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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 2 Jul 1968

Vol. 236 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Turf Development Bill, 1968: Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

The purpose of this Bill is to give Bord na Móna temporary relief from their obligation to pay interest on State advanced capital and to defer repayments of capital to the State.

Under the Turf Development Acts, Bord na Móna are obliged to pay interest at fixed rates on advances of capital from the Minister for Finance. The board are also required to commence repayment of capital as soon as the bogs in which the capital is invested have been developed and come into production. It should be noted, therefore, that all the board's Stateadvanced capital is subject to a fixed annual interest and is repayable on a 25-year basis. The board has no share or equity capital. The board is required, therefore, to meet a definite financial target each year. Since the establishment of the board, capital repayments have totalled nearly £4 million while, in the same period, interest paid on capital totalled about £8½ million. The board have met in full their obligations for interest and capital repayments in the normal way up to the payment made on 1st April, 1965. Since then, however, they have been unable to meet from normal revenues the payments due to the State and have been compelled to use capital funds for this purpose as far as they would go. A total of £2,235,000 was so used. The last remittance for interest and repayment of capital was that due and paid on 1st October, 1966. Payments totalling almost £2,600,000 are still outstanding in respect of the amounts due on 1st April, 1967, 1st October, 1967, and 1st April, 1968. In the case of advances to the board from sources other than the State, the board's obligations have continued to be met in full.

Bord na Móna's difficulty is that all their production operations depend fundamentally on natural drying conditions. This is particularly so in the case of milled peat production, which is very vulnerable to adverse weather. Heavy rain can cause substantial losses. In addition, briquette production is dependent on the availability of adequate supplies of milled peat. A measure of the suitability of weather for peat harvesting is given by an index known as Poulter's Index. This is a figure derived from three of the main weather factors which affect drying— temperature, duration of sunshine and rainfall. In the period from 1880 to 1960 the index for central Ireland did not fall below average on more than four successive years. Unfortunately since 1960 there has been a deterioration. The summer of 1967 was the eighth successive summer in which the index was below average so that, since 1880, the worst peat harvesting period has been the period from 1960 to 1967.

To Bord na Móna the succession of poor peat harvesting seasons has meant men and machines lying idle and work partly done but written off because of the interruption of work schedules by bad weather. The board have been unable to meet their production targets —in the last five years, for example, the overall percentages of targets reached have been only 77 per cent, 81 per cent, 57 per cent, 75 per cent and 89 per cent respectively. The overall result has been the development of a financial situation such that, at the end of 1967-68, the board's accumulated debit balance is in the region of £5 million.

I should point out at this stage that Bord na Móna have made many efforts to counteract the effects of the unsuitable harvesting weather. In an attempt to maintain the scheduled deliveries on which the capacity of the milled peat fired generating stations was based, they increased the area of bog under production by developing tracts on the fringes of the bogs, thereby accepting a reduced annual target of 70 tons of milled peat per acre compared with the original target of 100 tons. The board have carried out experiments in the milling and harrowing of milled peat for the purpose of establishing methods which would ensure the most efficient use of available natural drying. The size of the particle milled has proved to be crucial in this context and further work is being carried out by the board to determine the optimum particle size for the climatic conditions.

The board have also carried out investigations into drainage of milled peat areas and milled peat pile compaction and protection. These investigations have led to a standard procedure for the protection of turf stock piles during the winter, involving the introduction of polythene covering for milled peat piles in an effort to defeat both high winds and heavy rains. Without this covering, losses would have been much heavier.

Finally, Bord na Móna have embarked on a new experimental method of milled peat production—the Fóidin method. This involved the designing of new machines to produce, on milled peat bogs, turf in the form of small sods which, in the process of drying, would develop a surface resistant to weather like ordinary sod turf. The small sods so produced are subsequently crushed to form milled peat. This harvesting technique has been developed to supplement normal milled peat production in poor harvesting conditions; 85,000 tons were harvested by this method in 1967 at the board's works in county Mayo and at Boora and Derrygreenagh works in County Offaly. Of course, the Fóidin method is more expensive than direct harvesting of milled peat, but it should ensure a minimum harvest irrespective of weather conditions. The board are pleased with the results obtained so far and this year they are extending the application of the new method to their works at Blackwater, County Offaly and Mountdillon, County Longford. All these efforts to overcome adverse weather conditions naturally increase the board's costs and are reflected in the present debit balance position.

In view of the heavy and continuing losses suffered by Bord na Móna in recent years, I think it is very necessary to have a new and searching look at the overall operations of the board. To this end, I am arranging for the appointment of a firm of consultants to examine the turf production programme both from the engineering and financial standpoints, and to assess the likely results of future operations. I should make it clear that, over the years, Bord na Móna have themselves employed consultants on various occasions to examine and report on different facets of their operations. The new investigation will be concerned with the totality of the board's operations. When this investigation has been completed and reported on, it should be possible to decide on the most appropriate financial structure of the board for future years and so ensure the continuation of the board's activities on a sound basis and preserve employment and other benefits in areas which otherwise provide very little opportunities. The purpose of the present Bill is to afford some immediate relief to the board in their financial difficulties pending the outcome of the report.

The Bill proposes that Bord na Móna be given full or partial relief during a period of four years, from 1st April, 1967, from their obligation to pay interest—now about £1.2 million a year—on State advances. In addition, the board would, if necessary, be permitted to defer all or part of the repayments of State advances, about £400,000 a year, due during the same period. The Minister for Finance would take a decision on the extent of the relief in respect of each year on examination of the board's financial position and after consultation with me. The relief would not apply to capital advanced to the board by the State for the provision of houses for their workers as it is separate from the board's main function of turf production, on which the losses have occurred, and the board would continue to make the small annual payments involved.

The relief would be given by means of orders—which may include conditions suggested by the circumstances at the time—which would be made by the Minister for Finance and laid before the House in the usual way. The annual accounts of the board would also bring any waiver or deferment to attention.

In 1965, on the occasion of the last Turf Development Bill, the House was given particulars of the projected development of the board's activities. The moss peat factory at Coolnamona near Portlaoise has since been completed and is now in production. Further development of the board's programme has, however, been somewhat disrupted by the succession of bad summers. As a consequence, the erection of an additional briquette factory has not been proceeded with. In any event, because of supply difficulties resulting from bad harvesting weather and also perhaps because of the fall in popularity of solid fuel generally, demand for peat briquettes has not increased as much as was expected. It is necessary, therefore, to make a careful re-examination of the prospects for sales of peat briquettes before substantial capital investment is made in a new briquette factory. This is one of the matters that, I hope, will be reported upon by the consultants.

Now, despite the setback which is the reason for the submission of this Bill to the House, there is ample evidence of the success which has attended the endeavours of Bord na Móna in carrying out the duties assigned to them in 1946. They have now about 100,000 acres of bog in production, and they pay over £4 million a year in wages to 7,000 workers of whom over 4,000 are permanent employees. Their contribution to the national fuel requirements, both for direct consumption and for electricity generation, is substantial. The board naturally expected to have bad years among the good years, but the recent succession of bad years has involved them in losses which demand that there be a thorough examination of their prospects.

In the meantime, it is essential that the board be afforded some provisional financial relief.

I hope that the recommendations of the consultants, coupled with the measures already taken by the board, will provide a basis for the avoidance of losses in the future and enable the board to meet their financial obligations.

I recommend the Bill to the House.

While I accept the Minister's statement that Bord na Móna has a payroll of 7,000 and expends about £4 million per annum in wages and makes a contribution to the national fuel requirements, it is nevertheless, disappointing to find that 22 years after its inception the board, through the Minister for Transport and Power, is presenting a rather gloomy story to the House. Bad weather is blamed for it and the Minister supports this argument by citing the average figures since 1880 to 1960 and from 1960 to date. We cannot, of course, dispute these average assessments but it is rather regrettable that, while we must take the good year with the bad year, there should be a succession of bad years vis-à-vis Bord na Móna activities as we have had outlined by the Minister.

For four years we are asked to give Bord na Móna a bit of breathing space so that they will not have to repay moneys during that time which amount now to £1.2 million and £400,000, so that at the end of the four years, if payments are not being made by the board of these figures and assuming that their operations in the meantime break evenly, there will be a debt of something approaching £6½ million.

That is a serious situation. I always thought that the general line of policy in this country was that, while parties may differ in details of administration, we were a private enterprise country and that it was only when private enterprise was either unable or unwilling to undertake work of this nature or that the work was so vast that it would not be within the competence of private enterprise to undertake, that we would have public enterprise of the nature of Bord na Móna, the Electricity Suppy Board and others.

One has to contrast, on the one hand, the success of the Electricity Supply Board as a corporation undertaking the generation of light and power, with Bord na Móna on the other hand which, while an independent operator, nevertheless, can be called a subsidiary in many respects of the ESB. On the one hand there is success but in the other case the figures here are certainly alarming. I hope that when these consultants which the Minister in his wisdom is bringing in to examine the whole position give a full and frank report of their examination and observations, the Minister will immediately take such steps as the consultants advise him to take, that is, of course, if he is satisfied that the advice being offered by the consultants is the proper advice and advice that must necessarily be accepted.

On this, I must sound a note of warning. Consultants very often bring in reports which automatically involve reduction in employment and savings here and there. All of these things constitute a hardship if put into operation. I have seen it in my own constituency. I am sure the Minister knows about it. His Parliamentary Secretary met a deputation from my constituency in relation to a portion of bog which was developed for some years and then had to be abandoned, I suppose in the interests of economy and everything else. People were thrown out of work— fathers of families—not very many but still enough to upset the general pattern of that countryside.

In all of these corporations, particularly in Bord na Móna as, indeed, in the ESB, on the rural electrification side of it, with which we have just been dealing, there is a great element, and necessarily so in a country like this, of a social service. Indeed, the initial conception in relation to Bord na Móna was the provision of employment in rural areas side by side with the development of our bogland tracts. That being so, whatever the consultants say, the social side of these operations should not be abandoned or lost sight of. It is for that reason that I am sounding a note of warning in that regard. The losses here may not be losses, of course; they are just deferred payments which one would hope Bord na Móna would be able to make up, given good weather, greater expansion and all of the other things necessary to increase profits and, also, to increase capital.

Perhaps if the weather changes—and bad weather seems to be the main basis for the setback outlined here by the Minister—there will not be losses but, whether there are losses or not, I should not like to see an operation of the kind run by Bord na Móna being so curtailed in its activities as a result of consultants' reports as to interfere with employment content in areas where that kind of employment content has now been established and has become part of the pattern of the areas where the work is being done. I would, therefore ask the Minister that, in the event of his receiving the consultants' report, it would be widely circulated prior to his bringing in any legislation which would be necessary following the consultants' report.

It is clear, of course, that in the meantime, as the Minister has said, the board must be extended some provisional financial relief. It is to be hoped that at the end of the four-year period, coupled with an improvement in weather conditions and an improvement in the design and operation of machines, the board will be in such a sound position as to justify the measure of relief we are giving them today. I should have said at the beginning that we are willing to give this provisional relief, but only on the basis that the social side of this operation will not be lost sight of, that the employment content will be carefully watched and that every possible measure will be taken to see that these losses are made up.

It is a very bad image to have created for a public body such as this into which public moneys have been put to be in this position. It is not easy to ask the public with any degree of confidence to simply accept bad weather as the reason. Bad weather has been given as the reason and I accept this. But I think possibly there may be other things as well as the bad weather in this whole operation that have resulted in the gloomy picture presented to us. Nevertheless, having regard to all the circumstances and the importance of this industry, I, speaking on behalf of my Party, am willing to give the Minister the provisional relief he asks for the board in this legislation.

I am particularly pleased that the Government have decided to introduce this measure. The Minister may remember that on more than one occasion in this House over the last few years I have suggested that something like this should be done. As a matter of fact, by a series of questions when a dispute was taking place with Bord na Móna in the spring of this year, I attempted to highlight the fact that the board were being made the scapegoat, if that is the correct term, of the other State companies by having to pay the interest and repay the premium no matter what conditions they were operating under, despite the fact that other State bodies with less stress on them were not being required to do the same.

In addition, we had reached the ridiculous stage where Bord na Móna, as the Minister rightly stated, were using capital moneys to pay interest. This just could not continue. Another couple of years and all the balance of the capital funds at the disposal of the board would have been paid back to the Government in interest. The board would have been placed in an impossible position.

I believe the matter was allowed to go too far. It is all right taking average production on the basis of the weather conditions which have been operating for eight years. But the cycle of weather changes very much and it has been proved now that we have had eight bad years in a row. We hope that, like the year of the famine in the Bible, they will be followed by seven good ones.

Everybody has evidence enough to show that Bord na Móna are running into serious trouble, despite every effort made by the big work force. While I agree with Deputy Lindsay that there is a large measure of the social welfare element in the employment they give and that they are giving employment where it is otherwise difficult to find work, nevertheless the social welfare element ends there. Bord na Móna employ now almost entirely highly-skilled technical men, men who are handling machines that cannot be handled by those who have not been trained properly to handle them. For anybody to get the impression that it is another form of social welfare—I am sure Deputy Lindsay did not mean that—it would be entirely wrong.

Bord na Móna have been in the unfortunate position that they have been attempting to repay the principal and to pay the interest. According to the Minister's figures, they have so far paid back £12½ million. It would be interesting to know what the initial loan was. How much did they borrow on which they have been repaying? If that figure is available, I should like to have it from the Minister.

The other thing which should be borne in mind and which cannot be repeated too often is that Bord na Móna have been supplying turf and other types of fuel to the ESB. One of the causes of the labour trouble we had with Bord na Móna was that, despite the fact that the ESB were paying much higher rates of wages, for some extraordinary reason Bord na Móna were and continue to be under contract to supply fuel at much less than the production cost. The Minister may say that it would not be economical for the ESB to use the fuel unless they got it at this price. That may be so, but the point I want to make is: why should the loss not be shared with the ESB? Why should Bord na Móna have to carry the full loss? This is exactly what has been happening over the years and it is partly the cause of the serious position into which Bord na Móna have run.

At present an investigation is being carried out by another Department into recent disputes in Bord na Móna. No matter what the outcome of that, the Minister for Transport and Power should ensure that direct negotiations in regard to the production of fuel should take place between the group of unions representing the men and people who are in a position to say "yes" or "no" on behalf of the board. I am sick and tired, as are many other people, of having even senior officials being made front men, who come along and who have to refer back to some mythical body we have not seen before a decision can be made. All this helps to bring about losses. If there is a stoppage, a delay or even dissatisfaction amongst the people working machines, it naturally results in a loss of production. This could and should be avoided. I would appeal to the Minister to ensure that when negotiations take place and when one side send their top men to negotiate, the other side should do the same. I am casting no slur on the excellent officials of Bord na Móna who are doing their best under difficult conditions.

The period referred to here is four years. This reminds me of CIE, who some years ago were supposed to be able to pay their way in three or four years. Again and again Bills had to be introduced here for the purpose of allowing them a further period. Why did the Minister not introduce the Bill for a period of ten years, particularly as the assistance being given to the board cannot be put into operation unless by ministerial order which must be placed before this House? Why was the period not extended to ten years? Why should it be four? Was this putting a gun to the head of Bord na Móna and saying: "You must pay your way in four years; otherwise you are on your own again."

Finally, I shall refer to a matter that Deputy Lindsay has already touched on. It was mentioned in the last paragraph of the Minister's speech in relation to consultants who are to examine everything being done by Bord na Móna and make recommendations to the Minister. He should be very careful about the consultants. Most of them are experts in their own field, but he can take it from me that field is not a bog on a bad wet night. Their field is not working in bad conditions on their own, four or five miles from anybody else in the middle of a bog where one false move may put man and machine in a very precarious position. My experience of some of these people who claim to be experts on various types of work, particularly work study, is that they try to study it under what they term ideal conditions. That would mean a very fine day in a very safe bog which is a different thing from a bad night in the middle of a bad bog. They would not be bogs if they were not bad.

For that reason I hope the Minister will be careful about making a snap decision on a recommendation from some consultant. I would particularly recommend the Minister to be very careful not to be used by a certain element in the country only too anxious to make the case that fuel from peat is too dear for generating electricity. The Minister is aware, as I am, of the school of thought that would use Bord na Móna's output only when a peak load is required. Whatever the Minister does, he should not be caught by the gentlemen who are trying to put across that view because the loss of employment in rural Ireland which would result from any reduction in Bord na Móna output is something to which, at present anyhow, I can see no answer.

It is rather a pity that something seems to have gone wrong about peat briquettes. I do not know if the story I heard is true that peat briquettes could be exported and sold if a guaranteed output could be maintained, but that there seemed to be a big home market for a while and the effort to sell elsewhere appears to have been reduced, with the result that when the home market, which at best is rather fickle, dried up, the cross-Channel market which was being captured had disappeared. If that is true, it is rather a pity. Bord na Móna should make an effort to encourage the use of briquettes on a far greater scale. There are so many things to recommend it. Even the pricing could be handled in a different way. At present it is possible to find a difference of nearly 25 per cent in the price of briquettes as between one supplier and another. There is still a future for this type of fuel and I should like nothing better than to see the factory, the erection of which was deferred, being started and in production. Things like that, depending on our own natural resources, are far more useful than some of the factories producing goods for which the raw materials must be imported, and an attempt then made to sell the goods abroad in the teeth of competition from those who have the raw materials on hand.

Briefly the purpose of the Bill is to give Bord na Móna temporary relief. I hope it is temporary but all the history of Bord na Móna makes me doubt that. Like the previous speaker, I wonder how are these consultants consulted or in what field they become experts. Many of them are swivel-chair experts who never go out into a bog. Some of them would never return if they did. I have my doubts about them. I have seen these experts appointed to streamline certain matters in my own county. They were brought in with a flourish and we were told of the great savings they would ensure. We have seen the results and conditions are worse than before they came in.

We should examine the history of Bord na Móna more thoroughly to see why it is in the red. I raised a question some years ago when I first came to the House. It would have been hushed up but that I was in touch with the particular bog and would never have come to light. I raised the question of why machines were purchased for £90,000 and delivered to the bog and were never removed from their wrappings until the scrap merchants were sent around to cut them up and take them away. I was near that bog and saw this happen—£90,000 worth sold for £2,000 or £3,000. That is where the losses come in. Will the experts we are now bringing in look back at these things and ensure there will be no repetition? I hope it will not result in an approach like that of CIE to savings and that savings will not be made at the expense of the unfortunate workers.

I am not sure if I am thinking of the right people but I should like to praise Bord na Móna or the Sugar Beet Company—they were certainly involved— for hiring out turf-cutting machines. That is a wonderful thing. It has helped to step up production and has helped farmers and others——

It was the Sugar Company. It does not arise on this Bill.

It is no harm to have a little sugar coating on this measure.

The Deputy will have to wait for Deputy Corry.

Throw in the NFA.

No, that is a sore point. Bord na Móna could go into this field of enterprise just as the Sugar Company have done, giving farmers more time to attend to their crops by having the use of these machines. This is something that should be encouraged also in regard to turf. We have become too dependent on oil. I dread to think what would happen if we had another war. We depend on oil for our railway engines. We have turf to burn in train engines but not as much as one steam engine in which to burn it. At least that was the Minister's answer to a question I asked some time ago. We should not put all our eggs in one basket but should ensure that we have something to rely on in the event of war.

Bord na Móna should be kept on its feet as a safeguard in the event of war. I hope the people of Dublin, if we do have a war, will not have to suffer the sort of turf which came up during the previous war years because they got a very bad taste of it. We must maintain the board but let us hope their losses in future will dwindle.

I thank the House for their reception of this Bill. I can assure Deputy Coogan that I have had nearly seven years' experience of Bord na Móna and its administration. I have met the board on a number of occasions, and the Parliamentary Secretary is also in close touch with them. I have also been out on the bogs, and I have examined their annual reports and their expenditure. I think it can be said they are a highly responsible organisation. I have never met any group of executives who could be more enthusiastic about trying to get their system as efficient as possible and to keep down the cost of turf, which is so important from the point of view of electricity production and enabling the briquettes to compete with other forms of fuel. They have never been afraid to take decisions in regard to changes in method. I recognise that there are industrial consultants who, because of their lack of qualification, should not be invited out to lonely windswept bogs, as Deputy Tully says, but as Deputy Tully will know, Bord na Móna have had some very successful consultant operations, by people who did go out on the bogs and who were acquainted with the characteristics and all the difficulties of turf production.

I am still not satisfied that any of them were there at 12 o'clock on a wet night.

Perhaps not at that desperate hour. Bord na Móna have already made a big effort; the weather slightly improved last year, and they got 89 per cent of their total target, partly because of slightly better weather and partly because of the harvesting of a greater area per machine. I am hoping that the new Fóidín will be successful. There are many complications in respect of the type of turf that can be used for this form of operation. Certain qualities of turf in the midland bogs are not so susceptible to treatment by Fóidín operation as others. Although I appreciate what Deputy Tully said about Bord na Móna being made liable to pay interest on principal, I think he knows the reason, that whereas there may be some other State enterprises where one could argue for or against equity capital as a substitute for the repayment of interest on principal, in the case of Bord no Móna the bog lasts 35 years, and therefore repayment of the capital is desirable. One can argue again that if all the bogs are planted for forestry that would yield in 50 years something like £100 million in forestry receipts, to work out how one would apply that in order to decide whether or not they would pay interest on the capital would be beyond me and I think it would be beyond Deputy Tully as well. The reason for making these charges was a natural one in the circumstances.

Deputy Lindsay spoke about the effect of the consultants' report on employment in the bogs. He may take it for granted this report will be very carefully examined by the Parliamentary Secretary, by myself and by Bord na Móna, and that we do not intend to destroy this very valuable form of employment. We want to hear what can be done technically and otherwise, and what form of financial set-up Bord na Móna could adopt in respect of its operations for the remaining life of the bogs.

Deputy Tully asked about the total amount of capital invested in Bord na Móna so far. The amount is £28 million. I agree with Deputy Tully that we can hardly call this a social welfare investment, although we know what Deputy Lindsay meant by that. He meant that it was an investment in the preservation of a valuable form of employment in the midland areas and in Mayo. At the same time, as Deputy Tully says, a very large proportion of these workers are highly skilled, and this is an industry we want to see operated successfully. I cannot make any promises as to what would happen at the end of four years after we have examined the whole position. There is quite a possibility Bord na Móna would be able to resume on a profitable basis after, perhaps, taking some advice from the consultants, due regard being had to all the circumstances involved. Deputy Tully referred to matters concerning labour relations. I think it preferable that the Minister for Labour should consider these, which I know he is doing. I do know that the local grievance procedural arrangements are not unsatisfactory in themselves.

The smaller grievances procedure works reasonably well; it is only when one gets stuck down in the really serious one that dissatisfaction arises. It is annoying to approach a senior official who says he has to go back to the Board. This was the main cause of the serious stoppage this year. When these officials come along they should be able to give a decision, yes or no.

The Deputy knows it was the Labour Court that made the proposition, which was turned down. However, it does not arise on this Bill. Bord na Móna are making efforts to sell peat briquettes wherever they can. They have been selling in Northern Ireland; there are some technical difficulties about selling in Great Britain, in preserving the peat briquette unbroken in its passage across.

Will the Minister agree the briquette is now pricing itself out of the market?

I do not think so.

The Minister is not down to the ground level.

I do not agree either that it is pricing itself out of the market.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
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