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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Dec 1968

Vol. 237 No. 11

Finance (No. 2) Bill, 1968: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

In his short contribution, Deputy Sir Anthony Esmonde commented on the introductory statement that I made in introducing the Second Reading debate on this Finance Bill. I should like to remind the Deputy in case he implied in any way that I tried deliberately to cut short my introductory statement that it is the practice in successive debates for the introductory statement on Finance Bills to be very brief.

Having dealt with most of the points raised during the course of the debate on the Resolutions, a lengthy contribution to the debate in Committee would require me to repeat much of what I said last week. Deputy Esmonde also charged that neither I nor any other Minister who spoke during the course of the debate referred to the reasons why this supplementary Budget was introduced. Perhaps that is a good starting point to reply to the subject matter of the debate.

I went to great pains on a number of occasions to indicate to the House and to the country the reasons why the Government believed that this supplementary Budget was necessary. The reasons were mainly because of the extent to which expenditure was outrunning income during the current years and, because we, like many other countries throughout the world, had to take certain action to offset inflationary tendencies.

With regard to the suggestion that the spring Budget deliberately did not give any indication of the amount of expenditure that would have to be met during the course of the year I think it is quite clear that the Minister for Finance on that occasion envisaged this possibility. Deputy T. O'Higgins called attention to the FUE statement that we ought to have foreseen to within a small percentage the amount of money that increases in salaries and wages of the public service would cost. It is, nevertheless, true to say that the 11th round had only barely begun to start at that time.

As I said before, if we had made precise provision for the increased cost to the Exchequer of the public service wage increases that, I feel, would have given a fairly strong indication and guide to the level that the public service ought to seek. However, as is generally known, the public service do not usually come into the van of wage increases but rather tend to await the outcome of the free negotiation process that we have. Therefore, it was all the more important that the Government should not give an indication in advance to the people who would be negotiating for wage increases in the private sector. In any event, the increases that were given to the public service were consistent with the increases that were given in the private sector. The cost of the increase amounted to roughly £9 million.

The Minister for Finance clearly said in his Budget speech that if a liability of that order came up for payment during the course of the year it would be necessary to introduce the appropriate taxation.

The suggestion that we deliberately kept back these taxes until the referendum was over is equally untrue and I should like to remind the House that on a number of occasions before the referendum took place, I gave an indication that extra taxation would have to be raised in the course of the current financial year. Therefore, there was no question whatever of trying to conceal from the electorate in advance of the referendum that extra taxation was likely.

There is also the increase in agricultural subsidies and I think it is worth mentioning again that the increase is caused by the unusually high yields and quality of the wheat crop.

The Ceann Comhairle will rule the Taoiseach out of order if he continues on that.

I wish to relate it specifically to the £1¼ million that it will cost the Exchequer to provide for these unusually high yields and qualities as well as the record yield in milk. That is something in excess of £4 million. Thus some £15 million had to be provided immediately if we were not to run into a serious deficit and that deficit would have been of the order of £18¾ million or £19 million; buoyancy accounted for a little more than £7 million of that leaving what would have been a deficit of the order of £11 million.

The new taxes will raise £15 million in a full year, but only £4 million in the remaining months of the current financial year. We face a net deficit of £7 million in the current budget this year. This amount will have to be provided for in the usual way, unfortunately, by borrowing—by imposing further on the commercial banks.

There is no question of trying to preempt the ordinary Budget next year. In the course of the Budget debate I mentioned increases in spending of the order of some £27 million that would be required in the coming financial year. I related that £27 million to certain specific items but that list was not exhaustive. It was suggested at some stage—not in the course of this debate, but in the course of the debate on the Resolutions—that the taxation now being imposed would offset any increases that were likely to come up in the coming year. Fifteen million pounds in taxation will not go even half way to meet the kind of increased costs that are likely to face the Exchequer in the financial year, 1969-70.

Deputy T.F. O'Higgins mentioned the cynicism that is abroad about national planning. It is true that the plans we made and the developments we envisaged—the Second Programme for Economic Expansion—were based on assumptions that were incorrect but any forward planning of that nature must be based on reasonable assumptions and, while economists can make forecasts—this is a general rule not only in this country but throughout the world—they can be very far off the mark.

Hear, hear.

Most economists that we know now are more renowned for their hindsight than for their foresight.

Hear, hear. They are like the psychologists.

Nevertheless, we have learned from the shortcomings of the Second Programme but let me remind Deputies that the First Programme was highly successful. After many years of the economy tottering along slowly and making no progress or progress at the maximum of one per cent a year, we envisaged in the First Programme an increase of an average of two per cent a year. In the event, we achieved an annual increase of the gross national product of some four per cent. It was reasonable to assume, on the basis of that experience that we could maintain that kind of increase during the currency of the Second Programme. Unfortunately, we did run into the kind of difficulties in 1965-66 that are now threatening us at this stage. We took action against them that was timely— but not timely enough to ensure the maintenance of a four per cent growth rate. In the event, we had a two per cent growth rate in 1965 and one and a half per cent in 1966 but we came back again, mainly because of the temporary measures we took, to reach a growth rate of four per cent in the last two years, and we envisage maintaining that growth rate, if not a slight increase on it, during the course of the Third Programme for Economic Expansion.

Unfortunately, the world-wide inflationary trend has now set in against us but on this occasion we have taken timely action. We can envisage a maintenance of the growth rate that we now enjoy, something like four per cent right through 1969-70 and subsequent years. I agree entirely that it is difficult for businessmen to plan effectively their forward programmes, if they are not sure from one year to another that there may not be a second increase in taxation. I suggest that a second or supplementary Budget, a second increase in taxation, is far more beneficial to the country generally than to ignore the kind of trend that would lead us into an inflationary position from which we could not recover for some time. We would have only a few years of great effort and great hardship and a running down of employment generally.

It is not ideal that we should have supplementary budgets. But it is far better that we should take action of this nature rather than that the economy run down, rather than refuse to face up to the realities of the situation, rather than refuse to face whatever political unpopularity measures of this nature usually involve. Therefore, I suggest that the Government were doing what was right in the circumstances. Speaking of inflation, I do not accept at all the facile interpretation of Government policy which Deputy Dillon mentioned a few minutes ago— that we have accepted an annual inflationary rate of 4 per cent. I do not accept that at all. We recognise that inflation exists. Deputy Dillon expounded on the effects inflation has had in certain countries, and warned that, ultimately, serious effects could flow from continued inflation in this country. I agree entirely that they could, but there is not much point in Deputy Dillon berating the Government or anybody else unless he can come up with a satisfactory solution. Our alternative is to encourage as far as possible by any means we can, by inducements, by encouraging verbally and by practical measures, the increase in productivity of our various economic activities—mainly farming and industry —and trying to ensure, as far as possible, that increases in productivity will at least match the increases in costs of production, these increases being mainly taken in the industrial sector, by increased wages which the workers have won for themselves by free negotiation. Free negotiation will continue to be the means whereby our industrial workers can win for themselves increased benefits by way of increased wages or conditions, or otherwise. There is no other way the system can work properly and certainly, as far as we are concerned, we do not see any other way for doing it.

Deputy Dillon said that Germany was an example of a country that can make progress and ensure that inflationary trends do not follow in the wake of progress. The West Germans had a strong incentive. They had emerged from the Second World War with a divided country. They got assistance, admittedly, through the Marshall Aid Plan particularly and in other respects as well, but they used it wisely and in West Germany the circumstances made for an updated industrial system. We have, unfortunately, a rather outworn industrial system, one we inherited from Great Britain. We are left with some of the worst aspects of that system and it is up to our employers generally to improve our industrial relations system, which is possible, to ensure that there is better understanding between both sides, to ensure on the employers' side that they recognise the need for improved working conditions and on the workers' side that they recognise the difficulties of employers as well, difficulties in particular in relation to the maintenance of the competitiveness of the particular undertaking. That is the key point. If wages continue to outstrip productivity, this and the competitiveness of the particular industry in which the workers are employed will become less and less and then the output will become less and less because the industry will tend to become insolvent. With regard to our export markets, unless we produce competitively against other countries then our exports are bound to go down, our employment will not be maintained; on the contrary it will be reduced.

Deputy Sir Anthony Esmonde said that we have not been doing enough to ensure that we gain access to wider markets. I can claim that we are trying to do all that we can to encourage existing Irish manufacturers to seek export markets for their products in countries other than the United Kingdom. Córas Tráchtála have in recent years stepped up their activities through their representatives in different countries. Everywhere Ministers have gone, including myself, we have tried to ensure that increased outlets would be gained for our industrial products, and indeed agricultural products, in markets other than the traditional ones, the main one being Great Britain. We have been increasing our exports not only to Britain but to the Common Market countries and to the United States as well. These two are our second largest markets after the United Kingdom.

Yesterday I announced the initiation of negotiations for a trade agreement with Japan. We believe there are prospects in Japan for our exports once we get to know each other and know what the Japanese require and the standards of delivery they require as well. This will be worked out in the coming weeks and months to see to what extent we can come to an arrangement with them. At the same time, we are exploring the possibility of opening up markets in East European countries. In this connection the House will be aware of the visit of the Minister for External Affairs to Moscow to sign the NonProliferation Agreement some months ago, when he exchanged lists of commodities with the appropriate Ministers there of the products we can export to them.

It is unfair to suggest that because of the existence of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement we are concentrating only on the British market. It is true that 70 per cent of our exports go to that market. It is true also, no matter how we may see otherwise, that the great bulk of our exports will go to that market in the years to come. It is facilitated by the traditional pattern, by the existence of commercial dealings and other factors which are common to both countries and which will, therefore, facilitate a greater outflow of goods to that country than to any other.

In this connection, too, Deputy O'Higgins mentioned the traditional co-operation and constructiveness of Fine Gael in trying to encourage the expansion of our economy. I think the last effort in this area was not very conducive to objectivity or constructiveness or the encouragement of the best interests of our economy in that, when we very quickly introduced a system of assistance for our exporters to the British market in order to offset the effects of the deposit scheme, the Fine Gael Party derided these methods and were anything but helpful in ensuring that the action we took would be a success.

I was sorry that Deputy Tully did not get permission to expand because I had taken some notes on what he was about to say and I had some arguments ready——

I am sorry. The Taoiseach will agree that everybody else was allowed to expand——

I shall not discuss the decision of the Chair. Deputy Tully was about to take off into very selective fields and away from the terms of the Bill.

I appreciate that criticism of the Government is not popular in this House.

We get plenty of criticism and we are well able to stand up to it. I do not want to go into any great detail about the subject matter of this debate except to correct an impression that, perhaps, Deputy O'Higgins inadvertently gave when he referred to the increased cost of driving a motor car. I trust he did not wish to suggest that petrol was one of the commodities affected. I presume he was referring to the purchase of motor cars and the effect the increase in wholesale tax will have. There was no suggestion whatever in this supplementary Budget of increasing the tax on petrol: we deliberately refrained from doing so because it would have added to the costs of industrial production and—to an extent—agricultural production.

Deputy Esmonde mentioned that the legislation envisaged in the Budget debate last spring as regards Schedules A and B of the income tax code has not yet been introduced. That is so. During the course of the Budget debate the Minister did say that tax under Schedules A and B would not be chargeable in 1969-70. That will still be the case. Unfortunately, the Minister's illness delayed the preparation of this legislation which is very complicated. Nevertheless, that delay will not affect his undertaking as to the incidence of tax under Schedules A and B.

The overall comment I should like to make is that the situation in this country is such that we cannot isolate ourselves from the economic winds raging throughout Europe and, indeed, throughout the whole world, at present. Almost every country, with the exception of Germany, is in the middle of this unfortunate inflationary process. We took fairly timely action to offset it. We recognise our action may not be completely effective to stop inflation once and for all.

Deputy O'Higgins referred to this Budget as being, in itself, inflationary while many members of his Party denounced it as deflationary.

I referred to it as deflationary.

I thought the Deputy suggested it would add to the inflationary process.

Deputy Dillon in one part of his speech referred to the reporting of wild scenes that are usually engendered by subversive elements in the community, and said he was speaking only for himself. Perhaps, Deputy Dillon was only speaking for himself, too, when he suggested that this supplementary Budget is adding to the inflationary process.

The increase in the cost of living leads ultimately to what Germany discovered. The consequence of inflation ultimately is Hitler.

There are various means of providing against inflation. You can use monetary or fiscal measures. Monetary measures are usually restrictions such as those in the field of hire purchase. Fiscal measures are those taken to raise taxation. Fiscal measures are considered by some to be the most effective means of dealing with inflationary trends. The advice recently given by the Organisation for European Co-operation and Development and, indeed, by the International Monetary Fund is that more use should be made, in circumstances like this, of fiscal measures.

It is fairly up-to-date economic thinking now that fiscal measures are about the most effective means of controlling inflation. If we had not taken the action we took, the situation would have become much worse already. The situation would have arisen where our balance of payments would have gone so much against us that it would be very difficult for us to recover. When that kind of trend is seen to start, naturally its own consequences have effects upon us but they generally have other results——

Hear, hear.

——as Deputy Dillon so well put it during the course of the debate. As soon as people who have money invested in this country— whether they are native or non-native —see these trends developing—see the balance of payments going out of equilibrium, then they begin to draw off their investments and to put their investments where the payments are in better balance. As well as that, the kind of capital on which we depend to a large extent for our economic progress —investment capital from abroad— begins to dry up. We had that situation in 1965 and 1966. Fortunately, I think we have been able to avoid any movement in that direction.

I believe people will see that we have been running our affairs well, wisely and fearlessly, and there will be confidence in the country amongst our own people and the confidence of those from outside who have invested here will be maintained.

Overall, in the end, it is our own people and, to use the term Deputy O'Higgins used, sinn féin, on whom we shall ultimately have to depend. Unless our people recognise that we must earn at least as much as we are spending then we cannot survive. If we spend more than we can earn, the inevitable will follow. We want to be able to maintain the increased standards of living which I feel are due to all our people. It depends on the will and the effort of the Irish people who are at least as good as any other people in the world—I shall not claim they are better—if they work to the extent to which I think they can work. If they recognise the difficulties that will follow from doing less work for more wages, if it can be explained to them that not only will their own jobs become affected but that the job potential of posterity will be affected, then I think it will be realised by them that they should work a little harder. The term "workers" to me embraces everybody who has to earn a living— whether with the hands, the head or through business acumen. Everybody in the country can, I believe—and must—do that little bit extra. We are only a small developing country in the middle of huge economies with great natural resources such as the United States of America and countries of the continent of Europe. We have not such resources. However, those countries also are beset by inflationary trends. They have to take action, from time to time. It is impossible for us to ignore these trends or to immunise ourselves against that kind of action. We must get that message across to our people.

Even though we must rely on investment from abroad, even though we must rely on the markets to which foreigners who set up factories here already have access, and even though we must have these aims as well, and that kind of assistance, in the long run it depends on ourselves and I believe that, if this message is got across to the Irish people, we can withstand these inflationary trends which seem to be so recurrent in these modern times.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 61; Níl, 46.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Boylan, Terence.
  • Brady, Philip.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • de Valera Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fahey, John.
  • Fanning John.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Foley, Desmond.
  • French, Seán.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, Hugh.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, John.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Nolan, Thomas.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Burke, Joan T.
  • Burton, Philip.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Fitzpatrick, Thomas J. (Cavan).
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary).
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lindsay, Patrick J.
  • Lyons, Michael D.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • Mullen, Michael.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.K.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Tully, James.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies Carty and Geoghegan; Níl: Deputies L'Estrange and James Tully.
Question declared carried.

Now, if the House agrees.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

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