Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Nov 1969

Vol. 242 No. 3

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Secondary School Education.

80.

Dr. FitzGerald

asked the Minister for Education whether he is aware that his Department's requirement that children must have attained the age of 12 before being able to participate in State-aided secondary education together with pupil/teacher ratio requirements, provides an incentive to secondary post-primary schools with non-aided primary sections to promote to the secondary school older and less able children; and whether his Department's inspection system is alert to this danger and is taking steps to prevent pupils being placed at a disadvantage in this way.

81.

Dr. FitzGerald

asked the Minister for Education if he will consider withdrawing the requirement that secondary pupils must have attained the age of 12 to be eligible for participation in State-aided secondary post-primary education in view of the hardship and frustration caused to clever children by being held back in this way and the expense caused to their parents arising from it.

Mr. Faulkner

With your permission, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take these two questions together. The Rules for Secondary Schools require that, to be a recognised pupil, a pupil must be not less than 12 years of age on 1st January of the school year and must, as a rule, have completed a full course of primary education.

Thus a pupil, to be recognised, must be eleven years and eight months old, at least, on 1st September of the year of entry to secondary school. This minimum age is based on educational considerations which are twofold. It ensures on the one hand that pupils will not be entering secondary education before they have completed their primary education. It ensures on the other that they will not be completing their secondary education at an age when they would be ineligible for entrance to the university or other institutions or higher education and when they would be under age for the various competitions based on the Leaving Certificate.

Dr. FitzGerald

Would the Minister agree that he has not in any way answered Question 80? He said he was answering Questions 80 and 81 together but he has only answered Question 81. As regards Question 81 the Minister said this ensures that pupils do not enter secondary education before they have completed their primary education. But this ensures nothing of the kind. Many pupils complete their primary education before the age of eleven years six months, as it would be in relation to June of the year in question, and they are prevented from continuing. Is the Minister not aware that the majority of pupils do not go on to higher education and to hold all pupils back in this way because, if they were allowed to go on they might find themselves a little early for university or higher education, is an absurd proposal and one which is damaging to the pupils and an extra cost to their parents. Does the Minister not agree this is something that should be changed?

Mr. Faulkner

I do not agree that it is absurd. The decision to prescribe a minimum age of 12 years on the 1st January was arrived at after consultation with all the primary and post-primary interests concerned.

Dr. FitzGerald

Would the Minister say whether any educational experts were consulted? One is well aware that the interests would have been consulted and of the implication that some of these interests would wish to hold back the children in the primary schools until a certain age is reached, but that is not necessarily in the interests of the children and their parents and this should be our main concern.

Mr. Faulkner

It is wrong of the Deputy to imply—as he has done— that the people with educational interests in primary and post-primary schools would decide something in their own interests rather than in the interests of the children. I am satisfied that these two bodies, when discussing matters of this sort, would regard the interests of the children as being the prime consideration.

Dr. FitzGerald

The Minister has not answered my question as to whether any educational experts—educational psychologists—were consulted on the matter.

Mr. Desmond

Would the Minister not agree that this is a particularly rigid piece of educational bureaucracy? I have brought the Minister's notice to particular instances in my own constituency where pupils have had to go back and repeat the last year at the primary school because of this age limitation. This means that pupils who want to advance further are being discriminated against.

Mr. Faulkner

Supposing a student who is under age when he does his leaving certificate gets sufficient honours to qualify for a scholarship to the university in what way is he being discriminated against?

Mr. Desmond

I am talking about the 12 years of age limitation.

Mr. Faulkner

As far as I am concerned we are talking about the other end of it as well as the entry at 12 years.

Dr. FitzGerald

Could I ask the Minister to answer Question 80 or shall I raise supplementaries without waiting for his reply?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister answered Questions 80 and 81 together.

Dr. FitzGerald

The Minister did not answer Question 80 at all, and I should like to raise a question on it. Is the Minister aware that the combination of the age 12 rule and the pupil/teacher ratio requirement creates a situation in which an incentive exists for schools to promote to secondary schools the less able and to hold back the more able pupils who have reached that stage but who have not reached the age of 12 years. What I want to know is whether the Department's inspection system is alerted to this and whether it has taken steps to prevent pupils beings placed in this disadvantageous way where in the case of the less able children they are being pushed ahead and in the case of the more able children they are being held back. That question was not answered, adverted to or touched on in the Minister's reply.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We seem to be engaging in a discussion rather than dealing with Questions.

Dr. FitzGerald

We are seeking an answer to Question 80.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

All the Chair can do is to accept what the Minister says, that he has answered the two questions. The Chair is not the judge of what the Minister's answers are.

Dr. FitzGerald

The Chair would not need to be much of a judge in this instance.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair deprecates that remark.

Dr. FitzGerald

It was not intended in the way it would appear.

Mr. Desmond

Would the Minister not agree that this regulation is an incentive to general evasion on the part of the educational authorities, to circumvent the discriminations that occur?

Mr. Faulkner

It may happen on rare occasions but, in general, I do not accept that it does.

Dr. FitzGerald

Does the Department's inspection system cater for this problem? Are the schools being inspected to ensure that they are not abusing the situation about these rules? If we take cases to the Department, as I have done, will any action be taken?

Mr. Faulkner

Any cases brought to my attention will be looked into.