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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 May 1968

Vol. 234 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 9—General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.
—(Minister for Finance.)

First of all, I should like to congratulate the Minister on his contribution to social welfare in his Budget. He outlined clearly the problems facing the nation and through his financial policy suggested the remedies for them. His contribution to the social services is one of which we are very proud on this side of the House. He indicated he would find the necessary means to alleviate distress and provide further social welfare benefits to those in need.

One of the taxes the Minister imposed was on petrol. When this tax came before the House for acceptance, we found that the Esso Tiger had joined the Fine Gael Just Society. The Save the Tiger campaign was carried on by the Fine Gael Party even at the expense of the old age pensioners. Since the Minister introduced the Budget, they have been nibbling at it, not like a tiger but like a pet mouse. Later I will say more about the Fine Gael attitude to social welfare problems.

There seems to be an amount of confusion in both the minds of the Labour Party and the Fine Gael Party in regard to housing in general but particularly in Dublin city. In the Budget an additional £2.3 million was made available for housing. Dublin Corporation have got an increase in the amount required for housing. The housing position in Dublin has been completely distorted by so-called spokesmen for housing who appear on television programmes, who speak from soapboxes in all parts of the city and who speak here with an air of authority, but fortunately with false figures.

I would like to correct those figures and show the true position in relation to housing in Dublin. Up to the present Dublin Corporation have spent £70 million on tenant type houses and £20 million on SDA type houses, a total of £90 million. Dublin Corporation housing estates, consisting of tenant type houses, are valued at £100 million by the insurance companies. This is an indication of the type of programme that has been pursued over the years and the amount of money spent in an effort to bring about better conditions for our people. The corporation's debt at present is £64 million and, out of every pound of that debt, 18/11d. is in respect of housing. This gives an indication of the problem the corporation have faced in the past and the manner in which they made money available to solve it.

On 31st March last year there were 636 traditional type houses in production. At the moment there are 1,413 in production which includes 358 tenant purchase type houses. That is almost double the figure for last year. We have the Ballymun scheme which is providing an additional 1,387 houses and the total number of houses under construction is 2,800. We have seven tenders before the Minister awaiting sanction for 406 flats.

If those figures are accepted, and they are factual, one can readily understand the type of programme in progress in the city. That is far from the cries, the groans and moans we have heard from some speakers on the Opposition side who believe the headlines they see in some of the evening newspapers. I hope that the headlines in some of the evening newspapers last night were not correct. In relation to housing the figures quoted there from time to time were not correct.

There is also the development work in Kilbarrack. Contracts have been placed for £138,000. There is another contract in the same area for £87,000 for development work for future sites for homes for our people. One contractor has obtained both contracts. He has agreed to put in two separate units in order to expedite the development and to ensure that the work will be finished six months earlier than normal.

There is also site development work in Kilbarrack West which has been sanctioned and is in progress to the extent of £66,000, so that the corporation can proceed with greater speed with their housing programme in the future. This money has been made available by the Government and the work is being carried out. That should give the lie to the statements that nothing has been done in the city. That is what one would take from the spokesmen who spoke so loudly and so long on television, in some of the newspapers, from the soapboxes at Abbey Street, and outside corporation buildings on nights when there were meetings.

The corporation have been offered 1,500 houses by McInerney's in Tallaght for tenant purchase of which 380 have been accepted. There is a resolution of mine before the Housing Committee asking them to accept the 1,500 to further alleviate this problem. This will test the members of other political Parties who crow so loudly here and sometimes condemn the Government for doing nothing. They will have an opportunity to express themselves in no uncertain terms as to whether they want to relieve this situation in the shortest possible time.

There is also a deal for 876 houses from Gallaghers on another site. These give some indication of the type of development that is taking place in the programme of the corporation, and the concern which the responsible members of Dublin Corporation have in relation to tenant purchase type houses. I was at Ballymun the other day where the corporation have opened the first of the tenant purchase type schemes to provide homes for the people. The scheme is very attractive. It means that they can get these houses at a very low deposit of £150 and then at four guineas a week, which includes insurance, repayments and rates assessment. In our Party we aim at ensuring that the deserving section of the people are in a position to buy their own homes, and in a position to do so at a low deposit and a low rate of repayments. I feel we have had a very big breakthrough there.

The deposit of £150 is still too high in many cases. The necessary legislation has been passed which enables Dublin Corporation to give a 99 per cent loan in the case of corporation tenants which will bring them down to a much lower figure so that the people who have the capacity to pay but have not the deposit will be in a position to own their own homes. It is our desire to ensure that as many people as possible are in a position to have a stake in the community and own their own homes. We will force that through. Some of the political Parties are against tenant purchase, against people having a stake in the community, for their own good reasons. I know there will be opposition within the council and it will be tested in no uncertain terms in the coming months, but we will ensure where possible that people will be in a position to buy their own homes.

In addition to all that progress on site development and construction work, we have already acquired an additional 80 sites at Howth, 300 at Baldoyle, 250 at Ballymun Avenue, 550 at Tallaght, 600 at Rathfarnham, 267 acres at Kilbarrack North, 171½ acres at Blanchardstown/Clonsilla, 147 at Dunsink/Finglas South and 170 acres at Santry/Balcurris/Poppintree, a total of 755½ acres.

This gives some idea of the situation in relation to the corporation's housing programme and the projections for the future. This work has been done by a loyal group of people interested in housing development and interested in providing houses for our citizens. That is far from the picture painted from the Fine Gael benches, and by some Labour members. One Labour spokesman cleared the air somewhat and indicated that some progress was being made. That is the complete picture. There is no need for me to go further although there are still quite a number of statistics that are of assistance.

Tenders have been received for Sarah Place and Islandbridge, for Jamestown Road, Inchicore, for Ballygal Road East. Development work is in progress in Kimmage Road Lower and other schemes are in formulation. This brings the end of the housing situation within sight and I am quite sure therefore that in the future we will have the situation well in hand.

In the past two weeks we heard a number of individuals speaking on television, people who represent various sections of the community. Some of them are fellow travellers, but I do not know who selected some others.

They were selected by a gullible priest who does not know anything about anything.

They were selected to project a certain image of housing in Dublin, and the people who selected them should be ashamed and should have more sense of responsibility. I want to correct some of the erroneous impressions created on this television programme by people who profess to know all about the housing programme in Dublin. Banners which were carried around the city by agitators and others indicated that 10,000 people were in need of accommodation in Dublin city. At 10 o'clock this morning in the Housing Committee of Dublin Corporation the figure was 5,437. That was less than an hour ago. There is only one corporation waiting list. An effort has been made by certain people in this city to inflate this list by getting people who are not in need of housing accommodation to apply. This has been done on a large organised scale to ensure that when a question is asked a false figure will be produced to the public, giving an indication that a deplorable situation exists in Dublin city.

They are looking for better accommodation. The propaganda is that 10,000 people are homeless.

It is worse than that, according to the spokesman.

Is it the calculation that 5,000 people are living in condemned or overcrowded conditions? They will be rehoused only if they are in condemned or overcrowded conditions.

Or newly-weds.

Newly-weds must be living in condemned housing conditions.

Oh, yes. Deputy Dowling is making a great job of it here this morning. I admire him for it. However, we should not try to colour the picture too much in an effort to make it better. We should not try to gild the lily.

Did Deputy Tully read yesterday's papers on the subject? Did he read any of the papers? It would enlighten him a little.

I do not need to be enlightened on these things. I know as much about the matter as Deputy Carter or anybody else. Deputy Dowling is making a good job of it. Some of his colleagues should not try to gild the lily.

Carry on.

If anybody has any doubts about the newly-weds, I invite him to the Mansion House tomorrow morning where a draw will take place for houses for newly-weds.

Will the 1,641 be there? That is the number that turned up the other day.

I shall deal with that figure in a few moments. The draw for houses for newly-weds will take place tomorrow morning. Some of the persons lucky enough to draw a house are probably already on the waiting list. Nevertheless these houses are available.

Not enough.

I never said it was. There is a population explosion in this city. With a living city, you will always have a housing problem. The only city without a housing problem is a dead city.

No city in the world has enough houses for its population.

I thought Fianna Fáil provided——

We provided more than most.

Comparisons do not get you out of internal difficulties.

Deputy M.E. Dockrell is sitting beside Deputy Lindsay. I suppose he will be able to defend Dublin Corporation when he comes to speak on this Budget. I am quite sure he has been a very active member of Dublin Corporation for a number of years and that he knows the effort that has been put into the housing drive. To get back to the television programme and to the erroneous reports, Mr. MacEoin said that 9,000 houses a year were built. Here are the figures for the number of houses built in the past three years: 1965-66—11,255; 1966-67 —10,984; 1967-68—12,200. The figure for 1968-69 is 13,000 at least. That is a long way from the 9,000 houses which this man on television mentioned. It shows his complete lack of knowledge in relation to the housing programme and in relation to housing statistics of any kind. It is anticipated that the 1968 figure will be nearer to the upper target which has been set at 14,000 houses: I am quite sure it will.

I ask for the co-operation of the Labour Party and of the Fine Gael Party at the housing committee meeting on Friday night next to assist us on our way with these houses that have been offered which are outside the development of Dublin Corporation and which will alleviate the situation as it exists. Mr. MacEoin said the corporation have a favourable statistic of 5,000 people homeless: the statistic they gave is 10,000 people homeless. I gave the actual figure, which I obtained 55 minutes ago from Dublin Corporation. In this particular programme, Father Flannery said:

Now, as Christians, we cannot be content to look after ourselves in this respect. We must show our concern for others. There may be occasions when this concern should change from indignation to even anger.

Anyone who viewed these programmes knows that Father Flannery led the people he was interviewing on various occasions. On this occasion, he showed a complete ignorance of what was being done in housing in this city in leading the questioning and the type of comment. Apparently he does not recall the amount of money that has been spent. He is not aware, probably, of the amount of money—£28.8 million—put aside in this Budget for housing. I would advise those people who are trying to project an image on television to obtain factual figures before posing as responsible people.

If they had facts and figures, they would not be asked to appear.

Deliberate distortion.

On the "Outlook" programme on television at a late hour tonight, Deputy Moore and Senator Carton of Fine Gael will appear on the side of the corporation. They will have particulars of the actual state of affairs.

This is the responsible night.

Who will be the responsible people tonight?

Deputy Moore and Senator Carton.

Deputy Lindsay may not know that Senator Carton is a member of his own Party.

We know that.

The Deputy did not read the statement yesterday?

And took it in?

I come now to Mr. Kenny of Housing Action of the Sinn Féin Group. He is on the Citizens Advice Bureau. I should not like to be obtaining advice from him. He quoted a number of cases, on television. One case referred, he said, to Mr. and Mrs. K., a couple in this particular group, who have been on the waiting list for 13 years, who now have four children and who are living in two rooms. If they desire to go to a special area, they could be on the waiting list for 50 years. I can assure Mr. Kenny of the Citizens Advice Bureau that Mr. and Mrs. K. can immediately be housed if they send their name and address on to me. The allocations officer told me this morning that Dublin Corporation would give them immediate housing in Ballymun where they have accommodation for that category—six persons in two rooms. I shall have it done quickly if he sends on the address.

At no cost.

At no cost.

Exactly.

Such omnipotence and omniscience in one man is amazing.

It is untrue to state that 2,000 dwellings were provided last year in Dublin. The indications are that practically 5,000 were provided and we know the prognosis for local authority houses in Dublin for 1968-69. That is a long way from the allegation which was made: he was not even 50 per cent correct. That is the type of individual and the type of group in the city who are advising people. This particular group received 250 letters: I get that number in a week. When the question was asked: "Did you investigate them?" the reply was "Most of them." I investigate any letters I get—the whole lot of them. They did not do likewise.

Deputy Dowling is a great boy.

Very good. Then we had Mr. MacEoin again stating—he is a very important person—that the local authorities make their contribution also and that Dublin Corporation are currently voting about £10 million, or slightly more, towards housing. The capital for housing by local authorities including Dublin Corporation comes entirely from the State. Dublin Corporation need not vote any money. If you take Mr. MacEoin suggesting a further increase of 3/9d in the rates, it shows the appalling stupidity shown by these people who appear on television in relation to the housing programme in Dublin city, and in Dublin as a whole.

The what?

The stupidity. Mr. MacEoin is a clever man but he says a lot that means nothing, designed to inflame a situation that is well in hand. There are agitators who know the situation is well in hand and in a short space of time it will be in complete control. To assure you that these people will be active in the city of Dublin, I want to quote a document which I have. It starts off:

Comrade ...

What is the title of the document?

It continues:

However, we must not restrict our activities to student problems alone. We must involve ourselves in outside workers' struggles such as Housing, Evictions, support for strikers and other agitations. This is very necessary for the socialist education of students. We shall endeavour to use contacts with local L.P. branches and the Dublin Trades Council to obtain information on which we can act.

What is the title of the document?

There is a discussion on the Russian Revolution and the Hungarian Revolution——

What is the document?

Would the Deputy give the title?

It is a letter to "Comrade" from Mr. D. Rayner O'C. Lysaght.

What is he?

He belongs to a socialist forum, and he is also a member of a political Party.

What is the address?

11 Cherryfield Ave., Ranelagh, Dublin, 6. It goes on:

Comrade,

We hereby announce our intention of standing for election of the UBLP.

What is that?

It is the University of Dublin Branch of the Labour Party.

Now is the time and this is the place—no better place.

Read it out.

It is a very interesting document. It states:

We propose that a very important item on the agenda of all meetings should be discussion on some aspect of theoretical and historical socialism, e.g. different socialist theories and great historical events such as the Russian Revolution, the Hungarian Revolution, etc.

That is serious. This document is taking away from the old Fianna Fáil initiative on the Russian Revolution. Do not let that vex the Deputy too much.

Do not embarrass me too much. I do not want to embarrass people who are not here. I shall deal with this on another occasion. If that is acceptable to you, I would prefer to leave it to another occasion. However, these agitators I am quite sure would be repudiated by responsible men of all Parties. They are delinquents in some form or another and these same agitators and others in the not too distant past have shamelessly used the itinerant situation in order to obtain publicity. They shamelessly used the Griffith Barracks situation in order to obtain publicity. Unfortunately, we were in a bad way at the time when there was a housing crisis in Dublin, when the houses were falling and it was necessary to house people in Griffith Barracks.

These agitators from time to time have said to Deputy Moore and others that they could have television cameras at any moment and this is an important thing. There is an evil influence in Montrose when they could make TV cameras available at any time. Every time these people stood at the corners during agitations they had these TV cameras.

This is serious. I thought Fianna Fáil were in complete control of Montrose. The Deputy ought to catch up on the facts because this is serious.

I have covered most things in relation to the Dublin housing problem and the House should now be in a position to know what we are doing in Dublin and the amount of progress that has been made: the prospect for the future looks very bright indeed. The way has been set, the path has been laid and I am sure that in another 12 months or so there will be a very different situation.

Before I conclude I should like to refer to building. In the building trade in 1961, the number of persons employed was 69,600 and, in 1967, the number was 72,000. This gives an indication of the improvement brought back in the building trade by Fianna Fáil over the years. There is a substantial increase in the building trade and it is now working almost to capacity. It is difficult in some quarters to get skilled labour and unskilled labour at times. Due to the active participation of the Minister for Finance, who is aware of the problem, every effort is being made to make sure that this problem will be solved in the quickest possible time.

I should like to refer to the social welfare problem. This is where Fine Gael walked out of the estimates council meeting. This is where the old tiger came in. "Do not tax the tiger"—Deputy O'Higgins. Now with all the tigers over there—

Are you glad over there to have Uinsionn MacEoin?

I did not know we had him.

We have heard a lot about the just society. Recently the Fine Gael Party voted for a reduction in the health estimate and on the same occasion they walked out of the council meeting. It is a pity they did not stay out but they came back in. They voted for a reduction which would have affected the public assistance classes to a large degree. They were not concerned about the unfortunate widow or the person with a large family or the orphan or the person who was in need of public assistance: they wanted a reduction in public assistance.

This was the contribution of the Fine Gael Party at the estimates meeting of Dublin Corporation. This was the just society—no regard for the social welfare classes, no regard for the old age pensioner who was in need of assistance: they completely forgot about him and about the disabled and the man with the large family who had fallen on hard times. They wanted a further reduction which would have affected the staffs of hospitals. We would have had to reduce the amount of drugs that would be available to the public and the amount of medical services that would be available. This is the just society at local level and indeed I see that, even at national level, they try to crucify the unfortunate public assistance classes. In Dublin Corporation they did not get away with it and they never will.

In the matter of social welfare, they did the same thing: they did not vote for the finances the Minister required to make available increases to the social welfare classes. They did not vote for the tax on petrol and other fuels. Was it against increases to old age pensioners they were voting? Was it against the old age pensioners they were offending? Was their action an indication that it was that section they wanted to nail? Or did Fine Gael want the Minister to withdraw the free television and radio licence concession or did they want him to withdraw the concession to the Old IRA? Which section did they want to offend against? Did they want the increases to be taken from some section? They must have, because the Minister said he wanted more money to meet the increases given in the Budget to these classes but Fine Gael were not prepared to vote for this extra money. Which concession were they against, or were they against them all?

The Deputy had better realise that logic requires certain rules and that, if a thing is not white, it is not necessarily black.

Whichever it was, it was a shameful display. They turned their backs on the deserving section of the community who got something on this occasion, perhaps not enough but it was as much as the Minister felt the country could afford. Nevertheless, Fine Gael did not consider this class were entitled to as much as the Minister had given.

I have heard a number of Fine Gael spokesmen but they gave no explanation why they voted against providing money for the concessions the Minister decided to give in the Budget. The most enlightened speech came from Deputy Harte who was concerned about how the Minister for Finance would increase the price of a box of matches under the new decimal system. It is obvious that Deputy Oliver Flanagan has been lecturing on finance to Fine Gael. That was the main theme of Deputy Harte's speech—how would the Minister increase the price of a box of matches under the new decimal system. He spoke about it for some time and it was enjoyable to listen to. Unfortunately he was not here this morning to continue because we should have enjoyed more of his talk on the matchbox problem. At any rate, he gave a good indication of the social thinking in Fine Gael at local level and at national level—at local level where they try to stab the widow, the orphan, the aged, the needy——

We never did any such thing.

——by proposing substantially to reduce the corporation health estimate, when they wanted to deprive certain needy sections of our people in the city of the health services we considered they were entitled to. Had they been successful there would have been a reduction which would have meant that people in need of medical attention would have to suffer unduly. Fortunately, there were enough responsible people in the corporation to see that this part of the Fine Gael just society programme was not implemented.

In this House also they tried the same thing but the Labour people were at least responsible enough to realise that, if the money was not voted, the people would not get the increases which the Minister's progressive social thinking had made provision for. Since he came to office, the Minister has continued to give to old age pensioners increases which have been traditional in Fianna Fáil policy. Old age pensioners these days do not ask: "Will we get anything". They ask these days: "How much will we get", because they know they will get something, that they will not be forgotten people as far as Fianna Fáil are concerned. They know that as long as we are here they will get their fair share of the national cake. They know that we shall gladly support the taxation necessary to provide the concessions in the Budget.

On this occasion the Minister has given additional relief to old age pensioners and others by way of free television and radio licences. Perhaps it was against this concession that Fine Gael voted. Last year the Minister gave free light and transport. This is being criticised by Fine Gael who have been saying they do not see those people going off to enjoy their holidays. However, it is a concession those old people have which they can use if and when they want. It is a further indication of the Minister's progressive social thinking which has been lauded by all responsible sections of the community, including some Fine Gael people not in the House, many of whom were appalled that an effort should be made in the House to vote against the necessary finances to give these concessions.

I wish again to express my thanks to the Minister for the reliefs given in the entire range of social welfare services. On a previous occasion, under another Government—maybe we, had better not say very much about it; it makes me sad to think of it—one section of the community were given 10d a week. I will not say any more. We have now reached the stage under this Government when all social welfare classes are thought of. No section is left out and it was not a miserable 10d a week they got but a reasonable increase in all cases. Of course I should have liked to have seen them getting more but they got all we could afford and the Minister deserves great credit. A number of old age pensioners and others have asked me to convey to him their sincere thanks for the way he thought of them this time. There are other increases given, too numberous to mention in the short time during which I will be speaking. Therefore, we in the House are very happy.

There is a little matter I forgot about earlier in relation to housing development progress. It is worth mentioning even at this late stage. A sum of £1 million was allocated last year for the public acquisition of land in Dublin to assist in programmes of private house building. A further £1 million has been allocated for the same purpose.

It indicates thinking ahead.

It indicates the progressive mind of the Minister and the Government and I am sure the enlightened people of the country will respond to the call when it comes.

Which call? A general election or electoral reform?

Any call at all.

Even a general election, even a referendum.

That is what I want to know—which will come first?

Let freedom ring every time. We do not want the Blueshirts back.

But for the Blueshirts you would not even be there. There would be no freedom left but for them.

There was no freedom left after they were there. We quoted here something said in relation to freedom by an ex-Taoiseach when he was one of the boys.

He is always misquoted, actually.

Now I should like to deal with education, Deputy Lindsay's line.

Do not laugh. I am as serious about it as your Minister is.

I should like to make a few brief comments about the educational programme that has been developed by Fianna Fáil. I think Deputy Harte said we stole it. The people in my area, a working-class area, are thankful for the progress that has been made in this regard. This is a development programme which has its problems and I am quite sure that any problems that exist will be resolved as time goes on. In relation to secondary and vocational education in Dublin, there is little that could be done that has not been done. I should like to thank the Minister for his progressive thought in relation to the provision of the necessary moneys for the erection of further vocational schools here and throughout the country. This is very important so that we will have available technicians and skilled tradesmen to meet the requirements of industrial expansion. I see in the Capital Budget that six new vocational schools and 20 extensions were completed in 1967-68. This is a fair range and additional moneys have been made available for the coming year. This is something we are all very happy about. I trust that the Minister for Education, in conjunction with the Minister for Finance, will ensure that any deficiencies there are in relation to finance will be made good, even if it means that we have to come to the Dáil again and have a talk with the tiger.

They are going to kill him off.

Do not get rid of the tiger because, while he is there, we will always be here.

The trouble is what way will they dispose of him? Will they shoot him, drown him, or what?

I do not quite follow the conversational debate over there.

It is on a very humorous level.

I would like now to deal with other matters such as industrial relations.

They are interesting.

We are all saddened by the number of industrial disputes that have taken place in the last week or so and the ones that are still in progress and the disputes that are likely to come into focus possibly in the next week or so. I believe that a serious situation is developing here in relation to essential services and that the question of essential services is one that the people employed, the trade unions and other people concerned, will have to come to grips with at an early stage. I am quite sure that men who go on strike have no intention at the particular moment of hurting innocent people. I am sure that the majority of men who go on strike do not want to inflict hardship on innocent people or on their fellow workers in other concerns. I think that if a greater examination of the problem as to the effects of strikes, particularly unofficial strikes or lightning strikes, where people are stranded at a moment's notice, were made by the people concerned, a different situation would develop. These workers' claims may be valid but even some of the strikers themselves dislike unofficial action. I hope the day is near when we will have in our country complete industrial harmony so that we can proceed with long-term planning by industrialists and without fear for the housewife or others, without fear of loss of essential services, so that plans can be made both in the home and in industry and the nation can proceed on the basis we all desire.

I hope and trust that in relation to the problems that are there at the moment the responsible trade union organisation will handle the matter with courage and understanding so as to ensure that the breakdowns which seem likely will not take place. We have enough responsible people and I am sure that there is no problem existing in the industrial field that could not be resolved around a table, even if it took one, two or three weeks. Undue delays agitate the worker now, have agitated him in the past and will agitate him in the future. If these delays are not eliminated, workers in the future will be just as agitated as workers are today and have been in the past. I would appeal to the people concerned, be they trade union officials or employers, when they examine their own situation and find that there have been defects and deficiencies, to repair them at the earliest possible moment in order to ensure that unofficial strike action is not necessary.

There is no perfect organisation, no perfect system, but nevertheless I believe that on this occasion the responsible trade union organisation should bring about at the earliest possible moment industrial peace again so that we can proceed on the road that will allow us to give to the people of this nation all they are entitled to by way of additional benefits and the additional facilities of education, housing, health and all the other factors that can only be obtained by a unified effort. We are all in this together and it is only by a unified effort that we can realise the desires of the nation and particularly the policies that have been pursued which need the necessary moneys that have been given to develop on a large scale.

I believe we would have much more industrial peace if there were not undue delay in handling claims. Employers are never too anxious to handle a claim in the shortest possible time and, when a claim is made, there seems to be an inevitable delay. I believe that if the employers decided to bring about a situation whereby this delay would be eliminated and if the trade unions, if they have defects, repaired the defects, we would have industrial harmony. I trust that the situation at the moment will not develop further and that claims which are proven to be valid will be met at the earliest possible moment.

I was mainly concerned with the housing problem in our city and I want once again to thank the Minister for his thought in relation to the lower paid section of the community, for his thought for the social welfare section, and his assistance in enabling us to proceed in the manner in which we are proceeding at the moment in regard to housing in our capital city. I trust the figures I have given to the Dáil today will be digested. They are figures which are factual. I hope we will hear no more quoting of erroneous figures from the Opposition because they can obtain the same figures as I obtained in the same way. I want to thank the Minister again for all he has done. I am sure he will come back again next year to do something more for the people in the lower income bracket.

In social circles there is always a gentleman who is described as the life and soul of the party. In the political parlance of our time, Deputy Dowling can very well be described as the life and soul of a wake because, in the middle of all the political embarrassment for his Government, he concludes almost every paragraph of his carefully prepared speech with the words: "We are happy over here." How can they be happy? How can any Government be happy with an ever-increasing national debt requiring a perennial increase in the money to service it and when their Second Programme for Economic Expansion has been a dismal failure? It is not talked about as such except that there is an effort to cover it up in another document called "Review of 1967 and Outlook for 1968" with a promise that at some time in the future we will have Part 3 of the Fianna Fáil political fairytale entitled the Third Programme for Economic Expansion. How can any Government be happy in the face of rising unemployment, in the face of continued emigration? Whatever Fianna Fáil spokesmen may say about emigration being stemmed, static or not on the increase, the figure of 33,000 recently given in Great Britain for last year must cause those who claim that emigration has been halted to think.

The Deputy must be including the Jamaicans in that figure.

Deputy Carter knows perfectly well that the answer given in the British House of Commons dealt with Irish emigrants only and the figure was 33,000.

The strings are false.

The strings are false : is it not amazing how such a false deduction can be drawn by Deputy Carter from British statistics? I suppose it is because they are British. How can a Government be happy with fewer people on the land? On this point, I want to advert straightaway to a reference by the Taoiseach in Killarney last week. In commenting on the fact that there had been a considerable reduction in the number of people employed on the land he, nevertheless, asserted that all of those had gone into other gainful employment. He was careful not to say where the gainful employment was. Of course, he was very wise because he could hardly claim the credit for a Fianna Fáil Government whose writ does not run in the industrial cities of Britain and the equally industrial cities and other remunerative places in the USA. That is where the gainful employment has been found by the people who have been forced to leave the land as a result of the policies of this Government.

How can a Government be happy with a rising cost of living? Since 1960 the price of a 2 lb loaf to everybody in this country has increased by 7¼d. Deputy Dowling says : "We are happy over here". How can a Government be happy, in spite of Deputy Dowling's reassuring figures, with the housing in Dublin? He dealt with Dublin only. The housing situation all over this country is in a pretty bad shape. I do not deny for one moment, nor do I wish to hide the fact in any way, that a certain amount of progress is being and has been made but it is not enough. It is just not enough. If the figures Deputy Dowling gave are accurate and if our future realisations are based on any kind of solid footing, why then is there all this talk about housing?

Why does Deputy Dowling accuse those on television of deliberately distorting figures? Why should they do that? To call them fellow-travellers is not good enough, nor is it good enough for the Minister for Finance in an aside to Deputy Dowling, to refer to a gullible priest who would believe anything anybody tells him. I do not know whom he meant but I have a shrewd idea and I have an equally shrewd idea about the antagonism of the Minister for Finance towards the priest concerned.

We are faced with a rising national debt, the failure of the Second Programme, rising unemployment, insufficient housing, emigration continuing at an alarming level and people leaving the land. In a country such as this, the budgetary proposals should ensure that in the long run the money expended is justified by results. I think the real reason for failure in this regard is that there is no long-term planning. There is a certain amount of programming. I would describe programming simply as wishful thinking.

Planning is something different; planning is something which has a degree of accuracy about it or at least such a degree of accuracy as will bring about results desired. In this country the accent is on calves this year, on pigs next year and on wheat or beet another year. There does not seem to be any kind of decent continuity or guarantee for the producers in this respect over a period. If you have a subsidy on calves in 1967 the country is flooded with them in 1968. Where there is such a growth of production, prices are naturally depressed. The people do not go for that next year: they go for something else—pigs, poultry, beet, wheat or something of that kind—but this shifting of the accent on items of production year by year is bad for the continued prosperity which must follow from continued application by the producer to a particular item, once he is guaranteed a price over a period long enough to make it economic for him to engage in that particular produce. You will not get prosperity by simply putting the accent on this particular commodity in one year, then dropping it and putting the emphasis on something else the next year. This shifting of productive application and energy is bad in the overall.

This Budget has been given many names and described in many ways but the claim the Minister made for it is certainly not justified; nor is the Taoiseach's claim of the same kind justified, namely, that this was an expansionist Budget. It is not, but it is like every other Budget we have had in different times and different climates. It is purely a patchwork where you add something here, deduct something there and try to keep the boat moving in waters as untroubled as you can find. There is no imaginative charting here of anything like a new economic voyage. There is nothing to inspire: it is an as-you-were Budget with the exception of the increases in social welfare benefits.

I am all for social welfare benefits for the old, the widows, the blind, the disabled and the unemployed. They should get as much as possible from the national pool but, while we might be doing our best to give as much as we can afford, it is not all reaching the most necessitous. There is a dissipation of money in the social welfare round and it is due to the fact that some people have a feeling that it is not a bad thing—as indeed it is—to purchase the people's votes with their own money. The care and consideration of our old people is of paramount importance because a family is no different from a nation. Very often the family is judged—and rightly—on how it treats its old people within the family unit. A nation is similarly judged, or so it should be, on how it treats its old people. For that reason I welcome these increases and I regret that they have not been greater.

Would the Deputy vote for the extra taxation?

I certainly would.

Why then did the Deputy not vote for the taxation that gave these increases?

The taxation that gave these increases had other ill effects against which we had to vote.

The Deputy's definition a few moments ago of logic, that because a thing was not white it was not necessarily black——

I did not say any such thing.

The Deputy said that because something was not white it was not necessarily black.

If the Parliamentary Secretary is going to take up anybody here on logic and logical processes, I think it would be well for him to become equipped syllogistically before he attempts to embark on that course which appears to be strange to him.

It is not strange to me but the Deputy's quibbling with words does seem to be the height of hypocrisy.

Sophistry.

I am not quibbling with words. I bitterly resent the appellation of hypocrisy when I am speaking on a subject on which I feel very strongly, the old and the invalids of this country or any other country. I will not take it from anybody, even from the rapidly exalted Parliamentary Secretary. I shall engage here in parliamentary debate and observe the rules of parliamentary debate but I will not have any adjectives like "quibbling" or "hypocritical" attributed to what I say unless the person attributing them can justify them in either my personal or political life.

In the Deputy's political life he weeps copiously for the old aged, the infirm and so on.

Of course.

But the Deputy would not vote for the taxation necessary to assist these people.

Who is quibbling now?

The Deputy is: he wants it both ways.

I do not.

This is typical Fine Gael policy. They do not even see the difference.

I have not come here to be taught how to see differences by the Parliamentary Secretary in anything and the sooner he gets it into his head that omniscience and omnipotence do not repose in him alone he might make a better contribution to parliamentary life.

I have no such thought in my head regarding these things.

The Deputy opposite is vexed.

I am not vexed, not a bit.

For a man who is not vexed the Deputy gives a very good appearance of it.

In fact, there is no reason to be vexed. There is a mighty difference between being vexed or angered and being irritated. We also have in this Budget the threat of increased taxation and, in case anybody is doubtful about it, that is on page 10 of the Minister's speech. I believe that threat will be fulfilled.

Coming back to the social problems, combined as they are with those of small-holders in relation to home assistance and indeed to assistance for hill farmers, I am particularly glad that the mountain or hill farmers have been assisted by the increase in the subsidy for sheep. I know many of these men and their families. There is quite a number of such families in my constituency. They are hard workers and genuinely associated with the land, bad as it is. They are able to make it produce what it is capable of producing, namely, sheep.

The Minister is optimistic when he says he is directing certain of the social welfare increases in unemployment benefit and assistance to help the west of Ireland, the small farm and bad land areas. I think he is making a mistake in this because the creation of a permanent pool ultimately, by reason of the size of these receipts becoming dedicated to ablebodied idleness, will not assist either the revival or survival of rural Ireland in the West. I have always advocated that, if assistance is to be given in this regard, it should be given by way of subsidy to a holding under a certain valuation and that its attachment to the holding should be related to production in some way. The West on ever-increasing unemployment assistance and unemployment benefit, side by side with fallow fields and rushes, will not survive or be revived. There must be work and the dignity of work must again be the conception of the progressive person.

Hear, hear.

I am very serious about this, because if the local advisory services would combine to assist these people, the small-holding, while it might not be viable in the modern sense of the word or in modern times, could at least become more productive than it is. The great tragedy is that people have got out of the habit of work and out of the habit of production. I know people living not far from towns whose forefathers reared their families on the selling of milk and vegetables, supplying the needs of the local town; and I know their families now to have given up keeping cows altogether, even for their own needs, and to buy milk and vegetables that arrive in that town from Dublin. Thrift and work, and all that those two things mean, seem to have gone from our people. I think Deputy Carter will agree with that; he represents a constituency not unlike my own. That is the kind of inspiration and leadership that a Government should be giving. Nobility of sentiment is not enough and the expression of such noble sentiments is not enough.

May I tell the Deputy that a scheme is being put into operation, the Small Farmers Incentive Bonus Scheme——

It is not.

With all due respect, it is designed primarily for those people who are nearly viable, to make them viable with the assistance of the local advisory services operating through the local agricultural committee.

I am just three days back from a pretty extensive survey of a countryside that should be benefiting from the aims and objects which the Parliamentary Secretary says are in practice.

The scheme is in operation just this month. It has been advertised. The Deputy could hardly see its benefits in three days.

I do not think I will see them in ten years time if the scheme is being operated on a basis that is not broad and well financed, for a start. I can do the journey from Blacksod Bay to Dublin, up and down, and indeed every road with which I am familiar, into Sligo or Galway, and I see no difference, in, say, the past 20 years, with the exception of an odd field that you would know was reclaimed, and a very odd one. I see no difference in the pattern of production except a decrease, more rushes, and less work being done. If the scheme that the Parliamentary Secretary has just talked about and that is in operation this month is able to combat that, nobody will welcome it more than I.

In the field of education, no one can deny that certain progress is being made, but it is being done in an irritating way, piecemeal, with means tests and all kinds of difficulties involved in the administration of it. Any scheme of education that brings into the mail bags of Deputies the kind of letters I am getting from students who are starting and students who are half-way through, about difficulties which are not really insurmountable, is unsatisfactory ab initio. I know that progress in any scheme, whether it is educational or anything else, is not easy to obtain at the very beginning, but this scheme in relation to university education is not well conceived; nor do I think that the abandonment of the old county scholarship idea, the abandonment of incentive, is a good thing. However, we shall come to that on the Committee Stage of the relevant Bill, where we shall be able to deal with it in more detail and, I should hope, more effectively.

Deputy Dowling expressed the hope that industrial relations would improve; so do I. However, there is something wrong somewhere when there is so much industrial unrest. Deputy Dowling advised would-be strikers to consider the effects a strike would have upon, say, hospitals, housewives and others affected by strikes in essential services. The time comes when it is too late to be considering the effects that a strike would have. The Department of Labour should rouse itself, get busy on examining the causes, and become particularly equipped in putting the finger on potential causes. That is a field of activity in which the Department of Labour could best occupy itself, to detect potential causes and prevent industrial unrest.

A lot of industrial unrest is associated with money and the demand for more money. I find it extremely difficult not to be in sympathy with people who are on pegged-down wages in these times when the cost of living is extremely high and very difficult for the average family. I know of families that earn very big money, but there are also the families where there is only one earner, that is, the husband. To feed and clothe people in these times is not an easy thing to do adequately and to the satisfaction of all, so that you will have a well-fed and well-dressed family and a happy home. If people are not able to do that on the income they receive, then I can well see merit in their agitation. They have been referred to here as agitators in regard to housing and other matters. The word "agitator" does not appear to commend itself to Government supporters. I suppose in their time Griffith was described as an agitator, James Connolly was described as an agitator, Pearse and Collins were described as agitators. All of the men who brought about the success story of this country politically would have been described as agitators in their time.

It is not a good thing to treat people like this, to call them agitators, to call them fellow travellers, to call them ill-informed and so on. Meet them and discuss with them all these matters. As for statistics. I firmly hold the view that you can do anything with statistics, can make them tell any kind of story you want them to tell if you can adapt them enough and get a percentage enough for a certain time and then stop at a certain time in a certain year. I am simply concerned with the hard fact of what the pay packet contains and what the pay packet has to do. Then you are back to our old friend Micawber: if it does not do the job the result is misery; if it does, then you have happiness, well satisfied families and happy families.

I do not understand why the relief under Schedule A tax is postponed to 1969-70. The Minister said that it involved a lot of preparatory work but it only means not including it in the tax form. Leave it out. I do not quite follow the abolition of Schedule B tax. The farmers will probably be able to understand the value of that when they come to be assessed. In regard to health, I am glad to see the great conversion mentioned in the Minister's speech. His statement that the feasibility of insurance to cover health, thereby removing it, partially at any rate but not entirely, from the rates, is being examined is very welcome indeed. It is the great conversion. I must say it was brave of the Minister, in face of its rejection by Deputy MacEntee at one time and by the former Taoiseach, Deputy Lemass, at one time, as being unworkable. Now it is being examined with a view to its ultimate application.

Let me refer to the housing situation for one moment. Whatever about the people who come on television, whatever about the people who speak at Abbey Street corner, whatever about the people who speak about the shortage of houses, we in this House, the Fine Gael Party and also the Labour Party are being blamed by Deputy Dowling for creating the housing situation. I could easily dispense with all criticism from all of those sources but I cannot dispense with the fact that the Lord Mayor of this city was the other day surrounded outside the Mansion House by people who came, admittedly by mistake, looking for houses. There were 1,604 people looking for some 288 houses. That is a shortage in anybody's language. Dealing with the matter in relation to taxation, I am certain that if the money was required for housing, not alone in Dublin but all over the country, in order to make a real attack on the shortage, if the people were asked to make a sacrifice by way of taxation to supply houses, they would do it and they would help their fellowmen by making the small contribution required to get the amount.

This year local authorities are being assisted to the extent of an increase of £2.3 millions. I wonder how far that will go towards improving the situation. Will it not keep the thing just at the regular rate and will that £2.3 millions not be eaten up by increasing costs as time goes on? I believe it will. It is not enough. It is a bad thing that at some stage some Minister for Finance does not say: "Look, we need money for houses. The situation is very bad. There are one, two, three, four and five citizens, and sometimes more, living in one room and therefore we must try to get rid of this situation. We will make an all-out drive either by way of special loan or taxation". I am quite certain the people would respond suitably and satisfactorily.

No effort has been made to deal with the great burden of rates. The rating system is a very old system and any system that is old is naturally becoming out of date, becoming unbearable and unjust, because you can have a house with one, two, three or four wage earners in it, say, in a town, who have no difficulty in paying their rates; next door there may be a widow with young children who has only her widow's pension but she is also subject to rates. I know that the local authorities have provisions under which recipients of social welfare benefits are not asked to pay rates but the local authorities are doing something else, certainly in County Mayo: they are issuing writs or civil bills for unpaid rates in respect of social welfare recipients and then marking judgment and this is decreasing the value of the property. The people with the big rates problem are those in towns and cities, particularly in smaller towns because the smaller town has now changed by reason of the change to marts instead of fair days, and indeed many dealers are going to the farms and people are not coming into the towns as much as they used to. Some towns are thriving while others are not. The rates present a very great difficulty to people in the kind of towns I have mentioned.

Another aspect of taxation is the results that flow from it. I have noticed recently in trade journals the usual accounts of plaintiffs and defendants, the amount of the debt, the judgment recovered and the amounts for costs and I now see that the Collector General of Income Tax, a well-known name, is the plaintiff in many of these actions. These are civil bills and writs perhaps for arrears of income tax or surtax. It may well be that the man in a good business who is doing all right suddenly appears as a defendant in one of these trade journals on foot of a judgment and his credit is seriously impaired by that happening.

We all know that a debt of this kind does not really go to the creditworthiness of the person who owes the money. Owing the Revenue Commissioners £100 and refusing to pay it, or holding up payment of it, is not the same thing as, say, a trader down the country owing £100 to a wholesale house in Dublin or elsewhere. In the latter case the £100 goes to his credit. In the other it does not, in my respectful submission, and, once he appears in the trade journal as a debtor against whom judgment has been given and costs have been recovered, his creditworthiness is then impaired and that impairment may have disastrous results. I know it is having bad results for some small traders in the West and, indeed, for one or two here in Dublin. It is a practice that should not be resorted to except in very extreme cases because it is misunderstood and does considerable damage.

This Budget is, as I see it, a patchwork from last year, the year before, and the year before that. It is certainly not inspiring. It is helpful in some cases and not very helpful in others. It does not disturb unduly—this is, I think, its greatest merit from the point of view of a government—the political calm. It is not calculated to cause great anger. Neither is it calculated to raise great hopes. By and large, I do not think it will set the country on fire economically or inspire anybody to any great heights.

In conclusion, I want to say that anything we have done here by way of voting against the increase of 2d on the gallon of petrol does not represent by any manner of means a vote calculated to deprive social welfare recipients of anything that might be coming to them. It was a vote of protest against the necessarily rising costs that must result from it where distribution is concerned and the hardship that will cause because of rising costs.

It is quite obvious that the Government have now no clear idea of where they are going or what they are doing. They know nothing about the future of the European Economic Community. All the bluffs and all the visits to London and Paris and the basing of some officials for a year in Brussels have all finished. The people just would not stand for it. It was not news any more. The Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement, accepted by us as a preliminary basis for entry into Europe, will in time have disastrous effects. At seminars and gatherings of business people all over the country, to which Government Ministers are invited, we have nothing but this grim warning about the future. One person went so far as to say that not alone is time running out but there was no time left from the point of view of the future of Irish business in the free trade area and the breaking down of the tariff wall. I understand that all tariffs will eventually be removed, as will the customs posts between here and Northern Ireland. The Leader of the Nationalist Party is, I understand, meeting the Taoiseach today. Whatever they say to each other, I hope it will bear fruit. I also hope that the time is not far distant when such talks will be on a tripartite basis between the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, the Leader of the Opposition in Northern Ireland and the Taoiseach and that the talks will be on a broader basis, a basis that will ensure better results.

This Budget, as I have said, will not achieve very much. It grows bigger every year. You rake in more and you pay out more and, while all this is happening, the national debt is increasing and its service cost is increasing. Employment is increasing. Emigration continues as before. Housing needs are pressing. People are leaving the land. Surely, in face of all that, a different kind of Budget is required? Surely a different lead should be given to our people? Above all, our people must be inspired and led towards the concept of the dignity of work, the value of production, the necessity of paying our way—all in all, the need to produce a balanced economy in which not alone will those who work and produce be adequately paid for that work and that production but that the profits from that work and that production, whether individually or at corporation level, will be able to bear the taxation necessary to look after the aged, the unemployed and others in our community in need of assistance, and that such a scheme of social welfare will not be merely another part of a social fabric in which a premium is put on idleness and work and the dignity of work relegated to second place.

I join with Deputy Lindsay in one matter which he raised here in the hope that we may be able to achieve at some stage a better pattern of farming in certain parts of the country. He referred to the giving of assistance in contradistinction to an incentive. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture reminded Deputy Lindsay that the small farm scheme might help to change the pattern. For some years now I have been interested in this and a couple of years back I was more or less instrumental in this Party in making a move to abolish or suspend employment period orders which debarred certain small farmers from assistance at certain times of the year. I was fully conscious of the obstacles in the way and, prior to making a case for the abolition of one employment period order and the suspension of the other in order to enable unemployment assistance to be extended to certain smallholders who were debarred by such orders, I had in mind the fact that assistance, or the dole, as we know it, was never designed for a rural community and that, no matter what ambition a government might have or what desire might activate a government, it could never be applied in the same way as, for example, it is applied on the industrial side.

I have gone back and read extracts from the Report of the Commission on Emigration. I have read files which were prepared on this subject by certain advocates of the incentive bonus for small farmers as opposed to those who were inclined to agree with the present system. I have read comments by Peadar O'Donnell who is an authority on small farming in the west of Ireland and of General Costello, another authority on this subject. Yet, withal, I have often wondered what is the real problem about changing this system. Admittedly, it comprises only a small part of unemployment assistance. The unemployment assistance to which I refer is the money paid throughout the year to certain small farmers. Undoubtedly, this is a thorny problem requiring deep thinking. We have yet to learn as to whether it will help or hinder the small farm incentive scheme which has now been formulated by the Government. I had hoped that, given a little time, we might be able as a Party supporting the Government to prevail on the Government to write into this incentive scheme a further incentive by putting the amount of assistance now going to this section of the community into this incentive scheme and calling it by another name.

Undoubtedly, some of our Ministers who have been dealing with this matter agree with this general aim. I assume by the way they have spoken in the past that certain members of the Opposition also agree with it. It is not always possible to find a quick solution. It is not always possible to prevail on a government to find a quick solution. Maybe there are obstacles in the way that I could not see at the time and do not see even now but I do see the point on which Deputy Lindsay expanded a few moments ago; there is inherent in unemployment assistance the danger that it may be an incentive not to work. I need not develop the point any further. We appreciate this fact and we hope that between both sides of the House a solution to this problem may ultimately be found. Whether or not it is a fact that unemployment assistance is a barrier to production, there is something in what Deputy Lindsay says.

There are a number of people who profess to interest themselves in the question of rural well-being, shall we say. There are some critics who are prepared to distort the pattern and who, whether from wishful thinking or a desire to be mischievous, are prepared to say that we have a dejected, depressed, rural community. This is not so, of course. I was glad to see published in yesterday's paper the comments of the President of the ICA, Mrs. Farrell, from Roscommon. I was glad that she dealt with this matter from a practical point of view. I do not know who would be better fitted to deal with this matter than the people living in rural Ireland, who know the conditions there, who know their neighbours and of the general pattern of farming and of living. Mrs. Farrell completely rejected some of the theoretical—I would almost say propaganda but I do not wish to be harsh—some of the theoretical writings published at the present time on life in rural Ireland. I was very glad that her statement came from a voluntary organisation and not from a political Party. If such a statement were to come from a politician he would be accused of publishing statements in order to help his political Party.

It is quite clear that the movement from the land depends in the last analysis on the rate of production on the land. This in turn depends, to some extent, on the desire of young boys and girls to engage in this production. Let may say straightway that, whether we like it or not, we must face the naked fact that there is a predisposition on the part of some young people to emigrate, a predisposition which does not always spring from economic circumstances. I could enumerate, pinpoint and give examples where young people, well placed in the rural community, decided to leave the hearthstone for no other reason than adventure. This does not apply to a large extent but I say that it applies to some extent. I had not intended to get into this subject in this debate on the Budget because it is a thorny problem. But for the fact that Deputy Lindsay referred to it, I would not be developing this point.

I am inclined to accept the arguments of men like General Costello who have practical experience of the rural pattern rather than those of persons who, shall we say, apply their own theories when speaking of the rural community. I wish to quote briefly from a short letter to the press on the subject by General Costello, dated 26th April last. The letter is headed "Employment on the Land" and states:

You report me (April 22nd) as saying in an interview with Radio Éireann that we would have only 260,000 people on the land in 1970. I have never made any such prediction, and I hope that all concerned will exert themselves to ensure that such a national calamity does not occur. The number of able-bodied men for whom there is full time employment on the land depends upon what is produced, and how production is balanced in regard to labour requirements. The range can be from 44 man-days per acre for some crops to one man-day for others. Leaving acres aside, there would be work for 10,000 men in the production of extra pigs to raise the national herd by one million. This would also create about the same amount of additional employment in supplying farmers' needs and in the processing and marketing the extra pigs. I did refer to a paper read in 1957, in which I outlined a pattern of production that is feasible if the people will it, and which would give full-time employment on the land to 400,000 men. In the same paper it was argued that "unless we quickly change the pattern of farming" there would not be economic employment for more than 260,000. It also contains the assertion that "the most serious consequences of emigration and underemployment are .... on the spirit and confidence of the people." Nothing is more conducive to emigration and a greater bar to progress than the persistent but unjustified chorus of wails that reduction in numbers on the land is inevitable.

We have set up here a wailing wall by people who live in cities, who mostly penetrate into the hinterland from the cities and provincial towns. Yet they set up a chorus of wailing and put abroad the idea that young people are leaving rural Ireland wholesale. This is not so. As I said at the outset, there are people leaving who need not leave at all.

In our scheme of pilot area development, we will at least succeed in pinpointing the better farmers in each pilot area and help them on in their production. In this way we would hope that, taken together with the small farms incentive scheme, we should be able in the next five years to make some inroads on this, shall we say, static position. I agree with Deputy Lindsay that it is bad for any country, especially a country which is so dependent on primary production as we are, to have a number of week links in the chain at the lower level. This is where, I think, a further look will have to be taken, both in the Department of Agriculture and in the Department of Lands.

Two years ago we passed a Land Act designed to try to enlist the support of ageing farmers to surrendering their land. We all know that we have a great number of ageing farmers, both bachelors and spinsters, in occupation of land which they are not able to utilise. I have no way of knowing what the present position is because I have not had time to look it up, but I am wondering if in fact those people are at all inclined to take advantage of the scheme we envisaged in this Land Act. This scheme was calculated to be a workable one to concentrate on the rearrangement of land in the areas of which I speak. If we find that those sections of the Land Act are not working, another look should be had at them to try to discover what will work in order to encourage those ageing occupiers of land to surrender it —fully compensated of course—to younger people who would be inclined to develop it.

I merely mention this matter. I do not think it is appropriate that one should go into it deeply on the Budget, but the matter was raised here—and rightly so—in relation to employment assistance. I think we should have further discussions on it to see if the "mediocre men on the back benches of Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and Labour", according to some of the pencil pushers, could evolve a further extension of the scheme to provide a solution for this rural problem.

I believe it can be done. I do not think it requires coercion. I think it can still be done by way of incentive. It is a tough problem. I would be prepared to stake my political reputation on it and I think many more Deputies would have a try. It must be done if we are to make workable the sections we inserted in the Land Act and which we hoped would be working by now. This whole matter is tied up with the pilot area scheme, the farm incentive bonus scheme and so on. It is not an easy task for any Government engaged in the day-to-day mill of administration and politics to consider these points at the time one would want them considered. It should not be beyond our powers to find a solution in this House. Certainly if we do not find a solution here, one will not be found outside. We will get help from men of experience, men who have proved their worth at home and abroad in this field. We will get their help and we should avail of their help to try to bring this matter a little further along the road towards success, shall we say, for want of a better word.

I do not think there is any such unit in terms of acres as an economic unit. It depends on the skill of the man who owns it, the work force he can command, his desire to survive, his rate of production and his integrity as a farmer in his own area. Therefore, we should not speak in terms of viable economic holdings. I would put it to what I call the academic economists that it would put them to the pin of their collar to tell me what is a viable economic holding and what size it should be. When they had coughed that up, I would bring them a little further towards developing that point and I might put them to thinking a little more deeply on this matter.

When people criticise a Government about land distribution, land acquisition, and so on, they should always bear in mind the fact that, after all, we are still a democratic unit here. We hope we will remain one. Even outside democracy, where dictators tried to solve land problems, production problems, distribution problems and food problems with a smoking gund and in concentration camps, they did not succeed. So it is a little harder than people think at first sight. In his early days before he became disillusioned—and I think he was a little bit disillusioned in the end even though his portrait is still in the Red Square—Lenin said bread and land were hard to resolve. I agree and, if he were now alive, I would say to him that neither the concentration camp nor the smoking gun will prevail.

It was difficult to contact Lenin even in his prime. You would want a smoking gun.

I went a bit far off my mark in my Budget contribution but I wanted to deal with the point made by Deputy Lindsay. He was highly critical and rather superficial on some points, but he referred to the land problems in good faith and in some depth and I wanted to reciprocate. We are all for a little more work, a little more activity and a little better sense of purpose. I shall leave it at that. Perhaps the proper place to raise this matter would be on the Vote for Lands or the Vote for Agriculture.

We have heard a good deal of criticism of the Budget, but I was looking at the Sunday Independent of 28th April and in it there is an expansive summary of the views of some members of the community on the effects they think the Budget will have. Mostly the comments are from people engaged in industry, some are in commerce, some are in the services, and more are economists but, by and large, the general consensus of opinion seems to be that in our present circumstances the Budget was well framed, well set up, well designed to achieve what we are trying to achieve having regard to outside conditions, that it was balanced and did not inflict any more taxation than was necessary to relieve social conditions. In fact it relieved the pressure of taxation at some points, in the field of death duties, and so on.

In America there is a tightening up. Not long ago the Secretary of the Treasury made an announcement threatening a repetition of the exercise of the 1930s if American politicians were not careful. In England we had a politician of the stature of Quintin Hogg saying that democracy is about to break down in England. There is a war in the Middle East, a war in the Far East and rumours of wars localised elsewhere. So this is not a bad Budget at all from the point of view of business and commerce. I think Deputy Dockrell will agree with me that he saw worse times in this country, both from the point of view of business and commerce. On both sides of the House we hope that times will get better.

This Budget is framed to achieve a better rate of progress in each sector of our industrial and cultural programme. There will never be a Budget which will not be criticised but, by and large, the consensus of opinion is that on the whole this is a well set up Budget designed to expand the economy by four per cent, which is a step forward and which, indeed, is a far better rate of expansion than the prediction for England or Europe. That is not too bad.

I also submit that following a very depressing year, if you like, when cattle exports were restricted and then stopped altogether by reason of the foot and mouth disease in Britain, and when other activities were brought almost to a standstill, we have reason to thank our stars, if not the Minister for Finance, for being able to report the progress he has reported to this House, and for being able to indicate, for the future, that this progress will not come to a halt. If we take up any paper, we can always find enough in it, I suppose, to make a speech but, in the most unlikely paper, I read recently of a trend in Britain which, I must say, appals me, a trend I hope we shall never develop, no matter how socialistic our outlook may become. I am referring to the Irish Medical Times and to a short article in it by Norman Bale in which he points out that a person in Britain with an investment which would bring him an income this year of £40,000 will pay £48,000 tax on it. I was going to say to Deputy Lindsay—fortunately, I did not—that the philosophy behind this is, of course, confiscation. I do not want to misrepresent the British Chancellor of the Exchequer and neither do I want to be misrepresented. I do not see any progress in confiscating.

It all comes back again to what Deputy Lindsay said about work. If the country is not able to work its way out of its economic difficulties, I do not think it can confiscate its way out of its economic difficulties. I hope we have nothing lurking in our finance legislation which will prevent those people from coming in here with their money. It may be deemed "hot" money but it is money that could be used here. We should welcome those people in here and not ever attempt, when they do come in, to tax them to the extent to which they are being taxed on the far side. I regret to say this. I do not say this in any spirit of undue levity. I say this in all sincerity. We do business with the Englishman. We have always appreciated him as a businessman. Whatever else we might say about him, as a politician or otherwise, his word in business was his bond. I think, in this regard, he was better than his counterpart in most countries. That is why I say one would regret to see the beginning of a period of confiscation in Britain—because this is what it means to a man who is getting an income of £40,000 this year and who must pay £48,000 in tax on it. He would have to sell some of his capital holding to do this and it could, therefore, be deemed to be taken from him.

I want to come back, for a moment, to the muddled picture we have at the present time on the labour front. I do not want to muddle it any more. It is a thorny problem at the present time. Any outsider looking in on us would wonder where we are going in this regard and what ultimately will be, as the countryman might say, the upshot of all this unofficial agitation. Is it a lack of communication ? A lot of people are prepared to say that it is. Is it a lack of leadership? A number of other people are prepared to say that this is so. Is it a lack of proper planning? Is it a lack of discipline? Is it a lack of a sense of purpose ? What is it ? We should all knuckle down to it, no matter on what side of the House we may be, to discover what it really is. Remember that the floor of this House, ultimately, is the place where it should be resolved, if possible, by legislation or otherwise, but it should be talked about. There are people abroad today who would love to see this power passing from the floor of the House to the marginal men who would hold it for a short time and let it fall. I am not saying this from a political motive. I am not saying it from the point of view of trying to gain popularity. I am on dangerous ground and I know it. I am saying that it behoves all of us, as politicians, to try to encourage a solution to this muddled picture of labour relations.

I know very decent men in the labour movement, men of integrity, branch secretaries, men whose word I would accept any day. On the other hand, I know quite a few men whose word one would accept on the other front, as well. Therefore, it seems to me that we should, first of all, try to find a solution to our labour problems in the semi-State companies —and find it quickly. It is quite possible that, if we did, other fronts, shall we say, might follow. We have just reached a point when we can do great damage to the political and economic fabric of this country if we continue on our present path. Whether or not there are people who would like to see the fall of freedom, at any rate, for my time in it—whatever time is left—I should prefer to live in a democracy : I should prefer to be free. The tactics now being adopted here are the tactics that undermined freedom in other countries. We all lived through this and we know it. It is time these tactics came to an end.

In his Budget Statement, the Minister referred to the aid being given for education and health. At this point I do not propose in a speech off the cuff to go into these matters in detail, on either education or health. I shall leave that until the Estimates come up. It is sufficient to say that one appreciates the strides that are being made in expanding our educational services, if I may put it that way, and any improvements which may be made in our health services will also be welcome. We hope we may be able to go into the ramifications of these Departments in greater detail when the Estimates come up and I do not propose to detain the House any longer.

We in the Labour Party consider the Budget to be, to say the least, lacking in imagination. The Minister went back to the traditional methods of raising money in so far as spirits, cigarettes and petrol were taxed and the old age pensioners got 7s 6d to bring the amount they are asked to live on up to the princely sum of £3 5s per week. However, even with those increases, they are being asked once again to wait some months before payment is made.

I think the Minister has succeeded at last in really convincing these people who are depending on social welfare that, as far as the Fianna Fáil Party are concerned, social welfare is at the very end of their list of priorities. One would get the impression that the increases in social welfare given to, I may say, a relatively small category of social welfare recipients were given only because it is traditional to try to make some improvement in this respect and that is why Fianna Fáil bothered at all. They are not convinced, although why is beyond me, of the very great poverty and need that exist among many of our people today. There is this false idea that we are an affluent society and that everyone is enjoying a happy, comfortable way of life.

This is undoubtedly not so and, apart altogether from what are the obvious cases of hardship, there is another category, and there is a considerable number of people within that category, where real poverty exists, particularly in the city areas among families of anything over four children. When we consider the number of children that come from these large families we will realise the extent of this hardship. Over one quarter of a million of the children of this country today under 16 years of age come from families of six children or more—one quarter of a million.

The Minister for Finance, particularly, is a Deputy from a Dublin constituency, a constituency that could be said to be representative of a crosssection of our people. There are a large number of families in the Minister's constituency who fall within this category, where a husband and wife have four or six children of schoolgoing age or younger, under 16 years of age, and the husband earning anything from, say, £12 to £15 or £16 a week. These people are finding it very difficulty to make ends meet and the Minister has completely ignored the opportunity that was given him in this Budget to lighten the burden imposed on these people.

When we say that a family of four children here would get 18/- by way of children's allowances and in Northern Ireland the same size family would qualify for 49/-, we see just how far behind we are with regard to social welfare. The only people the Minister could find it in his heart to give relief to are people who, in my opinion, least require it. He has for the second year in succession been able to relieve the burden on people who are subject to surtax. No relief is given for the ordinary working person. If he is single, he is subject to taxation on amounts over £6 a week. I cannot understand why the Fianna Fáil Government persist in ignoring the wishes of the people with regard to our treatment of social welfare recipients.

There is no question that increases cannot be given unless the money is taken from somewhere else. No one expects the Minister to pull money out of a hat or out of the air to increase these benefits. But it is not a question of money: it is a refusal to take the necessary steps to raise the money. It is a misinterpretation of the wishes of the people in this respect. I not only merely mean it but I say that I honestly believe we are suffering from a sense of national guilt over this question of our old, our infirm, our widows and other people who fall into this category.

It is time the Minister stopped talking about White Papers and social welfare and got down to really tackling the problem. There are other countries which are more or less in the same position as ourselves but they have tackled this problem and have found ways of raising the necessary revenue. When we consider the question of insurance stamps for employer and employee, the employer and employee pay approximately the same amount. In other countries in Europe the contribution from the employer is anything from twice to four times the amount expected from the employee. I should like to know from the Minister what he has in mind with regard to the increase in the insurance contribution from the employee which he mentioned during the Budget Statement. Will the employee be asked to pay more and, if so, how much more? We in the Labour Party have advocated for a long time certain steps which we think could relieve this situation.

In Europe, also, they have found it desirable to impose what they call a payroll tax, the money raised in that way being used solely towards the relief of people depending on social welfare. A payroll tax in this country of even two per cent on employers would realise £11 million. Our total expenditure on children's allowances is in the region of £10 million annually. I assure the Minister, not to score a political point but as a statement of fact, that there is a large degree of family poverty in this country today among people who have anything from four to eight children all less than 16 years of age. We as a community are failing to give the necessary assistance to those people to enable them to make ends meet.

I do not intend to delay the House. There has been a tremendous amount of repetition in the majority of these debates. I do not intend to add to it. However, there is a problem which affects a small number of people right under our noses and I should like to ask the Minister to have a look at it. It affects some of the people employed in this House in subordinate grades. It would not do any harm if the Minister examined the situation of people employed in this House during periods of anything from 12 to 16 hours of duty. They cannot apparently leave the House. They are obliged to stay here during those periods. There are no canteen facilities——

If I might interrupt the Deputy, this is a minor matter which the Deputy relevantly could raise on an Estimate but certainly not on the Budget.

I accept your ruling.

He has already raised it.

That is fair enough if the Parliamentary Secretary does something more for the old age pensioners.

I have been listening to the debate and have read with interest other speeches made earlier on, including the defences made by various Deputies on the Government side and criticisms from these Benches, from Independents and Labour. I do not think this is a bad Budget. I do not think anybody has said it is a bad Budget. It is a Budget which is marking time and it is very hard to fathom the Government's intentions in certain directions from it. However, there are certain aspects of it which I should like to discuss.

Particularly, I should like to discuss Government policy in so far as it is revealed to us by the Budget. The longer one lives the more one realises that policy is the forerunner of action and, if we could see in this Budget the policy of the Government, we could get an idea of what is likely to happen in the future. In the main, though, the Budget is a standstill one and the reason why I and some of the people on these benches say it is not a bad Budget is that we are so relieved higher taxation is not being imposed on us that we are apt to forget that with the present buoyancy of revenue we could expect to get a greater degree of alleviation.

I shall deal very briefly with the social welfare side of the Budget. We all welcome the increases given to the social services generally. My Party have been advocating such action and indeed the Government have carried it out in various Budgets to a certain degree. However, they have not really done what ought to have been done for many of our older people.

At this stage I wish to emphasise that, listening to speeches, one would think sometimes that the population of Ireland is composed mainly of old age pensioners, widows, and children of families which number eight, or ten, or more. Though such big families exist, and we wish to help them, I should like that we would concentrate on a more forward policy, namely, help for industry. I do not want to be taken as suggesting that that would be done at the expense of old age pensioners or that sort of thing. The point I am trying to make is that nationally and politically I should like to see us urging on the wheels of industry more than concentrating our thoughts on the more unfortunate sections of the population.

I am afraid I am putting that badly. What I feel is that sometimes we ought to be talking about increasing our industrial output more than talking about helping the less fortunate sections of our population. If we can increase trade, increase business to a great extent, some of the social services we provide at the present moment, which are costing us a good deal of money, will be taken care of in more employment, higher wages and better conditions generally.

In this Budget mention was made of indirect taxation. The Minister spoke about the system of added value tax that has come in in various countries. He told us he had a committee working on it. I will say this to him: we have been promised from time to time by the Government reports and White Papers on such matters as that and we wait a very long time and, sometimes when we get the report or the White Paper, conditions have changed. We will anxiously await the White Paper on this system of taxation and also the promised report on company taxation. I say to the Minister that we must get down to understanding these things but certainly the first thing is to get the White Paper and the report and then consider how far the recommendations made in them can be of value to this country.

I mentioned the question of policy and why I thought policy in this scheme was of such great and vital importance. In this Budget, which many of us are thankful for less for what it did than for what it might have done on us in the way of taxation and did not, taxation has been levied on beer, spirits, and cigarettes. I do not think those sections of industry generally can bear much more. Certainly with regard to policy—and I welcome this—the Minister made slight alleviations in the field of surtax and of company taxation. These matters are very complicated to discuss on this Resolution and I do not propose to go into them but this question of corporations profits tax and directors' remuneration shows that the Government are realising that it is not a good thing to kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

It was thought years ago that industry and business generally were almost inexhaustible sources from which money could be drawn for the various services the State has to provide for its citizens but in fact we now know that we will very rapidly run into a situation in which the incentive disappears for a business or for private individuals to increase their earnings and thereby increase the wealth of the community generally, both through greater employment and higher wages as well as making savings available for the general benefit of the community. That was the old way of adding to the wealth of a community and it is still, as far as I know, the only way it can be done but, with the very high rate of taxation, which in the case of a company of any sort is either fully 50 per cent of its profits or approaching that because the corporations profits tax starts at a very low level and catches all sorts of companies that are not particularly and would not count themselves particularly large, the effect on industry and business generally—I think the Government are aware of this but it cannot be stressed too often— when an enormous amount of profit is being taken away—"hived off" is one of the phrases used—in taxation, a company or an individual will be very loath to engage in any enterprise that is in the smallest degree hazardous for fear of losing what he has because, if he loses his money, the Government will not give it to him but a large proportion of what he does make, and too large a proportion, will be taken back in taxation from the profit and so business can be and is in many countries paralysed.

Deputy Carter referred to some article about a man whose income was £40,000 a year and who paid £48,000 tax. I do not understand that but I will tell the House this: last week I was in England. I have a very wealthy friend there who pays an enormous amount of money in taxation. He told me that he bought a few acres of land around his house, only about five or six acres. He sets those fields to a local farmer and he said: "If I accept any rent from the local farmer, I will pay 28/- in the £ in taxation." I do not understand that, but that is what he told me and he said: "What I am doing is I am getting paid in kind. I am getting milk and eggs instead." That, of course, is penal taxation and it is more than that—it is appropriation— because it is taking the capital away.

What incentive has that individual to increase his commercial enterprise? That is what it gets down to. That man is obviously a very wealthy man and he probably has not the incentive that more ordinary people have to increase his wealth but he would have an incentive to increase business. His companies are equally hit with high taxation. That is the sort of thing that we do not want to see developing to too great an extent in this country because, if we do, we will find ourselves inevitably in a system in which we are operating State Socialism without in fact having ever voted for it or ever perhaps wished to arrive in that position.

It is obvious that beer and spirits, those classical objects of taxation, have reached the point at which the law of diminishing returns will set in, if it has not set in already. I think the Minister referred to the fact that it had set in with Irish whiskey, that, in other words, the last increase on Irish spirits brought a corresponding drop in consumption, so that, if business is to be left in a position where it can have any incentive, it cannot bear a greater degree of taxation, nor can those classics, such as beer and spirits.

This is where I get back to what I originally said. It is interesting to see the policy enshrined in the statement that the Minister is looking into added tax value. I do not know exactly how this would work out. I know it is a great nuisance to industry. Those complicated tax systems cost more money but they are better than something that is hitting industry generally. There is also the fact that now, with many of our population earning good and high wages—we know this from the amount of consumer goods which are produced, purchased and sold—there is a great deal of money spent on a lot of things which otherwise would not have been spent on them. I do not mean that the people necessarily spend this money but that they have money to spend on luxury items or, if they are not luxury items, items which are not necessaries. Those items can certainly bear a degree of taxation so it will be of great interest to see what the Minister proposes. We will await that White Paper on company taxation with not only interest but with impatience. I say to the Minister that we will call on him to produce it as soon as possible.

I am glad to see that the Minister has made an increased contribution to the arts. They are very important. We are now committed to a great deal of expenditure on education and this is bound in the long run to increase the appreciation of the arts which exists amongst our people. Therefore, this extra contribution will be a help in that way, just as a century ago when universal free education came in, even limited as it was, when people learned to read and write, it was prophesied that a higher degree of literacy would lead to an increased degree of appreciation of literature and the spread of knowledge.

It has done that. Some of us may wish it had acted to a greater degree. As the years go on, with increased higher education, a very real demand and a greater appreciation of the arts will follow and it is a good thing to see that happening. I might briefly say that after all we do not educate our children, will not educate them and have no intention of educating them to be little robots. We want them to grow up into balanced human beings with an appreciation and an understanding of the world around them with all its beauties. In that connection I am greatly interested in the art of music. I am a member of the Kennedy Concert Hall Committee but I do not see any mention about it in this Budget. I was hoping there would be some mention about it or that some money would be set aside for the Kennedy Concert Hall. There is a tremendous need for that because no country has a right to call itself civilised unless it can really do something for its citizens in the realm of music. That concert hall would make a tremendous difference to music in this country.

Music is an art and it should be encouraged. Our people should be given a chance to appreciate and to study it. The final aim of our study of music is that the men and women who have studied it would then appreciate it. Of course, in the climate we have in this country, you cannot just have music in the open air. Therefore, you have to have worthy halls in which to listen to the music. That is very necessary and I would ask the Minister if he would say something about what he proposes to do with the Kennedy Concert Hall. I know this does not arise on the Budget but I would also ask him when he proposes to call a meeting of the committee.

I will finish on that note and say that on the whole this is not a bad Budget but we must face up to as a people, and we must understand, the question of direct and indirect taxation. A large number of our people are farmers and they do not pay direct taxation according to income but they pay in various other ways. They pay highly. Industry in Ireland, and this is something which successive Governments have been working on, is increasing as against other ways of earning one's living. It has succeeded pretty well but the way to increase industry still further is not to tax it out of existence but resolutely to face the fact that we can get a much more balanced practice with industry paying a fair and indeed a high rate of taxation in the future and the citizens bearing indirect taxation and the poorer people, in order to alleviate perhaps the cost of indirect taxation on them, being given increased allowances. If we get our economy working in that fashion and if we get our taxation methods and our taxation policy working on those lines, in a few years this country will be even to a greater extent than it is now the pride and envy of other countries.

This Budget is one that has been welcomed by the vast majority of the citizens. In the short period during which the present Minister has been Minister for Finance, it is widely accepted that he is doing a brilliant job. There is sufficient evidence of his brilliance in this Ministry in the Budget Statement he put before the House a short while ago. When one considers the difficulties that exist throughout nearly every nation in the world, all the turmoil, difficulties of race relationships, difficulties between workers and employers, there seems to be a great air of tension in many developed economies.

Even though we are an island, economically speaking, one cannot survive in modern trading conditions as a separate entity, as an island. It would not be possible for us to develop the full resources of our country if we were to maintain a policy of self-sufficiency, providing for all our needs ourselves. We might be able to do it but the standard of living certainly would not be very high and much of our resources would be completely untapped. So with all this turmoil, the disturbed and unsettled conditions existing in the world today, one must consider how such a situation affects our own economy. We have trading relations, great or small, with nearly every developed country and surely they must play some part in our situation. Taking this factor into consideration it is rather remarkable that we can say at this stage in our development, in this year and at this time, that our Minister for Finance was able, for the second year in succession, to provide us with an expansionist Budget.

The progress our economy has made in the past 12 months is truly remarkable. Very many difficulties played on our economy from outside, but despite this, through good management on the part of the Government, through the co-operation of various elements in our economy, progress was made at a very rapid pace. Our growth rate in the past year was something over four per cent. In actual fact, I think we lead Europe in this growth rate. We may have heard statements made that we lead Europe in other matters not so desirable but the best manner in which we can express our development is by being able to say with full knowledge of the facts that we have the greatest growth rate of any country in Europe at present.

If there is credit going for development, who better to receive it than those responsible for the general management of the whole economy, and the man in the driver's seat in this case is our Minister for Finance whom I compliment? I hope he can continue in that way and that all forces will work favourably towards further growth and development.

It is quite evident, and this is something that has taken some time to develop, that there is a social conscience among our people. This is a very good thing and something one would expect in a Christian country. It was brought home to me very forcibly quite recently when I attended a debate between leaving certificate boys and girls and one of the main threads running through all the speeches was their desire to help the less well off sections of our community. In that respect the Budget has been more than fair. The increase has been described as exceptional and I think nobody has denied that. Knowing the tremendous cost to the country of even a half-crown increase to social welfare recipients, to increase benefits in one year by 7s 6d is truly remarkable. Yet, it is not all we would like to see and I do not think anybody would agree that these classes are getting enough at this stage but, in view of the cost involved, it was remarkable that we could give an increase in social welfare benefits of 7s 6d in one year.

There are other benefits for that section of the community in the Budget and they have all been warmly received. As has been said time and again by speakers for this Party, this is, and always will be our policy—as far as possible to extend and develop and increase benefit to that section of the community which is least able to help itself.

One of the biggest developments in the economy in the past 12 or 18 months has been our progress in the educational field. It is costing a large amount of money but the Government have shown great courage in setting about the improvements that have been under way now for some months. Great credit is due to them for the wonderful implementation of the free post-primary education scheme and especially in relation to the transport scheme. The name of the late Minister, Deputy O'Malley, will be forever remembered for his courage and the manner in which he so successfully introduced that scheme to the country.

I think at the time he made that speech in Dún Laoghaire he took not alone Deputies and his own Party but the people of the country unawares. The sceptics in the Opposition Parties at that time did not believe he was sincere. I remember that on one television programme on which I accompanied the Minister, he was challenged on this point and he said he would resign from office if the scheme was not in operation in the following September. There was no need for him to resign, as every word of his promise was completely fulfilled. Yet we hear nothing now from the Opposition of their scepticism at that time. We do not hear them withdrawing the statements they then made and admitting that they were wrong and that the Minister was right. It makes one wonder about the sincerity of much of the speeches made in this House when the Opposition Party take up points of view which are opposite to those expressed by the Government for one purpose only, so that they can seem to be seen to be opposing, purely and simply for the sake of opposing.

This is regrettable because it is not constructive, especially as regards those committed to carry out the development. However, I suppose that is how things will be until the Opposition become a little more enlightened on these matters. One could quote statements from Fine Gael and indeed Labour's former leaders and present members down through the years spelling doom and disaster for this country. Yet, here we are today with the fastest growing economy in Europe and we are still being told by some of the Fine Gael speakers that we are on the road to disaster. This is the line of thought promulgated by Opposition speakers. One would imagine that they would be only too anxious to push the Government higher and higher and faster and faster along the road to development and that they would be suggesting better schemes and forcing the pace, knowing that they would not be responsible for carrying them out, but at least they would keep the Government on their toes; but rather than that they adopt a very negative approach and continue to belittle these schemes, these improvements, that are announced. There are some sectors of our economy in which many improvements could take place. There are many things we should like to do which are not being done yet. There are many things I should like to see done which it may not be possible to achieve at the present time, but we will continue to aim towards them.

As a member of a local authority, I should like to agree with the statements made by other members who are Deputies here as regards the tremendous burden of rates on local authorities. I know there is a commission studying this question at the moment and I hope that, when the final reports are published, the Government will be able to take immediate action on them. There is the nigger in the woodpile which is causing all the trouble in regard to local rates, the question of carrying the health charges. This has been mentioned ad nauseam on every side of the House and one can only hope that appropriate action will be taken in the near future.

There are tremendous burdens on members of local authorities, heavy pressures from local groups set up in various county council areas, development associations and such like, all interested in developing their own environment. These people are doing very good work voluntarily, in most cases hindered by lack of finance. I should like to see more of the money that is being spent by local authorities being directed into the development of local amenity schemes for the improvement of the areas for which the councils are responsible, rather than that they should have to carry what should be a national charge such as the health services.

In regard to health, I have felt very strongly for some time, and it will be no harm if I mention it now, that either the Minister for Health or the Minister for Education should have a particular responsibility for sport. We have been very negligent in the sphere of recreational activities. There are a very large number of different sporting organisations throughout the country, all of which are doing a national service in providing amenities and recreations for the growing children. It helps to build healthy bodies and healthy minds; it helps to keep them occupied and to keep them off the streets and away from the devilment in which they might otherwise find themselves in their early formative years. There is no financial assistance given by the State to these organisations. The main grant that is paid is in the case of athletes who may qualify to compete at the Olympic Games and in that case it is only 50 per cent of what the Irish Olympic Committee can collect. This is very embarrassing. I am a member of the Irish Amateur Swimming Association. There are swimmers who would probably qualify for competition at the Olympic Games and the biggest difficulty that confronts the executive of that Association at the moment is how such a scattered body can come together and raise enough money to send swimmers as far away as Mexico.

There is a lot of work being done by associations such as the Swimming achieved by exhibiting live two factions their hand to fund raising as well as all the other activities that occupy them is just a bit too much. If there were some encouragement from the State by way of making grants available to sporting associations or societies, it would help to improve the amenities that are available and ensure that, where good athletes come forward, they will not be short of the proper competition through lack of finance. There are many dedicated people in athletics, rowing, swimming, tennis, or any other game that one wishes to mention, who are working voluntarily, training youths, and helping them to improve at their sport. We know that, when a good athlete turns up in any particular sport, he acts as an encouragement to the weaker ones to stick at it and to improve. The star athletes, therefore, should be given every opportunity of competing at the highest standard and this necessarily means travelling in many cases. I hope that the Taoiseach will give some thought to this matter some day in the future. He is a national sporting figure and will always be remembered for his own feats on the sporting field. He fully understands all the work that goes into the running of voluntary sporting organisations. I hope that in some future Budget we shall see included financial assistance for sporting organisations throughout the country.

Hear, hear.

I am glad to hear Deputy L'Estrange agreeing with me. He was once a long distance runner.

And is a long distance talker since.

The Deputy said that. He knows the tremendous amount of training that goes into any sport and the need for encouragement from the State. There is encouragement all right but not of a practical kind. No proper facilities are being provided by the State. There was a step forward by the Department of Education in providing physical education teachers and making a rule that gymnasia must be provided in all new secondary schools. This was a very progressive step but, by providing the gymnasia, you are encouraging children to take part in sporting activities and, if the facilities for sporting activities are not provided, the children will be frustrated in the long run.

On the question of industrial development, it has been repeatedly stated over the years by some of our small businessmen that the foreigner gets all the grants and that, if your name is Irish and you are connected with an Irish concern, you will not get a grant. Of course, I never really believed that, because the facilities available for the foreigner were also available for the Irishman, if he wished to take advantage of them. However, the type of development in which he would have involved himself was foreign to this country, if you like, and necessitated the introduction of foreign companies into the country who had the techniques. In saying that, I should like to compliment the Minister for Industry and Commerce on the Small Industries Plan which was announced about 12 months ago. In my experience, this scheme has overcome that difficulty of people thinking they could not get grants and then complaining that you have to be a foreigner to get a grant. This scheme has overcome that because in my own constituency, and I can speak from experience there, any person with any type of industrial concern or project, or any type of industrial development, who wants to expand his business has merely to contact the local county development officer—who has done a fantastic job in Galway—who vets the proposal and then presents it to the county development team who make recommendations and submit them to the IDA for grant purposes.

I know several small industries employing perhaps five, 15 or 20 men who are extremely grateful to the Minister for introducing this scheme which gives them the opportunity to expand. Their biggest difficulty was lack of capital for expansion and for obtaining new machinery. This is now being made available to them and it is something that will help in the best possible way to increase industrial employment. We all know how necessary industrial employment is with the consistent drift from the land.

In this regard, I noticed in this debate that the Fine Gael Party have now recognised this as being something over which the Government have very little control. Deputy Clinton referred to the matter yesterday. I am pleased that Fine Gael have at last seen the light and that they are prepared to state the true facts. Whatever we can do to stem this drift will be worthwhile. Countries throughout the world are doing this and there is no reason why we should not do the same here. Industries will have to supply additional jobs if we ever hope to achieve full employment. Our only hope lies in industry. This scheme, the small industries plan, is working well and I wish it every success. I should like to compliment the Minister for Industry and Commerce on introducing it and I should also like to pay very special tribute to our county development officer in Galway, Mr. Duke, who has done a fantastic job for the small industries in the area, given them every encouragement and has presented their cases to the IDA.

Maidir le Roinn na Gaeltachta, tá an-obair ar fad déanta ag an Teachta Pádraig Faulkner ó chuaigh sé isteach sa Roinn sin. Mar an gcéanna, is éachtach an obair áta á dhéanamh ag Gaeltarra Éireann ó ghabhadár chuca na cumhachtaí nua, cumhachtaí atá á n-úsáid acu mar mhaithe le muintir na Gaeltachta. Tá an obair seo an-tábhachtach agus tá dul chun cinn an-mhór déanta i nGaeltacht Chonamara. Tá a fhios agam féin faoi cheithre nó cúig monarcha nua atá le tógáil sa Ghaeltacht sin. Molaim an obair sin go mór. Molaim Aire na Gaeltachta as ucht na scéime agus tá súil agam go mbeidh rath ar na hiarrachtaí. Ba mhór an sásamh domsa é gurb fhéidir obair a chur ar fáil sa Ghaeltacht agus tá ár mbuíochas tuillte ag an Aire agus ag an Rialtas.

Tá tábhacht faoi leith ag baint le hiascaireacht sa Ghaeltacht. Fé mar is eol do gach Teachta ar imeall na mara atá beagnach gach áit sa Ghaeltacht suite agus tá cuid mór de na daoine ag teacht i dtír ar an iascaireacht. Tá an-teacht isteach le fáil acu ón iascaireacht.

Tá deagh-obair á déanamh ag Bord Iascaigh Mhara chun an iascaireacht a chur ar aghaidh agus is trua nach bhfuil an Rialtas sásta fós a thuilleadh airgid a shuncáil sa tionscal sin tré dheontas ceart a thabhairt don Bhord chun a chur ar a chumas a bhfuil le déanamh acu a dhéanamh i gceart. Ach níos mó airgid a thabhairt do Bhord Iascaigh Mhara déanfar an dul chun cinn. Tuigeann muintir na Gaeltachta cúrsaí iascaireachta. Tá siad oilte sa ghnó agus ina theannta sin tá spéis acu san obair. Do mholfainn a thuilleadh airgid a sholáthar don iascaireacht chun í a chur ar bhonn láidir. Sna trí bliana ó tháinig mé isteach sa Teach so níl mórán méadú ar an méid airgid a cuiriodh ar fáil do Bhórd Iascaigh Mhara agus tá sé de rún daingean agam tagairt a dhéanamh don scéal seo go dtí go mbeidh an-fheabhas uirthi. Ceapaim nach bhfuil an Stát ag tabhairt na cabhrach is cóir a thabhairt don tionscal seo.

Maidir leis an dtuarasóireacht, tá an dul chun cinn déanta sa Ghaeltacht agus tá áthas orm go bhfuil a thuilleadh airgid curtha ar fáil chun an obair sin a chur ar aghaidh. Tá a lán tithe ósta á dtógáil agus tá obair fhónta á tabhairt do mhuintir na Gaeltachta.

I am disappointed that the Minister was not able to grant parity of pensions to all State pensioners in this Budget. I was hoping that he would improve the lot of State widows. The widows of gardaí are paid very poor pensions by the State. This is a matter which should trouble our conscience more. Other wives of State servants are left in a very poor way on the death of their husbands. This is a national problem which should have been tackled long before now. I am disappointed that it has not been tackled even in this Budget. This is a matter that has been brought to the attention of the Government on numerous occasions.

Take the case of a State employee who is outside the middle income group or the £1,200 that is quoted as the qualifying income limit for social welfare contribution. I have known cases where the widows of men who had been over that limit were left absolutely penniless. These women were young and had young families. The houses which they occupied had been recently purchased and there were heavy outgoings to be paid in the early stages. The husband died young and there was no State pension apart from a year's salary or some such payment which did not help to any great extent.

There should be a compulsory national pension fund to which all persons getting married should be obliged to contribute. I do not like the idea of adding more stamps to the social welfare system but I do know that these people would be quite happy to pay into a pension fund, even if it were compulsory. For the national good, the benefit of the entire community, it would have to be compulsory. A man of 25 years of age who is getting married will not believe that he might be dead before reaching the age of 35. If the insurance man does not succeed in selling him a life insurance policy and if that man dies before reaching 40 years of age his widow will find herself in very serious financial difficulty if she has a young family.

I have discussed this matter with the Minister for Social Welfare and I understand that some thought is being given to it in the Department but they are very slow to produce a concrete scheme to cover such cases. At the moment these people are completely at the mercy of their own decision as to whether or not to take out life insurance and thus ensure that their families will be catered for.

A large percentage of the community are covered by insurance but there is still a very large number of persons who are not so covered, who cannot afford the insurance premiums. I have personal experience of such cases. It is a harrowing experience to meet a widow who is left with six or seven young children and who is depending on the non-contributory widow's pension if that is all she qualifies for. We should have done something about this section of the community long before now.

I have mentioned the question of industry, industrial development, county development teams and the small industries plan and how successful it is. There is a very big problem which is boiling over at the moment, namely, the question of labour relations. This is a rather dangerous subject to speak about, as Deputy Carter has said, but if one is a Member of a House of Parliament one must face his responsibilities and speak about the difficult things as well as about the easy things. This field of activity is in need of a clean-up. There is a very difficult situation arising. I am sorry to say that the general public do not seem to be taking the interest in this matter that they should take. They do not seem to have the knowledge of these things that they should have. Public opinion at the moment is largely uninformed on the subject of industrial relations and the labour difficulties that are boiling over, as I have said.

It has always been the policy of Fianna Fáil Governments from the time of Mr. de Valera down to the present that the Party fully supported the trade union movement and always have said that it was in the best interests of the workers, the best interests of industrial development, for workers to be organised in trade unions and, whatever difficulties they might have with their employers, to use the trade union as negotiation machinery and to process all their claims or complaints through that machinery.

What is happening today? There are all types of unofficial groups being formed in some of our very large companies, the majority of them semi-State companies. This is a very dangerous movement for our future development. These workers, who may think they are acting in their own best interests, are certainly not acting in the best interests of the nation. In the long run, they can only destroy themselves and destroy the country. Unless and until the people of the country fully realise what is going on, this situation will not improve. It is an accepted fact that there is very little that legislation can do to correct the problem. It is a question of moulding public opinion and letting these people know that if they wish to upset the country the community will not stand for it. We are here as members of the community and as representatives of the community. We have an obligation to speak for the community. There is too much play made of the idea that if I am speaking here I am speaking for Fianna Fáil, that if somebody on the Labour benches is speaking he is speaking for Labour, that if somebody in the Fine Gael benches is speaking he is speaking only for the Fine Gael Party. We are speaking for the community that we represent. We belong to our various political Parties because we believe that that is the best way in which we can carry out development for the betterment of the community generally but each one of us as a person represents the whole community as a body.

One can see openly displayed on the national television programmes the confrontation between those who were officially appointed to represent the workers as members of a trade union and those who had formed themselves into some kind of unofficial association. One sees them opposing each other on the national television service, both sides letting themselves down. Telefís Éireann have shown grave irresponsibility in exposing these people and their problems to the nation. In one way, it might be a good thing; it might help people to realise what exactly is happening; but in another way it cannot but discredit the whole trade union movement and, indeed, discourage those people with whom they form official associations.

I cannot see what useful purpose was achieved by exhibiting live two factions in a dispute on our national television service. The only benefit that I can see came out of it was that it might help to educate the people to see how ridiculous the position was and how ludicrous the whole position is. But, if the trade union movement is not strong enough and if leaders in the trade union are going to continually play politics instead of carrying out their functions as leaders of trade unions, then we can be in for a very difficult time, but, as has been stated here recently by one of our Ministers, the leaders of the trade unions in this country today are more interested in playing politics than they are in carrying out their grave responsibilities as leaders of a national movement which is the movement of trade unionism. We have placed the future of the whole industrial expansion of the country on happy labour relations and the people who are being paid to negotiate for the workers are less interested in the workers and more interested in politics, which is a completely different profession, a completely different occupation, and the two of them can never go together.

It might not be any harm if we had a look at the American system and introduced something similar to that into this country where you have no Labour Party and where you have none of this two-timing, because that is what it is, where people, if they are in the union movement, are there simply and solely to represent the workers in a particular section of the industrial community, but politics is a large and broad field and individual politions are concerned more with the general problems of the whole community than they are with specific cases, and I would state here and now that if the leaders of the trade unions do not wish to lead, this country can run into difficult waters, very difficult waters, and a lot of the progress that has been made in the country will go on the rocks. They do not seem to realise the responsibility they have. They do not seem to realise that the lives and the jobs of thousands and thousands of people depend on how they carry out their responsibilities.

I think I have said enough about that question. One is obliged to speak on these matters; they are not to be avoided, and it is a pity, as I said, that public opinion in this country has not yet been formed or is not yet informed on the true situation in the labour movement. To me, the political set-up here where you have a Labour Party acting as they do is nothing but a large joke, one big joke. It is like a comic strip. Every week there is some new gimmick, some new twist. They seem to be the most unhappy group of people I know in the whole country. This morning I read that the student branch of the Labour Party in Cork is disbanded because they had lost confidence in what they thought was their Labour Party. A couple of west of Ireland men who had the misfortune to join that Party have since been guillotined and I suppose that is enough warning to people from the west of Ireland to have nothing to do with this group of people, but there are too many trade union officials coming in here as TDs. They may not like me to say that——

The Deputy is taking out insurance against any more of them coming in.

I do not know if I would have any influence over them, but it is quite evident they are here and they are only doing half a job. They seem to think they can justify their existence by stirring up trouble. If they can keep the pot stirring, they are doing fine and this reminds me too much of the communist techniques.

(Interruptions.)

I said it smelt of communism but I do not believe there are any communists really in your Party, but there is a tendency among you to be happiest when there is trouble brewing and there does not seem to me to be any sincerity in your Party to work here for the whole of the country.

The trouble was started by the Fianna Fáil cumann on a few occasions.

You have your own troubles now and I would not wish to have to deal with them. This is a matter we will have to settle. I should like to repeat what I said here.

The Deputy will appreciate that repetition is not in order.

I thought that now that Deputy Tully is here, if I repeated it, he might appreciate the fact I was not just speaking because the Labour Party benches were empty.

I do not think you should embarrass Deputy Tully.

The only reason I was not here was that I was with the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Carty, and he will bear me out in this, trying to work out the business of the House for people like Deputy Molloy.

I think I have mentioned most of the things I wished to say. I did speak, when speaking in Irish, on the development of the fishing industry and I want to say again in English that it is my firm conviction that the fishing industry will not develop at a full and proper rate unless the State is prepared to come in behind it and finance it properly. Giving a grant of £300,000 to Bord Iascaigh Mhara and giving them the responsibility for the development of the whole fishing industry, without giving them the money to carry out the job, is ludicrous. It is a point I mentioned here five, six or seven times already and, as I said, I will go on repeating it ad nauseam until I see something done about it.

There was one step indeed welcomed very much in regard to fishing and that was the substantial increase in the grant to the Inland Fisheries Trust this year. That is what I would call a step ahead. If the same percentage increase were given to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara, it would be something to shout about. The Inland Fisheries Trust are doing very good work and it is encouraging to see the State increasing the grant-in-aid from £120,000 to £180,000 in this coming financial year. I know they are capable of doing the work. There is a lot more work they can do which will benefit inland fishing in this country if they get more money, but the increase is very satisfactory and I would like to see it carried on into the other sectors of the fishing industry.

In summing up, I would say that the Budget is very satisfactory and the Minister is to be complimented. The country is making progress and, in my opinion, will continue to make progress as long as there is a Government in power who are anxious to lead and capable of leading and I do know that the present Government fulfil all the qualifications necessary for good government; and it is my wish there would always be a strong government in this country, no matter who forms that Government. I think I will continue after Questions because that brings me to another point that I would like to speak about—this whole question which is facing us in this country, the proposal by the Government to introduce a change in our electoral laws. These amendments are, to my way of thinking, the only practical step the responsible Government can take at this particular time. To change from our present system of multi-seat constituencies into single-seat constituencies is, I think, a progressive step. Even at this stage the general public may not yet be fully aware of all the advantages of these two amendments. It is my firm belief that the longer the Opposition drag out the amendment debate, the better it will be for the public because they will come to understand more and more the greater the advantage it will be for this country to have this new system of election.

Does the Deputy mean the straight vote system?

I am talking about the straight vote and the single seat. Newspapers may misquote Ministers and read all sorts of inferences into Ministers' statements, but this Party stands for the straight vote with the single seat. I do not think any reasonable person could expect any Government putting forward the single seat to have it under an alternative system.

The matter does not arise.

How many of them visited the Minister and asked him for his personal views?

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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