Deputy Flanagan also raised the question of paying for the work performed by the prisoners. Deputies may not realise that one-fourth of a prisoner's sentence is remitted for industry and good conduct. The question of providing work for prisoners sufficiently productive to enable payment at ordinary rates to be made to them is not uncomplicated. It is understandable that in a situation of less than full employment there are reservations in some quarters with regard to industrial activity on any real scale in prisons outside of what might be regarded as therapeutic work. I have the rate of gratuity paid to prisoners under review at the moment.
Deputy Bruton covered a great deal of ground. He said he was not unappreciative of what has been done and is being done by my Department to bring about reform in this field. I welcome his approach. I expect the progress that has been made to continue, particularly on the probation and after-care side and in the efforts to rehabilitate those committed to our prisons. Anybody who has experience in this field will recognise the severe limitations that are imposed by the small number of prisoners, the short periods they spend there at any one time, the intelligence factor and lack of education of many of them. Apart from these limitations there is the effect of institutionalisation, living in a wholly artificial community, which militates always against the prospects of rehabilitation.
I could not deal with all the points made by the Deputy but I shall try to cover some of the main ones. Some of the points he made were quite interesting. I want to deal with the problem he mentioned of overcrowding. We have accommodation at present for slightly over 1,100 and we can take some comfort in the fact that, taking yesterday's figures, the total population in custody is 602. By and large, we are still in the happy position where our prisons are only half full notwithstanding the great number of them that have been closed through the years up and down the country. There was some overcrowding in St. Patrick's Institution last year but this problem seems to have resolved itself at least for the present. I checked yesterday and there were 187 detainees in St. Patrick's where officially there is accommodation for 229. I have already dealt with what Deputy Bruton said about Shanganagh and I have told him and the House that a figure of 50 or 60 is generally thought to be an ideal figure for an open institution. I gave reasons for this. The position is that the sort of individualised rehabilitation that we are trying in Shanganagh can best work with a number of the magnitude I mentioned.
I do not agree with the Deputy's views about visiting committees. Primarily, these committees are there to ensure that prisons are properly administered and prisoners properly treated. There is no necessity for such people to be competent in criminology or penology or any of the other sciences the Deputy mentioned. We want people of integrity with commonsense who will see that the prisoners are properly looked after and who will make suggestions as to what can be done with them or suggestions to improve the kind of work provided for them and who will ensure in particular that the food prescribed for them is served to them. We are fortunate in our visiting committees. I have every confidence in them. I have met them since I took office as Minister for Justice—I knew some of them before—and I know they are dedicated to the work they do. I know how public spirited they are, not alone in doing their duty as members of a visiting committee but in the personal interest that very many of them have taken in trying to provide employment for prisoners they know inside, and keeping up an interest in them when they leave the prison which, I suppose, we can broadly call after-care. Very useful work has been and is being done by these people. I do not know what would be achieved by having professionals of the type advocated on a committee of this kind. It is far better and more effective to get people who give their time, particularly business people who, perhaps, can provide employment themselves for some prisoners or can persuade their business friends to do so. This is the kind of person who is particularly needed if he is prepared to sacrifice his time in this great charitable work.
As regards compensatory education in St. Patrick's, that is, education which tries to compensate for the prisoner's lack of earlier education, the Deputy is pushing an open door as far as I am concerned. We have reached decisions as to how the process is to be organised with a psychologist to assess the individual needs of educationally-backward boys and to programme the particular instruction to be imparted and to co-ordinate the work generally. Instructors will be provided and, in addition, the services of student teachers from St. Patrick's Training College, Drumcondra, will be integrated in the new system. These students generously offered their services about a year ago. Pending the reorganisation of compensatory education in the Institution and their integration into it, they were asked to participate on an ad hoc basis. They have done this and it would be remiss of me not to acknowledge it and pay public tribute to them here for their interest and work.
I do not agree with what the Deputy suggests regarding the placement of prisoners in employment. There are two distinct factors here. One is the assessment of the person concerned as to the range of occupations for which he has an aptitude and the other is to find a vacancy for him in the employment sector indicated. The first task, I accept, gives scope for a psychologist and we shall have the psychologist in addition to the psychological services outside the prison which will be available as heretofore. The second task is for placement officers. At present most of this work is done by the welfare officers as part of their social work for prisoners. What is needed for the successful placement of an offender—or anybody else —is a knowledge of where the type of employment indicated is to be sought and also good relations with a wide range of employers and other placement services and, of course, an aptitude for the task.
The success of our existing welfare officers in the matter of placement discloses an expertise far in advance of the mere goodwill and enthusiasm which the Deputy mentioned. They have been quite successful.
The report on probation, prisons, welfare and after-care which I am considering at the moment deals also with staff training for the prison service. While the smallness of our services presents substantial difficulties we are trying to overcome them. There is no easy way out of this. These difficulties cannot be overcome nearly as easily as Deputy Bruton suggests. I should like to know what I should do about vacancies that arise in the prison service between the time they arise and Deputy Bruton's proposed entry date for recruits in the following April. We would have a big gap there and for the most obvious reasons, custodial reasons, posts must be manned and this results in staggered entry. In view of the small number of officers in the whole service, the withdrawal of a sizeable group at any one time to undergo special training could also create a very grave if not insurmountable difficulty. But we can have a look at the position.
As regards Deputy O'Connell's contribution about drug users in Mountjoy, I do not know what more can be done. I had instructions issued to Mountjoy and St Patrick's last October that drug users were to be put in contact either with the newly-opened clinic in Jervis Street or the unit in St. Brendan's even during the currency of their sentences if the resident medical officer considered that this would be beneficial. I am prepared to operate the temporary release provisions of the Criminal Justice Act, 1960, to facilitate this development in cases where the resident medical officer so suggests or advises.
