to try to find a commonsense balance. That is what I am trying to do. I am trying to get at what is commonsense in the application of what may be a very contentious law.

It seems to me to be a mark of the maturity of this Parliament that we are able to discuss these things today in the manner we are doing. Even from the experience of the short period I have been here, I can say that 20 years ago I could not conceive of this type of discussion without heat, to say the least of it, and without a great deal of craw-thumping, to say the most of it. We have had the minimum of that today, thank God. I suppose a certain amount of it is inescapable, but it is down to a minimum. I feel a great confidence in the Censorship Board. I do not know the personnel of the Board. I sincerely hope it is not constituted, as are other boards, of failed politicians.

Acting Chairman

I think the Deputy is again straying slightly from the amendment.

I know I am expressing what is probably a vain hope. However, I do not want to go into this and I accept your ruling, Sir. The Minister must repose some confidence in the Censorship Board. It is not right to say that a great deal would be imposed on the Board if they were asked to review the works of foreign authors after three years and those of Irish authors after 12 months and in each period of 12 months. I think the Board are well qualified to change even their minds. It was mentioned that 12 years was the standard period in regard to the term of office of the chairman and the members of such a Board. It seems to me an average Board could be expected to change their mind in a couple of years, it being determined of course by what Deputy M.J. O'Higgins referred to, community standards.

Community standards, as we know, can change very rapidly. I must express the view that I do not like a lot of the changes in community standards in the use of words, as I said before, which to me are revolting, either in the written form or indeed in the spoken form. It is very distressing from a certain point of view, but it is there and we have to accept it. I am thinking of a story by Frank O'Connor. This does not relate to the ill-use of language or the use of bad language. This story, with its artistry and delicacy, lifts one right out of the world. It is about a father telling his small child the facts of life, the normal facts which every child eventually must learn. This was banned in this country. Yet any adult who reads it could not be but struck by the consummate tenderness of the whole situation, the great delicacy with which the problem was handled and the artistry of the man telling the story. Yet, as I say, that was banned.

I am quite certain that a couple of years hence, with changing attitudes, the Censorship Board, having read it and having listened to other people who had read it talking about it and being impressed by it, must certainly say: "We made a mistake. We should have let that through." Under the law as it stands, they cannot deal with more than one appeal. If they turn down one appeal, the book remains banned for 12 years. I am seeking to change that. I am seeking to provide that an Irish author should have the right to appeal every year and that a non-Irish author should have the right every three years to appeal, not that there should be only one appeal in 12 years.

The reason I make the distinction between the Irish and non-Irish author is chauvinistic, if you like, to give preference to the Irishman. It seems to be becoming unfashionable to say anything favourable about Irish people. We have gone so European that we are becoming masochistic about it and we have to apologise now and say mea cupla before advocating anything Irish or even saying that we are Irish. I remember a time when the exact opposite was the case, before you young fellows came into the House. If you could not prove that you were Irish, there was no chance of gaining entry. This is an example of the danger I am talking about. What greater change could there be than that? At one time you could not get in here unless you were dressed in a trench coat, a soft hat and bearing the Tri-colour aloft, singing “The Legion of the Rearguard” at the top of your voice. I should like to see anybody trying that now. He would not have a vote; the original inventors of the role would shoot him down in ambush. That is beside the point.

Acting Chairman

That is the point I was going to make. If the Deputy would confine himself to the amendment, we would make more progress.

The Minister has made up his mind about it and, in order not to discommode the House, I have no alternative but to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 4 agreed to.
Section 5 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported with amendments.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill received for final consideration and passed.
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