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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 5 Dec 1969

Vol. 243 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote 41—Transport and Power.

In the absence of the Minister for Transport and Power, who is indisposed, I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £500,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1970, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Transport and Power, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of sundry grants-in-aid.

The purpose of this supplementary estimate is to provide an additional £500,000 to enable Bord Fáilte to pay grants in respect of development works carried out in hotels and other forms of holiday accommodation. The original provision for this purpose was £1 million which was voted as a grant-in-aid under subhead F.3 of my Department's Vote but this sum has proved insufficient to meet all the commitments that have arisen this year.

As Deputies will be aware, the tourist industry has made considerable progress during the 1960's and the 1968 earnings of £93 million were more than double those of 1960. This expansion has been brought about by a deliberate Government programme involving the investment of considerable sums through Bord Fáilte in development and promotion. Accommodation is of course a key area in tourism and here we have been very fortunate in having an hotel industry which has geared itself to the Government's development programme and has undertaken expansion and improvement to meet the needs of the increased traffic.

The hotel industry, in undertaking development works, has had the benefit of cash grants and interest grants from Bord Fáilte, as well as allowances for tax purposes in respect of capital investment. The Bord Fáilte grant scheme is operated on a flexible basis so as to provide maximum encouragement to projects which best meet the needs of the modern tourist in terms of location, standards and price. In this connection, the scheme takes special account of the position of the west which has so much to gain from tourist development but which is in some ways unattractive from a commercial investment viewpoint because of the more scattered local population and the lack of off-season business.

In drawing up the accommodation development programme and administering the grant schemes Bord Fáilte make estimates of the additional number of bedrooms required taking account of the rate and pattern of traffic growth, the increased capacity provided on transport services and the projections for future traffic increase. They must take account also of a certain amount of annual loss of accommodation which arises for various reasons, for example, hotels closing down or being converted to other purposes, reductions in the number of bedrooms through reconstruction and improvement works, etc. On the basis of all this information and the assessment of market demand, the board prepare annual growth targets. During the period covered by the Second Programme for Economic Expansion the target for hotel bedrooms was an average increase of 1,200 rooms a year. In fact, the number of additional rooms fell behind this figure and for the four years 1964 to 1967 there was a net shortfall of over 2,000 bedrooms. This could have led to a serious shortage of accommodation in some areas during the summer months were it not for the fact that a promotional campaign led to the rapid expansion of supplementary accommodation. Welcome as this development is, there are forms of tourist traffic such as group travel and organised package holidays which require adequate blocks of hotel accommodation. In order to secure the necessary development, the scale of the financial incentives was improved in 1967.

The improved incentives, accompanied by an easing of credit restrictions and a growing confidence in the future of Irish tourism, have led to an increase in the rate of investment. A further development has been the employment of more advanced methods in the planning and execution of hotel projects. The result of all this has been that the number of new hotels and the number of extensions and improvements to existing hotels which have been completed and have fallen due for grant payment in the current financial year have exceeded the assessment made when the estimates were being prepared over a year ago.

This has meant that Bord Fáilte have been unable to meet all the grant commitments arising and hoteliers who entered into development works in good faith have been waiting for their grant moneys. This in turn has affected builders and other firms providing services to hotels. It is in these circumstances that the need for a supplementary estimate has arisen. The additional sum involved, £500,000, is the minimum amount necessary to enable Bord Fáilte to meet the immediate and inescapable commitments— those cases where works have been satisfactorily completed and certified and where a grant payment must be made in the current financial year.

The increased investment stimulated by the 1967 improvement in the incentives has meant that the deficit in room numbers that I mentioned earlier has now been overtaken. A net addition of 2,050 rooms in 1968 and an estimated 3,200 in the current year has meant that the shortfall has been eliminated and we are now somewhat ahead of target. This does not of course mean that we should change over to a policy of discouraging development.

Our tourist industry has been recording very significant growth and the Third Programme for Economic and Social Development calls for continued expansion at the rate of six per cent per annum at constant values—a rate considerably higher than that projected for the economy as a whole. Our tourist programme is based on the achievements of that growth rate. It would be folly to devote State moneys to attracting additional traffic from abroad and to invest heavily in the expansion of travel facilities unless we ensure also that visitors' needs in hotels, guesthouses, etc., are adequately met. The additional bedroom growth which we have recently recorded provides only a modest margin and with tourist traffic expanding regularly there is so far no danger of over-development. Nevertheless the incentive scheme and progress thereunder is at present being reviewed. It was suggested recently that Bord Fáilte targets may possibly be too high. Bord Fáilte have had an objective professional study of the position initiated and a preliminary report indicates that expansion at or in excess of the Bord Fáilte estimates is required.

It is clear, therefore, that it would be wrong to call a halt to hotel development. We must, of course, be selective in this matter and for that reason the Bord Fáilte incentives are operated on a discretionary and flexible basis so that the development programme will be carried out in a balanced and rational way.

I feel there may be some misconception about the general pattern of our hotel development. There is a belief that the bulk of new accommodation takes the form of large new hotels operated on an impersonal basis without adequate regard to Irish traditions of service and hospitality. This is far from being the case. In administering the grant schemes, Bord Fáilte favour the provision of extra accommodation through the extension of existing hotels where possible, because the family hotel with its emphasis on informality and friendly service is an important element in our tourist industry. A large number of hotels throughout the country have in fact availed of the grant scheme to extend and improve their premises. The response in the western countries, where higher maxima apply, has been particularly good and out of a total of 3,556 additional hotel bedrooms provided in 1967 and 1968, 2,394 or 67 per cent were provided by existing and new hotels in the west. Of these 2,394 rooms, 1,008 were in extensions to existing hotels and 1,386 were provided by 46 new hotels.

The average size of the new hotels was 32 bedrooms. The same pattern emerges from an analysis of projects now in the pipeline. There has of course been a considerable rise in hotel standards also. This is in keeping with rising standards generally and is exemplified by an increase in the number of rooms with bath from 1,160 in 1960 to 8,163 in 1969. Overall, a satisfactory rate of expansion and improvement has been established which should enable us to continue to cater for a growing tourist trade.

Prices are an important factor in tourism and our hotels and other tourist services have been affected by rising costs just like all other enterprises. I am assured that by international standards our prices are quite competitive but we must ensure at all times that our prices represent good value for money. Some European countries which have got a reputation for high prices have seen the consequences in a declining tourist trade. I would echo the recent appeal by the president of the Irish Hotels Federation who urged hoteliers not to take the easy way out by automatically passing on increased costs through raised prices but to absorb as much as possible of the increase through more efficient operation.

As the programme for development of holiday accommodation is part of a general programme for tourist development, it might not be out of place for me to say a few words about the tourist industry generally. Our general objective under the Third Programme for Economic and Social Development is to secure an annual growth rate of six per cent at constant values. Within this overall objective, Bord Fáilte are seeking a significant increase in off-season traffic with the ultimate aim of achieving an acceptable level of year-round tourism. It is in the interests of all elements of the tourist trade to secure maximum utilisation of our resources and of course the benefits of year-round tourism in terms of more stable employment will be obvious to everyone. I am glad to say that the tourist industry is united in this aim and that all sectors are co-operating in the measures necessary to achieve it.

Another important aspect of the current tourist programme is the growing significance of car ferry traffic. In the 10-month period January-October, 1969, 108,000 cars were brought in on the direct car ferry services, representing an increase of 22 per cent on the corresponding period of 1968. This year we had the benefit of the new Cork/Swansea service as well as increased capacity on other routes. Next year, capacity will be further increased and British Rail will be providing a new service between Dún Laoghaire and Heysham. A welcome feature is that three of the existing car ferry services are operating on a year-round basis and it is hoped that by 1971 all the services will be operated all the year round.

With the general recognition of the economic value of tourism, there has also come an increasing awareness of its social and cultural aspects. I think it is important that we should recognise that tourism is a pervasive influence and it behoves us therefore to exercise careful discernment about the pattern of tourist development. We do not have in Ireland the type of attractions which appeal to the mass market and I consider that it would be a mistake to try to provide them. We have, however, unrivalled facilities for motoring, general sight-seeing and a whole range of recreational and other special interest activities. The discriminating visitor appreciates what we have to offer in Ireland and is particularly attracted to remote but scenic areas. Thus he makes less demand on organised or man-made facilities and at the same time advances the redistributive effect of tourism by bringing additional income to less-populated areas.

We are now approaching the end of 1969 but I am afraid it is not possible yet to make any reliable assessment of this year's tourism earnings. Figures for the first eight months of the year show that inward passenger traffic from Britain and Europe increased by 7.2 per cent over the corresponding period of 1968 and traffic from North America increased by 26 per cent. The overall increase for these areas was 8.8 per cent. I should point out, however, that estimates of traffic from Northern Ireland are not yet available and it is to be expected that returns from this sector will have been affected by the disturbed situation in the north. Furthermore, the overseas publicity on the Northern Ireland situation has probably affected traffic from other areas in the later months of the year. I would expect therefore that when the official returns are available from the Central Statistics Office, they will show that we have fallen behind the Third Programme target of a six per cent annual growth rate. Prospects for 1970 are also dependent on the situation in the north. However, given peaceful conditions in the north and assuming that no other unforeseen adverse circumstances arise, there are good prospects that we will achieve tourism targets in 1970 and secure continued tourism growth.

The continued development and improvement of our stock of holiday accommodation to meet market needs is an essential part of our tourist development programme and accordingly I commend the supplementary estimate to the House.

The introduction of this supplementary estimate provides an opportunity to discuss the very important aspect of what is fast becoming our most important industry. The sum of £500,000 is for the purpose of meeting certain grant commitments. The Minister, referring to the planning and execution of hotel projects said:

The result of all this has been that the number of new hotels and the number of extensions and improvements to existing hotels which have been completed and have fallen due for grant payment in the current financial year have exceeded the assessment made when the Estimates were being prepared over a year ago.

In view of the importance of the tourist industry to our economy—we are now approaching the £100 million mark in tourist earnings—and its contribution directly and indirectly to our balance of payments, it is deplorable that a proper assessment could not have been made when the Estimate was being prepared. It is a bad state of affirs that a number of people who built extensions to their hotels and who were eligible for grants should have been left waiting for the grants for a considerable time. This is indicative of very bad planning and very poor foresight.

My information is that the grants outstanding at the moment extend to some £750,000 and I should like to know why, when it was felt necessary to introduce a supplementary estimate, that an Estimate adequate to meet all the outstanding grants should not have been introduced.

With regard to holiday accommodation grants, it is extremely difficult for Members of this House to express a considered opinion on the subvention for accommodation grants because the information available to us from Bord Fáilte reports and other sources, and even from the Minister's introductory speech this morning, is totally inadequate. The Board Fáilte report is remarkable for its brevity. There is just one column in it under the heading "accommodation" which gives the total figure for accommodation grants. Bord Fáilte pays a substantial sum every year by way of holiday accommodation grants. I cannot understand why they do not give particulars in this respect in their annual report similar to those in the report of An Foras Tionscal where details of grants for industrial projects are clearly stated.

It is now two years since Members of this House have been afforded an opportunity of debating the tourist industry. It is over two years since the last annual Estimate for the Department of Transport and Power was discussed here : last year there was no time to do so. As this year is now drawing to a close, it looks as if we shall not have an opportunity for such a discussion. Despite these comments and criticisms, the provision of adequate and suitable accommodation is a most important factor in our tourist industry. There has been a tremendous increase in the accommodation available for holidaymakers. According to the latest figures from Bord Fáilte 93,000 persons can now be accommodated nightly in premises registered or approved by Bord Fáilte. Still more accommodation will be necessary to meet the demands of the 1970s. That is particularly so in view of the larger type of aircraft and the car ferry service.

Despite what the Minister says here, despite what seems to be the general opinion, despite the Bord Fáilte report and even the Third Programme, in relation to the holiday needs of the future, it is extraordinary that the president of the Irish Hoteliers Federation should have stated at their recent annual general meeting that we must call an immediate halt to the building of new hotels if we are not to continue the downgrade in our servicing. The president said he made that statement deliberately. He said that the most important work we have now to do is to raise the physical and operational standard of our existing hotels and guesthouses and provide in them the amenities which the present-day visitor demands. He said that when this has been done we can continue with the provision of new hotels.

The reason the Hoteliers Federation are concerned about the building of new hotels hinges on the shortage of qualified staff which is perhaps the most serious problem affecting the hotel industry. I am glad that provision is now being made at official level for improving and extending facilities for the training of hotel workers. This problem has not been tackled in a realistic fashion in recent years. In the past ten years we have doubled the amount of holiday accommodation but no provision was made at the same time to improve and extend training facilities for hotel staffs. The Minister did not refer to that problem this morning. I understand that discussions have taken place between Bord Fáilte, the hoteliers and guesthouse owners and the Department on the subject of staff training.

The Minister made some general comment in relation to the development of the tourist industry. He pointed out that group travel and organised package holidays are becoming the order of the day. In recent years there has been a vast change in the tourist trade pattern. The greatest demand now is for the "package holiday". With the improvement in car ferry facilities, more mobile tourists will come here and that, too, will pose problems of hotel and guesthouse accommodation. Persons who bring their cars to this country or hire cars here will travel extensively throughout the country and very often such persons will go into the more remote parts. It has been noted in recent times that parts of the country which could not be termed tourist centres have had more and more tourists because, perhaps, of special natural attractions in those areas. In the light of these factors, I wonder if we are providing the type of accommodation these people require.

I have already referred to the lack of adequate information from Bord Fáilte in relation to hotel development and in relation to the manner in which grants are allocated. I should like the Minister to indicate the criteria or priorities which influence Bord Fáilte in allocating grants for particular types of holiday accommodation. While the Minister may not wish to state the amount of grants which have been paid to any individual, I see no reason why he cannot give a breakdown in the figures, indicating particularly what proportion of the money paid in grants, what proportion of this £½ million, has been paid or will be paid to people who provided additional accommodation in luxury and four star hotels, what proportion went to the medium type hotel and what proportion went to guesthouse owners. Surely this is information to which we, as Members of this House who are expected to approve a supplementary estimate for £½ million, are entitled?

In relation to the development of holiday accommodation, a number of serious problems have come to light in recent times. The Minister referred to one or two of these problems. Spokesmen for the Irish hoteliers have expressed concern at the extent to which the State has become involved in the hotel business. In recent times we saw the Aer Lingus link-up with Ryans Tourist Holdings. We have also seen proposals for the development of motels by CIE and its subsidiary Ostlanna Iompair Éireann. There was also the recent announcement by the Minister of State involvement in a proposed new hotel at Dublin Airport.

It is my considered opinion that the private sector of the hotel industry should be encouraged and assisted in every way possible to meet the accommodation needs of the future. I also believe that the private sector of the hotel industry has not been assisted up to the present as it should have been assisted, because the present system of grants and other inducements is not adequate to enable the private sector to make the maximum contribution to the development of the hotel industry.

There is another serious flaw in our manner of assisting the development of hotel and guesthouse accommodation. There is no proper method available of assisting the highly qualified hotel managers. We have quite a large number of people who were trained at the Shannon Hotel School and other places, who are highly qualified, and whose ambition it is to become owners of hotels. I agree entirely with recent public statements made by representatives of the hotel industry that the absence of a proper credit corporation for the hotel industry is a serious drawback. I would urge on the Minister the advisability of examining the possibility of setting up some type of credit corporation which would enable highly-qualified young managers to open their own hotels.

I have discussed this with a number of these people. In most cases these young highly-qualified hotel managers are interested in opening the smaller family type hotel with 20 to 30 bedrooms. There is a demand for this type of accommodation, where there is personal supervision by the owner, and where staff problems are not so acute as in the large hotels. We should concentrate more and more on developing this type of accommodation. I sincerely hope that, before long, a proper organisation will be set up to provide the financial and other assistance necessary to enable young Irish hotel managers to become owners of hotels.

In relation to the development of hotel accommodation, as a matter of priority our policy should be to make it possible for the existing hoteliers and guesthouse owners to extend and improve their accommodation. This should be a top priority in the provision of holiday accommodation. Secondly, something on the lines of the Industrial Credit Company or the Agricultural Credit Corporation should be available to enable people who are interested in setting up their own hotels to get the necessary financial assistance at a reasonable rate. In addition to grants and other incentives which are available at the moment, they should be able to obtain the necessary long term loans at a reasonable rate of interest.

The Minister referred to the importance of extending the tourist season. This, of course, is a very important factor in the future development of the tourist industry. I am very pleased to note that Bord Fáilte have been giving special attention to the problem of extending the tourist season. A new task force has been set up with responsibility for developing what has now come to be known as year-round tourism. There are a number of difficulties in the way of extending the tourist season.

However, recent figures indicate that the spring and late autumn are periods which hold out considerable scope for expansion, particularly in the matter of special interest holidays, conferences and based holidays. There has been a considerable growth in the number of holidaying anglers coming into the country, particularly people from Great Britain who are interested in coarse angling. One of the big advantages in the development of this type of special interest holidays is that the visitors can pursue their special interest outside the peak tourist season.

Another priority which Bord Fáilte have adopted in their efforts to increase year-round tourism is the development of conferences and also the development of further student traffic, and I also note here in a special memorandum issued by Bord Fáilte that the board are now paying special attention to the development of ethnic traffic. I am developing this point in relation to the fact that we are now asked to approve a supplementary estimate for £500,000 for the provision of additional holiday accommodation. There is not much point in providing extra holiday accommodation if we cannot ensure the maximum utilisation of this extra accommodation and, as I said, Bord Fáilte are paying special attention to the problem of extending the tourist season.

There are a few other points which the Minister made and which he did not develop fully. He said that Bord Fáilte are seeking a significant increase in off-season traffic with the ultimate aim of achieving an acceptable level of year-round tourism. I do not know what progress has been made, and again in the absence of statistical and other information, it is virtually impossible to comment on this. There was a problem which arose last year and the early part of this year because Bord Fáilte a year ago decided to allocate the maximum portion of their advertising budget to the development of off-season traffic. This was quite successful but it seemed to have the effect of reducing the number of people who were coming here at the peak period. All the emphasis of advertising was on encouraging people to come here in the off-peak season and there seemed to be an imbalance in this regard. Although the Minister has not said so in his speech, I understand that rather than aiming at advertising and promoting off-season traffic the aim now is to promote year-round traffic.

The Minister also refers to the growing significance of car ferry traffic, stating that in the ten-month period, January to October, 1969, 108,000 cars were brought in on the direct car ferry service representing an increase of 22 per cent on the corresponding period of 1968.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present.

I believe that our tourist industry has tremendous scope for further development. However, there are certain problems which will have to be tackled particularly in relation to staff training to which I have already referred. There is also tremendous scope for the development of holiday accommodation on the lines of small hotel, guesthouse and farmhouse holiday accommodation and particularly the more recent development of cottages for renting. I am glad to know from the Bord Fáilte report that the provision of farmhouse accommodation has shown a very good rate of progress and that there are now 1,905 registered farmhouses providing accommodation for holiday makers which comes up to the Bord Fáilte standards.

The recent scheme, known as the rent-a-cottage scheme, promoted by the Shannon Free Airport Development Company to provide cottages for renting to tourists is proving to be a very great success, and recently in reply to questions in the Dáil it was stated that it was the intention to provide these cottages in various parts of the country. I regret that in his speech this morning the Minister did not make any reference to it, but I do not know whether any of the money we are now asked to vote in this supplementary estimate is going towards the financing of this cottage-type accommodation.

There is growing criticism of the lack of information available in the Bord Fáilte reports about the development of the tourist industry in general. There is a lack of information on future needs, particularly in the matter of the accommodation we were discussing this morning. I would ask the Minister to ensure that in future estimated demands for holiday accommodation will be accurate, that we shall not have a situation occurring, as has occurred, where people extend their premises to provide additional accommodation, having been given an assurance that they would be paid the normal level of grant, and then find that when the grants fall due for payment there is no money available. I am pleased, as I said at the outset, that steps are being taken now in this supplementary estimate to pay part of the grants outstanding, but I am surprised that the Minister did not go the whole way and make provision in this supplementary estimate for the payment of £¾ million which is the sum due to the hoteliers and others who undertook this expansion work with the approval of Bord Fáilte.

I would like to express my regret at the temporary indisposition of the Minister. The obvious comment to make about this comparatively large supplementary estimate is that seasoned estimators would not make the same error. Deputy O'Donnell has drawn attention to certain defects in the Minister's speech. Certainly there is a lack of specific information in it.

The sentence:

The additional sum involved, £500,000, is the minimum amount necessary to enable Bord Fáilte to meet the immediate and inescapable commitments.

suggests that there are very much larger commitments lurking in the background, but that Bord Fáilte cannot put this particular commitment on the long finger. I am fully in agreement with the Government bringing in this supplementary estimate, instead of putting the matter on the long finger. The case is made in the Minister's speech that the experience of Bord Fáilte in preceding years has been such that they could not be quite sure that what was being put forward would be carried out. This under-estimate of 50 per cent is an extraordinary error to be made in view of all we hear about economic forecasting nowadays.

This expansion has been brought about by a deliberate Government programme to develop and promote tourism. I do not decry in any way what has been done by Bord Fáilte. I think the claim about the necessity of supplying accommodation is justified. The tourist industry throughout the western world is a rapidly expanding one and we are bound to get our share of it. Credit for the development and promotion of tourism should be given to the community in general as well as to Bord Fáilte.

A few years ago, and it was pointed out to us by people writing in a friendly fashion, it was thought that our hotels would price us out of the tourist business. Inflation has caught up with that, but the cost of staying in a good hotel for one or two nights horrifies me. Up to a few years ago prices in hotels such as the Shelbourne and the Gresham gave fabulous value to people who were used to travelling in Europe and the United States. They are not such fabulous value now.

Reference has been made to the problem of staff and there is no doubt that this is a serious matter. The Government and Bord Fáilte are to be commended on their efforts to remedy the situation. A good few years ago I had a very bad experience in a grade A hotel in the west with regard to the way it was kept, but I am quite certain that things have changed.

Reference has also been made to the necessity for building comparatively large hotels because of the development of the package tour. I used to wonder why people went on these tours, but having taken a package tour to Italy, I think it is a wonderful thing. One does not have to worry about anything; one makes a single booking and in that way one can have a real holiday. Certainly, the package tour has a great deal to recommend it.

The Minister said at the end of his speech that most people come here for a quiet holiday and to see our scenery. Certainly, compared with other western countries we have a great poverty except in Dublin of artistic treasures and architecture. All we have are the remains of a former civilisation.

Many British people come here for a motoring holiday and the provision of guesthouse accommodation is a great advantage to them. It means they can enjoy a long day, until about 10.30 at night without having to worry about where they are going to spend the night. At the height of the season it can be very difficult.

We have been endeavouring to lengthen our tourist season by promoting holidays in September and October but I think the beauty of this country in the month of May could be the subject of a promotional campaign which would bring forward the beginning of the tourist season. We must not be complacent about our tourist industry. We have had the benefit of two remarkable years climatically, something that does not normally happen here. People who came here in 1968 tended to return in 1969. In many parts of western Europe it becomes too hot in midsummer whereas we get the most wonderful weather; it is ideal for people whose home countries are very hot during the summer. That is particularly true of the Americans and there is no doubt that climate was the main factor in this tremendous increase in the American tourist traffic this year.

There is one thing that interests me personally from the point of view of accommodation. It is the high standard of accommodation and the excellent meals provided in farm guesthouses. I notice that foreigners are more numerous in these than our own people. I suppose, where our own are concerned, families tend to take a house at the seaside and business people tend to go to hotels. As I say, foreigners were very numerous in these excellently run farm guesthouses. Those who run them are to be congratulated on the standards and the very moderate prices. Except for this remarkable error in estimation —one might, perhaps, make some quips about the verbiage, about words like "shortfall" and so one—there is nothing against this supplementary estimate. This development is very desirable. Additional accommodation should be provided. Having had two very good years it is only natural that the demand in the coming year will be even greater.

The Minister for Health, Deputy Cluskey and Deputy P.J. Burke rose.

It is all right. I will let the Minister in.

There is another Deputy offering—Deputy Cluskey.

Then I will take my place. I am sorry that the Minister for Health has to take this supplementary estimate because he has had a very tough fortnight indeed. He is doing his colleague's work this morning and I hope the health of the Minister for Transport and Power will soon be back to normal.

I think we should have a House for Deputy Burke.

If this continues I will forget what I want to say.

It will give the Deputy time to think it up.

The Deputy is worthy of an audience.

Urbi et Orbi.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

There is a House now, Sir. I wonder how long this obstruction of the work of Dáil Éireann will last.

It is not obstruction.

A disgraceful remark.

In view of the Parliamentary Secretary's remark, would you, Sir, inform the Parliamentary Secretary that it is the duty of the Government to keep a quorum and there would be no obstruction if the Parliamentary Secretary ensured that there was a quorum here at all times?

That is his job.

A most impertinent remark on the part of the Parliamentary Secretary.

We have no monopoly of impertinence.

It was most impertinent—a damn piece of impertinence.

It is no harm to put on the record that there are only five members of the Labour Party here.

Mr. O'Leary

There is one-third of the Party here.

Order. Deputy Burke.

This supplementary estimate seeks an additional £500,000 to enable Bord Fáilte to pay development grants. This is a very laudable supplementary estimate. The earnings of our tourist industry in 1966 were £93 million, a big change in our time. As I have often said, great things have happened in our time.

This is one of the greatest of all as far as Bord Fáilte is concerned. Bord Fáilte has contributed in no small way to redressing our balance of payments position. The former Minister for Transport and Power and his predecessors before him were instrumental in the great advances made in our tourist industry. These are matters for rejoicing on the part of all who are true nationalists. We were told in 1945, when we were trying to get the tourist industry off the ground, that we were bringing in foreigners to eat our food and that the hotels we were building were white elephants. A great many of those who held that view at that time have changed their minds since. They have become more enlightened. Indeed, I saw them opening hotels a few years afterwards.

We look forward to an even greater future now. Hotel accommodation and guesthouse accommodation have increased enormously. It is important that our tourist industry should continue to expand and prosper. It is important that everyone should do his best to ensure that the tourist industry is not killed because of overcharging. This is the great danger. A country can price itself out of the market.

A few years ago when I was in a certain European country they were charging £7 for bed and breakfast in what I thought was not a very good hotel. These people have suffered as a result. One of the reasons why I am speaking this morning is to appeal to our people to realise that they should not kill the goose that is laying the golden egg. Tourism has contributed up to £93 million to our economy and it helps employment. Every hotelier and guesthouse owner must try to sell Ireland to visitors. I emphasise the necessity for people to realise that here we have something that can be developed in time to perhaps twice or three times its present magnitude. No matter what party is in power this is essential. The standard of our hotels has improved and I hope will continue to improve. I trust that the courtesy of staffs will be maintained.

Deputy Dr. O'Donovan said that we were getting what western Europe was getting and that people were travelling more nowadays. People will not travel if they do not get accommodation and service. There are certain countries that one visits and would like to see again; there are others that one does not want to see again. It depends very much on the impression a visitor gets.

I am delighted to see guesthouse and farmhouse accommodation being extended all over the country. I hope this will continue to expand because many people are anxious to avail of the opportunity it offers. A high standard should be maintained. I have heard favourable comment from Continental people who stayed in farm guesthouses and are coming back and bringing others. That speaks for itself. It is also important that transport personnel, the gardaí and even the people in the street should play their proper part in impressing on foreign visitors that they are welcome here.

We are aware of the excellent work that has been and is being done by Bord Fáilte but I hope the Minister will assure the House that the somewhat disturbing allegation made by Deputy O'Donnell is not well-founded. The allegation was that Bord Fáilte had entered into commitments for approximately £750,000, and on the basis of these commitments people went ahead with hotel building and extension of existing accommodation and now find they are not being paid as quickly as Bord Fáilte undertook to pay the grants. If that is true it is not good for the hotel business or the tourist industry because it would discourage future development.

Deputy Dr. O'Donovan mentioned that the Government claim that by their deliberate programme we have achieved rapid progress in our tourist industry. This implies that the Government are taking full credit for the position. I do not necessarily agree with that. If it is true I am sure the Government would concede that there have been outside factors over which they had no control also helping this development. Following this statement in the Minister's speech he referred to the situation in the north as being responsible for what appears to be the case that we will not reach our growth target of six per cent. If they claim all credit they must accept responsibility for the lack of growth this year, irrespective of whatever they may try to blame.

Bord Fáilte have a tendency to concentrate far too much on the American market. American tourists are welcome here and spend a good deal of money here and have helped our tourist industry considerably but our concentration on the American market has resulted in the neglect of a much nearer market which could be much more lucrative, the British market. The average American who comes to Ireland is, in many cases, fulfilling a lifelong ambition. These visitors are not, as some think, all millionaires and considerable financial sacrifice and saving are necessary to enable them to travel this great distance particularly if they come from the west coast of America, 6,000 miles away. They help considerably by occupying hotel accommodation but their spending money is very limited and most of it is spent in America before coming here. They come on package deals. They do not spend in our country as much money as does the average worker coming from Britain for a fortnight's holiday. We will get him year after year if we treat him properly, not just once in a lifetime.

We have neglected this market to our cost. Bord Fáilte should concentrate more on it. I had occasion to meet some employees of Bord Fáilte not only here but abroad and not as a Deputy but in another capacity and it should be said that the success which we have had is very largely due to the dedication of these people whom we do not hear about, whose names we do not know. They are the people in the field, having direct contact with travel agents and people like that. I was impressed by them. They have rendered and are rendering a very great service to this country by not just occupying jobs but by their genuine dedication to Ireland. This might possibly be because they are no longer resident in Ireland and feel that special attachment to the country which people not living here but from here have.

The question of prices has been mentioned on a few occasions. This is a very important factor. France which had a great tourist industry finds that they are tending to price themselves out of business and the same thing, but not to the same extent, is happening in other European countries. This is something we should be very conscious of. One of the great contradictions of the warnings issued by Government spokesmen concerning prices is prices at Dublin Airport. I asked a question here 12 months ago of the Minister responsible, who is the Minister standing in today. He assured me that the prices at Dublin Airport compared favourably with other places in the city of a comparable nature. I have since checked on this and I am convinced that prices in the restaurant at Dublin Airport are exorbitant. This could be one of the first impressions people get of our country when they arrive and go in to have a meal or one of the last impressions they get when leaving and find that they are, in my opinion, being rooked. This is something in which the Government have a direct say. The Minister responsible should look more closely into the prices in the restaurant at Dublin Airport.

I can only describe as hypocrisy one statement in the Minister's brief. At page 7 the Minister quite rightly states: "The discriminating visitor appreciates what we have to offer in Ireland..." One of the attractions we have got for a large number of people is our architecture, particularly in Dublin. We have this statement made by a Government Minister acknowledging that we have certain types of attractions for the discriminating visitor——

On a point of order. While I would be delighted to hear a full-scale debate on the tourist industry, this is a supplementary estimate purely for accommodation and if we are to have the maximum number of Estimates heard in this House it would seem very difficult to start a debate on the whole of the tourist industry.

By the time further Estimates are considered a lot of this architecture will be gone due to the action of your Government.

Restaurant prices do not arise on this supplementary estimate either. There is no grant by Bord Fáilte to the restaurant.

If I am asked to participate in the debate on a supplementary estimate giving £500,000 of the taxpayers' money to Bord Fáilte who are directly responsible for our tourist industry I most definitely will comment in the course of that debate on any aspect of Bord Fáilte. This is 50 per cent of their original Estimate.

The Deputy will appreciate that the supplementary estimate which is under the heading of subhead F. 3 is confined to an additional grant to defray the cost of schemes for the development of holiday accommodation.

The Minister referred to many of these matters in his own brief.

I am directly referring to statements in the Minister's brief.

What the Chair is pointing out is that the supplementary estimate is confined to a particular heading and that matters of general interest would arise on the ordinary Estimate for the Department. The supplementary estimate is confined to the provision of a sum for extra accommodation.

I am not challenging your ruling, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, but extra accommodation will only be necessary if we attract the tourists and if there is any action by the Government which, in my opinion, will discourage and not encourage people from coming here, I am entitled to comment on it on this supplementary estimate.

While the Government acknowledge when they are looking for £500,000 for Bord Fáilte that we have such a thing as a discriminating visitor a Government Department is in the process of doing away with two Georgian houses in Hume Street. This is a complete contradiction and a typical piece of hypocrisy. There are many types of visitors being directed to this country and I agree with the Minister that we have not got many of the attractions that other European countries have but, surely, it is not too much to expect the Government to ensure that the attractions we have are preserved and maintained particularly when they are in the ownership of a Government Department?

I should like to finish by saying that apart from the deliberate Government policy which the Minister said was responsible for all this success, there are other factors. One of them, which has been mentioned to me many times by visitors, is the natural courtesy inherent in our people and which impresses visitors going into shops, hotels, and so on. This is something to which the Minister might give some credit, apart from Government policy.

I thank the Deputies who spoke constructively on the subject of this supplementary estimate. I agree with Deputy Cluskey that the courtesy and kindness of our people is indeed to a very great extent responsible for investment in tourism promoted by the Government being successful and without it we would be nowhere. The personal attitude of hotel keepers and all who work in the industry is a continuation of that tradition and is absolutely essential if our tourist industry is to continue to grow. It is equally true to say that prosperity in the world around us has contributed to the growth of tourism. Nevertheless, we are competing with other countries. Competition is keen and promotional accommodation investment is absolutely essential.

I was glad to hear tributes being paid to the farm house owners who benefited from grants and who were setting a very high standard. Some English and American friends of mine who have stayed at these houses have been absolutely delighted. That grant of £100,000 is not the subject of this Estimate. It is a separate heading and I gather it is all being spent.

Reference was made to hotel investment in relation to the American and British market. From statistics we collect through issuing forms to travellers we find that the Americans are the largest spenders per head. That includes what they purchase in shops which, of course, is a very valuable contribution to industry. The British market is being looked after. There are very good staffs in a number of offices in Great Britain but I think that the original prediction by Bord Fáilte that the American market was likely to grow faster than any other has proved to be true. It will be accepted that the expenditure on promotional facilities has been fairly correctly estimated by Bord Fáilte during the past five years.

Deputy Tom O'Donnell spoke about this large estimate for hotel accommodation grants and suggested that there was bad planning. Of course, as the Deputy and the House know this is what might be described as an open-ended grant. The grant in any year is affected by circumstances outside official control. Credit decisions, planning decisions, progressive building and so on are taken into account. I must say that when I had the honour of being Minister for Transport and Power it was frequently difficult for Bord Fáilte or I to estimate how rapidly hotel development would escalate from the time of the credit squeeze in 1966 and early 1967 and the time that we were able to offer the increased incentives. It was extremely difficult to know in advance how many people would take advantage of the very much larger grants for new hotels or for the improvement of hotels in the west of Ireland because there was always the difficulty of securing functional business in the winter in the scattered areas of the countryside. In fact, the demand multiplied many times in the course of about 15 to 18 months and I do not think Bord Fáilte could have made any better prediction than they did.

The sum of £500,000 represents the figure required to enable Bord Fáilte to meet the inescapable commitments arising in the current year and this amount will be sufficient up to the 31st March, 1970, and the next provision will become available immediately afterwards when the Estimates are passed. It may be taken for granted that those requiring payment will be paid in full after, perhaps, some slight delay.

Deputy O'Donnell raised the question of the publishing of the details of hotel grants. By and large the hotel industry in Ireland is made up mainly of small family-type hotels. Seventyfour per cent of our hotels have 30 bedrooms or less and a further 17 per cent have between 30 and 60 bedrooms. Only 2.8 per cent of the hotels have more than 100 bedrooms. With regard to these small scale businesses it has always been considered preferable not to publish the names of the hotels and the grants given. Bord Fáilte apply objective criteria in operating the grant. The area is taken into account, whether it is remote or otherwise.

I am satisfied that these criteria are applied objectively. The present Minister has not been in office long enough to know this but during my time in office the number of complaints received from hotel keepers to the effect that they were being deprived of the correct amount of grant was very few indeed. Bord Fáilte take the greatest care in ensuring objectivity with regard to these grants but various factors have to be taken into consideration. The cost of improving one hotel may be quite different from the cost of improving another because of the different form of construction and so on.

I am glad to say that, although Deputies from the Opposition have quite rightly raised this matter and from time to time have put down questions asking that these grants be published, they have not continued pressing after they have had the answer from this side of the House. In other words, although they themselves would like to see the figures being published, it is quite evident from their reaction that they realise the difficulty with regard to this matter and so the present decision remains.

Deputy O'Donnell also raised the question of the Aerlínte investment in hotels. He dealt with this at very great length. It is obvious that the large capacity Boeing 747s will provide opportunities for greater increases in tourism so that there will be a need for block booking of hotel accommodation by Aerlínte. Five European airlines, including BEA and BOAC, have set up a joint company with banking participation to build hotels in principal European cities. I was very glad that Aerlínte decided to have what is a comparatively modest investment in hotels at the time they did. This form of investment is proceeding at a rapid rate throughout the world in relation to air companies and those concerned with hotel building.

Deputy O'Donnell also raised the question of OIE development. The company receive no special State assistance except whatever grants they may qualify for in the ordinary way from Bord Fáilte. No element of subsidy paid to CIE enters into the administration of OIE. OIE hotels could be sold on the public market for an enormous sum, but there is of course no intention that they should be sold. If one examines the accounts it will be seen that the profits are satisfactory and that they are reinvested in new developments. Nobody need think that OIE are competing unfairly with the rest of the industry. The company are a profitable undertaking.

Deputy Dr. O'Donovan referred to hotel prices. When I was the Minister responsible I went through about five hotel guides of Europe practically every year and made comparisons, some of them of hotels of which I had personal knowledge through my travelling, with hotels here and I found that the prices here were not excessive. When I last looked at this matter the Austrian prices were competitive, Spanish and Portuguese were slightly lower and with regard to all the rest, our prices were either competitive or very much lower. That is my memory.

I should like to back the Hotels Federation in their statement that hotel-keepers should do their utmost to maintain efficiency, to engage in work study. There is no danger of redundancy in employment if they engage in work study and help the staff to do their work more effectively. The result, of course, will be that the staff is less burdened by unnecessary movement of materials and so forth. Work study in the hotel business benefits in particular the staff; they are less exhausted and they work more effectively. This is one of the particular sources of work study that is most helpful to staff and, as I have said, there is no fear whatever of redundancy.

I hope everybody in this country who is charged an extravagent price for a meal or for a bedroom in an hotel will look at the Bord Fáilte hotel guide and make quite sure that the price is in accordance with the guide. If they feel they are getting bad value, they are helping this country if they write to Bord Fáilte and make a complaint. The complaint is investigated privately by Bord Fáilte. It does not mean that scandal will come to the hotel, but the complaint service of Bord Fáilte depends not only on foreigners who make complaints—they make hundreds of them every year about various matters quite apart from hotel prices—but we also rely on our own people for this. It will not do any harm to the hotel or the staff in the hotel if complaints are made by our own people when they think they are getting extremely bad value. The number of complaints received by Bord Fáilte is not excessive and they are very carefully investigated.

I think I have answered all the points in regard to this, and I am sure the House will agree with me when I say I hope the Minister for Transport and Power will be available on the next occasion to answer questions in the Dáil on this matter.

Vote put and agreed to.
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