asked the Minister for Education if he considers suitable for children of thirteen the text book "An Anthology of Short Stories" used by his Department for Intermediate Certificate English, which contains on several pages certain words and phrases (details supplied); if he is aware that many parents object to the language contained in this book; what he proposes to do on the matter; and if he will take steps to have books used in schools with a better standard of language and expression which will meet with the approval of children and parents.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Suitability of School Text Book.
59.
Mr. O'Malley
I consider the pieces in the new anthologies prescribed for the revised intermediate certificate programme in English to be suitable for the children concerned. The material prescribed in this programme was selected by a committee representative of all the secondary and vocational school associations and of my Department, and its judgment has been widely praised. As regards the three expressions supplied with the Deputy's question, I am satisfied that only people of very delicate sensibility indeed would object to the third of these expressions and I rely on the good sense of teachers to point out to their pupils that, while the other two expressions form an integral part of the text of what is one of the great short stories of the world, they should not include these expressions in their own vocabulary.
Is that the end of the reply?
Mr. O'Malley
Sin deire.
Well, I will break into English. May I ask the Minister if he is serious in saying that the language used in this book is desirable language for children from 12 to 14 years of age and whether he has read the quotations to which I have referred? Is he aware of one of these quotations on page 194:
The capitalists pay the priests to tell us about the next world so that you won't notice what the bastards are up to.
Mr. O'Malley
What are they up to?
Does the Minister consider that this is a proper phrase for children who have not been accustomed to such language in the homes in which they were properly brought up? Further, has the Minister any comment to make on the sentence: "Just as a man makes a home of a bleeding place, some bastard at headquarters thinks you are too cushy"? Has the Minister any comment to make on the expression which I consider most objectionable, at page 198: "Ah, for Christ's sake"? Then let us turn to page 200 where we see the words "poor bugger". We find on page 200 also and I quote: "I don't mind. Poor bugger, we don't know what is happening to him now". Surely the Minister, as Minister for Education, must have some regard to the language used in text books in our schools? Is he further aware that many parents object very much to this type of language being used in their own homes? It might possibly be described as language which is suitable for a low-class toss-school but most certainly it is not suitable language for children brought up in good homes to hear the Holy Name used disrespectfully or the word "bastard" used from time to time. I would ask the Minister to have this withdrawn, particularly this story, until the language has been modified to meet the wishes of good parents who do not wish this type of language to be used by their children in school or after school. I doubt if the Minister has read this.
We cannot have a debate on this question.
(Interruptions.)
This is a very important question.
Mr. O'Malley
As I said, the Deputy is quoting from one of the greatest short stories, "Eve of Destruction"——
By whom?
Mr. O'Malley
Frank O'Connor. As I said in my reply, this material was selected by a committee representative of all the secondary and vocational school associations and of my Department and its judgment in other respects has been widely praised. On that committee, for the information of the Deputy and the House, and for people who might be of the same frame of mind as himself, and I am not being sarcastic, there was Rev. Father Veale of Gonzaga and Mother Enda of Eccles Street, two very highly respected educationists. The second of the expressions referred to by the Deputy "bleeding" and "bastard" occur separately in this book and are not found in the combination which the Deputy suggests.
"Bastard" and "bugger" appear so often in it you can find them in more places than one.
Mr. O'Malley
The third of the expressions is a misquotation of the opening sentence of a biographical note on Frank O'Connor in one of the anthologies of stories for the intermediate certificate programme in English. The sentence in the biographical notes reads:
Cork born Michael O'Donovan was the only child of a drunken but often lovable father and a refined mother!
I do not see, in view of what I have said and in view of the background and the information I have given the Deputy, that there are any grounds for my withdrawing this.
The Minister is aware that these two very eminent educationists to whom he referred may not have the full knowledge that parents have in regard to the proper upbringing of their children. Does the Minister consider that the expressions "By God" and "For Christ's sake" are suitable in a book for children? The Minister has made no reference to the use of the expressions "By God" and "For Christ's sake" which appear in the book. It is wrong——
You would have to abolish Ovid and Horace——
Is the Deputy suggesting that a child of 13 years will not have heard——
(Interruptions.)
This is a serious matter.
Would you abolish Shakespeare, Virgil, Ovid and even the Bible?
They are entitled to use what language they like but parents bringing up their children——
The Deputy is making a speech.
I am seriously suggesting that language of this type should not be used in school books. May I give notice, Sir, that in view of the most unsatisfactory reply, I should like to raise this matter on the Adjournment on Tuesday?
Mr. O'Malley
I might say, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, as I did not——
"A Cheann Comhairle."
Mr. O'Malley
——get an opportunity of replying — technically under Standing Orders, my expression would still be right—I would point out to the Deputy that the purpose of education is to educate.
Educate them in bad language.
Mr. O'Malley
It is not a question of suggesting that the child should learn bad language: it is not encouraging a child to use bad language. It is not using bad language in the schools; it is just showing certain facets of life which exist and which the child will contend with and come across both during schooldays and afterwards. It is furthermore giving the opportunity to the teacher to show to the children how these expressions are used, which most of them know anyway and which should not be used in their vocabulary.
We were taught "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain".
Mr. O'Malley
It is not for me to refer to "Blessed Oliver" or anything like that.
Keep to the book.
Mr. O'Malley
What the Deputy suggests is a serious matter. If he wants to take it seriously, I repeat that of this Committee who recommended this book among other anthologies to me—for which they were widely praised—the senior inspector of the Department was chairman, and on it were the chief inspector of the Secondary Branch, Rev. Fr. Veale of Gonzaga, Rev. Mother Enda of Eccles Street, the former president of ASTI, the chief executive officer of an education committee, the headmaster of a technical school in Dublin and a senior inspector of the Secondary Branch. Surely these people gave every consideration to the matters referred to by the Deputy?
Apart from their consideration——
There can be no further discussion. Deputy Flanagan has made a long speech on this question. The remaining questions will appear on tomorrow's Order Paper.
I give you notice, Sir, that it is my intention to raise this matter on the Adjournment on Tuesday evening.
The Deputy will have to give notice to the Chair on Tuesday.
I think that can be arranged.
An mbeidh tú anseo?
Beidh mé, agus beidh mé anseo ar 2.30 p.m. freisin. Fianna Fáil Deputies never like to hear a Fine Gael Deputy speaking Irish. They think the language is all their own. We are sincere about it.