Deputy Donegan.
Private Members' Business. - Building of Houses: Motion (Resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion:
That in view of the present housing crisis where thousands of families cannot anticipate being housed for many years, Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to declare a national housing emergency with the objective of directing the necessary men, money and materials to the building of houses in order that the fundamental right to normal family life can be assured for all our citizens.— Deputy Dr. O'Connell.
Where is Deputy Donegan?
Deputies
Out shooting bats again?
The Labour Whip must have been withdrawn from Deputy Donegan. What appeared last week to be the successful substitution of Deputy Cluskey for Deputy R. Burke as a Whip for the Fine Gael Party seems to have been shortlived in its success. His undoubted spectacular success in getting a Fine Gael man to co-operate with them in order to deprive me of the right of dealing with this very important motion has not lasted beyond the one day. However, it was no doubt edifying to see how successful he was in getting Fine Gael Deputies into the House when Fine Gael themselves failed to get a seconder for their own motion on the preceding day.
With regard to this motion, which calls on the Government to take a certain line of action which it is contended will result in eliminating the long and expensive process at present necessary before houses can be constructed, I think it has amply been demonstrated that it was not seriously intended. Despite the fact that we have this list of the full membership of the Labour Party down as sponsoring it, the objective was not—as it appeared to be—to convince the Government that there was available to them this miraculous way of constructing houses. Although it ostensibly called on the Government to take this line of action, every possible stratagem was utilised to prevent the responsible Member of the Government from indicating whether or not he had been convinced by the combined persuasivness of the whole Labour Party of the advisability of taking this course of action. Indeed, I am sure I was not the only person who was looking forward to this demonstration, even if it was a unique demonstration of concerted action from the Labour Party, both from the new Doctors who have come into the House in this Dáil and also from the scattered remnants of the former Labour Party who survived the advent of the new Doctors.
Why not talk about housing?
The demonstration of unity of purpose did not in fact materialise. What I have been asked to accept is apparently that there is available to the Government this way of dealing with the housing situation; that all we have to do in order to solve everybody's housing problem is to take this action of formally declaring a housing emergency.
I listened to everything that was said here in this House: I listened to every Deputy who took part in the proceedings—except of course the Deputy who formally seconded the motion and immediately sat down: he had not anything at all to say. I do not like suggesting that it was not genuinely intended; I do not like suggesting that it was intended more as a political gimmick and as an effort to encourage the irresponsible elements who have been trying to cause disruption and who were so decisively rejected by the people last June rather than as a serious effort to convince me.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
This effort to convince me was not in fact made. I was hoping that somebody would put forward some arguments to show that this remarkable theory, that the long, tedious, laborious and expensive process which has hitherto been involved in the provision of houses can, in fact, be eliminated. I think, in view of what has happened, one must ask oneself the question whether or not this was genuinely intended. Lest there be any Deputies on the Opposition Benches who are really genuinely concerned with this matter and are taking it seriously, I should like to outline some of the present difficulties in actually providing houses as distinct from talking about them.
First of all, you cannot provide houses unless you have sites. A site must be acquired either by the usually fairly lengthy process of acquiring it by agreement—in which case one very often meets people who are quite obdurate and who insist on extracting the last possible penny from the local authority—or possibly by going through the process of compulsory purchase which also, because of the necessity to comply with the terms of the Constitution, is a rather lengthy process. However, without a site, whether or not you declare an emergency, in my opinion you cannot build houses: at least, I have not found a way and unfortunately nobody here tried to show me that this could be done.
When you get the sites, they must be developed and, before that, they must be surveyed. The lay-out must be planned and a contract must be obtained in order to carry out the development. After all that is done, house designs must be prepared and, again, tenders must be obtained, a contract placed and eventually building can commence. That is the only way the Government know of providing houses —and I do not know that any other Government have discovered any other way.
I think that this motion would lead us to believe that there was some other way. I had expected to be told about it since it was calling upon me to adopt this other way of declaring a housing emergency. Apparently this could get over the different frustrating steps that have to be taken at present and this time-consuming procedure. The thing about this—I know the Opposition would like to ignore it—is that on each of these steps, not alone it time consumed but expense is incurred. This business, that unfortunately affects those who are engaged in the provision of houses, can be ignored by irresponsible people such as those who put down this motion. Money is required. This can be brushed aside by people who take this irresponsible approach but unfortunately the Government cannot afford to brush it aside. Like every country in the world —even those on the other side of the Iron Curtain——
Stick to this side of the Iron Curtain.
——we have discovered no other source of finance except the earnings of the community.
You are the lowest in Europe, this side of the Iron Curtain.
Mr. J. Lenehan
Was Deputy O'Leary not exported from Cork?
We have discovered no other source of finance except the earnings of the community and no other way of building than by the employment of labour which has to be paid for.
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order, this afternoon a Deputy was ruled out of order for referring to these people as rabble. Can you tell me why that was, Sir?
(Interruptions.)
I think the Deputy was casting aspersions on the Taoiseach when he talked about people from Cork.
Mr. J. Lenehan
Shut up. Come outside the door.
It has been our experience——
(Interruptions.)
The Minister.
It has been our experience that a continuous and expanding programme of house building can be maintained only by recognising the limiting factors of the national income and the overall physical capacity of the building industry. The peculiar thing is that although the Opposition, and particularly the Labour Party, pretend these limiting factors do not exist, when they were in Government themselves they found that they were limiting factors also. I want to start off by admitting that I have not discovered any way of circumventing these factors and dispensing with any of the various stages I have outlined.
We do not build castles in the air.
(Interruptions.)
If all this can, in fact, be dispensed with by the simple process of declaring an emergency, not only am I prepared to be convinced but I am anxious to be convinced that it is possible to do so. I have not been convinced and I maintain that no serious effort was made to convince me.
We do not stick up the banks by nationalising them.
We heard plenty of the irrational type of nonsense which we hear at Dublin Speakers' Corner from Deputies opposite, but no serious arguments were put forward. It is obvious that in the shortened time I have at my disposal I will not be able to put all the facts before the House, but I will eventually put them before the House in spite of Opposition Deputies.
What about the lost years?
(Interruptions.)
Mr. J. Lenehan
Go and shave yourself.
Last year they contrived to avoid a debate on the Estimate for my Department but I do not think that manoeuvre will work this year, and I can assure them that whether they like it or not——
Will the Minister give us some facts? Will he tell us what he is going to do?
Even with the full co-operation of Fine Gael, if they can induce them to come in, they will not prevent me from putting these facts before them——
We will have an inquiry into the Minister's Department before we are finished.
——when there is time available for the debate on the Estimate.
Why does the Minister not put the facts before the House?
Mr. J. Lenehan
Deputy John O'Connell asked Deputy Kevin Boland to allow him into the Fianna Fáil Party but he would not be taken in.
(Interruptions.)
It was not to allow him into Fianna Fáil that he asked me. He said he was in Fianna Fáil and produced documentary evidence——
Who did?
——and suggested that that should circumvent the recommendation——
On a point of order, I want to ask did the Minister make some statement about me. I want to know has the Minister the right to make statements about me without qualification and without producing proof. He said something about me and I would like to have it clarified. This is a personal thing.
If the Deputy would mind his own business these things would not come up.
I should like the Minister to clarify this. It is very important. I should like it to be clarified immediately and I am demanding this.
This is the Minister of smear.
I was never, never, never a member of the Fianna Fáil Party.
Mr. J. Lenehan
You were not taken in. Did I not say you were not taken in?
I would ask Deputies on both sides of the House to please allow the Minister to wind up. He has only four minutes.
The Minister is wound up.
No effort has been made to show that this long and expensive process which I have described can be eliminated. No effort was made to show that finance does not, as the Government claim it does, depend on the state of the economy and the level of production. No effort was made to show that we can with impunity ignore the need for continuing investment in productive undertakings in order to maintain housebuilding at a high level. No effort has been made to show that acceptance of this suggested approach would not lead to the same type of disaster to which it led in 1956-57 when, through the imprudence and improvidence of the parties opposite, not alone did the housing programme come to an end, but the building industry was decimated and the skilled workers were scattered all over the world.
The Minister brought it to an end. This is the Minister for smear and propaganda.
(Interruptions.)
I am inclined to think that it would be foolish to take this resolution seriously.
The Minister has never taken anything like this seriously.
Perhaps I should refer to some of the points that were made. Here is what was advocated by the proposer of this motion, the man who was selected of the 17 people who signed this motion. He said: "Let us talk about a major crash programme ..." Imagine Deputies over there talking about another crash programme!
It is necessary.
"...a crash programme that will ensure that the people are housed within the next six to 12 months." Imagine being expected to take that seriously. Imagine being expected to take as a serious proposition that the problem outlined in the White Paper, Housing in the Seventies, can be solved within six to 12 months.
What about those who have been on the list for the past ten years?
(Interruptions.)
This is what the proposer of the resolution asked me to do. It is not possible either financially or physically——
It is impossible while you are Minister.
——to build that number of houses in one year in this country or any country, and no country has found it possible to do so.
The Minister wants to do nothing.
He did amend that Later he extended it to a period of 12 months—within one year. He asked me to stand up and say: "We will tackle this problem and have it cleared up in one year." I would not be so foolish as to make a statement like that because it just is not possible to do it. He went on to say that the Fianna Fáil Government did not want the people to be housed. "They are permitting the money to be directed into office blocks." First of all, is there anyone who can point out any office block on which public money has been spent in the past few years?
By way of rents.
Can anybody say how could the Government have got control of the money that has been spent on office blocks?
By Government rents.
It is true that there are certain institutions which have large sums of money available to them and they have invested that money in office blocks, but I could not have got it from them.
The Minister's insurance company.
For instance, there is the Transport Workers Union. I could not have got that money. I agree that it would be much more socially desirable if that money had been utilised to provide houses, even if it were on a selective basis and the houses made available to members only. That would have been much more socially desirable in my opinion, but I could not require these people not to invest this money in the most profitable way that was available to them. That was their prerogative.
(Interruptions.)
What I want to show is that it was not available to me. I could not divert that money into the production of houses.
Is that all the Minister has to say?
With regard to the other suggestion that Fianna Fáil were not interested in the provision of houses, all we have to do is look at the progress that has been made. We have reached the position where the housing problem in this expanding city is of smaller proportions than ever before.
Will the Minister tell the truth? What about the people on the waiting list?
Acting Chairman
The Minister has concluded because his time is up.
Is the seconder of the motion who staged a sit-down demonstration not going to conclude?
I will conclude.
Acting Chairman
I want to tell Deputy Corish that there are 15 minutes left.
I know that. It has been obvious since this debate began that the Minister for Local Government has been evading his responsibilities in regard to the building of houses. I do not want to take up time in talking about the attitude of the Minister, but this has been obvious in his behaviour, particularly when he refused on two occasions to deal with this motion put down by the Labour Party, when he preferred to let other members of the party speak.
I wanted to listen to the arguments. I wanted to be convinced.
The Minister would not avail of the 30 minutes that were available to him; he has taken 19 minutes here tonight. I do not know whether there is any significance in the number of backbenchers he has with him tonight, because on the last occasion he tried to disrupt discussion of this motion by stupid interruptions to the Chair complaining he had not been called when he had given away two chances to speak for a half an hour.
That is not correct. I wanted to listen to the arguments for and against and then reply.
I am not concerned with the various statistics that have been thrown around this House.
It is well known that you are not concerned with the facts.
What I am concerned about is what we say in our motion, that there is a crisis in regard to housing but the tenor of all the speeches I have heard from the Members on that side and from the Minister is that there is no such crisis and they are well satisfied with the progress or the lack of progress that there is, well satisfied to have thousands of families in this city and in this country without homes. It may not be a crisis for the members of the Fianna Fáil Party but it is indeed a crisis for the people who are concerned.
So far in this discussion the emphasis appears to have been on Dublin because, I suppose, the Deputies who spoke were from Dublin. While the situation in Dublin is the worst, I should like to remind the House that the crisis also exists in many other places outside the city of Dublin, in the towns and in rural Ireland.
(Interruptions.)
It is the same in towns in my constituency. In any case every Deputy must know there is a crisis in housing. I guarantee that, particularly in these winter months, many of the approaches that are made to the various Deputies and Senators are on the question of the lack of housing. I defy any Deputy here to say he is not approached many times during the week, or whenever he or she holds a clinic, on the availability of housing.
Mr. J. Lenehan
Is there a shortage in Wexford?
There is. As far as the city of Dublin is concerned we have conflicting figures. I suppose one of the best estimates of the number of houses needed may have been given by Deputy Seán Moore because he was honest enough to disregard what is described as the approved list, which suggests there is a need for something like 4,750 houses, and say the actual number of houses needed in this city is something like 8,000. Whether it is 8,000, 9,000 or 10,000, the fact is that there are these thousands of people here who want houses badly but who have no prospect of getting them within the foreseeable future. These figures in regard to housing requirements have varied from speaker to speaker, but we must recognise that there are thousands needed and that there is a crisis.
We can waste time in this House by comparing the record of the present Minister with that of a Fine Gael Minister or a Labour Minister. This can be a very amusing exercise, and I could protest in this House, and rightly so, that it was a Labour Minister who had the best record for housing. In any case these statistics that are thrown from one side of the House to the other make no impression on the people without homes of their own, and there is nothing that has been said recently by members of the Government, either tonight or any other time, that will give any hope to these people that they will be housed within a reasonable time. All we hear from the Minister at Question Time is that efforts are being made. He may be right when he says that, but the reason for our motion is that we believe that the effort is not sufficient and that a bigger effort should be made. That is the reason we say there is a crisis and why an emergency must be declared.
Is there not full employment in the building industry?
Apart from considering the fact that there are no houses, we must also consider the health hazards referred to by Deputy Dr. O'Connell when he introduced this motion. We have also to consider the morale of the family and particularly of the young people who are being forced to live in inadequate accommodation, who have been forced to live in hovels in the towns, cities and rural areas.
Put it to the test at the by-election.
The Minister has been described by members of his party as a very able Minister, as a Minister who knows his job.
(Interruptions.)
Would you put a stop to that rabble?
Is it in order——
How can the Minister know whether there is a crisis or not——
Is it in order for Deputy L'Estrange to describe Members of the House as rabble?
Acting Chairman
There have been many interruptions and it is very hard to single out an interruption from any side of the House, and I will call on Deputy Corish to resume because he has not much time left.
Mr. J. Lenehan
What about the remark that was made?
Acting Chairman
I would also call on Deputy Lenehan to resume his seat.
Mr. J. Lenehan
He should be asked to withdraw what he said.
Acting Chairman
Please allow the debate to proceed.
The Minister would not be in a position to know whether there was a crisis in housing when on his own admission in this House, in reply to a question by me, he said he did not know the number of applicants who are on the waiting list for houses in the various local authorities. If he does not know the extent of the problem, how can he deal with it? At least he could give us the result of the housing survey that was carried out by the local authorities about five years ago; we could even go on those figures and consider the number of houses that have been built since then, and the number that have been knocked down, in order that we might know what the actual problem is. There is no use in the Minister doing what he is wont to do: place the responsibility on the local authorities. His attitude is: when the record is good in certain places he wants to claim credit, but when it is bad he wants to blame the local authorities.
Deputy Joe Dowling, maybe rightly so, congratulated the Minister on the erection of the Ballymun flats. If he can do that in Ballymun, as Deputy Joe Dowling says, why can he not show the leadership he should give and ensure that a similar number of residences will be built throughout the country? There is no point in my talking about the record of this Government because as far as housing is concerned it has the worst record in Europe, on either side of the Iron Curtain.
That is not true.
We build half the number of houses in the 26 Counties that are built in the Six Counties.
That is not true.
This country devotes the lowest percentage of its national income to housing of any country in Europe.
That, again, is not true
That is true. I agree with the Minister that merely declaring a housing emergency does not mean we are going to get houses. I ask that not alone should we declare a housing emergency but that we should tackle the problem as though it were a real emergency in the same way as Fianna Fáil did, shortly after the last war. On that occasion they were successful. We ask them now to declare the same sort of emergency and to ensure that the resources will go to meet the greatest social need, that is, houses.
In the last two weeks we have had discussions with the trade union movements about this problem. They want to co-operate in an effort to provide houses; they want to be re-directed— naturally, they do not want to lose income or status—to build houses for their fellow workers. The Minister has admitted that materials are no problem We have been told that there is no shortage as far as money is concerned, but the Labour Party do not believe that in order to acquire money for housing the Government should have to go into competition for money at the same rate as it would have to if it were engaged in some industrial project. We believe this is a social need. We believe, as is the practice in Scandinavian countries, that money should be allowed to come to the local authorities at very much reduced rates of interest.
Mr. J. Lenehan
You have attacked the Gallagher Group who are building 1,000 houses a year.
They get £6,000 per acre for that land. I am asking the Minister to admit there is a crisis and to act. I think even Deputies in the Fianna Fáil Party, particularly those who are members of the local authority, must realise that as far as the lack of housing in this city is concerned we are sitting on a volcano which is likely to erupt at any time.
It did not erupt last June.
(Interruptions.)
Order, order.
It is the responsibility of the Minister for Local Government to ensure that houses are provided for our people and if he does not realise the position as far as the housing need is concerned, I suggest he should do what the Minister for Justice should do, if he cannot do his job: he should resign.
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 49; Níl, 67.
Tá
- Barry, Peter.
- Barry, Richard.
- Begley, Michael.
- Belton, Luke.
- Belton, Paddy.
- Browne, Nöel.
- Bruton, John.
- Burke, Joan.
- Burke, Liam.
- Burke, Richard.
- Burton, Philip.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Cluskey, Frank.
- Collins, Edward.
- Conlan, John.
- Corish, Brendan.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Cott, Gerard.
- Crotty, Kieran.
- Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
- Desmond, Barry.
- Donnellan, John.
- Dunne, Thomas.
- Enright, Thomas W.
- Finn, Martin.
- FitzGerald, Garret.
- Fox, Billy.
- Governey, Desmond.
- Harte, Patrick D.
- Hogan, Patrick.
- Jones, Denis F.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Keating, Justin.
- L'Estrange, Gerald.
- McLaughlin, Joseph.
- O'Connell, John F.
- O'Donnell, Tom.
- O'Donovan, John.
- O'Leary, Michael.
- O'Reilly, Paddy.
- O'Sullivan, John L.
- Pattison Séamus.
- Ryan, Richie.
- Spring, Dan.
- Taylor, Francis.
- Thornley, David.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Treacy, Seán.
- Tully, James.
Níl
- Aiken, Frank.
- Allen, Lorcan.
- Andrews, David.
- Barrett, Sylvester.
- Blaney, Neil.
- Boland, Kevin.
- Boylan, Terence.
- Brady, Philip A.
- Brennan, Paudge.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, Patrick.
- Browne, Seán.
- Burke, Patrick J.
- Carter, Frank.
- Childers, Erskine.
- Colley, George.
- Connolly, Gerard C.
- Cowen, Bernard.
- Cronin, Gerry.
- Crowley, Flor.
- Davern, Noel.
- de Valera, Vivion.
- Dowling, Joe.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Faulkner, Pádraig.
- Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
- Foley, Desmond.
- Forde, Paddy.
- French, Seán.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Des.
- Power, Patrick.
- Smith, Michael.
- Gallagher, James.
- Geoghegan, John.
- Gibbons, Hugh.
- Gibbons, James.
- Haughey, Charles.
- Healy, Augustine A.
- Herbert, Michael.
- Hillery, Patrick J.
- Hilliard, Michael.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Kenneally, William.
- Kitt, Michael F.
- Lalor, Patrick J.
- Lemass, Noel T.
- Lenehan, Joseph.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Lenihan, Patrick J.
- Loughnane, William A.
- Lynch, Celia.
- Lynch, John.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacSharry, Ray.
- Meaney, Thomas.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Moore, Seán.
- Moran, Michael.
- Nolan, Thomas.
- Noonan, Michael.
- O'Connor, Timothy.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Timmons, Eugene.
- Tunney, Jim.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dr. O'Connell and Tully; Níl, Deputies O'Malley and Meaney.
Question declared lost.