Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) (Amendment) Bill, 1967; Second Stage.

Minister for Finance (Mr. Haughey)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

The purpose of this Bill is to enable the Houses of the Oireachtas (Members) Pensions Scheme to be amended to provide pensions for the widows and children of deceased members and to enable the Minister for Finance to make such grants as he thinks proper to the Fund set up under the scheme.

Once the power to pay pensions to the widows and children of deceased members exists, it is intended to introduce a motion in both Houses, spelling out the conditions on which such pensions may be granted and the amounts which will be payable. In addition it is intended to provide in the motion for an improvement in the pensions payable to members of the scheme themselves.

The Bill will also give power to the Minister for Finance to make grants to the Fund out of voted moneys. It is intended that these grants should cover the costs of the scheme, following the proposed amendments, over and above those which can be met by members' contributions but I would like to take this opportunity to stress that this power will not necessarily be used to subsidise any further changes that may be made from time to time in the scheme. Any further amendments which the Oireachtas may see fit to make will have to be examined separately and the fact that financial assistance will be given to cover the changes now proposed is not a guarantee that State grants will be available to cover future changes. No exact figure can be given of the amount of subsidy that will be required until the costs of the improvements have been actuarially investigated. It is intended to have such an investigation carried out in the near future, but in the meantime it is proposed that the amount of the Exchequer subsidy will be £12,000 per annum. This should suffice to ensure the viability of the Fund until the actuary's report has been received.

I would also like to mention that it is hoped to pay widows' and orphans' pensions under the scheme and the improved pensions for members with effect from 1 April next.

Mr. Cosgrave

This Bill proposes, as the Minister said, to give power to amend the scheme so as to provide pensions for widows and children of deceased Deputies and Senators. Up to now this scheme has been entirely financed from contributions from Deputies and Senators and up to the present has been solvent.

It is generally recognised that an extension of the scheme to provide pensions for widows of deceased Deputies or Senators is necessary. A great many of us are familiar with the cases of hardship which have arisen because of the inability of deceased Deputies and, possibly, Senators to make adequate provision during their lifetime for their widows and children. Whatever views may be expressed from time to time about the work which Deputies and public representatives do, it is the fairly general experience of a number of people who have been concerned with this matter over the years that the amount of time involved in serving as a Deputy and attending to the business of the Dáil or to constituents' duties, in a number of cases, seriously impairs the capacity and reduces the time of a Deputy to carry on any other occupation.

There are, of course, a number of exceptions. Certain activities can be carried on successfully and without undue strain on the individual concerned, but, on the other hand, certain occupations involve the fulltime attention of the individual concerned and depend entirely on their personal commitment to the activity, whether it is a profession, a business or employment. That has meant that if the Deputy is satisfactorily to discharge his duties as a Deputy, it imposes an impossible responsibility on the person concerned to run his business or occupation to the extent necessary to leave sufficient for his widow and children.

This scheme was initially undertaken as a result of a voluntary committee established by all Parties and the recommendations made by that Committee resulted in the present pensions scheme being operated. The proposed change now will ensure that cases of hardship similar to those which have arisen on occasion, and for which exceptional efforts were made to provide something to relieve acute distress, will now be dealt with. To that extent we believe the Bill will find general acceptance and a ready recognition by people outside the House as well as in it that there is a justification for the changes in order to ensure that the dependants of a person who has rendered service for a number of years will not suffer the distress which certain individual cases have suffered up to the present. We support the proposal and regard it not only as desirable but necessary.

Mr. S. Dunne

It is not necessary to make a long dissertation on the proposal before the House. It did occur to me when listening to Deputy Cosgrave, that we could find a difference of views, perhaps, within the House as to what constitutes the duties of a Deputy. My own view is that any person who can find time to occupy himself outside this House at any other kind of activity is hardly discharging his duties as a Deputy. It is a fulltime professional occupation, and, as we have learned to our utter grief in the last week, a killer occupation. It does not need any justification, this proposal—its merits are evident—but I want to congratulate the Minister for bringing it before the House.

Mr. Haughey

There is not much more for me to say except to repeat that as soon as I get the statutory authority provided by this measure, we will introduce a motion immediately which will spell out in detail the conditions under which the pensions will be paid, the amounts and so on. The cost to the Exchequer is not significant and I agree with the two Members on the opposite side who have spoken that this is something which is not only desirable but necessary.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 14 Mar 1968