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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 Dec 1969

Vol. 243 No. 2

Private Members' Business (Resumed). - Old Age Pensions: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann is concerned about the plight of old age pensioners, particularly those living on their own and calls for substantial improvements in their pensions and the provision for them of a comprehensive home-help and meals service.

It is very sad that, on an occasion on which Dáil Éireann is asked to discuss the plight of the old age pensioners, the Fianna Fáil Party should use that occasion as an opportunity to try to get political advantage for themselves. It is also a pity that it should be used as an occasion for the Minister for Social Welfare to demonstrate his lack of interest in the plight of the old age pensioners by refusing to stay in the House and by refusing to here the points of view of Deputies who wish to express their views——

(Interruptions.)

If Deputies cannot allow Deputy Ryan to make his speech I shall be obliged to ask them to leave the House. We cannot carry on a debate in this fashion.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

We are asking that Dáil Éireann should concern themselves with the most dejected, dispirited, disheartened, depressed and confused people in our community and that they should particularly concern themselves with finding ways and means of improving the lot of the 12,000 old age pensioners living on their own, and who, living on their own, have to depend entirely upon such pittances as they may receive from the State. We believe our society is prepared to meet the cost of providing for old age pensioners a pension of not less than £5 per week. It is to that that we in Fine Gael are committed—a non-contributory old age pension of £5 per week to be paid at the age of 67 immediately for men and 65 immediately for women as a first step to making the pension available for all at 65.

We believe that retirement contributory old age pensions should be increased by at least half and that the qualifying age should again be reduced to 67 for men and 65 for women. We believe this is necessary in order to give to our elderly citizens the minimum required to keep body and soul together. But that is dealing only with the known old age pensioners, the known 12,000 who are living on their own, with all the old age pensioners who are known to be in difficulties. It does not deal with the countless thousands who are living in uncovered and unknown misery, misery which could be relieved and which ought to be relieved if only we would develop our social services and, instead of pretending the problem does not exist, find ways and means of, first of all, bringing the problem to light and then remedying it.

This is where we must very severely criticise the Minister for Social Welfare who has refused time and time again to bring into the Department of Social Welfare even one qualified sociologist. The truth is that even the most experienced and well-meaning Minister, or official, or, indeed, Member of this House, is only an amateur in problems of a social character and the problems of a social character are so difficult of resolution, sometimes so difficult of ascertainment that it requires all the techniques and all the skills which the science of sociology can apply to them in order to resolve them. There have been a number of on-the-spot investigations by charitable organisations and by sociological sections in our universities and each one of these investigations has disclosed a degree of misery and a number of unassisted people far beyond what was believed to exist. There is no use legislating to provide benefits unless steps are taken to ascertain the number entitled to such benefits and unless steps are taken to bring the benefits to them.

On a point of order, is the Ceann Comhairle aware that the Taoiseach, who has £8,500 a year, and none of the 16 Ministers of the Fianna Fáil Party, who are each in receipt of £5,500 a year, is in the front benches? Has this ever happened in this House before?

Mr. J. Lenehan

Did Mr. Cosgrave bring in a sociologist in 1932 when he took 1/- a week off the old age pension?

In reply to Deputy L'Estrange, it is not a matter for the Chair.

Has it ever before happened in this House since the foundation of the State? It shows the regard they have.

Mr. J. Lenehan

What regard could we have for the Deputies over there after their performance here tonight?

On a point of order, the House should be made aware that the junior Minister dealing with the Department of Social Welfare is sitting in the House.

Where? Not in the front bench.

Might I be allowed to continue?

There is a great need to revolutionise——

(Interruptions.)

Order. Deputy Ryan on the motion.

I am quite prepared to proceed without any Minister being present because I appreciate the utter lack of interest on the part of the Government in the plight of the old age pensioners and, if the Government decide to indicate that lack of interest by absenting themselves from the House, they are entitled to do that, just as they are entitled to get up here and pretend they are doing something about it. They are at least more honest by being absent.

Hear, hear.

(Interruptions.)

The Government by their absence indicate that they are not concerned with the plight of the old age pensioners.

I am sitting in the front bench now. Are Deputies satisfied?

The fact of the matter is we have the lowest old age pensions in Europe and we pay those five years later than any other nation in Europe. Our standards of care are so deplorably low we are unable to sign the European social charter which requires, before one signs it, that one gives to old age pensioners standards comparable to those given by all the other nations of Europe. We cannot sign because our standards are so low. It is because of that that we feel it is essential to bring to the attention of Dáil Éireann the plight of the old age pensioners.

(Interruptions.)

Would Deputy Dowling get out? If he is not concerned with the old age pensioners will he get out to blazes?

It is all hypocrisy.

The facts of the case speak for themselves. Why is Ireland the worst country in Europe, not from a financial or an economic point of view but from a social welfare point of view? We have this outrageous performance of the galoots of the Fianna Fáil Party being sent in here to try to prevent a reasoned, sensible discussion on the plight of the old age pensioners. This is just an indication of their whole attitude which is one of trying to collect votes by seeing how little they must give to hold on to power and not how much they should give to relieve the abject misery, the loneliness and the ill-health of old people. If we could bring that discussion to the sensible level on which it should be discussed then by pooling our resources we might be able to do something for the care of our aged who are more deserving of the help of the community.

We are asking not only for an improvement in the financial level of assistance, which is important, but we are also asking for a substantial improvement in the provision of home help and meal services. These are the kind of services which could do a great deal more for old age pensioners than even nominal yearly increases in the financial allowances given to them, because many elderly people are incapable of spending the money they get, incapable of spending it in a way beneficial to themselves.

What these people require in many cases is the advice and assistance of people who could bring to them benefits which their monetary allowance would not allow them to purchase for themselves. We ask the Government to make a special effort, with massive contributions, to support the innumerable voluntary organisations which are prepared to give of their charity, their time and their energy but who are unable to give the necessary help without financial assistance. We should ensure that the people who are charitably disposed and who are prepared to help our senior citizens should be able to devote their energy and their time to this end and that they should not be required, as they are at present, to go begging in the streets, running a series of raffles and other money gathering operations in order to bring vital assistance to elderly people in our community. What we should do is subsidise these voluntary services with all the financial aid which is necessary to match their effort in order to give a worthwhile service.

We are lucky in a number of areas in Dublin and in Dún Laoghaire in having very useful and very beneficial organisations which provide meals on wheels and home care but so far we are only scratching the surface. We need to do a great deal more if we are to help our people adequately. Fine Gael believe that we have a humanitarian obligation to do this which overrules any monetary disadvantage or any financial embarrassment which any of these things might involve for the Government of the day. In case that argument is not persuasive enough we believe we should appreciate that by the provision of adequate home meals and meal services, by the provision of domiciliary care, by the provision of home visitors, a community can keep their elder citizens in good health without sending them into costly institutions. One pound invested in home help or in meals services will yield many pounds profit by reason of the reduction which would be brought about in institutional care.

We have more of our elder citizens in institutions than any other country in Europe. We have, admittedly, a higher percentage of elder citizens because of our very high emigration rate of able-bodied people some of whom in their closing years return to Ireland, but even allowing for any discrepancy which there may be in the relationship between elder citizens and the rest of the community we still have a much higher percentage of elderly people in institutions. This is indicative of the fact that our old age pensioners are suffering real hardship and because they have not sufficient to maintain themselves with an adequate diet and ample clothing they fall into ill-health and have to receive care in institutions.

I believe that the Department of Social Welfare have moved in the right direction in recent times in that they have provided worthwhile fringe benefits not only in relation to the provision of meals on wheels and so on but in regard to free travel and free electricity. These benefits have been of immense value. A case comes to my mind as I speak of a lady who is not eligible for the non-contributory pension because she has some small investments, the value of which, of course, is depreciating each year. Her plea is that she be given not a pension, which she is not seeking because her income is just above making her eligible, but that she be given free travel. She says, and I believe she is right, that her ability to travel to see her relatives and friends is what is keeping her going. She is 74 years of age and she still rides a bicycle from Rathmines to Glasnevin twice a week. She says that her capacity to do this cannot last much longer. This unfortunate lady is then likely to degenerate into little more than a vegetable and she will be confined to her one room in Rathmines as she has not the income to pay for bus fares twice a week. This is an illustration of the kind of assistance we should be giving to these people in order to allow them to lead a full life and relieve their misery and their loneliness.

Loneliness is one of the greatest problems and one of the prime factors which contribute to the disintegration of people in old age. Loneliness leads to a whole host of problems. We commend this motion to Dáil Éireann and we ask the House to concern itself with the plight of old age pensioners. This is something which nobody in his sane moments is going to dispute and we anticipate that we will get the unanimous support of the House for this motion. That is all we ask, to help these old age pensioners, particularly those living on their own, with substantial improvements and with the various fringe benefits that could be given to them to maintain them as useful citizens.

I second the motion. May I proceed?

I do not wish to be discourteous to the Deputy but what is the procedure? Is it that the Deputy formally seconds the motion and sits down?

He is entitled to speak.

As the seconder of the motion, the Deputy can proceed or reserve his remarks until later on.

I wish to speak now. Every Deputy, irrespective of party will, deep down, agree in principle with the suggestion in this motion. Deputy Ryan outlined the situation pretty thoroughly and there is very little that I can add to what he said but while the magnitude of the problem of our aged is generally appreciated, unfortunately, there is very little specific knowledge available about the actual problem. The lack of proper sociological research into the problem of the old age pensioners and into other social problems is a serious setback.

In appending my name to this motion, I was influenced by the fact that a voluntary group in Limerick city undertook a survey some time ago into the unmet needs of elderly people living alone in Limerick city. The survey was conducted by the Ignatian Sodality attached to the Church of the Sacred Heart in Limerick which is run by the Jesuit Fathers. The report of the survey was subsequently published in booklet form. It pinpoints dramatically some of the problems of old age pensioners, particularly of those living alone.

Not one member of the voluntary group who carried out the survey was a qualified sociologist and therefore it was limited in scope. A total of 64 people were interviewed as a result of a questionnaire which was sent out to 100 people. The survey revealed that 80 per cent of the old age pensioners interviewed were dependent on the old age pension—their only income; 11 per cent of them, in addition to their old age pension received contributions from voluntary services and a further 12 per cent, in addition to having the old age pension, had income from savings and investments. The stark fact is that 80 per cent of those interviewed had no income other than the old age pension. I do not conclude that the figure of 80 per cent which emerged in the Limerick survey would apply throughout the whole country, but it indicates a serious situation. Just imagine the type of existence these unfortunate persons must endure if they are living alone and are solely dependent on the old age pension. Each person interviewed was asked how often they could afford a square meal which, for the purpose of the survey, was a meal which included meat, potatoes and some vegetables. Only 50 per cent could afford a square meal each day. A further 38 per cent could afford a square meal only twice weekly. A further ten per cent could have a square meal less often than once a week. The report points out that one old person in ten has a square meal less often than once a week and can reasonably be presumed to be hungry and in fact to be dying of slow starvation.

These facts emphasise the need for a new deal for our old pensioners, particularly those living alone. Tremendous work is being done by voluntary groups. Deputy Ryan referred to the voluntary groups who are doing excellent work in the city of Dublin. I wish to pay tribute to the many people and the various organisations in my own city of Limerick who, likewise, are doing tremendous work in helping the aged, in trying to make life a little easier for them. However, voluntary effort is not sufficient, I fear we have left too much to voluntary effort in this serious social problem.

The same survey examined not merely the income of the old age pensioners in Limerick but also their housing conditions and their health and medical problems. According to the report, of the 64 people interviewed over 50 per cent had more than one illness. Only four per cent of those interviewed at that time were in hospital or had been there in the previous three months. A further 28 per cent had been out-patients; 50 per cent under medical care. Thirty per cent had bad eyesight and 15 per cent were hard of hearing. Sixty-six per cent of those who were ill said they would welcome a visit from a medically-trained person but only a small percentage were having such visits.

The Government are now beginning to recognise the need for home care. I understand that there is provision in the Bill for nursing and home care. We must approach the problem of our old age pensioners in a realistic manner. They have been left for far too long to eke out a miserable existence, dependent in most cases on the various voluntary organisations who have done a tremendous job. There is a need for more surveys of this type. I admit that it is very easy to generalise. It is very easy to be emotionally aroused when one speaks of the needy and under-privileged sections of our community. It is only when we tackle the situation on a factual basis and publish and study the results of work such as that done by the voluntary group in Limerick that we can realise the magnitude of this problem.

I sincerely hope that the Minister will take due notice of this motion. I do not think it is a motion which should give rise to any political acrimony. As Deputy Ryan said, it was a deplorable state of affairs that when he stood up a short time ago to propose the motion he was subjected to interruptions and barracking from across the House. This motion was put down in good faith and with the intention of focusing proper attention on the problems of old age pensioners, and particularly those who are living alone. I have pinpointed the problem by quoting from the survey which was carried out in Limerick city. I am sure every Deputy in the House is familiar with the problems of the aged and that we all agree about them. Therefore I second the motion and I sincerely hope that the Minister will accept it and that something will be done to alleviate the plight of these unfortunate people.

This is a motion which, naturally enough, will get the support of every Member of the House. It should have been non-contentious. Nevertheless, when Deputy Ryan started to speak on this motion he accused the Fianna Fáil Party of a number of things. I think his most scandalous suggestion was that we, in the Fianna Fáil Party as a whole, have not interested ourselves in the problems of the aged——

Sufficiently.

With respect, Sir, that is the reason why he was interrupted.

He was interrupted before he started.

On the question brought up by Deputy L'Estrange, who continues to embarrass his party by bringing up political matters about the absense of Ministers and so on, we have here a junior Minister, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare. I should like to pay tribute to the Parliamentary Secretary. It is only fair to say that as Deputies we who deal with the Department of Social Welfare receive answers with great efficiency and great speed. I should like to pay special tribute to him because this is an occasion on which I believe a matter like that arises.

The motion reads:

That Dáil Éireann is concerned about the plight of old age pensioners, particularly those living on their own and calls for substantial improvements in their pensions and the provision for them of a comprehensive home-help and meals service.

Deputy O'Donnell in his usual fair manner mentioned a sociological survey which was conducted in Limerick. It is a tribute to these people that, in fact, they did conduct a survey. That is what community effort is all about. In doing so Deputy O'Donnell actually suggested—and I know he meant it because it is a fact—that there is a Bill going through Dáil Éireann at this very point in time to deal with this motion, namely, the question of home care and home nursing. That surely is an answer to the suggestion that this party are not interested in this problem.

It is a repetition of the 1947 Act.

Any Deputy in this House calling himself a public representative could not put himself up for election by the people and not agree with this type of motion. As public representatives we do not agree entirely with the contents of the motion but we agree with the thinking behind it.

Mr. Browne

Remember it was in 1932 that Fianna Fáil took over.

Yes, but remember too, with great respect, that the Opposition Parties had a couple of periods of office. I do not wish to go back to the times when money was taken from the old age pensioners.

They got no increase from 1932 to 1948—16 long years.

Small sums of money were given when the socialist Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Corish, was in office. I do not want to be contentious about this.

The man who took off the shilling is now in Fianna Fáil. Indeed he is. It is interesting to note that.

This is a non-political matter, a non-contentious matter in which Deputies on all sides of the House have an interest and a very deep interest.

He was used during the PR campaign.

If I may make a number of points about the increases in pensions which were given to recipients of social welfare, in nine years out of the past ten years increases were given to social welfare recipients of one kind or another. When I use the words "social welfare" I use them in the sense of social security. Surely that shows an awareness of the problem which this motion allegedly presents?

As public representatives we are fully aware of the marvellous work done by the voluntary bodies in various areas around the country. If I might mention one in particular in my own constituency, it is the Dún Laoghaire Old Folks' Association. Last Sunday 600 people walked from the car ferry terminal on a circuitous route of eight miles to do some good for the old folk in that area. In that one effort they collected £600. This is the sort of community effort which gives a great amount of hope and a great sense of security to those people.

Of course there are old people living on their own. I do not think it needs a sociological survey to make us realise that. What we on this side of the House are now doing is ensuring that these people are attended to, that they will receive care, that they are made aware of the fact that they are part of the community in which they live, that they are our senior citizens, and that we have an obligation and a duty to them. I believe we on this side of the House are discharging this obligation to our senior citizens as best we can within the limited means at our disposal.

I refute any suggestion that this party are not interested in the plight of these people—unfortunately made a political plight by the Fine Gael Party in their various statements, with the exception of that made by Deputy O'Donnell who is, as I have said, a fair-minded Deputy. We are well aware of a social lack in many areas but we are the only party capable of finding a solution to the problems presented.

I should like to go back to the question of the work being done in the community by the voluntary organisations. No praise is high enough for the work these people do. Indeed, apart from the situation prevailing in relation to old people living on their own, has the House given any consideration to the position of those people who have no homes to live in, those people who have rejected society? Have they ever considered the work done by the organisation known as the Simon Community, an organisation which operates in the city of Dublin between the hours of 11 o'clock at night and 5 or 6 o'clock in the morning, an organisation which is operated by young people? We hear a lot of condemnation of young people but these are young people, students, civil servants and people from all strata in the community. They are aware of the social problem which prevails. Not only are they aware of it but they do something practical about it. The Simon Community deserves the greatest praise from this House. They go from door to door, almost literally, around the city. I do not suggest that the community as a whole has done nothing at all for the unfortunate people whom they attend to—the unfortunate people who have rejected society and, as a consequence, have probably become addicted to alcohol or have some such unfortunate sociological problem. This work is being done by young people in our community. Every Deputy must be in favour of the sentiments of this motion.

Debate adjourned.
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