Vol. 237 No. 4
asked the Minister for Justice if he is aware of the concern caused by a recently reported court case (details supplied) in which evidence was given of open sales in public places of cannabis resin; if he will state the steps being taken to prevent such sales; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
56.
asked the Minister for Justice if there is any cross-border exchange of information between the special drug investigating team of the Garda Síochána and the drug squad of the RUC; and if he proposes to have discussions with his Six County counterpart with a view to having drug trafficking attacked on a 32-county basis.
57.
asked the Minister for Justice whether his Department have any plans to establish a drug squad with liaison with the appropriate bodies, on the lines of that established in Belfast.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions 55 to 57 together.
As far as the specific case referred to in Deputy Ryan's Question is concerned, I am informed by the Commissioner, Garda Síochána, that the newspaper report of the evidence given by the sergeant was a greatly abbreviated account which did not correctly represent what was said. The statement actually made about the drug cannabis being passed around rather openly in certain places was to the effect that it was passed around amongst members of a known small group. The statement attributed to the sergeant that drugs originated in this country and that it was not necessary to go abroad for them had no relation either to cannabis or to any so-called "hard" drug but to drugs the possession of which is not unlawful.
On the more general aspects of the Questions, may I remind the Deputies of the terms of my reply of 12th November to a Question by Deputy M. O'Leary, in which I pointed out:
(a) that general responsibility for dealing with problems concerning the use or abuse of drugs rests with the Department of Health and not with my Department,
(b) that, accordingly, the question of liaison with health authorities etc., is a matter for that Department,
(c) that there is, of course, close liaison between the Gardaí and the Department of Health, and
(d) that, in the Garda Síochána, certain members are given special responsibility for the investigation of complaints of drug-peddling and similar matters but that the disclosure of details might have a damaging effect on their work.
A good deal of confusion appears to have been caused by the fact that much of the recent newspaper publicity about "drug-taking" relates in fact to drugs the possession of which is not an offence. I understand that it is accepted that possession of some of those drugs ought to be made an offence and the Minister for Health has already informed the House that he proposes to introduce legislation for that purpose at an early date.
Even as regards those drugs that are subject to full legal control, it is inevitable, in modern conditions, that some illegal traffic in them should appear here as elsewhere and, furthermore, the likelihood is that it will increase rather than decrease. But to acknowledge that is one thing. To exaggerate the extent of the problem is quite another. The information available to the Gardaí—and I think that they are likely to be better informed on this subject than most others—is that there is, practically speaking, no problem in relation to "hard" drugs. There is a problem, but by no means a major one, about the taking of "soft" drugs.
It is untrue to suggest that responsible Garda spokesmen are saying that there is a huge problem on our hands. The considered opinion of those members who are specially dealing with the problem is that recent newspaper reports are grossly exaggerating the problem. It is clear that this kind of exaggeration, apart from giving rise to excessive and unnecessary worry on the part of parents, is itself an instrument in the spreading of the traffic because it leads impressionable teenagers to accept drug-taking as fashionable, and to adopt the habit on the basis that "everybody does it". Incidentally, I want to state quite specifically that there is no foundation whatsoever for a newspaper report to the effect that a gang of blackmarketeers supplying heroin and other "hard" drugs to teenagers is being sought by narcotics detectives in Dublin. I deplore the publication of such false reports on a serious subject.
As I have said already, however, there is a problem, though it is, almost entirely, a problem relating to "soft" drugs and, to a fair extent, drugs the unauthorised possession of which is not as yet an offence. This problem calls for, and is getting, attention— the attention which trained Gardaí, in their professional judgment, think necessary and most likely to be effective. Selected members are taking lectures about drugs and drug-taking so as to fit them better for their task. The police measures also include contacts, where useful, with other police forces but, as regards Deputy Corish's suggestion of action on a 32-County basis, I may say that the Garda authorities see no particular merit in that, seeing there is no customs check on goods between England and the North.
As a final word, however, what I would like to emphasise is that it would, in my view, be a grave error of judgment to look on drug-taking as simply or mainly a matter to be dealt with by police action. The criminal aspect is just one aspect of the problem. As I explained at the outset, the wider and more important social and health aspects are the concern of the Department of Health rather than of my Department.
Would the Minister agree that it is difficult to exaggerate a problem in relation to which the Secretary of a special investigation team of the Irish Medical Association says there are people coming here from England because they find it easier to get heroin and cocaine here than in England? Would the Minister not agree that, if another medical authority states that the situation in Dublin is as bad as it was in London four years ago, a special responsibility devolves on his Department to take more than routine measures to deal with this growing menace? Is the Minister not aware of the special action that has been taken by the Belfast police in this respect and is it not time the Department of Justice woke up and took similar effective measures?
I do not know which of this multiplicity of questions I should deal with, but as far as the police are concerned we had taken special action here before they took any action in the North of Ireland. I do not know who the medical authority is that the Deputy is quoting.
Professor Wilson.
Professor Wilson and his good lady have been making statements on this issue for quite a long time. Let me quote the leading article in the Irish Independent of Wednesday, 22nd November, 1967:
...Dr. C. W. M. Wilson has recently stated, in effect, that there was evidence of the use of certain dangerous drugs in Ireland without medical supervision. He claimed that it was officially denied that the abuse of such drugs was a serious problem here, and he wanted to know on what evidence was such a denial based.
He makes this extraordinary statement without giving any evidence at all as to what he is basing his statement on. The people who have been charged are outside offenders. There was one offence which was merely one of breaking and entering to steal drugs. The one that got most publicity in recent times was the case of a gentleman who told the court here he was just experimenting, with the drugs when, in fact, he had been convicted in London for illegal possession of drugs. Another case was that of an American girl who was just here for a short time. In the few cases we have had where hard drugs were involved our evidence was that the people involved were from the other side. Indeed, one of the cases quoted in recent newspapers was about a so-called student who got hooked over in Edinburgh. That is all the evidence I have and that is from the Garda officers specially trained to deal with this matter. It is not correct to state that the drugs are easily obtained here, as the Deputy alleges.
Would the Minister not agree he has no knowledge whatsoever as to the number of drug addicts in this country? There is no such thing as a register of drug addicts, and because of this he is not able to make a proper statement on it. Is he not aware that there are drugs called pethedine which were stolen from dispensaries and these are serious drugs of addiction?
I have said there are a number of drugs, particularly soft drugs——
Pethedine is not a soft drug.
I do not think we should call out the names of these drugs here and let youngsters know they can buy them here. I would further suggest the police officers in my Department who are specially trained to deal with this matter have a far better and a more accurate idea of the problem than the Deputy.
Would the Minister state if his Department has information of the number of drugs addicts in this country? Would the Minister answer that question?
No. 58.
Would the Minister assure the House——
I have called the next question.
I wish to raise the subject matter of this question on the Adjournment in view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply.
