asked the Minister for Social Welfare the circumstances in which recipients of social welfare payments such as widows' and orphans' pensions find their entitlements reduced when, on reaching 70, they become old age pension recipients, and if he will take whatever steps are necessary to right this situation.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Reduction in Social Welfare Payments.
39.
It is an underlying principle of the Social Welfare schemes dealing with disability, unemployment and widowhood that only one of the benefits should be payable to a person at any time. There is provision in the Social Welfare Acts to make regulations for this purpose. In certain circumstances, however, a person while under the qualifying age for old age pension may receive two forms of social welfare payment simultaneously because, in making the regulations, a generous approach was adopted permitting dual payments in certain cases. However, after the age of 70, title to benefit other than old age (contributory) pension, widows' (contributory) pension or non-contributory old age pension ceases and only one or other of these pensions may be paid. It is not proposed to alter this position.
There is also the case of a widow receiving non-contributory widows' pension who has capital. When she attains the age of 70, her means for non-contributory old age pension may be assessed at a higher level because of a difference between the methods of calculating means from capital for the two pensions. The difference is due to a change made in 1963 which was designed to help widows with young families to support.
Does the Minister not agree that it is socially undesirable, and that it should be regarded by him as inequitable, that a person reaching 70 years of age should have her income reduced regardless of the mechanics of the Act and the regulations of different legal enactments which have been passed here in this House? Does he not consider that he should be operating a policy which will ensure that in no circumstances will the income of those people, when it is derived from social welfare benefits of one kind or another, be permitted to fall below that which they are receiving when they reach 70 years of age? Does he not think that this is something which should be accepted by any Government which is concerned with those people?
This anomaly, if one can call it such, is one which arose as a result of better provision being made for widows in 1963 than was available until then.
It applies only in the case of a widow with capital. The same means test was applied heretofore as in the case of the old age pension—the first £25 was ignored; the next £375 was assessed at five per cent and anything over £400 at ten per cent. In 1963, in order to improve the position of widows and children, my predecessor in office arranged that the first £100 of capital in respect of a widow would be ignored and that the balance would be assessed at five per cent. This does not apply when she reaches 70. However, there was a considerable improvement at that time.
Is it not highly undesirable that there should be a reduction in the amount?
I know they feel disappointed, when they reach 70 years of age.
Would the Minister think about it?
I am always thinking about it.
I am sure the Minister has many things to think about in view of the heavy responsibility which he has. Would he not think about it and use his good offices with his colleague, the Minister for Finance, who is sitting near him, with a view to ensuring that he will incorporate some improvement in this respect in his forthcoming Budget. I do not believe it would take a great deal of money to ensure that these reductions do not take place. Would the Minister not think about it?
I told the Deputy I am always considering this matter. It places one in a position in which one would have to favour a particular old age pensioner with a set of circumstances that do not apply to the general number of them.
A reduction in income is distressing to anybody. Would it not be much better, in the long run, that they should not get any increase in income than that they should get an increase and later have to suffer a decrease in income? Everybody knows that that is an economic fact.
It does not happen very often.
I know that not many people are involved.
We cannot have a discussion——
It is a vital matter to many people. We could not find many more important matters to discuss.
All the questions are important.