Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Nov 1968

Vol. 237 No. 8

Private Members' Business. - Adjournment Debate: Poaching by Foreign Trawlers.

Mr. P. Hogan

(South Tipperary): I raised this question last week and unhappily at the time I was seated over there and the Minister could not hear many of my supplementary questions. Therefore, I have been constrained to bring him back to put the matter before him. This is a perennial problem and since I came into the House the question has been asked on many occasions what we were doing to protect our fishermen along the coast. The other day I asked the Minister several questions. I asked him:

If he is aware of the continual poaching off the Waterford coast by Dutch fishing vessels; and, if so, what steps he intends to take to protect Irish fishing interests there.

I further asked him:

If he is aware that at 3 p.m. on 22nd October there were 36 Dutch trawlers within four or five miles of Ballyvila Head, County Waterford; that several of them were within one mile of the shore, and that they were fishing; and what action he intends to take to prevent further occurrences of the kind.

The Minister replied as follows:

One complaint of illegal fishing by foreign vessels off the Waterford coast was received by my Department. This was on 23rd October, 1968, and was to the effect that 39 foreign trawlers were fishing off the coast near Dungarvan, some illegally.

The corvette L.E. "Macha" reached the area on the morning of the 24th October, 1968, and found the foreign trawlers outside the fishery limit.

The area in question along with other fishing areas around our coast will continue to be patrolled by the Naval Service within the limit of its resources. In arranging patrols cognisance is taken of the increased activities of foreign trawlers off the Waterford coast during the herring fishing season.

My information is that since last July Dutch trawlers have been operating off the west coast, some 40 to 70 at a time and fishing, especially at night, well within the six mile limit. I understand that there have been similar instances off Dunmore East. It was suggested to me that these foreign vessels seem to be that able to get information about the movements of our corvettes and it was suggested that they were getting the information from spotters on the shore. The Minister denied that such information was obtained by any method other than by warning messages passed from one trawler to another. I should like to know if any special investigations have been conducted to justify him in expressing this opinion and specifically whether any garda inquiries or investigations have been made. I also asked the Minister if he would consider the provision of a number of small fast motor torpedo boats or coastguard cutters to deal with this problem rather than the single frigate which is contemplated. The Minister replied that:

Patrolling of our coastal waters will continue to be carried out by the Naval Service within the limits of their resources.

The question of the replacement of the corvettes at present used for fishery patrols is under consideration and the suitability of different types of vessels for this duty and also for naval purposes is being examined. The purchase of a frigate is not and never has been contemplated.

I do not know what advice, if any, the Minister has taken on this matter but the opinion of the people concerned, the fishermen and so on, is that the only way to combat this problem is by having a number of small fast boats. I am not an expert on these matters nor, I suppose, is the Minister but he is in a position to get advice and I should like to know what advice he has taken to date and what decision, if any, he has come to.

This is a very vexed problem because it is a matter which is dealt with by so many Departments and where you have too many cooks the broth may not be so good. I know that the Minister is not responsible for other Departments but the same day I put down a question to the Minister for External Affairs asking him whether the coastal limit for Dutch trawlers is six or 12 miles and the Minister replied:

Netherlands fishing vessels are prohibited from fishing within our 12-mile exclusive fishery limits except in the six- to 12-mile belt in the area between the Old Head of Kinsale and Carnsore Point. In this area they are entitled to fish between the six-and 12-mile limits for mackerel and herring only.

You will appreciate, Sir, that this is a very important herring centre and this kind of poaching is supposed to have obliterated herring centres in other places. I should like the Minister to tell me, if he is in a position to do so, how it is determined that they only fish for herring and mackerel and what steps are taken by his Department to verify this or have his Department been asked to do this. I should also like to know is this special concession limited to the Netherlands.

An Ceann Comhairle

That seems to be a separate question from that before the House.

Mr. P. Hogan

(South Tipperary): I have intimated that I appreciate the Minister's difficulty in this matter. As I said, this matter has been raised on several occasions here and as far as I can remember it has never been satisfactorily dealt with. It would seem that these Dutch trawlers can come and go almost uninhibited. They are very big vessels which are equipped with every modern scientific device and they can find out the movements of our not too speedy corvettes. They also use scientific methods to determine where there are shoals and they use nets with a very small mesh which can practically clean out the entire ocean life in a very short time. They come in in large numbers. This matter of fisheries is under the care of the Department of Agriculture as far as policy and so on is concerned. The Minister for Defence has the task of protecting our fisheries and the Minister for Finance is involved through the Office of Public Works which looks after harbours, docks and wharves. The Minister for Justice and the Garda are also concerned in regard to detection and prosecution. In that set-up it looks as if it is a question of no-man's-land. We spent a lot of money on this. In 1967-68 £53,000 was spent on sea fishery development. We spend £575,000 on An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. We paid a very large sum for two helicopters. Apart from rescue operations, they do a little bit of work taking patients to hospitals. I understand the Minister says they are not particularly useful in patrol work. I do not know what we spend on harbours, piers, slips and so on, but there is a considerable amount of money involved. And then we fall down on the most important aspect of all.

There was a question addressed to the Minister recently, which drew some sarcastic letters in the Press afterwards. I quote from——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry the Deputy is getting away from the two questions which have been allowed. We cannot go into the subject matter of other questions because they have not been considered.

Mr. P. Hogan

(South Tipperary): I am dealing with the only defence we have available to us and the Minister, apparently, is not in a position either to equip or man the corvettes properly. We have a very long coastline to protect, I know, but as a special concession the Netherlands was given a six-mile limit. Surely our territorial limit could be similarly extended? The trawlers fished on 22nd October and the corvette did not arrive until 24th October. I do not say this information is absolutely accurate, but I understand that on the 22nd the Garda station at Ring was rung up and naval headquarters at Haulbowline. It could be that that was done on 23rd October, but in that interval all the fish in the sea could be caught, processed, sold or eaten. Since 22nd October our own fishermen have caught nothing. Apart from damage to the economy there is the humanitarian aspect; the livelihood of the unfortunate fishermen is at the mercy of these foreign fishermen who operate in huge trawlers and clean out everything. I appeal to the Minister to consult with his colleague, the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, to see if together they can find some solution.

This matter has been raised here again and again. It is a very important matter. I doubt if the whole position has been adequately examined. Surely the Minister can find out what other countries are doing to protect their fisheries? We cannot be alone in this problem, though it may be more acute here than it is elsewhere. It is extraordinary that such an important herring fishing area as that south of Waterford should be left so defenceless. My information is that the corvettes are old and really incapable of affording proper protection. They are regarded as old tubs. Small, fast boats might be the answer to the problem. Foreign trawlers can fish with impunity now because they know the "old tub" will not reach the area inside 24 hours. Has the Minister made inquiry to find what type of craft is used to protect fisheries in other countries? Fishery protection would appear to be dealt with more efficiently elsewhere.

Mr. Clinton

It will, I think, be clear to the Minister that Deputy Hogan asked him back here tonight on the Adjournment very reluctantly. Most of us appreciate the Minister's position in all this. This problem has existed for years and I am sure the Minister himself is not at all satisfied with the replies he gave here as to the unsatisfactory protection provided. As Deputy Hogan says, the problem arises because of divided control. The cost of new vessels to do proper protection work might be so great—I should like the Minister to be frank about this— that the game would not really be worth the candle, so to speak. Since I came in here in 1961 the same replies as the Minister gave today have been given to similar questions. I remember Deputy Thady Lynch was forever raising the matter here.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Hilliard)

I am very glad that Deputy Hogan, in raising this matter on the Adjournment, treated it with the seriousness it deserves and that the genuinely looked for information in connection with our fishery protection service. An occasion such as this could have been availed of to poke fun at the service but I am very pleased that both Deputies approached it in an entirely different way, and were quite serious in their approach to the problem confronting the State in relation to this matter.

I wish to say at the outset that the provision of new vessels, or the provision of a more elaborate service, is conditioned by the availability of money and personnel. The establishment of an adequate fishery protection service that would also satisfy the requirements of a naval service would cost a good deal of money. We cannot be certain that by voluntary enlistment we would be able to attract sufficient personnel to man even new vessels.

In relation to the question raised by Deputy Hogan, I wish to put him right about the time and the date on which the marine duty officer at Haulbowline was first notified of the presence of trawlers off the Waterford coast. He was notified by telephone at 1 p.m. on 23rd October, 1968 and, on receipt of that message, LE. "Macha" was immediately signalled to proceed to the area. That vessel was on protection duty at Blacksod Bay at the time and arrived the next morning off the coast of Waterford. The trawlers were still there but they were outside the fishery limit.

I wish to say that when I became Minister for Defence I inspected the vessels. I was advised by competent persons that these corvettes were certainly seaworthy, and that they could be refitted for fishery protection purposes. They have a certified life. They were examined afloat in 1966 by the survey staff of the Department of Transport and Power. We have to rely on their findings. Like Deputy Hogan, I am not professionally competent to give an opinion on these matters. I decided that as soon as I possibly could I would bring the matter to the notice of the Government, and that I would bring proposals to the Government in relation to the replacement of the corvettes.

I had the matter of the purchase of second-hand ships abroad examined and I found that we could not get secondhand ships abroad which were acceptable for our purpose. I also had the matter examined from the point of view of the replacement of the corvettes by new ships. The whole question was examined by an inter-Departmental committee representative of the Departments concerned, including the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. The matter is under active consideration. In the early days the service was a marine and coast watching service with fishery protection duties. A decision was taken in 1946 to set up a naval service and three corvettes were purchased. The question of the speed at which these vessels travel has been raised but I should mention that their speed is not a problem in dealing with foreign fishing trawlers and failure to arrest has never been for want of speed.

The question of the use of helicopters for fishery protection has been raised. In reply to supplementary questions I may have come down too hard on this matter. Helicopters can be used on protection duty in conjunction with a corvette, but on their own they are not a completely effective machine for dealing with foreign trawlers. A helicopter cannot arrest a vessels. It cannot establish with the required degree of accuracy the exact location of the foreign vessel and moreover a boarding party must go on board the foreign vessels when it is being escorted into port. There is a limited use for helicopters in fishery protection.

There is also the fact that we have got only three helicopters and they have to be used for the purpose for which they were primarily acquired—air and sea rescue and the provision of an ambulance service. A helicopter must be available when there is an urgent demand for its services.

Another drawback in the use of the helicopter is its range. If helicopters were to be used extensively for fishing protection it would be necessary to have local stations from which they could be operated and refuelled. Nevertheless, the helicopter has a limited use in fishery protection and, in fact, on at least one occasion a helicopter was used off the Waterford coast.

Deputy Hogan suggested that we could use smaller vessels and that coastguard cutters could be used. I am advised by the military authorities— and that expression includes the naval service—and others I have consulted, that anything smaller than a coastal minesweeper would not be effective. Smaller ships cannot put to sea in rough weather. They are not capable of staying at sea long enough in rough weather to be effective. A coastal minesweeper is. There may be some confusion as to what a coastguard cutter is but I would point out that coastguard cutters can be very varying sizes and some of them can cost over £3 million.

The advice tendered to me by the military authorities is that anything smaller than a coastal minesweeper is not of much use. Smaller vessels can be used when they are backed by larger vessels of the corvette class. I am advised that very small vessels would not be effective in our circumstances as they could not stay at sea in any kind of rough weather.

As regards the suggestion that spotters on land pass on information to foreign trawlers, I am not aware that this is so. I am advised by the Naval Service that information is probably passed from trawler to trawler. I do not know what information Deputy Hogan has. I do not like to put the onus on him of producing information that this practice obtains but I should be very glad to get any such information which may be available. I am certain that if the Garda Síochána knew that such a practice obtained they would have notified us and taken action against persons they suspected. It is difficult to be certain in matters or this kind, but if we had any reason to believe that such a practice did obtain we would have the matter investigated.

The three corvettes we have were built in the period 1940 to 1942. Deputy Hogan asked a question about their age. From the information I have given to him already he knows that two of them had a partial survey and refit in 1967 and the third is at present being refitted. They were also refitted in 1957 and 1958. At the moment we cannot put more than two of them to sea at the one time because we have not sufficient personnel.

Mr. Clinton

Can the Minister say how many staff it takes to man one of them?

Mr. Hilliard

There would be around 70 required. I do not know if I am leaving out anything that was referred to in the questions put to me by Deputy Hogan and Deputy Clinton. If I were in a position to give more information I would gladly do so, but I am not in a position to say what decisions will be taken. The matter is under active consideration and I would hope that we will be in a position to start on a programme of the replacement of the three corvettes. I do not know to what extent we can go. There was no question of purchasing frigates. Deputy Hogan, Deputy Clinton and the House can gather what I have in mind from what I have already said. I want to be as frank as possible in the circumstances in which I find myself at the moment. I want to say again that I am glad Deputy Hogan raised this matter in the manner in which he has raised it. I am also glad to come here on the adjournment and give him the information I have given him now.

The Dáil adjourned at 11.6 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 28th November, 1968.