Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 18 Jun 1968

Vol. 235 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Broadcasting (Offences) Bill, 1967: Committee and Final Stages.

SECTION 1.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Childers)

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 2, between lines 25 and 26, to insert the following subsection:

"(2) Any reference in this Act to any other enactment shall be construed as a reference to that enactment as amended by or under any other enactment."

The effect of this amendment is to provide for possible future changes in the Acts referred to in the Bill. For example, there may at some time be a change in the extent of our territorial waters, or in the way in which their extent is defined. If our territorial waters were, at any time, extended further from our base lines the situation might arise, but for the amendment, in which a strip of water was outside the jurisdiction conferred in this Bill but within the limits of Ireland in foreign eyes. Thus a foreign national might establish a pirate broadcasting station outside territorial waters as defined in the Bill but could not be prosecuted under it. The amendment provides for a possible change is our territorial waters limits.

Amendment agreed to.

Question proposed: "That section 1, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Corish

Perhaps the Minister might be able to answer a very simple question. Who would be responsible for taking action in respect of that part which would be regarded as the high seas and not adjacent to either state? In this case, would, say, Britain and Ireland draw an ocean line down through the Irish Sea and do we assume that the British Government would take action in their half and that the Irish Government would take action in our half?

Mr. Childers

We take action in respect of Irish citizens whom we find transgressing the terms of the Bill, whether they are within territorial waters or whether they are helping ships that are on the high seas, but we cannot prosecute foreign citizens on the high seas.

Mr. Corish

This would relate to the ship and its country of registration?

Mr. Childers

Yes.

Mr. Corish

Not to personnel?

Mr. Childers

So far as ships are concerned, they would have to come within territorial waters.

Mr. James Tully

You are talking about supplies. You will starve them out, in other words.

Mr. Childers

Yes.

Mr. Corish

There is no action which can effectively be taken outside territorial waters?

Mr. Childers

We can prevent people servicing those ships.

Mr. Corish

I want to get this clear. Within territorial waters, the Minister or his agents can seize a ship. Is that correct?

Mr. Childers

Yes. In fact, of course, it would be the Attorney General.

Mr. Corish

Outside that line, you can only take the other action by way of supplies of food and oil going to them?

Mr. Childers

Anybody who procures broadcasting or advertises on those stations can be prosecuted in this country. We can deal with citizens of other countries who are providing broadcasting for ships.

Mr. James Tully

That would be an awfully dangerous thing.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

It is a case of "We do not want to fight but, by jingo, we will."

Mr. Childers

It is a very difficult matter to frame this legislation. The only practical way is to ensure that pirate ships which would be very likely outside territorial waters would not be helped by Irish citizens. The most effective part of the legislation is that which prevents our citizens from helping them to carry out their work.

Mr. James Tully

Is the Minister serious when he says that it would have to be taken as evidence that they were being aided and abetted if, in fact, a pirate station is putting across a programme advertising the wares of a citizen or firm in the country? Would that be taken as evidence on which persons could be prosecuted?

Mr. Childers

Yes, prima facie. The Attorney General would, of course, have to be satisfied.

Mr. James Tully

Then it is actual proof which will be found which will be used. The Minister may remember he did say "if a programme was put across".

Mr. Childers

The Attorney General would take those cases. If some particular Irish product was advertised on a pirate ship, the Attorney General would have to be satisfied that that was in fact induced, ordered and provided for by an Irish firm.

Mr. Corish

If there were such a ship broadcasting within British territorial waters and receiving advertisements from an Irish firm here or a citizen, what if any action would be taken against the Irish citizen or firm?

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

You would chase the ship away.

Mr. Childers

The British would do it under their legislation.

Mr. Corish

Could they prosecute me if I gave an advertisement to a ship which broadcast within their waters? They would have no jurisdiction over me.

Mr. Childers

But we would. It is rather difficult to describe but there would have to be somebody on one side or the other who would be amenable in a court of law.

Mr. Corish

If I were Corish of Corish and Corish selling wallpaper and gave an advertisement to them, could nobody do anything to me unless the Minister or the Government had some sort of an agreement with the British Government? However, it may never happen.

Mr. P.J. Lenihan

What would Deputy Corish suggest?

Mr. Corish

I am not suggesting: I am looking for an answer.

Mr. Childers

This ship would be in British territorial waters.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 2 and 3 agreed to.

SECTION 4.

Question proposed: "That section 4 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. James Tully

This is the answer to the question which Deputy Corish asked. This section says if a broadcast is made from a ship other than one registered in the State while the ship is on the high seas, any person, being a citizen of Ireland, who participates in the operation of the apparatus by means of which the broadcast is made shall be guilty of an offence. If I read it rightly, it enables the State to prosecute a citizen for giving an advertisement to the pirate ship in other territorial waters.

Mr. Childers

Yes, the section applies only to Irish citizens who operate or participate in a pirate broadcast on the high seas or from an aircraft or any person, whether Irish or foreign, who procures such a broadcast is guilty of an offence within the jurisdiction.

Mr. James Tully

That would probably answer the question.

Mr. Corish

I do not think it answers it completely because it still does not include British territorial waters.

Mr. Childers

The British can also stop the pirate station because if it is there, it would probably be advisable for them to do so. If there are British people committing the offence, they can arrest them.

Mr. Corish

I am a very simple man. There is one of those ships in British waters. It is being supplied by an Irish citizen or by an Irish firm. How can that person be prosecuted?

Mr. Childers

The British would prosecute in that case. Both sides will have similar legislation, and the proceedings will be instituted by the side that is best in a position to do so.

Mr. Corish

How could they prosecute an Irish person?

Mr. Childers

We can prosecute foreign people who come within the jurisdiction. Once the person comes within territorial waters, we can prosecute. Therefore the British can do the same with regard to an Irish citizen.

Mr. James Tully

Does it not appear that this legislation is being attacked in most countries, as has already been announced, and following that, it means that where the offence occurs, if it can be proved that a citizen of a country which has in fact adopted this type of legislation has committed an offence, he can be prosecuted? Is that correct?

Mr. Childers

Yes.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

Surely this matter is cleared up in section 5 which says that a person who does any of the acts mentioned in subsection (3), and that is a whole list and refers to somebody being a citizen of Ireland or not a citizen of Ireland, is guilty of an offence?

Mr. Childers

Yes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If we could clear section 4 first, we could then discuss section 5.

Mr. Coogan

When you refer to an aircraft, you could have a sputnik where a programme could be bounced off it outside territorial waters and the programme could be sent here.

Mr. Childers

All kinds of aircraft are included in this.

Mr. Coogan

They could go outside and bounce the programme off it.

Mr. Childers

The broadcast has to be made from somewhere, or received somewhere. Either will suffice to establish an offence. This is covered in section 6.

Mr. Coogan

It could be made by a sputnik which would bounce it off.

Mr. Childers

Yes.

Mr. Coogan

A sputnik could go right over.

Mr. Childers

I do not know how we could deal with prosecutions of that kind. I am afraid it would be a little difficult.

Mr. Coogan

Something could be sent out innocently and acted upon.

Mr. Childers

Sputniks require very heavy financing to operate and I think it unlikely that pirate stations have reached that stage of international chaos.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 5.

Question proposed: "That section 5 stand part of the Bill".

Mr. Corish

Can the Minister tell us how it covers the case I mentioned?

Mr. Childers

As I have said, if the ship is in British territorial waters, it will, in practice, be a matter for the British to act. It is for them to take action one way or the other.

Mr. Corish

Is there machinery available and agreed whereby the British Government can prosecute an Irish citizen for an offence listed here?

Mr. Childers

Yes. We can prosecute foreign citizens once they come within our territorial waters. Naturally under the Convention they can prosecute Irish citizens within their territorial waters. It is a mutual arrangement.

Mr. Corish

Is it covered by this or is it in some other legislation?

Mr. Childers

It is covered by this.

Mr. James Tully

It goes back to the one I mentioned. Under section 5 if someone from Ireland procured a broadcast in a ship on the high seas or in the territorial waters of, say, Britain, if it could be proved that he procured that broadcast, is it not correct that he could be prosecuted here?

Mr. Childers

If there were proof that procurement was effected, he could be prosecuted here. Whether the person is an Irish citizen or a foreigner, he can be prosecuted. If an Irish citizen is operating on a ship within British territorial waters, he can be prosecuted.

Mr. Corish

The section mentioned by Deputy Tully refers to "Irish territorial waters" and "the high seas".

Mr. James Tully

Or elsewhere.

Mr. Coogan

"Elsewhere" should cover it.

Mr. Childers

We are legislating for our territorial waters and the high seas. We are not duplicating anything in respect of British territorial waters.

Question put and agreed to.

Section 6 agreed to.

SECTION 7.

Question proposed: "That section 7 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Coogan

I take it this is to prevent bogus Mayday calls. The safety of ships in involved.

Mr. Childers

Section 7 deals with the question of penalties and summary jurisdiction. It may take some time to find these people. Therefore we cannot have a provision whereby a person must be prosecuted within a certain period.

Mr. Coogan

For bogus Mayday calls?

Mr. Childers

For offences under the Bill dealing with pirate broadcasting.

Mr. Corish

Subsection (6) provides:

A member of the Garda Síochána shall, for the purpose of the enforcement of this Act, have in sea waters adjacent to the State all the powers, protection and privileges which he has in the State.

That gives them a lot of power. I can see them on the strand swimming out to tow in a broadcasting ship.

Mr. Childers

This puts beyond all doubt the powers of the Garda.

Mr. Corish

They have the power but not the fitness.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 8 and 9 agreed to.

SECTION 10.

Question proposed: "That section 10 stand part of the Bill".

Mr. Corish

Why the month?

Mr. Childers

This is merely to bring matters into line with the terms of the European Agreement.

Question put and agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with amendment, received for final consideration and passed.