I move:
In page 4, section 9, subsection (2), line 40, to delete the word "Upon" and substitute the word "After" and, in line 41, to delete the word "shall" and substitute the word "may".
Decimal Currency (No. 2) Bill, 1969: Report and Final Stages.
There should, I think, be an option open to the Central Bank in this Regard, but I am equally conscious that the annual depreciation in money runs roughly around 3.2 per cent since 1956 and, bearing that in mind, one can appreciate the concern of the Minister to ensure that money values and money barter reforms remain in their true balanced value for the future and, indeed, bearing in mind that the particular measure introduced by the Minister is one that will not come in for a considerable time ahead, I think the approach on his part is, by and large, sensible and reasonable. Nevertheless, in the transition period, during which there can be a certain amount of public anxiety at the withdrawal of the ten shilling note, there should, I think, be a period of gradual transition and, accordingly, I support the amendment of the Bill in the manner suggested by Deputy FitzGerald.
I am still not in a position to accept this amendment because, to me at any rate, if is a question of policy. I believe from all the advise available to me and from the expert information to which I have access that it is not a good thing, even in normal circumstances, to have a note and a coin of the same denomination. I further think that in the circumstances of the changeover to decimal currency we must try to keep the problems with which the public mind will be confronted down to a minimum and, for both these reasons, I think the right thing to do is, early on, at the beginning of next year, to bring in the 50 new pence coin and, as quickly as possible, substitute it for the 10s note and, indeed, so far as we can, to have the 10s note completely replaced by the 50 new pence coin before the changeover begins.
Accepting what the Minister says, nevertheless——
The Deputy has already spoken. This is Report Stage and he may speak only once on Report Stage.
While I am still with the Minister, I am very much afraid that, if he does not accept this amendment, we will have still dirtier 10s notes going around the country than we have had up to the present. God knows they have been dirty enough.
That is part of my idea, to get them out of the way.
The Minister wants to get rid of them once and for all?
They are grubby, unsatisfactory notes.
I do not know how they remain in circulation. If that is one of the Minister's reasons, and I think he is searching for one——
They are always crumpled in your pocket.
For one reason or another, one finds that although shopkeepers have clean notes they tender dirty ones instead of the clean ones. One cannot say to them: "Why do you not give me a clean one?" It is not that easy. If that is really one of the Minister's reasons there is something to be said for it.
I am sorry that the Minister does not accept the amendment. It does not force him to do anything. If when the time comes he or the Central Bank felt that there was a case for continuing their issue for a short period it would make it possible to do so. It is unusual for a Minister to refuse additional power being offered to him by the Opposition. I do not understand why he is refusing it. If he still wanted to pursue his policy he could do so.
This is not a normal situation. This is issuing currency and we have got to lay down clear statutory directives to the Central Bank in regard to what they will do and what they will not do.
I do not feel that it must be laid down. There can be room for manoeuvre.
This is not like issuing a wholesale egg licence.
When it comes to issuing currencies I am willing to allow the Central Bank discretion. I regret that the Minister is not accepting this amendment which could not do any harm. He would have this power although he might not wish to exercise it. These notes may be dirty but they do not make you dirty in the same way as coins do. I have a habit of fiddling with coins in my pocket and when I take my hand out I find it is covered with a green mould which has an unpleasant smell and is difficult to get off. This may be——
It is a question of the Deputy reforming his habits. It would be simpler for the Deputy to do that than for us to change the whole currency.
That is a valid point. Although others may not handle coins to the same extent that I do, there is no evidence that notes have the same effect as the coins.
Has the Deputy noticed that the newspapers these days have a great deal of black stuff on them which comes off?
I can only suggest that the Minister's anxiety to see whether he is reported must lead him to get them very fresh, at about 1 a.m.
No, when I am coming into my office at 7 o'clock in the morning I find it the same. These may also be the earlier editions.
Amendment put and declared lost.
I move:
In page 4, section 10, subsection (1), line 44, before "ten" to insert the words "twenty-five new pence", and at the end of line 45 to add "the ten new pence and five new pence coins".
The subsection would then read:
Coins having a denomination of twenty-five new pence, ten new pence or five new pence may be issued before the 15th day of February, 1971, and shall be deemed, before that date to be coins having a denomination of a florin or a shilling, as the case may be, issued in accordance with the provisions of the Act of 1950.
Of course, the amendment in its present form may well be slightly defective because I have had more or less to think on my feet. However, the intention is clear. The Minister earlier said that he is considering the issue of a 25 new pence coin. The power to do so should be given at this stage, despite what the Minister said about not giving discretion to himself or the Central Bank.
Perhaps, I could short circuit this. I have the power, by order under section 3, to issue a 25 new pence coin.
This would be a cupro-nickel or bronze coin? The Minister does not envisage any other type of coin.
Anything over the bronze coins would be of cupro-nickel, almost certainly.
What will the 50 new pence coin be?
Cupro-nickel.
Is section 10, subsection (1), solely designed to cover the transitional problem if coins are issued in advance of this date and ensure they are given a value in our present currency?
Exactly. These two coins are in a different category because they happen to synchronise with the existing 1s and 2s pieces.
But if the Minister issued a 25 new pence coin before the date would it not be necessary to give it a value of 5s?
There is no 5s coin at the moment.
That is my point.
I would not contemplate bringing it in before D Day. I do not think it would be a very practical proposition.
I should like to raise the point about the difficulty we have at present regarding the interchange of coins with Britain. Can that problem be ironed out when the system is adopted? Surely that would be the ideal time to have the position dealt with. The position in the Six Counties is all right but in Britain there is difficulty when one tenders, say, an Irish two shilling piece. Secondly, would the difficulty which we had with the ten shilling commemorative coin not tend to show that ten shilling coins are not going to be popular?
We have had that all morning.
It is no harm to remind the Minister.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Bill received for final consideration and passed.