The personating agent representing the Fine Gael Party had to go to a funeral in Cornageehar church, a distance of a quarter of a mile away, and left the booth to attend the funeral. When he came back from the funeral he got a side look at the register in the hands of the polling clerk and he saw two names crossed off, two of the people I have just mentioned, and he knew then there was some type of fiddling going on in the booth.
On the morning of the count he reported the matter to me and told me what had happened in Woods' house on the previous day. I was rather busy that morning and I sent Councillor McDonnell to report the matter to the Garda superintendent, which he did. Some days later two gardaí visited me at my own house and asked me to make a statement. This is about 16 months ago. As far as I remember, I told the gardaí in my statement to see Councillor Pat McDonnell, that it was his immediate area and that he would be better able to advise them on the matter than I would. But I made a statement and signed it. I remember that being in the statement.
The Minister said yesterday that I made allegations that there were nine personations. I should like the Minister to say, when replying, where I said there were nine personations and to whom did I say it. Some days afterwards I went to the returning officer and lodged with him an amount of money which put me in possession of a copy of the register that was used in the polling booth on that particular day. When I got the register I called to see some members of the Fine Gael Party who know that particular polling booth area and they gave me the names of the people I have just read out.
Shortly after that there appeared an item on an agenda of the Leitrim County Council in the name of Councillor Peter Charles, who is a Fianna Fáil county councillor, asking to know if the presiding officer had been paid and if the polling clerk had been paid. Some time shortly after that this notice of motion was withdrawn and then there came on a notice of motion in the name of Councillor Joe McCartin, who is a Fine Gael county councillor, to ask if the presiding officer in Woods' house was paid for the local election, if the polling clerk was paid or if there were any results from the investigation that was supposed to have been carried out by the Garda. The answer by the returning officer to the three questions was "No"; the presiding officer was not paid; the polling clerk was not paid and there was no result from the Garda investigations. Then there was a general discussion about the personations in the booth.
If the Minister thinks for one minute that I am using the privilege of this House, I would ask him to read a copy of the Leitrim Observer of 26th October and the Roscommon Herald of the same day and he will find that neither I nor any member of the Fine Gael Party on the Leitrim County Council is using any privilege to make these allegations. They are true. If he looks through the paper he will find a full discussion on it. I will read only some of it as time is running out on me:
Allegations that in last year's Local Elections and in the recent Referendum there were some irregularities in voting in County Leitrim were made at the monthly meeting of the Leitrim County Council in Carrick-on-Shannon.
A Councillor named five people who, he alleged, voted despite the fact that they were not available to vote and one person who "voted" in her maiden and marriage name.
The matter arose at the meeting when a notice of motion tabled by Cllr. J.J. McCartin which asked if the poll clerk and presiding officer had been paid for their services in a polling booth (named) on the day of the local elections, was reached.
Mr. McCartin also asked if the Secretary knew the result of Gardaí investigations into alleged irregularities at this booth.
Mr. G. Ward, County Secretary, when the items were reached replied: "In both cases the reply is no. We have not paid and I don't know the result of the investigations."
Mr. McCartin said there was plenty of time to deal with this situation. He had evidence that seven people voted in this polling booth who were not available to vote.
Mr. McCartin then stated: "The names for the information of the Council are..."
and it goes on like that. I would suggest to the Minister or to any of his colleagues who do not believe me that they should invest in either of these local papers.
Again, to disagree with the Minister's statement that I am using my position here as a privileged Member or using the walls of this House, may I say that in the recent referendum, at public meetings held in Carrick-on-Shannon and in Mohill, I spoke on behalf of the Fine Gael Party and I told the people who were listening to me that if they wanted advice about the third and fourth amendments not to be afraid or ashamed to ask the presiding officers but for God's sake not to take their advice because they were a whole Fianna Fáil outfit, with very few exceptions. I then went on to tell them what happened in Woods' house in the last local election. When the Minister says that I am using my privileged position here, he is not speaking the truth. I am sure the Minister will agree that I am not taking any advantage of my position as a Member of the House.
I know the Ballinamore area very well because I represented that area on the Leitrim County Council for 30 years. This time we had a very close count and at one stage in the count there was a question of two votes between a Fianna Fáil candidate and a Sinn Féin candidate. If the Fianna Fáil candidate received any No. 1 from Woods' house he should have lost the seat. If he received any No. 2s or No. 3s from eliminated candidates, they robbed Sinn Féin of the seat and thus gave a freak result in that area.
After the local elections, Councillor Peter Charles again found time to get out to thank the electorate for electing him and said that he was the only out-going candidate who had increased his vote during the election. If he had many presiding officers such as this fellow in Woods' house, it was not a terribly hard job to increase the vote. He also made sure to say that the Fine Gael Party were making allegations about personations in Woods' house but that he knew that nothing was going to happen about them. I wonder how he came to know that? Did the Minister for Justice tell him? Did the Garda tell him or who told him? I did not know.
I want to say that if there is no one brought to justice for these irregularities, I am not blaming the Garda. I know the Garda who investigated this case. I know the sergeant. I know the superintendent. I would be unfair to them if I did not say here today that they are honest, hard-working, decent people and if this case falls by the way it is certainly not their fault. If it was left to them, I have no doubt but that they would have prosecutions.
In view of the fact that the presiding officer and the polling clerk did not make any statements to the gardaí when they called on them, the only thing the returning officer could do was withhold their payment. That he did and they have not been paid for the work that they did on that particular day and one of them, the presiding officer, was unemployed and I know that he could be doing with £5 or £6 for his day.
