Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 11 Jun 1968

Vol. 235 No. 6

Adjournment Debate. - Driving Tests.

Mr. Harte

I raise this matter on the Adjournment simply because I believe the Minister for Local Government does not really appreciate the importance of the question I have tabled. I have had several representations from constituents because of their difficulties in this respect and I appeal to the Minister to reconsider the position and to enter into some agreement with his opposite number in Stormont involving reciprocal arrangements. Many people, particularly in my constituency, are affected by this law. I understand that under the present law the Minister cannot do anything about it. However, it is a bad law and the Minister should change it. After all, that would only be democracy working as it should work. That is why we elect Governments: if we believe in democracy, we elect a Government to bring in laws suited to the people's needs, laws which the people want. Against that background, I implore the Minister to enter into preliminary talks with his opposite number in Belfast with a view to arriving at a reciprocal agreement with that authority.

Having been elected to the House to represent a Border constituency I have no doubt you, Sir, have come across many of the difficulties I have posed in my question. Let us consider the case of a clergyman of any denomination who is transferred from Derry to Donegal. In Derry, he had been a licensed driver during 20 or 30 years but when he arrives in Donegal, he must do a driving test. Having driven all those years in Northern Ireland, he must here submit himself to a test. Let us take the case of a person who gets married and goes from one side of the Border to the other. He, too, is caught in the trap.

Our Road Traffic Act is recognised as being a reasonably good code. It shows that an attempt has been made by a Fianna Fáil Government to bring in reasonably good legislation to control the issue of driving licences. On both sides of the Border, this legislation has been recognised as being good and therefore there is no reason why the Minister should feel embarrassed by entering into preliminary negotiations with his opposite number in Stormont, with a view to the recognition here of driving licences issued by the Northern Ireland authorities and of their recognising our driving licences. For instance, I cannot see why a person in Bundoran—we heard a lot about Bundoran during the past week or fortnight——

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Boland)

And you will hear a lot more.

Mr. Harte

And you will hear more. I will take it up at the chapel gates.

Mr. Boland

Take it up with the Minister for Agriculture.

Mr. Harte

If a man from Bundoran goes to Sligo—a man who has held a licence under the County Donegal licensing authority—all he has to do is to go to the relevant authority in Sligo, to the local taxation office there, and they will find out whether he has held a licence in Donegal and will recognise that. I cannot see why the same arrangement should not hold good if he goes, say, to Enniskillen— why the Fermanagh authorities should not be able to do the same.

The Minister may say he is occupied with more important business but at least he can agree to have a talk with his opposite number in Belfast and see what he is prepared to do in this important matter which affects so many people, particularly in Border areas. Let us take the case of a licensed driver from Northern Ireland who comes across to Donegal as a weekend tripper. Unfortunately, he may take one too many, is apprehended by the Garda in Donegal, is charged and found guilty of drunken driving and, as a result, has his driving licence suspended here. That suspension can be enforced only in Donegal. That man is legally entitled to drive in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Boland

I am in favour of abolishing the Border.

Mr. Harte

If the Minister is, here is something he can do. If the Minister agrees that a person from Ballyshannon, Bundoran, Buncrana, may go to any other county and is entitled to get a licence from the local authority of that county, why does he object to that man getting the same facilities if he goes to live in the North? I take the Minister at face value in his reference to the Border but why does he blow hot and cold on the subject matter of my question? I want to know what the Minister intends to do about this bad law. He may not be fully alive to all its aspects or appreciate the difficulties there are for so many people.

On 31st March, 1966, I addressed a similar question to the then Minister for Local Government, Deputy Blaney, who was taken to task by Deputy T.J. Fitzpatrick of Cavan on the matter of an amendment of the driving test regulations. Deputy P. O'Donnell also raised the matter. The Minister that day, reported at column 537 of the Official Report, volume 222, said:

I am fully alive to the problem, but the House will appreciate that these regulations are made under international agreements....

How alive was Deputy Blaney to this problem two years and three months ago when, in the meantime, he has done nothing? How alive has his successor, Deputy Boland, been to the matter since he came to occupy that office 18 months ago? This is typical of the red tape in the Fianna Fáil Cabinet. They are more preoccupied with the pursuit of their own political existence——

An Ceann Comhairle

This has nothing to do with the question. Will the Deputy address himself to the matter before the House?

Mr. Harte

It has this much to do with it—that when I address a question to the Minister for Local Government, a straightforward question, I should get a straightforward reply. When I ask him a straightforward question, oozing with commonsense, he tells me he is not concerned and gives most unsatisfactory replies to my supplementary questions. I believe that the Minister should appreciate the difficulties here and that he should, without any further delay, communicate with his opposite number in Belfast and ask him to enter into some reciprocal agreement. Indeed, I understand you would have to do that with Britain but at this stage if the Northern authorities could agree with our Minister, this would meet the case to a major degree. I can assure the House that clergy of all denominations find, when they are transferred from one side of the Border to another, that they are embarrassed by having to do a driving test twice or possibly three times during their lifetime in spite of the fact that they have always held a licence and have never allowed it to lapse. People who transfer residence from one side of the Border to the other find themselves in the same dilemma. This is unfair and I think there should not be laws like this for people who want to abide by the law.

Those are the reasons I make this appeal to the Minister to reconsider the position. I can assure him if I were a member of a Government on the other side of the House, I would not have to be asked a second time at least to ask the Minister in Belfast to sit down and talk on the problem.

Mr. Boland

It is only possible to arrange for mutual acceptance of certificates of competence as between one State and another by the conclusion of a reciprocal agreement. It is not my fault nor the fault of anyone on this side of the House that this position exists. It was, in fact, with the cooperation of Deputies of the same Party as Deputy Harte that this position arose in our country, that the Border was established.

Mr. Harte

What have you done about it in the past 40 years?

Mr. Boland

It was established by——

Mr. Harte

Irishmen. The legitimate Government of this country which you opposed.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does Deputy Harte wish to listen to the Minister's reply?

Mr. Boland

It was imposed on this country with British assistance, and I have no responsibility for the existence of a border in this country. Deputy Fitzpatrick—I mean Deputy Harte; I am used to talking about Deputy Fitzpatrick because he has been saying a lot lately——

Mr. Harte

You are counting Deputy Fitzpatrick jumping ditches instead of sheep at night.

Mr. Boland

Deputy Harte says that all I have to do is to enter into an agreement in order to do this but what I would like to tell Deputy Harte is that an agreement involves two parties. I am only one party. There is no point in my entering into an agreement with myself. I am already in agreement with myself.

Mr. Harte

Enter into negotiations.

Mr. Boland

It is largely due to Deputy Harte's predecessors on that side of the House that I have no jurisdiction over the six north-eastern counties of our country. I have no jurisdiction over that part of the country and largely because of the Deputy's Party.

Mr. Harte

That is not true.

Mr. Boland

There is no point in my entering into an agreement with myself.

Mr. Harte

Will you enter into negotiations?

Mr. Boland

I am only one of the two parties involved.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Deputy Harte please listen to the Minister's reply?

Mr. Boland

I do not propose to enter into unilateral recognition of British driving tests. I do not think this would be a wise thing to do.

Mr. Harte

I do not ask you to be unilateral.

Mr. Boland

I cannot enter into an agreement with myself.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.45 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 12th June, 1968.