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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Nov 1968

Vol. 237 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 4: Wholesale Tax (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
(1) That, with effect as on and from the 1st day of January, 1969, wholesale tax imposed by section 2 of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1966 (No. 22 of 1966), shall be charged, levied and paid at the rate of ten per cent in lieu of the rate of five per cent specified in sections 7 (1) and 11 (1) of that Act.
(2) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).
— (The Taoiseach).

Last night I referred to the fact that Fine Gael are once more in the process of manufacturing a new policy. On the occasion of every election in the last few years a new policy statement has emanated from Fine Gael. Deputy Tully jocosely reminded me that Fine Gael had a very short policy statement in the referendum; it was "Vote No". Apparently that policy statement carried the message. However, the proliferation of policy statements by Fine Gael has been a feature of the political scene in recent years. The proliferation causes no little bewilderment to those of us who are interested in politics and the pronouncements of political Parties.

Deputy Michael O'Higgins said last night that the two Coalition Governments — I think he used the word "inter-Party"— were periods of great progress. That is a belief shared by very few. In the last period of Coalition Government I was a member of a local authority and I know only too well what happened in 1955-1956 and early 1957 in regard to all the works that local authorities undertake. Work on the building of houses, the construction and repair of roads, and all the rest of it was held up. Work was at a standstill because the necessary finances were not available. For Deputy Michael O'Higgins to make that statement was self-delusion of the highest order. These are the things the people fear may happen again if we have another Coalition Government some time in the future.

People should know why it has been necessary to impose extra taxation in a period of eight or nine months after the last Budget. It is no harm to tell them the reason why this taxation has to be imposed. First of all, the increases in salaries and wages of public servants have to be met; those increases amount to £9 million. In the past five or six months we had the best summer and finest autumn we have had for years. We had a great harvest, the greatest any of us can remember. We had increased production in milk and a bigger crop of wheat. As those two agricultural commodities are more or less guaranteed in relation to price it was necessary for the Government to find the extra money to pay for the increased crops, and the increased amount for milk that became available and, in addition, an increase was given in the support price of milk. All those extra moneys required to be found, and the only way to find the money, as all Governments know, is by increased taxation. No one likes taxes. Everyone is opposed to taxes but tax imposition is the only way we know of raising money. We were in duty bound to pay the public servants the increase that had been granted to them, and won by them through negotiation.

They have not been paid yet.

They will get it.

Live horse and you will get grass.

The difference between the Party to which I belong and the Parties over there is that they want everything for everyone, but when it comes to raising money by taxation to pay for those things they baulk. They have the faith but they have not the good works, or they do not show any good works.

We vote against Fianna Fáil and that is enough.

I listened to Deputy O'Hara last night and he reminded me of Tennyson's brook. He spoke about the Moy. He spoke about the fact that the work on the Moy is nearing completion as a consequence of which gangers will have to be dismissed. For so long as I can remember in this House, Deputies from Mayo, particularly on the opposite side of the House, have been speaking about the Moy. Now it appears that Deputy O'Hara wants work on the Moy to go on forever.

What about the Shannon?

Listening to Deputy O'Hara last night, and again today, I gathered that he wants work on the Moy to go on forever more like Tennyson's brook. He should remember that there are other drainage areas that have to be tackled.

Like the Shannon.

Rivers have to be drained. Deputy Dunne reminds me of the Shannon.

Are Fianna Fáil getting the Shannon ready again?

I can recall the wonderful speech Deputy Dunne made about the Shannon.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary give us a few bars of it?

I will leave that to Deputy Dunne who is an authority on the Shannon.

I got the story from a man who has since gone to his reward.

I should like to hear the Deputy's own version. Deputy O'Hara should remember that there are other drainage areas that require attention, and that the Office of Public Works cannot concentrate on the Moy and keep it going forever like Tennyson's brook. If it is tapering to an end as it appears to be, there are other areas where the work is also tapering to an end.

Indeed there are.

In the KylemoreCappagh catchment area in my own district work has been going on over the past three or four years and it is now drawing to an end. I am not making a plea that work in that catchment area should go on forever. I am realistic enough to realise that there are other drainage districts that have to be done. People should be delighted that the drainage work on the Moy is nearing completion. According to Deputy O'Hara, too, the people are about to sing a Dies Irae so far as Fianna Fáil are concerned, and that our end is drawing close. We have been hearing that sort of thing so often since 1932 that very few people now believe it.

The people have confidence and trust in this Government. Statements and prophecies have been made recently. Calumnies have been uttered. This appears to be part of the general pattern that always precedes an onslaught on Fianna Fáil. If someone has allegations and charges to make they should be substantiated. There will always be a generation that will believe them as there was in the past. To undermine the confidence of the community in the Government, in any Government, by making such statements is bad not only for the Government and Members of this House, but also for Parliament as a whole.

I was here the other day when a responsible Deputy made allegations and circulated wild rumours without specifying what he was talking about or naming anyone. It was so bad that the Leader of the Labour Party called on him to state what he was talking about. That is what they should do. If they have charges to make of corruption or what have you, they should name people so that these charges can be investigated and the Head of the Government can make the necessary inquiries.

All Parties in the House approve of the fact that moneys have been raised to extend educational facilities. We have witnessed great changes over the past few years, and more luck to the Legislature that enacted these laws and voted the moneys required to give us an increased number of schools, a new system and free transport. One thing that is not getting as much attention as it should is the question of mentally retarded children and in particular their transport. In Galway city which is within 25 miles of where I live, a number of these children are attending special schools. The friends and parents of these mentally retarded children are arranging a rota system for transporting the children to day schools and residential schools.

I would ask the Department of Education in conjunction with CIE to arrange for the free transport of those children to Galway so far as accommodation is available. While the accommodation might not be 100 per cent and might not meet all the requirements, a certain amount of accommodation is available. They have arranged some schemes. I do not think there are sufficient to meet the requirements of the people. I think we all feel, having a special regard for this type of child, that we would like them to be singled out for special attention even at the expense of other children, if that were necessary.

I compliment the Acting Minister for Finance on seeing that the economy of this country is kept on a sound footing and that if money is necessary to run services the people will be told that it is necessary. They will be told how it is being raised and they will know for what it is being raised.

Does that mean a referendum next year again?

You have just come in from the Glenties.

That is not in the constituency. It could have been.

We must arrange a new constituency for you. In winding up the Financial Statement the Taoiseach as Acting Minister for Finance said:

The Government are confident that the House and the people will realise that the proposals are intended and are needed to safeguard our economic progress. I know full well that the increases in taxes and charges will not be welcomed but this Government never flinched from taking unpopular measures when they are necessary.

I defy any Member of the Opposition to explain how the increased production of butter and wheat and the increases in the public services could have been provided for by any method other than the methods in this Financial Statement.

The main theme of the Parliamentary Secretary's speech has been the question of confidence in the Government. No matter how often the Taoiseach says on television or anywhere else that the referendum was not a political matter, the truth is it was. The proposal came from a political Party, was voted through this House with the majority that Party enjoy and financed not only by these people themselves but, according to the Taoiseach, by £100,000 of the people's money — money voted by the majority of this House with the other Parties all voting against it. They produced a specific proposal to the people that was defeated by 267,000 votes. I was extremely lax in not correcting a statement of mine when I was reported as saying three-quarters of a million votes. It was somewhat more than a quarter million votes. They were defeated by these votes having made their proposals, put them through this House, with everybody else voting against them and having gone to the people confident that the majority for Fianna Fáil would see them home. Where is the confidence the Parliamentary Secretary is talking about? Where is the confidence in the institutions of the State, or in the Party in Government when in fact their proposals, voted against by every other person in this House, ended up defeated by 267,000 votes? May I say if they had not skin on their necks as thick as the heaviest grease on the oldest animal in this country they would go to the country like men.

Like you did in 1956?

You are afraid to go.

You were delighted to go.

I want to deal with this theme that has been repeated again and again from the Government benches and by my personal friend, the Parliamentary Secretary, a most sociable and nice man.

Mr. Belton

But in the wrong Party.

He merely repeated what has been said from the back and front benches "Why did you go to the country in 1956?".

You had the biggest majority any Government ever had.

At that time Fianna Fáil had created a situation where there was a lack of confidence in some people in the Government of the time. We were prepared to go to the people and give them their choice. What is now proposed by the Fianna Fáil Party from the front and back benches, referendum or otherwise, is: When you get in power you stick there, no matter what the people outside think. You stick there for your own Party political purposes and for no other purpose.

I want to suggest confidence in the Government is non-existent at this stage today. I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary that it was, of course, necessary to do something because of the economic trends at this time. That was necessary for one reason only. Last April there was a political Budget designed to get Fianna Fáil home in the referendum, designed to make the people happy, to give them a tranquilliser pill and put them to sleep. Thank God, the people of Ireland could still see the duplicity of the Fianna Fáil Party. They could see they were trying by any means in their power, by using the Budget and the people's money — while not addressing themselves to the cares of State — to instal themselves in power for the next 20 years.

I do not want to dwell too long on this. This supplementary Budget is necessary because of the sins of the Budget of April, 1968. I am proud of the fact that I was able on that occasion to point out those sins. If anyone desires the reference they can get it in the debate on the "no confidence" motion a fortnight ago. I said it was a referendum Budget last April. Let us face the fact that the Government Deputies and the Parliamentary Secretary have clarified and crystallised this.

They have one purpose only, and that is to stay in power no matter how it is done, and not to give the people the chance to say whether they want them to remain in power. They are not prepared to stand before the people but want to take their full term. I might use the expression "set up the bar". Let me explain that term. When one is at a pitch and toss school one "sets up the bar". Sometimes the clever man sets up the bar to his own advantage. He might set it up against a hill. They are "setting up the bar".

The Fianna Fáil Party are prepared to use and abuse their opportunities as the caretakers of this State. They are prepared to use and abuse the Budget and every Estimate for the purpose of staying in power. They have proved it by their action in the referendum and in the Electoral Amendment Bill which is coming before us now, and by every action. Theirs are not the cares of State. They are caring for themselves, and for nothing else. How base this is, how completely ridiculous, how completely divorced from people who are prepared to give for their country instead of take! I think they have reached the end of their tether.

No doubt about it.

I would like to quote Deputy Dillon when he said time and time again in this House over the last few years "Give them plenty of rope and they will hang themselves." If they have not hung themselves at this stage there is indeed a case for soaping the rope in case it might not slip.

I want to deal with the allegations of the Parliamentary Secretary when dealing with the allegations of corruption made here by Deputy James Dillon. I want to say, first and foremost, that the personal character, integrity, family life and contribution to the State of Deputy James Dillon stand unchallenged against anybody, from Deputy Seán Lemass, Deputy Jack Lynch and the President of Ireland, down. There is no man in this State or in this House who can say that Deputy James Dillon ever "did" anybody a penny. I shall not deal with the things he said. I shall deal with one thing and one thing only. I shall refer you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, to the debate of last week and the reply of the Taoiseach, Deputy Lynch, when interrupted by Deputy L'Estrange, on the question of whether or not there had been a settlement in court because there was — shall we say — a civil action because somebody had not got paid for getting a planning permission made and when a settlement had occurred in court and was on the court records——

The Chair does not think that this is relevant.

I will pass from it by saying that, when that was so, the reply of the Taoiseach was that court records were not evidence. If he wants "out" by the side door, he can have it but there is as much oil flowing from these matters as if Universe Ireland blew up. Let nobody attack Deputy Dillon. There is not anybody on those benches opposite fit to clean his boots and there never was. I will pass from that and say no more.

The selective wholesale tax has been raised from five per cent to 10 per cent. That means that the farmer who buys a hammer in order to drive a nail, the farmer who buys the head of a clippers in order to shear his sheep, the industrialist who tells his fitter that he should buy a new set of tools, new spanners or a new drill or any of these things related to production, will pay to the Government, not five per cent but 10 per cent.

I want to suggest that there is within this mini-Budget a very great measure of over-estimation and that the purpose is quite simple, namely, to have an easy Budget in the spring and to go to the country and try to cod the people again. I do not think the people will be codded this time.

Let us also realise that if one is building a house, if the doors of that house, interior or exterior, were made off the site, as happens in 99 per cent of cases at the moment, the Government will take from that, not five per cent, but 10 per cent. I suggest to you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, that these people of duplicity, who must be removed from office if Ireland is to progress — and I am confident it will happen in the next few months — will exact from the people far more than, in fact, they have budgeted for in this mini-Budget which I call a maxi-Budget. I want to suggest to you that the scope of the selective wholesale tax is so all-enveloping that they are over-budgeting, that they are doing it deliberately and, therefore, that they are fiddling with the people's finances.

I do not want to go into the taxation on particular commodities such as cigarettes, beer and spirits but the selective wholesale tax is the usual Fianna Fáil slithery one in among all the rest that will mean that the people will pay far more without realising it.

I should like to deal now with the resultant impact on wages. In this country we have good institutions. Our employers' organisations are decent, good institutions. Our trade union organisations are decent, good institutions. Remember, employers have a duty to their wives and families, to their investors and, if they exist on a bank overdraft, to their bankers, and that duty will be exacted by their families, their investors and their bankers. Therefore, they must seek at all times to produce in respect of each £, each man and each machine employed a proper profit. Let us remember what we were all talking about last night. The Taoiseach, Cardinal Conway, I, representing Deputy Cosgrave, and Deputy Dunne, representing Deputy Corish — I noticed that Deputy Moore was there also — were talking about greater productivity. I have dealt first with the employers. When each section of the community desires to get its proper due and knows that its facet of production will go down if it does not, then it will look for it. Similarly, as Deputy Dunne pointed out last night, the trade union side will look for their due. Therefore, if there is a greater impact of taxation, proportionately there will be industrial chaos in the next two or three months.

Let us face the fact that, as everybody knows, civil servants and employees of State institutions were held up in their pay demands because the Department of Finance suggested a two year agreement and 11 per cent, not more than seven per cent in the first year and the other four per cent in the second year. When the referendum dawned on the horizon, they settled for nine per cent for one year and there were no remarks passed about the second year. Again, this is evidence that the Government, in order to stay in power, will prostitute anything, will do anything that is possible for them in order to ensure that, not in justice but in power, they will succeed. I believe passionately that, by any means, they must leave power, because they have reached this stage of degradation.

I was interested to hear the remarks of the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Carty, on education. In regard to education, let us get this thing straight. I went to a country school across the fields and there was nothing in it but dry toilets and an oil lamp, and I was 45 years of age on 29th October last. That was the lot of most of the people, except those living in towns, who occupy the benches here today. That remained the position until about eight years ago. At that time Fine Gael produced their policy for education and eventually the tide of public opinion was running to such an extent against the Government that the late Deputy Donogh O'Malley was put in charge of education, as being a man of revolutionary ideas, as a man who would create a stir. He created a stir but, just like Fianna Fáil in relation to housing, the neglect and delay of all the years has meant that they cannot catch up. In fact, if Fine Gael are in Government in the next four months, which I think we will be, we will have such a mess to clear up, such a backlog of capital work, that the criticism and abuse that we shall have to take from Fianna Fáil, in Opposition, will be quite unbearable.

There are people who would opt out of that situation. I want to assure the House that Fine Gael are not opting out of that situation and Deputy Liam Cosgrave is not opting out of that situation. We believe that notwithstanding the — shall we say — minor gerrymandering of the constituencies, which would have been major if they had got their way in the referendum, the few seats they keep shall not matter very much and that, in fact, what will happen is that Fine Gael will be the next Government inside the next four months. We will take on our shoulders the load of neglect that lies on the country, as we did between 1954 and 1957, because we passionately believe — Deputy Cosgrave believes it as well as every other member of the Fine Gael Front Bench — that we have got to get Fianna Fáil out of office, that they are rancid, impossible, degraded, that they are prepared to stay in power by any means. I make no reservations on that score.

The Parliamentary Secretary asked if there was any evidence of corruption in the allocation of grants and I will deal with the question specifically. If there is a change of Government and if Deputy Cosgrave does not sack me, I will be Minister for Industry and Commerce and I would have to deal with the people giving these grants. I do not believe there has been any corruption as far as the official side is concerned but I should like to give the trend of events in relation to Taiscí Stáit since its foundation. The first bad run came when the Industrial Credit Company were asked to produce £1,800,000 because 1,000 men might be thrown into unemployment in Dundalk. The board of the company said it was not a commercial risk and subsequent events proved they were correct. That having occurred, the Government said they would underwrite the risk and they did so. As I have said, the board of ICC proved correct: the thing was not successful and the Government did a good job over the years by providing employment at very heavy cost. That experience having proved to them that they would be criticised by commercial people on State boards, they floated Taiscí Stáit and after the formation of that body, when they desired to give a loan they could give it, if they wished, directly by Cabinet decision. Most of the loan for Potez came in that way.

That is why I say that these Cabinet decisions on whether loans were given were, if successful, attributable to the Cabinet for praise, and if unsuccessful they were attributable to the Cabinet for blame. The dreadful, spectacular failures we have had have been far too many. I do not wish to go into the details but if the Minister for Transport and Power, who is present, desires me to take his own constituency I will do so because it is my job, looking after industry and commerce for Fine Gael, to know these things, to be able to find them out. It is no difficulty for me, if facts and figures are required, to deal with County Monaghan and why money went wrong.

The Chair hopes the Deputy will not go into detail. It will be relevant when we come to deal with the particular Estimate.

Thank you for correcting me. I move to another matter mentioned by Deputy Carty. He asked who in this House could have said there would be a loss of £1½ million this year on wheat. Let us face it. Two days ago we had the announcement of the price of wheat for next year on the assessment of the flour millers and the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. The tonnage of Irish wheat has been reduced from 265,000 to 240,000 and a levy will be introduced later in relation to the difference between the price of Irish wheat for feeding over and above the 240,000 tons which the people will eat. The situation this year, therefore, was known last spring but, of course, the referendum was coming up. I am in the wheat business up to my tonsils but it was not my job to say there would be a levy. It was the Minister's job to say it and if I were over there and he over here I would have told the people the truth.

I am not advocating a levy on wheat. I am merely saying that the use of State finances for political ends must end — the deliberate use and abuse of the finances of the people must end. That is the reason why Fianna Fáil must leave office. I would not have mentioned that matter if the Parliamentary Secretary had not done so.

Let us move now to a report by a non-political body which was presented to Deputies two days ago. It is the report of the National Industrial Economic Council. The members of that body are known. The chairman is the Secretary of the Department of Finance. There is Mr. Boland, our long-time representative at the United Nations. There is Mr. Cuffe, representing the Federated Union of Employers. There is Mr. Jackson of Guinness. There is Mr. J. C. B. McCarthy, Secretary of the Department of Industry and Commerce. There is Mr. Charles McCarthy, representing the Trade Union Congress. There is Senator D. F. Murphy and others. All of them are in business, in trade unions, the lot. They produced this report and I adduce it as the reason for the mini-Budget. It reviews the results of the Second Programme for Economic Expansion and on page one there is a table which refers to the percentage annual average growth rate between 1964 and 1967.

According to the Second Programme, our gross national product was to advance by 4.3 per cent per annum during that period. It advanced by 3.3 per cent, a deficit, or failure, of one per cent. In agriculture, we were meant to advance in growth rate by 3.8 per cent per annum. We advanced 0.8 per cent, three per cent behind. In industry our growth rate was meant to advance by seven per cent but we advanced by only 5.8 per cent, 1.2 per cent behind. In other domestic activities, the growth rate was said to advance by 3.6 per cent per annum. It advanced by 2.6 per cent, one per cent behind.

On the question of consumption, it was felt that our people could live better. This is important because there is no point in having advances of all sorts if the people cannot live better. In private consumption, in which we were supposed to advance by 3.6 per cent per annum, we advanced by 2.5 per cent, in other words, 1.1 per cent behind. The Minister for Transport and Power is a great man for statistics and I hope we will hear something from him on this. Public consumption is also important because it involves schools, housing and all that sort of thing. The Second Programme forecast an advance under this heading of 6.4 per cent. We advanced by 2.4 per cent, 4 per cent behind.

If we do not get investment, we do not provide jobs, and under the heading investment we were to advance by 4.4 per cent per year. In fact, we advanced by 1.2 per cent. Imports were meant to go up from 4.6 per cent to 7.3 per cent per annum. They went up to 7.1 per cent. If we can make more at home it is a good thing, and in this matter of imports we have the first optimistic note — the figure is only 0.2 per cent off the target. We reached the target in exports: we were meant to advance from 4.9 per cent to 7.9 per cent and the figure was 8.1 per cent. This was mainly because of exports of cattle which we will not have during the next two years. The Fianna Fáil heifer subsidy has failed abysmally. It was a badly done job. They would not do what we told them to do four years before and they produced a different one. Because they could not produce the Fine Gael one they failed.

We were to increase employment yearly by one per cent, a very modest figure that I am sure would not satisfy my friend, Deputy Seán Dunne. In fact, we decreased by 0.1 per cent which meant a failure of 1.1 per cent per year. Let us follow on to what the position is as given to Deputies. I quote from the Industrial Analysis of the Live Register for November, 1968. The Live Register of unemployed is not as important a figure as that for persons working. The figure I quoted was in relation to the numbers working and I am now about to give you from the Live Register the number of persons unemployed.

On the 13th September, 1968, the figure was 2,695 people fewer than it is in November of this year. From the 13th October, 1967, to the same date in this year there are 4,145 people more unemployed. Is there any reason that anyone can think of why there should be a mini-Budget other than that the real facts were closed off from the people last May, the purpose of the exercise being to get them to vote "Yes" in the referendum.

It is very disturbing if you have been 15 years in this House and have done your best — and maybe you have not been any more an angel than anybody else — to find that people on the other side of the House are prepared to prostitute every political act in order to remain in office. The suggestion across the House from the Parliamentary Secretary today was that we ran away in 1957. What are they doing now? They are like the fox that will not come out of his hole; you have to dig him out. Might I suggest that, when you do, the hounds will be waiting.

Smoke him out.

It might be easier to smoke them out. They are afraid to meet the people. They will meet them not in justice, not in the fair approach of political argument, not on the test of the last election, but they will be like the chap setting up the ball, like the people playing pitch and toss and throwing the halfpennies to settle odds. I want to ask the people of Ireland from these benches if they want Fianna Fáil to do that, or do they think they should be suited rather than Fianna Fáil? The people of Ireland should be suited. Fianna Fáil are not their masters but their servants.

I should like to refer, Sir, to the disappointing growth in agricultural output referred to on page 6, paragraph 2, of the report of the National Industrial Economic Council which reads:

The disappointing growth in agricultural output occurred despite the fact that monetary transfers to the agricultural sector from the rest of the community grew much faster than the programme envisaged.

I do not agree with that statement because I do not think that there are monetary transfers from the community. There would be a correction of prices to make up for the dumping of goods, if we opened our ports to agricultural goods, even butter and beef. You could then buy cheaper beef here than anywhere else. These are not monetary transfers but corrections, necessary corrections, but they are not accepted by GATT or any international body that deals with the handling of produce. But, whether this is or is not the truth, the fact is that the backbone of this country and that which will keep people working in factories is good agricultural exports.

As I have said many times, people will soon realise that if a bullock goes out of this country at £90 he probably leaves £80 with us because he eats our grass, he is fed on our grain and he is exported, whereas in fact an industrial article produced here may have been the end product of imported raw material which was then reexported. Re-exporting is a very good thing from the point of view of employment of our people. I want to suggest that industry cannot advance; there cannot be an expansion in industry; there cannot be buoyancy in the whole economic situation until we have a prosperous and satisfied agricultural community.

I should like to suggest to you, Sir, that one of the reasons for this mini-Budget was not that we had Deputy Blaney as Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, but that we had a Taoiseach who was prepared to go on television and back him up. In the last five days we had the Taoiseach extending the olive branch to the farmers and then going back on his word. We had leading articles in the Irish Times and the Irish Independent pointing to the fact that the row was still on. Are the Government to descend on the farmers with new strictures about increasing production? You can bring a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink.

The NIEC, a non-political body, pointed to a paramount failure. There are some political persons on this body but these are drawn from all Parties. The figures I have quoted from the first page of this document show our failure in targets from the time of the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. This results from the fact that agriculture in the first instance never got a chance, and there never was co-operation between the Minister and the people. It ended up in an unholy row. I do not see how the sort of fellows I know, the decent young fellows living on a little land with rushes in their fields, who are being asked to pay loans and do capital works and increase their production can do this. Perhaps they should go instead to their neighbours and talk about the vicissitudes of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries.

The Taoiseach backs the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries to the hilt and this is the whole point. The present Taoiseach and his predecessor have backed the sins of their Ministers to the very hilt. I do not want to delay the House too long on this matter. I feel strongly about it. I want to make the point that our progress towards full employment has failed. I had hoped, and I acted on a joint Labour Committee in the Labour Court, that a certain item of Fine Gael policy might, perhaps, have come right through the Public Service, the local authorities and the ordinary industrial employment in this country in this year of 1968. Something we were trying to do as far back as six years ago was to produce a contract of service, something adopted a year or so after that by Aer Lingus, Guinness and various other people. The sort of thing I am talking about is a two year agreement whereby in the first year there is an increase in pay budgeted on the probable increase in the cost of living, a further increase on the anniversary date, a discussion in the meantime on productivity, certain agreements on productivity, certain arrangements of hours, a detailed production.

That might take a committee in the Labour Court, perhaps, as long as ten, 12, 15 or 20 sessions. Remember when one gets into industry at the top level one finds that some of the best men involved are involved in trade relations. This was coming to a stage when it, perhaps, could have produced the start of a prices and incomes policy. One of the things about a prices and incomes policy that I firmly believe in is that it does not have to succeed 100 per cent to be successful. If you can get away from this stop-go system, if you can be 70 per cent successful, then you have done a great job for your country. Many people thought that and worked very hard for it but in the middle of it all the referendum occurred and instead of having an arrangement whereby there was a two year system with a discussion on hours, a discussion on terms, a discussion on all these things and the phased increase that might have produced the start of a prices and incomes policy, Fianna Fáil under Deputy Jack Lynch, the Taoiseach, and Deputy Neil Blaney, master politician until he went over the rails, and all the rest of them, threw all this over the side because the referendum was to be decided. That is the measure of their help for Ireland. That is the measure of their regard for the people.

I want to suggest to you, Sir, that there is only one way that we can now face the future and that is by the removal from office of the Fianna Fáil junta and the installation in office of a Fine Gael Government which will occur anyway and more important that if they like they can wait because theirs is the power, they are on a slippery slope and every month will cost them another two seats.

When speaking on taxation we should recall the words of Edmund Burke who one time said: "There is no man wise enough to tax and to please or to love and be wise". Whatever about the latter part of his saying the first part is surely true. Surely no Government would impose taxation unless they thought it was very necessary? We have ample proof that it was very necessary at this time. Even since the Taoiseach as Acting Minister for Finance brought in these measures he has been vindicated by the newspapers of last Saturday morning which gave the official trade return for the month of October. In that month the adverse trade balance rose by £8½ million. Any Government seeing these signs and not taking corrective measures should not be in Government. The present Government, under the Taoiseach, Deputy Jack Lynch, displayed the traditional courage of the Fianna Fáil Party by facing up to this difficult situation in the best way possible. They could have decided on other means. They could have cut back on social services, education and various things but that would not have been in our tradition. They could have imposed import levies. In that respect I recall the action of a previous Government who saw the trade balance running into dangerous waters and took no action until the last minute even though most people at the time admitted that the then Government had difficulties and urged them to take some measures. One morning we read of all the new levies which were put on overnight and as a result thousands of our people lost their jobs. The Government went out of office shortly after that.

We are not alone in this country in taking such measures. The British Government at the moment are planning to take more severe measures because they, too, have their difficulties. If one looks at France one sees that they are taking really drastic measures because of the position of the franc and their trading situation. I believe the people see the necessity for this. As Edmund Burke said nobody but God Almighty could tax and please but the people have the intelligence to face up to this position and say: "Yes, we believe measures must be taken. We do not like them." It is like being ordered by a doctor to take medicine. You do not like taking it but it is very necessary. I believe the people will vindicate the action of the Government in facing up to this matter.

It has been suggested here and in other places that if you change the system things will be all right. History is full of individuals who thought they had a short cut to prosperity and happiness. Lenin, Hitler and many others decided that the slow way, the democratic way, was not the way to the full happiness of the people. They took short cuts but they still have not produced the perfect society and, of course, they never will with these measures. Even in Czechoslovakia, recently invaded by the Russians, one of the complaints from the Czech people was the fact that the western democracies under free enterprise were doing far better than their people were doing under communism. Surely we must take heed of the lessons of history which show that a man must pay his way whether in his own life or in the life of the nation and it is only by paying its way that a nation can survive? There is no use in telling airy-fairy stories of socialism and unbridled capitalism or anything else. There is a very simple lesson whether it is taught to us by Adam Smith or any other economist. We have got to get back to the fact that we must work and produce and earn money and we will find our own salvation in our own methods.

Last Sunday was Human Rights day. People inside and outside this House referred to the tax on cigarettes and on the pint but I wonder have we got the courage in this country and in this Oireachtas to go out for full human rights? Are we prepared to declare war on poverty and to impose taxes to abolish poverty? The standard of living of our people compares favourably with most countries in the world. Wealthy countries like Germany and the United States have a much higher standard of living but whether they are a happier people is a question. We hear in speeches from the Opposition that we should do more for the farmers, more for education, more for everything, but the crunch comes when a Government must impose taxation to do some of those things.

This generation will be tested by history on what has been done for old, disabled and sick people and on these counts the record of the Fianna Fáil Government will stand any examination. In every Budget they have brought in there was always something for the old people, the blind, the widows and orphans. We often say that, perhaps, this is not enough, that it is not sufficient in budgeting to say there is so much for the disabled, the old and the blind. We should have the courage to go forward and say that these are our first charges, that we provide for their needs and after that go on to those less needy. When we speak of cigarettes and the workman's pint we should surely spare a thought for the fact that if we speak here for even a quarter of an hour thousands of youngsters have died of starvation in Biafra, despite our puny efforts to alleviate this frightful, almost worldwide starvation situation in which twothirds of the people have not enough to eat. If the Minister for External Affairs came to the Minister for Finance saying we should give X pounds for relief immediately we would be assailed not because we were giving to these people but because we would have to increase taxation to do so. It is time that we looked at ourselves in this age of human rights and considered how sincere we are in regard to what we want to do for those people who cannot very well help themselves.

It has often been said that the world democracies are losing touch with the people. To some extent, perhaps, this is true not only of our own Oireachtas but also of Britain, France, the USA and others. Frequently this may be because suggestions or allegations are made in a democratic State that all is not as it should be on the government side. Last week Deputy Dillon of Fine Gael came into the House and made certain allegations. Deputy Dillon is a long-serving and respected Member of the House and even Members on this side hold him in very high regard but last week when he made a speech about alleged land transactions by members of the Government I think he dealt a harder blow to democracy than any subversive group in the country because he undermined the faith of the people, not in the Government, but in Parliament as a whole. If he had proof of these allegations he should have named people or should have gone to the Attorney General and given him the facts to investigate. Unfortunately, he came here, made allegations against the Government without a bit of evidence and mentioned no names despite the fact that he was speaking, as I am, under Parliamentary privilege.

When the Nazis set out to gain power in Germany one of their biggest weapons before they adopted physical force was to undermine democracy by telling stories about corruption and all sorts of malpractices in the Government of Germany. Later, when the Nazis suggested themselves as a Government the people said: "What have we to lose?" So democracy was swept away in Germany and the Nazis took over power. We all know how dearly the German people and, indeed, Europe have paid for that mistake.

Democracy with all its faults has also its great virtues and the Irish people, who passionately believe in democracy, have now begun to doubt if it is such an effective system because of the charges made against it by Members of the Dáil. If Deputy Dillon has this information let him give the proof to the Taoiseach or the Attorney General. Let us have the charges proved and these allegations probed so that at least we shall clear the good name of Parliament because, with all due respect to Deputy Dillon, I do not accept his allegations. Very often here we say things in the heat of the moment for which we are sorry afterwards but when a Deputy comes in and coldly, probably in a prepared speech, makes such allegations as I have referred to, he does democracy no service and he has certainly weakened the tie which we want strengthened between the people and the Oireachtas.

Another Fine Gael Deputy spoke about the housing situation in Dublin. I shall refer only briefly to the 1957 position. It is often said that when Fine Gael left office there were too many houses. My answer to that is that we had too few people because of heavy emigration in preceding years. If anybody does not take my word for it they can go to the official statistics and to Dublin Corporation and see how many empty houses they had at that time. It took us almost two years to restore progress in housing.

What happened in 1957 is over and done with but what is happening in 1968 is another matter. An official report of the Dublin Corporation housing committee last Friday night shows that at the moment there are 2,430 dwellings under construction and tenders have been received or development works are in progress for another 2,805 making a grand total of 5,230. I wonder is there any city in Europe of comparable size which can show a housing drive of such magnitude. I emphasise that I am referring merely to the corporation's housing drive and I am not mentioning the county council or Dún Laoghaire Borough Council or the private building which involves hundreds of houses in this city.

A total of 5,230 dwellings are under way plus some 100 temporary dwellings. This all takes a great deal of money and the Government must find the money or the houses will not be built. If we are criticised for taxation we are taxing for a good purpose. At present Dublin Corporation's indebtedness is about £30 million of which about £28 million is for housing. We may be criticised for many things but as regards housing at present in Dublin I think we are doing a very good job. We are, perhaps, still not satisfied that we are making the greatest possible progress but if we can maintain this drive the old legacy of bad housing which we inherited in Dublin will be gone, thanks to a Government which at all times has given housing top priority. Surely they should tax people in order to provide houses for those who cannot provide them for themselves? This has always been the policy of the Fianna Fáil Government.

Deputy Donegan in his speech referred also to some of the allegations which have been made against the Government. I do not speak as a partisan politician on this but I say that if these Deputies he mentioned have proof of any misdemeanours on the part of any Members on this side of the House they have a duty to come forward with the proof because when an allegation is made against this side of the House by members of the Opposition, they are also condemning their own side who are part of this assembly.

When the people hear these allegations they lose faith in the Government and they lose faith in democracy. There are a number of people, perhaps not a very great number, who are working very hard towards the time when democracy will be treated as it was in Nazi Germany. If that time should come, it will then be too late for the people to realise how baseless the allegations against Fianna Fáil were.

I do not wish to continue much longer but before concluding I wish to compliment the Taoiseach on doing the very unenviable job in the way he did. He had to find the taxation. Although the people may criticise us, I am sure they will admire the integrity of the Government. The Government could have taken an easier way out and have had no second Budget but eventually, as the previous Government found out, the moment of truth has to be faced. Fianna Fáil have met this challenge of threatened inflation and have taken measures which we trust will check this run on the trade figures and which will be passed on to the people eventually.

One of the reasons for the Budget was the fact that drawings from the Savings Bank were exceedingly large. Once that happens in any country there is a danger sign. While on this point, I should like the Post Office Savings Committee — who are doing a very good job — to step up the tempo of their efforts to promote more savings. No matter how small the amount in the Post Office Savings Bank is it can give us more money for capital development which, in turn, will mean more jobs. To say, as Deputy Donegan has said, that we are not facing realities in regard to employment is not true.

The Minister for Labour, speaking on Saturday night last at the bankers' dinner, said that we were not producing jobs at the rate at which they were needed. This is something we must face up to. Even though productivity has increased tremendously the jobs that we hoped for have not come about. I judge the success of any Budget by the number of jobs it will provide and by the number of houses it will provide and by the other real benefits to the people but we must say that jobs are not coming as fast as we would wish.

We must, therefore, join with the Minister, in reminding the bankers that we want this position changed and that we want a flow of jobs to offer to every man and woman in the country who wishes to remain here. I do not know of any country in the world where there is total employment, unless it is compulsory employment, and we do not want that here.

In conclusion, I wish again to compliment the Taoiseach and the Government on the way they are dealing with this problem and I believe that the people, even though they may criticise us will realise what the Government are doing. I trust that the people will accept the impositions placed on them by the Budget because this has been done in the interests of the people themselves.

I hope, too, that next year we shall see a great increase in the number of houses and in the number of jobs and that we will be able to give in benefits much more than we can give this year. I hope the people will face up to the circumstances as the Government have done on this occasion.

At this stage in the debate most, if not all, that can be said has been said. Therefore, I shall be as brief as possible. My view, as a Deputy of this House, on taxation — I do not profess to be an economist nor do I take on myself the right to direct a Government in the way in which taxation should be levied or collected — is that the first obligation of any Government, of any good Government, is to control inflation. In spite of this, no matter how rigid the control may be, inflation will take place. This has been a natural development since the beginning of time, since we got away from the barter system. We have had to live with inflation and governments in societies such as ours have endeavoured, during the whole history of time, to fight inflation.

Therefore, no matter how stringent are the controls that are taken, inflation will take place but if a Government neglect their duty and if a Government, purely for Party political gains, introduce Budgets which are entirely designed with a view to the future of that Government and that political Party, then they are not living up to their obligations. If a Government encourage inflation we will live in a period in which the real value of property cannot easily be assessed. We will live in an era in which the racketeers and, indeed, the "Tacateers" can take full advantage of their playing a very prominent part in encouraging this spiral of inflation. They will speculate by purchasing property and that property will appreciate so much that when they offer it for sale it will have held its value because of the terms of the appreciation.

Too many people who are close to some members of Fianna Fáil have become rich overnight. This is an unhealthy sign and this, in my humble judgment, is why the Government were rejected in the terms in which they were rejected, in the recent referendum. Admittedly, there was some merit in their proposals but the arguments against them were so great that I could not see, by any stretch of my imagination, a Fianna Fáil victory in that referendum. The reason the people rejected them was that they were afraid to give to those who have now taken control of the Government, those who had not the courage to stand before the people and to be elected in this House, the power which they sought, because they did not trust them. They did not distrust them because backbench members of the Fianna Fáil Party made statements in rural Ireland that certain——

At this stage, I should like to direct the attention of the Deputy to the fact that we are discussing the Budget and not what might be regarded as part of last week's debate.

I shall move away from that point now. I just want to say that I do not think the people rejected the Government in the manner in which they did because Deputies of the Fianna Fáil back benches made speeches or because they promised things and could not fulfil the promises or because they have failed in their duties as public representatives. I do not think the people have lost confidence in the Fianna Fáil Party because back-bench members have fallen short of what they were elected to this House to do. I am convinced beyond all shadow of doubt that the reason the Government sustained such a defeat was that the people are not prepared to trust them any more because people in groups, now commonly described as "Taca", have more control over Government expenditure than have members of the back benches of Fianna Fáil.

It does not take a very experienced financier to forecast what taxation is needed to run a country for 12 months. However, the modern trend seems to be that it is now only necessary for a Minister for Finance to balance the books for six months. Like other Deputies, I should just like, at this stage, to wish the Minister for Finance, Deputy Haughey, well and a speedy return to the House. When introducing the annual Budget in April last the Minister stated he would be less than honest with his Government, with Parliament, and with the people if he were to increase taxation over and above what he had asked for in that Budget. However, within six months, the former Minister for Finance — the present Taoiseach, Deputy Jack Lynch, who made such a hash of one of his Budgets that a former Minister for Finance, Deputy MacEntee, felt it necessary to write a detailed letter to the Irish Times criticising him and asking him what went wrong with his Budget — introduces a second Budget which he describes as “mini”. However, it is not so “mini” when we look at it.

Was there bad foresight on the part of the Government in the early part of the year? I believe there was either bad foresight, because of incompetence, or it was introduced completely — I do not rule this out — for Party political gains. They knew, at that time of the year, that certain by-elections were pending and that a severe Budget at that time could have adverse effects on the results of the by-elections — and losing by-elections on what one could describe as the eve of a referendum could not be considered a healthy political situation either. Therefore, no Deputy could be blamed for thinking that one of the reasons Deputy Haughey did not introduce a proper Budget was that he could have made his Party that much more unpopular.

In an editorial in the Irish Independent of Saturday, 9th November, 1968, this Budget is described as an exceptionally heavy burden. It said that, with a relatively lenient major Budget last April, this one was unusually severe. That is how an editorial in the Irish Independent described this Budget which the Acting Minister for Finance, the Taoiseach, described as a “mini” Budget. Some of the provincial newspapers described it as a “maxi” Budget. No matter how it has been described, the full effects of this Budget will not be felt for some time and, of all the increases, I believe the increase in selective wholesale tax will prove the biggest mistake of this Government between now and the next general election because this will have an effect on a very wide variety of foodstuffs.

No consideration has been given to the less well-off in our society. The old age pensioners must exist on the sops which were given to them in recent Budgets. They can be codded by giving the old age pensioners an increased pension post-dated to a certain date: this is when the annual Budget is being introduced in April. However, by the time these people come to receive the increase, a second Budget, which the Taoiseach has the audacity to describe as a "mini" Budget, is introduced and, in effect, these people are receiving no benefits whatsoever. Is it any wonder we have the lowest and worst social service structure in Western Europe? Is it any wonder, in a Christian country such as Ireland, we have such a bad service for our aged, our infirm and our handicapped? Is it any wonder Deputies go on bended knees to institutions run by voluntary associations or religious Orders asking them, for God's sake, to admit a mentally-handicapped child from rural Ireland? Is it any wonder that we in public life refrain from bringing such a subject into the political arena — though we live in hope that someone will step into the breach and do something about this problem — believing that, if we mention these things publicly when we are speaking on political issues, people will point the finger of scorn and say: "He is using this subject for his personal advancement"?

Far be it from me to use a political platform to expose weaknesses in our society, particularly in the field of the mentally handicapped. The Government are falling far short of their obligations in this regard. The Government are not alive to what is needed in this regard.

I have the highest regard for the Minister for Health. He may be doing something, but he is not doing enough. Perhaps the Government are not going with him on the road he would like to travel. Whatever the reason, the fact remains that there are too many beds needed, too much accommodation required, to help solve this problem. The sooner some Government get to the grass roots of the problem and tackle it the better. There is a ludicrous situation in Donegal where the Donegal County Council with the consent of the Department and the Government handed over a hospital formerly used as a sanatorium——

A debate on hospitals would scarcely be relevant on the Budget.

Surely we are discussing taxation?

We are discussing taxation and financial policy but matters pertaining to health would relevantly arise on the Estimate for Health.

I quite agree and I do not want to go into it in detail but I want to use this occasion to point out to the House the bad policy in relation to hospitalisation in County Donegal.

It would not arise on this Budget debate.

I do not wish to come in conflict with you, Sir, just as you have taken the Chair, but the Budget debate has had such a wide scope to date that I should be allowed a few seconds to make a point. If you feel I am overdoing it, perhaps you would call me to order.

I think the Deputy should come back to the Budget.

With your consent I should like to mention one point briefly. It is a scandalous situation that the Donegal County Council with the consent of the Department of Health, which in effect is the Government, handed over to an association called CERT free, gratis and for nothing——

This does not arise.

They have converted that into an hotel at a cost of £240,000.

If the Deputy persists I will ask him to resume his seat. If he continues on those lines I will have no alternative but to ask him to resume his seat. This is a Financial Resolution——

Where does that £240,000 come from to convert this hospital?

That is a matter for the Estimate and it does not arise on the Budget.

Has the money not come from taxation?

That would open the debate very widely.

I will not overburden you with this——

The Deputy has overburdened us sufficiently and he should now come back to the Budget.

It is bad policy and it has been done with the consent of the Government. Deputy Moore asked what alternative taxation would the Fine Gael Party impose. We do not hope to put on any extra taxation but to give better government. This is the point I am trying to make and I am quite entitled——

It is entirely irrelevant.

The Chair has been wrong on other occasions.

The Chair has never been wrong.

I should be allowed to make my point. Every other Deputy——

The Deputy has been allowed to make his point and he should now come back to the Budget which is before the House.

The point I was making, Sir, before you came into the House was that the Fianna Fáil Government believe that this taxation was necessary. Taxation is certainly necessary but this taxation was never necessary. It is imposed because of mismanagement on the part of the Government, because of bad book-keeping and bad foresight and I am trying to bring out the point that, if there is a change of Government — and there is every indication that there will be, and the sooner the better — this Party can provide better government without extra taxation by providing honest government, just government and better book-keeping. One point which I was illustrating was the ludicrous situation in Donegal where a hospital was converted into an hotel at a cost of £240,000.

The Deputy has already referred to this matter and he should not refer to it again. He has already made the point.

I am merely explaining to the Chair——

It is not relevant.

The point I was making was that the Chair has made a mistake in calling me to order.

The Chair made no mistake in calling the Deputy to order.

In my view, the Chair did. However, we will leave it at that. Deputy Moore said that the Government found it necessary to introduce this Budget to increase housing. Deputy Moore must be fooling himself or else he is living in a fool's paradise. On the other hand, he could be playing up to the Fianna Fáil propaganda machine. Whatever he is doing, the fact is we are now building more houses than we did in 1966. The argument can be advanced that we are building more houses than we did in 1966 but in 1966 we built no houses at all. You are aware, Sir, that in County Donegal we hold the record of having built 47 houses in one year. In Strabane, just across the Border where the people are fighting for civil rights, Strabane Council is building more houses than the Donegal County Council. I can see civil rights marches in this city before long.

Deputy Moore spoke about the great housing drive in Dublin and, at the same time, spoke about what happened in Nazi Germany. Were it not for the names on the streets, on shops and on the buses if you woke up in Dublin without knowing where you were, you would imagine that you were in Nazi Germany after the War. The capital is a disgrace. When you leave the Parliament Buildings and move in any direction you will pass through derelict areas. This just did not happen by accident; this is part of the Government's policy. The Government in their first White Paper, which was a lead-up to the five-year plan which became the First Programme for Economic Expansion, decided that housing was a bad investment and that people would have to tolerate bad housing, that people living in bad houses would have to stay there so that Mr. Potez and his like could get handsome grants from the Government and fly off by night. This type of Government policy is wrong. This is the type of Government policy which the people have rejected.

These are some of the reasons why the people no longer trust Fianna Fáil. This is why the Fianna Fáil Party used gerrymandering to its full in order to try to retain power. You have gerrymandered the country, you have run the country into unwanted referenda, you have spent money wrongly, but no matter what you do, whether you postpone the general election for 12 months or until the constitutional period is up in 1970, no matter how long you sit there, the certainty is that there will be a change of Government. Even the most ardent Fianna Fáil supporters have lost confidence in the Government.

An amazing thing is that a Mr. K. Fitzsimons wrote to the Irish Press of Wednesday, 24th September last offering his resignation from the Fianna Fáil Party. Mr. Fitzsimons is an MA and was chairman of a Fianna Fáil Cumann for over 15 years. I do not know the gentleman but I understand that he is a gentleman in every respect and here are the reasons he gave for leaving Fianna Fáil:

It is with extreme regret and after long consideration that I tender herewith my resignation from the Fianna Fáil Party. There are many reasons for my doing so but I will list the more important ones.

1. It appears very evident that a well filled wallet is a more essential qualification than sincerity if one is to progress or even secure a right of audience in the present organised structure of the Party.

Here is a man who supported the Fianna Fáil Party and the Fianna Fáil Government all his life. Here is a man who begins his letter of resignation by saying: "It is with extreme regret..." I believe Mr. Fitzsimons is sincere. I believe he did not reach for his pen on a sudden impulse, deciding he should no longer support the Fianna Fáil Party. I believe he fought with his conscience for some time — maybe years, maybe months, certainly weeks. He decides he no longer can give the Government his support because the Government no longer have his confidence. His is not an isolated case, but this is a case in which a man with enough courage decides, at a very grave time for Fianna Fáil, to offer his resignation, and do it publicly.

There are many more people who no longer give the Fianna Fáil Party their support. It is not a case of the local Deputy not pulling his weight or neglecting to reply to a letter. It is not because of minor details that the Government have lost the confidence of the people. A Deputy may lose support; he may come under heavy fire, but he can always be replaced by a colleague under the system of proportional representation. When a Government lose the confidence of the people the only alternative — it is not the alternative Deputy Moore suggested, imposing more taxation — is to go to the country and say to the people: "If we have fallen short of the promises we made in 1965, if we have not implemented the policies we presented then for your consideration, then give another Party the mandate to govern. However, if you believe that, due to circumstances beyond our control, we deserve another chance, then give us a mandate, but let us wipe the slate clean here and now." This is what the Government should be considering at the moment. No Government, no leader of a Government, no businessman, no father even can control anything under his command if he has not got the confidence of those whom he is supposed to command. That is the situation pure and simple. I believe the Government realise they no longer can command the respect of the people. That is their own fault and, the longer they stay there, the surer it is they will be replaced when a general election is called.

Mr. Fitzsimons says later in the same letter:

There are many fine men, sincere men, in the Fianna Fáil Party, some very fine Ministers who quietly are doing the job to which they were appointed, but there are many more who have lost touch with the common man-in-the-street and whose only ambition seems to be to climb aboard the bandwaggon, collect as much as possible and chuck Kathleen Mavourneen overboard.

What does Mr. Fitzsimons suggest in these comments of his? Does he see the situation as I see it — too many people, faceless men, too close to the centre of gravity in the Fianna Fáil Government, who have got too rich too quickly to be healthy? I have nothing against a man succeeding in life. Many men have done so and many more will do so in the future, but there are too many smart Alecs — they have been described as the mohaired executive types — wandering the corridors of Leinster House and, as Deputy Oliver Flanagan said, carrying in their pocketbooks the private telephone number, which is ex-directory, of every Minister of State. I wonder how many loyal supporters of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, sincere men who believe in Fianna Fáil, could reach for a telephone and dial the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries. I wonder could Deputy Cunningham in the Minister's own constituency do it. Is this another reason why Mr. Fitzsimons no longer supports Fianna Fáil? Is it because he believes there are too many mohaired executive types wandering the corridors of Leinster House, walking in and out of Ministers' offices, as if they were senior civil servants, arriving at the gates of Leinster House and demanding that they be let in without informing the usher on duty for which Minister they are looking? Is it because of the faceless men who have become rich that Mr. Fitzsimons ceases to support the Fianna Fáil Party? I do not have to mention their names. There are too many of them for me to list. Periodically they hit the headlines. Some even hit the international headlines. Some have become involved in elections which are none of their business. Some who have become involved in elections have ended up by selling hotels or buying hotels from semi-State bodies. These faceless men carry in their pockets the telephone numbers of the Ministers' offices. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs will bear me out when I say that if one asks for a number which is ex-directory the telephonist will refuse to give it.

Has this any connection at all with the Financial Resolution?

It has everything to do with the Financial Resolution.

Would the Deputy relate it then to the Financial Resolution?

Muck — that is all it is.

I am talking about the mohaired executives, the "Tacateers" who have become rich, the financiers who finance the Fianna Fáil Party machine in elections. The Irish people have at last seen through the folly of it all and Taca has now become the biggest liability the Fianna Fáil Party have. It has boomeranged. Lest someone might not understand clearly, I am just making the point that if I as a Deputy wish to phone the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, and I have not got his proper telephone number——

The Deputy will get it in the book.

I presume he is able to read.

I will get Deputy Lalor in the book, but if he gets promotion, and I hope he does if they are going to stay there — no better man——

Thank you.

——he will have his name removed from the book.

Not at all.

If I ask a telephonist in Donegal——

The Deputy should not repeat himself.

——to supply me with a telephone number——

The Deputy cannot ignore the Chair in that fashion. If he continues along those lines I will tell him to resume his seat.

That is his problem. He has no hope of resuming his seat.

We are discussing a Financial Resolution and the Deputy is not even mentioning the Financial Resolution in passing.

That man is stirring up all the trouble.

The point I am making is that there is no need for this extra taxation. Some Government speakers asked what alternative we would have if we were in their position. We do not have to say so from the Opposition benches, but lest there may be some misunderstanding about it I am making the point that our alternative would not be extra taxation or different taxation. We would provide a just, honest, better administration. If I am making the point that we would provide a just, better and cleaner administration, surely I am allowed to point out the injustices of maladministration? Surely I am allowed as a public representative speaking in Parliament to tell the House what I see wrong?

Tell the truth.

Am I not entitled to do this? Am I not entitled to make a protest?

The Deputy seems to be entitled to say anything he wishes.

I will not argue about that.

I should like to point out to Deputy Harte that this is not a general debate. It is confined to the Financial Resolution.

I am not disputing that. I am basing my argument on the fact that we hold there should be no extra taxation, that we would provide a cleaner, better and more efficient administration and surely I am allowed to go on to point out why the Government are falling short and why they cannot see the wood for the trees.

One of the reasons is that these people who are travelling the corridors of Leinster House have more influence in Cabinet circles than the backbench Members of the Fianna Fáil Party who have the courage to stand before the electorate and say they stand by the policies of Fianna Fáil. That is what I am trying to say and if you feel, a Cheann Comhairle, that it is any embarrassment I will move away from it.

It is no embarrassment. It is irrelevant.

That is a direct reflection on the Chair.

If the Deputy sees that in the mirror I am not faulting him for it.

That is a sensible statement, is it not?

It is the first sensible statement he made tonight if it is sensible.

If he does not stop walking around he will walk out of the House.

When Deputy Dillon and Deputy L'Estrange expose certain corruption which appears to be taking place, the only retaliation that comes from Fianna Fáil Deputies is: "Spit it out. State the evidence."

Exactly.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary seriously believe that cloak and dagger methods used by Ministers and "Tacateers" can be sifted out easily?

Either put up or shut up.

Does he think it is a function of a Deputy here to take on the cloak of McCarthyism? Does he think that when a Deputy hints at something he should "go the whole hog" and spell it out?

Deputies have a duty to tell the truth.

Does he think a Deputy should accept an invitation to repeat what has been said outside the privilege of the House? Is it not a privilege that has been given to us to say these things here, and if the Government are sincere they have a weapon at their disposal? They can call on the forces of the Attorney General to have these things investigated thoroughly and fully. If any other accusations are made the Government should meet the challenge issued by Deputy Cosgrave and produce the files for examination in this House by any Deputies who wish to inquire into the substance of these allegations. I do not think it is the function of any Deputy to be a Joe McCarthy. I do not think it is the function of any Deputy to take on the duties of a detective sergeant. I do not think a Deputy is called upon to give every detail of information he has——

Just mud slinging.

——to prove beyond doubt that corruption is taking place in high places.

Just say it. That is enough.

We know that corruption is taking place in high places. I do not want to repeat it. I am tired listening to it.

Why has the former Minister for Local Government not come in and denied it?

There is nothing in it.

The present Minister for Local Government said he would do it. Let him deny it. Let the Taoiseach produce the files of that case for full examination.

Produce the evidence.

If the Fianna Fáil Party have to be absolved from sin we will do so, but until such time as we are satisfied, so far as I am concerned corruption is taking place in high places. If the Taoiseach had the same courage as his counterpart in Belfast he would be asking for a few resignations. One adverse effect of this increased taxation is that it is crippling motor transport in the Border counties. In the next few months, as Deputy Cunningham knows, most of these counties, particularly Donegal, will be faced with something short of a crisis in motor transport.

Is this the cigarette tax or the beer tax?

If Deputy Cunningham wakens up and listens for a second I will answer that. The petrol tax has been increased, motor tax and insurance have been increased, and the cost of the selective wholesale tax on commercial vehicles is criminal and penal, with the result that one of the scarcest things in an agricultural county like Donegal is a cattle lorry. You will not get a cattle lorry in the county of Donegal at the moment. All the cattle are carried by Northern Ireland carriers. The Donegal man cannot compete. Deputy Cunningham knows what I am referring to.

This is not so. Northern Ireland carriers are not allowed to carry cattle in Donegal.

I am talking about Northern Ireland carriers—the individuals and not the company known as Northern Ireland Carriers.

I am talking about carriers who are not allowed to come and pick up cattle inside the State.

This is one of the most stupid remarks I have heard. When would a lot of cattle be collected by Northern Ireland carriers and be left in Donegal? They come for the export and they take them across the Border.

Do you not want exports?

We do, but we do not want anybody on the other side of the Border to have the advantage of overtrading this side of the Border.

You gave us the Border. We do not want a Border.

You will not allow the lorries to come in.

They are welcome to come, but we protest against a situation whereby an individual purchasing a vehicle, taxing and insuring it, is then unable to compete with the Northern Ireland lorry-man.

Why can they not compete?

I will write it out for you and send it to you. The Parliamentary Secretary said we were responsible for the Border.

The question of the Border does not arise.

The Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries spoke on it last week. That is quite in order and makes politics between the Minister and the Taoiseach. They used Partition as a pawn.

Partition does not arise.

I have this to say about Partition. Until such time as the politicians on this side of the Border are prepared to do something about Partition, they should be told politely to shut up. Partition does not have to be mentioned. Let the Catholics and Protestants living along the Border settle their own differences.

The Deputy must not make a speech on Partition.

The Parliamentary Secretary has as little knowledge of the northern problem as the Government have of the Irish problem. The Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries has said that the heifer subsidy scheme is a failure and that he proposes to introduce a new system. A Cheann Comhairle, the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries when he was Minister for Local Government spoke in Milford during the 1965 General Election campaign. He spoke in glowing terms of the scheme about to be introduced giving every farmer £15 subsidy in the calf-heifer subsidy scheme. From the same public platform he criticised very severely a Deputy of this House for having the audacity to vote against such a scheme which was going to benefit the small farmer of Donegal. All this was reported in the Derry People, of that week.

Will the Deputy quote?

I am not quoting but I will send Deputy Geoghegan a copy of the Derry People of that week. The Minister was criticising me and in reply to that criticism I had this to say at the final Fine Gael rally in Letterkenny during that campaign——

Would you quote from that as well?

A Cheann Comhairle, I must seek your protection.

You need it badly.

Deputy Cunningham is here very seldom. No matter what he says about being at the bottom of the poll, I would remind him there is another election coming.

I have been here over 36 years.

The beet growers gave you your answer. I will be charitable if you are silent. A Cheann Comhairle, in reply to Deputy Blaney's criticism and that Milford speech——

I presume the Deputy is referring to the Minister for Agriculture?

Yes. Deputy Blaney, Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries.

That is better.

I said I did not vote against the calf-heifer subsidy scheme because there was no such vote. If there was a vote, I would have voted against it.

You voted against the monetary provision for it.

There is a man who is confused; which explains why the majority in North East Donegal was only 700. I would still vote against such a scheme and, when the Government are finished their pipe-dreams of the cattle subsidy, they will eventually come to the straightforward calf subsidy. It is simple, but simplicity is the essence of genius, something Fianna Fáil know very little about. It is a straightforward calf subsidy, but that would be too British. This is what the British do, and then it might not, therefore, appear to be original. The heifer subsidy scheme was a failure. The present scheme which the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries is now contemplating will be a failure.

Not at all.

The only hope I have is that I will live to see a change of Government and indeed for the Fine Gael Government to produce a real agricultural policy——

Wishful thinking.

Some of the Government speakers on this debate are inclined to compare present-day Ireland with what happened ten years ago. It is a strange thing to relate that one evening about a fortnight ago I had occasion to be in conversation with a school teacher who is a supporter of the Fianna Fáil Party. He told me he was sick listening to Fianna Fáil Ministers and Deputies at Cumann meetings and reading of them in the national papers and listening to them on television referring to what happened in 1957.

Would you name him?

The year 1957 has as little to do with 1968 as I had with the defeat of Deputy Corry in the beet growers' elections earlier this year.

Would you know beet if you saw it?

He might think it was mangolds.

Lest some people might forget, here are some of the achievements of the inter-Party Government: Land Projects — something Fianna Fáil boast about now. This is something Deputy Cunningham was speaking on. In connection with anything relating to the Land Project he would be telling the people what an ideal scheme it was, how small farmers could take full advantage of this project.

Since we improved it by increasing the grants.

Here is what Deputy Cunningham would be saying. There is very little land among the rocks of Connemara and the small farmers around Deputy Geoghegan's constituency would also benefit by the Land Project.

There is better land there than in north-east Donegal where Deputy Harte comes from.

It just goes to show what the Deputy knows of good land.

Come to the Budget, like a good Deputy. Be honest about it. If you have nothing to say, sit down.

The Land Project was objected to by Deputy Smith on 8th June, 1949. He thought you would have three times the benefits by putting the money to other purposes. For example, he thought it better, and Fianna Fáil went ahead to be part of it, to give three times that amount of money to people like Potez who could build a factory in Galway and make heaters and Fianna Fáil began to raffle them in order to get rid of them. I do not believe they ever sold one. Is Deputy Geoghegan silent now? What happened in Galway?

One thing is certain, it would take more than Deputy Harte to silence Connemara and they showed you that in the referendum and will continue to tell you that. Are you silent now?

So much for the Land Project. I think I have made the point that the Land Project was commenced by the inter-Party Government and has served this country well.

And improved by Fianna Fáil.

Perhaps, improved by Fianna Fáil. Deputy Cunningham now admits that it was the inter-Party Government which organised the Land Project, improved by Fianna Fáil with the people's money, but not improved to the extent that it should have been improved.

What about the Local Authorities (Works) Act?

The situation is that the Land Project could be much more improved but for the fact that the Office of Public Works is not spending enough money on drainage and farmers cannot apply to the Land Project Office for grants. Another thing that the inter-Party Government of 1954-57 did was that they entered into a Trade Agreement in 1948.

You do not even know your own stuff. It was the 1948-51 Government that introduced it.

It was organised and initiated by the inter-Party Government.

The drowning in eggs effort.

The shoes are pinching.

What does Deputy Cunningham say about drowning in eggs?

Was that the butter?

What is wrong with butter? Can you tell the difference?

Yes. That is something that was rotten in the State of Denmark.

Can Deputy Briscoe tell the difference? I know a television company who will give him £5 for telling the difference.

Would Deputies allow Deputy Harte to continue?

The 1948 Trade Agreement benefited the agricultural community for the first time since 1932. After 16 years of Fianna Fáil administration, it gave new life to agriculture. As Deputy Cunningham says, we flooded the British market with eggs. Now the farmer's wife has no trade for eggs. Is it not a fact that a Deputy who asks his wife for a boiled egg in the morning will probably get a stale one? He cannot guarantee that there will be fresh eggs in the local shop.

If he can afford it.

A Deputy's wife should be able to afford it but some of his neighbours may not be able to afford it. This is what Deputy Cunningham sees wrong: the Trade Agreement was wrong because the Irish farmer flooded the British market with eggs. Now the Irish farmer cannot get a market for eggs. This was described by Deputy MacEntee as a very bad Agreement and Deputy Lemass described it as a very poor Agreement. Now we come to the Local Authorities (Works) Act. The 1949 Local Authorities (Works) Act was introduced by the inter-Party Government.

This has no relevance whatsoever to the Budget.

It has this relevance——

It has no relevance.

It has this relevance——

It arises on the Estimates and not on the Budget debate.

Under the heading of what the inter-Party Government achieved——

It has nothing to do with this Budget. We are discussing this Budget.

The Deputy would be only a quarter of an hour with us if he discussed what the inter-Party Government achieved.

He is replying to that type of criticism.

It would take him five minutes to deal with that.

This debate has been conducted by criticism. Had you been listening — I expect that due to the unwarranted interference from across the way——

Are you challenging the Chair now?

——you did not hear me say that one of the arguments put forward by every Fianna Fáil Deputy was the argument of what happened in 1951 under an inter-Party Government.

It has been ruled out of order on any occasion that it was raised.

With all respect, I did not hear it ruled out of order.

The Deputy was not here all the time.

On a point of order. Surely, on the supplementary Budget there can be at least a review of Government policy as to how this money will be spent and a comparison can be made between the present Government and a past Government, which will bring Deputy Harte quite within the bounds of order?

I am sorry. The Chair does not agree with Deputy Oliver J. Flanagan. It would be very difficult to bring Deputy Harte into order on what he has been saying.

The record shows that the debate ranged over years of inter-Party Government.

I resent the remark. I see no reason why you should pick on me to keep in order. This is a personal attack by you continued every time I rise to speak in this House.

If the Deputy reads the Official Report he will find that the Chair intervened in these circumstances since the debate began.

We are dealing with taxation. The Local Authorities (Works) Act is still available for every local authority in Ireland to use.

It has nothing to do with the Budget.

But the Government will not provide the money.

It has nothing to do with the Budget.

I beg to differ from you.

Yes, the Deputy is entitled to differ from the Chair but he has to obey the Chair.

The Chair will concede that the Local Authorities (Works) Act is still available. It is still available for machinery to be used by any local authority provided the Government vote money for it, but it has been strangled because the Government have not voted money for it. If there is a change of Government all these fancy ideas which Fianna Fáil use for propaganda, shifting the Special Employment Schemes to the Department of Local Government and calling it by a different name, will be cleaned off the slate and we will vote money for local authority works. Surely this comes under the heading of taxation?

Under what heading does it come?

It would be relevant on the Estimate for that particular Department.

One of the notes I have taken is that it was opposed and obstructed by Fianna Fáil from 31st March, 1949, to 1st July, 1949. Is this evidence of obstruction by the then Fianna Fáil Party? Is it being obstructed again? Whatever the position is, whether the Chair agrees that this is in order or not, let me say it was one of the schemes introduced by the inter-Party Government.

It does not arise.

It is a scheme which has served all local authorities well.

It does not arise. In view of the fact that Deputy Harte is paying no attention to the admonitions of the Chair, I must ask him to resume his seat.

In normal circumstances I would resume my seat. I do not wish to come in conflict with you. I believe that like every other Deputy I have the right to say what my Party did in 1957 and what we would do if in Government, and I protest in the strongest possible terms at your intervention to try to silence me.

Will Deputy Harte resume his seat?

I wish to speak about the Prize Bonds which we introduced——

Deputies

Chair, Chair.

I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

On a point of order——

There is no point of order.

How does the Chair know——

Deputy Harte has not paid any attention to the admonitions of the Chair since he commenced.

How does the Chair know what I intended raising?

There can be no point of order at this stage. I have made a ruling that Deputy Harte resume his seat and, therefore, there can be no further discussion, no point of order.

Will the Chair agree that Deputy Harte is as much in order as the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries was when he spoke last week?

The Chair does not see it in that way. If Deputy Harte refuses to resume his seat I will ask him to leave the House.

I refuse to leave the House. In ordinary circumstances I would obey your ruling but I refuse to leave the House. I believe that the Prize Bonds, described as a raffle by the Minister for Social Welfare——

I have asked the Deputy to leave the House.

——and believed by the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries——

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