Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Feb 1970

Vol. 244 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Vote 41 — Transport and Power (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

—(Deputy T. O'Donnell).

Mr. T. O'Donnell

When I reported progress before the Christmas recess I had dealt at considerable length with various items in this particular Estimate. It is not my intention today to monopolise the time of the House, but there are one or two matters to which I must refer.

With regard to aviation development, we are all aware of the various attempts made by American airlines to gain admission to Dublin Airport. This subject, which had been dormant for some time, came very much to the forefront in the past few weeks. On January 24th, just a week ago, entirely unexpectedly and without any warning, we learned in the Irish Times that the United States airlines had renewed their application to obtain permission to fly into Dublin Airport. According to the Irish Times the United States government has been asked to debar Aer Lingus from using New York Airport unless American airlines are given reciprocal centers at Dublin Airport. The threat of retaliation came the previous day when the new chairman of the United States Civil Aeronautics Board said it was inequitable that Aer Lingus should be allowed to serve three American cities while American airlines could not use Dublin; Mr. Browne then went on to say that he thought the way to redress this was to deny the Irish access to one of the American cities while the subject was being discussed.

We are quite accustomed to these repeated attempts by the American airlines to obtain permission to land at Dublin Airport and on practically every Estimate for the Department of Transport and Power this particular topic has come up for discussion here but, for a few years, we had a rest from it, following the rejection of an application from the United States by the Government. What makes this new application peculiar is the fact that the chairman of the United States Civil Aeronautics Board has threatened punitive measures and retaliatory action against us if we refuse this new application. The alarming aspect is that, according to the American magazine Business Week the Civil Aeronautics Board have requested the Nixon administration to use economic muscle against the Irish. Apparently the recommendation of the CAB has been accepted and approved by the State Department and the matter has now gone to the White House for decision.

This is a very serious development and I am particularly glad to have this opportunity of raising the matter since I represent a constituency vitally interested in and concerned with aviation development and the welfare of Shannon. I may, of course, be accused of bias but, since the matter cropped up a week ago, I have made a careful study of the whole issue in its local context in Limerick and Shannon and from the point of view of the national economy as a whole. My reaction and the reaction of the vast majority to this announcement was that it is a scandalous state of affairs that the United States Civil Aeronautics Board, representing, as it does, the airline industry in one of the most powerful nations in the world, should recommend punitive action against a small country operating what is, possibly, the smallest scheduled airline on the transatlantic routes. It is still more distressing to find that the CAB recommendation has been approved by the State Department. The reaction to this is both positive and determined and feeling is running high. There is also an element of considerable surprise because, as yet, no statement has been issued by either the Government or the Minister directly responsible in this matter.

I read a newspaper report in the Irish Times a few days later on January 29th which stated that their air correspondent had contacted the Government Information Bureau and their reply was “No comment”. This was despite the fact that according to a report in the Irish Times on 29th January secret talks had taken place at very top level here between the Taoiseach, the Minister for External Affairs, the Minister for Transport and Power, the American Ambassador and, I presume, other American officials. It was purely by chance that we came to know that these discussions had been taking place.

I believe that there is an immediate obligation on the Government, and particularly on the Minister for Transport and Power, to spell out clearly and categorically where they stand on this issue now. I believe that there is also an obligation on the Minister to keep the House informed of any further developments that might arise. I do not like to read as I read last week, nor do the people for whom I speak like to read, of secret discussions taking place and newspaper reports on them, and the Government failing to issue statements on a matter which is giving rise to serious concern and causing undue anxiety and worry to hundreds and perhaps thousands of workers, people whose employment and livelihood are directly dependent on Shannon Airport and on tourism in the south and west of Ireland.

I just cannot understand, in view of this threat of using economic muscle, this threat of punitive action by a responsible official, the chairman of the Civil Aeronautics Board—and his action having the approval of the State Department—why the Government did not come out immediately and lash back in the same determined manner and tell Mr. Secor Browne, the CAB and the State Department, and Mr. Nixon if necessary, that even though we might be a small country with a small airline, this type of threat, this type of retaliation, this type of punitive action will not cut any ice in this country.

It is vitally essential that a statement should be issued clarifying the position as soon as possible. I want to make my position quite clear. I am not in any way implying—and I want the Minister to believe me when I say this—that there is any change of policy. I am not even implying that the Government are now changing their stand of a long number of years in relation to this issue.

I am concerned with the fact that the Americans are putting on the pressure, that they have issued threats and have fcenterened people and that the Government here have had private informal discussions which, according to one newspaper, were very friendly but, at the same time, no definite categorical statement was issued. I hope that when the Minister is replying to this debate he will state the case clearly and that he will reiterate the Government stand of previous years on this issue and that, if this debate has not terminated by tomorrow afternoon, in reply to questions which I have tabled he will clarify the matter. I am grateful to the Minister for signalling his intention to do that.

Mr. B. Lenihan

I will have a full reply tomorrow in answer to the Deputy's questions.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

Thank you. While the Minister has now indicated —and I am very pleased to learn it— that he intends to clarify the situation, I feel it is vitally important that this matter should be looked at in its proper perspective and that Members of this House should clearly understand the issues involved and should make their views known on this problem. This is not simply a matter of Shannon versus Dublin. It is not a purely local matter affecting the vested interests of the Shannon region. It is a matter which has vital and very serious implications for the whole national economy.

In recent years it was deliberate Government policy to develop the tourist attractions and amenities of the west and south-west of Ireland as a means of promoting economic development and saving the west. There is no doubt at all that tourism is recognised as being a key factor in the development of the west. As a result of deliberate Government policy in recent years considerable State expenditure was incurred in developing these amenities and attractions. Emphasis was laid on the development of amenities which would have special attractions for North American tourists. Due to the tremendous pioneering work of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company, Bord Fáilte and the regional tourism organisations down there, a good deal of very original and highly imaginative development has taken place. I need only mention the castle tours, the mediaeval banquets at Bunratty Castle and the development of the thatched cottage. These and various other schemes not merely in the mid-western region but throughout the west and the south-west have proved to be a very great means of attracting an increasing number of American tourists. Of course, the tremendous marketing work of Bord Fáilte and the Shannon Free Airport Development Company and our own national airline in the United States has proved very successful. The result of the development work and the marketing effort in the United States is that this year, when there were fears in the early part of the year of a reduction in tourist earnings, the Shannon region had an all time record in the number of tourists who came in there, the number of people who availed of the castle tours and attended the mediaeval banquets and so forth.

In all this development in the west and the south-west, Shannon Airport has played a key role and a very vital role. As our transatlantic air terminal it is also the natural gateway to the outstanding tourist attractions and the natural amenities of the west and the south-west. I recall the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Childers, on many occasions referring to Shannon as the gateway to the south and west.

This development of tourism along the western seaboard is desirable. It is a development with which we on this side of the House certainly agree. Anybody who has any doubt about that can read our policy document issued under the heading or rural development and the setting up of a rural development authority. It is one of the things we are very keen on. There is no doubt whatsoever that tourism is a key factor in the development and salvation of the west. Therefore, it is important that this policy of developing the west and the south-west should be continued and even accelerated to a greater degree.

This is why we view with alarm any indication of a change in Government policy or any suspicion or any action which we would fear might succeed in changing Government policy in relation to this matter. That is why the recent outburst by Mr. Secor Browne was received with such fear and alarm in the south and west of Ireland. Indeed, Mr. George O'Malley, chairman of the Mid-Western Tourism Organisation, put the whole thing very well when he said, as reported in the Irish Times of Thursday, January 29th, that it would be a disaster for the tourist industry if the Americans were allowed access to Dublin and that, if this happened, Americans would treat Dublin as just another capital city and spend about two days there before continuing their European tour. Under the present arrangements United States visitors stay a minimum of four to six days touring the country.

All the arguments are in favour of no change and the Americans must be told clearly and emphatically that there will be no change of policy. It is no harm, too, in view of the strong language of Mr. Secor Browne, to tell them that if they pursue this course of attempted punitive action it will give rise to a considerable wave of anti-American feeling in this country which would be a terrible tragedy as it would interfere with the very close and friendly ties which have linked our two countries for such a long number of years. I am confident that the Government will tell the Americans there will be no change and I am also confident that the American Government will not persist in what is nothing short of a deplorable course of action.

To get down to more detailed facts about this whole issue, I have already referred to the key role which Shannon plays in the development of tourism in the west and south west of Ireland and the vital importance of tourism to this part of the country. Having studied this matter and having tried to examine the American side of it as well, I see two main arguments being advanced in favour of granting permission to the Americans to fly into Dublin. The first is that if the American airlines get permission to go to Dublin this would lead to a considerable increase in the volume of tourist traffic to this country from North America. The second argument is that even if we allowed the American airlines into Dublin they would still have to touch down at Shannon on the way in and going out again and therefore there would be no question of overflying Shannon.

In regard to these two points, I have made extensive inquiries over the last week from people who are experts in the tourism field and who are in a position to furnish facts and statistics on this matter. There is no evidence to support the argument that the opening of Dublin to the American airlines would substantially increase the volume of tourist traffic to this country. I emphatically reject this argument and I challenge anybody to produce evidence that this is so. What could happen, as Mr. O'Malley of the Mid-Western Regional Tourism Organisation has pointed out, is that it could lead to a complete change in the pattern of American tourist traffic into this country.

The American's main interest in Dublin is to include it in their tours of the European capitals. This would mean two nights in Dublin and then on to London, Paris et cetera. By reason of the fact that there is agreement on a policy of decentralisation and development of the west and south-west of Ireland, the undeveloped areas, we have succeeded in developing a pattern of North American tourist traffic which has shown a considerable increase each year and all the indications are that it will continue to increase in the time to come. Therefore, I submit that a change in the pattern of the American tourist traffic would lead to an increase in the flow of people who do the grand tour of Europe and to a reduction in the number of tourists who are coming in now and who spend, on average, a week in this country. This would be a bad development and would have disastrous results.

In regard to the second point that American planes coming to Dublin would land at Shannon going in and going back again, this argument has been advanced again and again, and nobody is deceived by it. As sure as night follows day, if the Americans are allowed into Dublin with compulsory stops at Shannon either way, then it will be only a short time until they will be coming back and looking for the second concession, overflying Shannon. We do not accept that they should be allowed into Dublin even if they agree to land at Shannon, because in landing at two airports they would have to pay double landing fees which would tend to make the whole operation uneconomic.

The last time the Americans sought permission to come to Dublin it was to allow one airline to land, I think it was Pan American. This is only another way of trying to get entry; if we allowed one American airline into Dublin, then they would have an advantage over their American competitors and others would be knocking at the door. If permission is given to one, I cannot see how it can be refused to other American airlines.

Mr. Secor Browne in his recent statement has made great play of the concessions which the Irish airline gets in the United States. He says the Irish airline is allowed entry to three cities in the United States whereas the Americans are only allowed into Shannon. What Mr. Secor Browne forgets is that the American airlines have almost unrestricted pick-up and set-down centers between Shannon and the United States and between Shannon and any point in Europe. Already there are scheduled services between Shannon and Dusseldorf, Shannon and Geneva and others as well operated by the American airlines through Shannon; they can go into Shannon and pick up passengers for Continental destinations. The Irish airline, on the other hand, has no intercity pick-up centers in the United States. Our aircraft flying to New York, Boston and Chicago cannot pick up passengers in New York and take them to Boston or Chicago.

When the situation is closely examined it will be seen that the balance of the advantages in regard to concessions and centers is very much in favour of the Americans. Amidst all the silence at official level in recent days I was particularly glad to see a spokesman for one State company having the courage to come out and state the facts. I commend Mr. Noel Glesson of Aer Lingus for having put the facts clearly in so far as this new development is concerned. I quote again from the Irish Times of January 24th:

Mr. Gleeson said that he believed the balance of centers is in favour of the Americans at the moment. Aer Lingus use three United States airports but they are not allowed to service any of the three cities internally. On the other hand three United States carriers have the center to fly into Shannon and pick up passengers for any other foreign destination.

Mr. Gleeson added that the claim by the Americans that they are hard hard-pressed in regard to their operations into Ireland simply does not stand up.

It is welcome to read somebody immediately connected with the business who had come into the open. I am surprised that the Shannon Free Airport Development Company did not choose to make a statement on the matter. Therefore, the balance of the advantages is in favour of the Americans and Mr. Secor Browne's argument to the contrary certainly does not hold.

There is another point also that it is well to remember in regard to this issue. We are not trying to debar American visitors from going into Dublin Airport. United States visitors to this country landing at Shannon can get to Dublin city quicker and in a much shorter time than they can get from Kennedy Airport to downtown New York or from Healthrow to the city centre of London. The Shannon Free Airport Development Company made sure that any American tourist arriving in Shannon would be able easily, conveniently and quickly to get a connecting flight into Dublin.

There are other aspects of this whole question but that I want to say by way of conclusion is this: the Government in my opinion and, in fact, this House, have no option but to reject absolutely this latest attempt by the Americans to gain access to Dublin. There is, as I have said, an urgent need for a clear-cut and categorical statement by the Government rejecting all such moves. I sincerely hope that when the matter has been clarified officially and when a no-nonsense statement will have been issued by the Minister — I hope tomorrow — it will end all the doubt and uncertainty which tend to arise at frequent intervals as a result of the various efforts by the Americans to gain permission to come into Dublin.

I believe that the policy of developing the west and the south-west is the correct policy in so far as the tourist industry is concerned. I am bearing in mind also the fact that there has been substantial State investment in hotels and tourist centres and various other amenities in the west and south as well as considerable State investment in Shannon Airport itself and that it is vitally important and social justice demands and certainly the principle of decentralisation demands that far from doing anything that might slow down this development, every effort should be made to accelerate it. I believe that Shannon is the key to the development of the tourist industry in the south and west of Ireland and I sincerely hope that it will continue to be the policy of this Government and whatever government may be in power in the future to maintain Shannon as an international airport.

Further arising from this question and relevant to what I have been saying about the Americans and the question of going into Dublin Airport, may I say that at the moment extensive programmes of work are being carried out at Dublin and Shannon Airports to prepare them for the jumbo jets. I understand that a budget of £4 million has been allocated to Dublin and the estimated cost of development at Shannon is about £2½ million. Speaking on a previous Estimate for Transport and Power I made the point that, looking at the future of civil aviation in this country and in particular at the airport requirements of the future, I wonder whether we are wise in trying to keep two airports developed to cater for the larger aircraft, or whether we would have been better advised or would be better advised in future to develop the already recognised international airport, that is, Shannon and provide all the finance necessary to keep it in a position to cater for the larger aircraft, not merely the jumbo jet but the Lockheed aircraft which is now reaching production stage and will carry 900 passengers.

I believe the forecasts in the aviation industry indicate that by the end of the decade it is possible to envisage aircraft coming in carrying 1,000 visitors. This will give rise to colossal handling problems at airports. I am trying to avoid being parochial-minded about this. I would envisage Shannon developing further as a major international airport with a feeder service operating not merely to airports within this country such as Dublin and Cork and, perhaps, provincial airports now being established, such as in Castlebar and at Farranfore, but to points in Great Britain and on the continent of Europe.

I should like the Minister's views on this when he is replying. I am not in any way condemning the development work at Dublin Airport but I am slightly puzzled, and people have asked, whether we will be able to keep two airports abreast of development in aviation. Deputy Tunney has asked questions and expressed concern on a number of occasions about the problem of noise abatement at Dublin. With the larger and noisier aircraft, perhaps, it will be necessary in future to have a major international air terminal away from built-up areas and from there to have other aircraft feeding internal and external airports. Shannon is the obvious airport for such developments.

There is one other point I want to comment on. I suppose it is unfair to raise it now because I have a question down to the Minister about it and I had hoped that he would have had the opportunity of answering it before this debate. It is the recent announcement that Aer Lingus have made a further substantial investment in the hotel industry in this country. It is to the tune of, I think, £750,000. This represents the third major hotel investment by the national airline.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Not just in this country, in Britain as well.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

This is the third investment by Aer Lingus in the hotel industry — their investment in Intercontinental Hotels, in Ryans Tourist Holdings and now in the Kingsley Windsor Group. Is that correct?

Mr. B. Lenihan

Yes. The last one is in Britain and Ireland.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

This is a question of increasing State participation in the hotel industry, either directly or indirectly through the national airline. I do not like it.

Mr. B. Lenihan

The latest one is mainly in Britain.

Mr. Donegan

Jury's and a bit of the Shelbourne.

Mr. B. Lenihan

No, the Russell and the Hibernian are in the Kingsley Windsor Group.

Mr. Donegan

I am not too well acquainted with those premises. I get them mixed up.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

Anyway, the Minister will have to answer questions before he replies to this debate. I spoke for a considerable time on this before Christmas and I do not want to monopolise the debate. The point I want to make is that I would much prefer to see the State assisting the hotel industry by the setting up of a financial institution similar to the Agricultural Credit Corporation and the Industrial Credit Company which would enable private enterprise, small hoteliers, to expand and in particular assist our managers to set up on their own but who are unable to do so because of the lack of proper financial facilities. There is a grave danger that unless the Government make provision in this direction — and I would remind the Minister that the establishment of such a financial institution has been repeatedly called for by the people in the hotel industry——

Mr. B. Lenihan

It is there already.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

We have a pool of highly-trained managers, many of them produced by the school at Shannon, who would like to set up on their own. They will get a grant from Bord Fáilte——

Mr. B. Lenihan

And loans.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

These are not adequate. Because of the fact that tourism now is a major national industry on a par with industry I believe it merits the financial services which are available to industry. I have no doubt —and I have discussed this with quite a number of people—that if proper financial assistance and incentives were provided by the Government private enterprise could go a long way towards meeting and keeping pace with the accommodation requirements of the tourist industry.

I should also like to see some type of machinery set up which would make it possible for groups of small hoteliers to co-operate and to work as a group. Otherwise a monopolistic trend can develop. One of the arguments put forward for Aer Lingus's investment in Ryans was that it would provide a chain of reasonably priced hotels strategically placed throughout the country. I believe that if private enterprise was properly assisted and if the hotels in various strategic points were grouped and facilitated in co-operating they would provide the bulk of the accommodation needs of the tourist industry. I certainly want to see top priority in future hotel development given to assist existing hotels to expand and to enable the small guesthouse owner to develop and expand his premises and to enable people who are highly trained, particularly hotel managers, to set up in business on their own.

I am glad to see the Minister back. He was ill during some of the debates we had before Christmas. I am very glad he is back and I hope he is completely recovered.

Mr. Desmond

My colleague, Deputy Dr. O'Donovan, has flu and he has asked me to deal with this for him. In doing so I want to say that we can now appreciate that Deputy O'Donnell is a Limerick Deputy. The only comment I would make is that notwithstanding the anxiety of PanAm to get into Shannon and to Dublin there is the reality that that particular airline lost something like $19 million last year. We can see the tremendous pressures that are developing on the American scene, the tremendous excess capacity which now exists in the airline industry which most certainly does not seem like flattening out until the mid-seventies. Hence the new pressures which have commenced.

I also welcome the Minister back to the House and thank him for and congratulate him on his detailed speech and on the comprehensive supplementary notes which he has made available to Deputies. These, I can assure him and his Departmental staff, are extremely valuable to all Members of the House. However, I should like to temper my commendation by stating that there still appears to be a peculiar vacuum in respect of the Department of Transport and Power both within the Cabinet and within the Estimates themselves. It is true that this Department plays a major and growing role in the economy, a role which in many respects is on a par with that of the Department of Industry and Commerce, a role of tremendous growing importance in the economy on a par with many senior Departments of the Government. There appears to be almost a total absence in many respects of what I would call a national transport and power policy in the country. Instead we have had as each development has emerged a series of ad hoc responses to various issues from the Government. I propose to illustrate some of these anomalies as I develop my comments.

Nowhere is the vacuum and the lack of general national policy on transport and power questions more evident than in the national attitude towards the national transport system. We have now reached a stage where we see tragic daily waste of lives on the roads —Deputy Sweetman's death and the Taoiseach's comments on Deputy Sweetman's tragic death brought it home to us—and the growing discomfort in many of the major urban areas for people going to and coming from work. We see the paralysis in some parts of Ireland on our trunk roads. We can see planning chaos in many of our towns and cities because of the lack of a national transport strategy on the part of the Government. Ministers for Transport and Power tend to gravitate to other Ministries without ever coming to grips with the problems of transport during their term of office.

I should like to advocate a transport plan for the country. I think it is about time the Department of Transport and Power issued a White Paper on the subject. I do not recall ever seeing such a White Paper from the Government. Britain, with its growing industrial development, has tremendous transport problems and I think we could usefully follow a good deal of their developments, both in terms of policy, and in terms of Cabinet attitude to the Department of Transport and Power. In the early 60s we had the Pacemaker Report and since then we have had many other reports, all of which contain references to anomalies developing in our transport system, but so far the Government have not emerged with a clear-cut transport policy. There is no reference in the Minister's statement to the modernisation of public transport. I do not see any great developments in the area of bulk carriage in terms of rapid and cheap transportation. The developments made by CIE are welcome but they have occurred without a great deal of Government impetus. In urban areas the Government have not taken any steps in an effort to solve the problem. I refer in particular to Dublin and Cork where private car transport has become a major problem. The family car is one of the greatest liberating assets yet known to urban dwellers. Ironically, it is one of the greatest dangers to the ordinary civilised working of an urban community. It is time the Government got to grips with the problem. It is all very well for the Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Transport and Power to say that Dublin city stopped on the 24th October, 1969, because we had traffic chaos, but it is running again now and everything will be all center. The population in the greater Dublin region is 800,000 at the moment and it has been forecast that by about 1983-85 the population will be in the region of one million people. In a report in the August, 1969, publication issued by the Economic and Social Research Institute called: "Transport and the Developing Economy in Ireland" John Blackwell forecasts that by 1980 there will be 789,000 private cars, an increase of 250 per cent over the 1967 figure of 314,000. This twin growth in the population and the motor car requires great attention by any Minister for Transport.

The carless sector of the population have become, what one might almost call, an underprivileged minority in the community. This section of the population could virtually become, as they have in America and Britain, discriminated against if the Government do not give increased attention to the need for a public transport system in the country. I think the Minister should form a group of representatives from the Garda, the Department of Local Government, Dublin County Council Dublin Corporation and CIE to co-ordinate and integrate all forms of transport in the country. Unfortunately road programmes have been developed without being integrated properly into an overall transport policy. It is no longer a question of spending money on roads but a question of co-ordination of transport itself. The Minister should, therefore, exercise his judgment and the undoubted energy, ability and initiative he possesses before this assumes critical proportions and before the daily frustration of traffic and public waste in Dublin develop unduly.

I should like to deal with road transport itself. I know the Minister for Local Government is responsible and I hope that when the Devlin Report is vitally implemented he will no longer be formally responsible and that the Minister for Transport and Power will assume responsibility or, indeed, that we shall have a Minister for Transport. I note that in a sort of way the Minister has a direct involvement in respect of the growth of bulk containerisation and transport on the major road arteries. In Britain a Transport Act was introduced in 1968 to ensure generally the proper safety of professional lorry drivers. A situation is now developing here that with the massive articulated bulk carrier trucks growing in number, in which a serious safety problem which should be the joint responsibility of the Minister for Transport and Power and the Minister for Local Government and should not be the sole prerogative of any one Department, is emerging.

One must be critical of the number of private hauliers who do not comply with statutory regulations in respect of transport haulage, critical in the sense of driver-safety which is becoming a problem, critical in the sense that a fair number of drivers, some of whom are not in trade unions, work on the lump in terms of driving. There is nothing more dangerous than a driver who is grossly overtired and who may be half-asleep at the wheel having done 12 or 14 hours driving. One may find oneself with such a driver bearing down on one with 20 tons behind him. I suggest there is urgent need to review a good deal of the legislation and bring it in line particularly with that operating in Britain.

In Britain the maximum permissible length of a driver's working day is being reduced from 14 hours to about 11 hours. The number of hours which the driver may spend at the wheel out of the 11 will eventually be reduced to nine hours. Special arrangements will be made for drivers on general emergency work. It is, therefore, necessary that new restrictions should be contemplated by the Minister and should be introduced with the utmost urgency.

Arising particularly from Deputy O'Donnell's comments with regard to Aer Lingus, I think the House should fully appreciate the very considerable pride which we have as Irishmen in the emergence in our economy, out of the tremendous strivings we have made over the years for real political independence in terms of having an independent communication system, of Aer Lingus which has developed with great vigour and achieved one of the highest standards of efficiency and good service in the country as a whole. It is a matter of considerable pride to us and particularly to those who advocate the growth of State-sponsored organisations that this achievement has been accomplished within the infra-structure of State-sponsored development which people are so often so ready generally to criticise. I think we have underestimated this development and, perhaps, the Government and the Ministers may sometimes have been unduly reticent in proclaiming the tremendous development that has taken place. I am conscious that some ten years ago the entire annual public capital programme was less than two-thirds of the £70 million capital investment of Aer Lingus itself at this point of time.

The development, therefore, has been massive on the part of Aer Lingus. Because of the small size of the Irish population and our home market it was a particularly challenging objective for Aer Lingus to emerge with a top international airline ranking, having regard to the tremendous difficulties it faced and also when it is, as we know, rather a shorthaul airline by European standards and an airline which had to face the Atlantic with immense competition. In the circumstances it has done extremely well. In 1968-69 it carried 1,205,000 passengers within Europe and carried 236,000 over the Atlantic earning a combined operation profit of £1,753,000.

This is a tremendous growth rate and the Government are to be commended. It is fashionable in these benches not to give credit in some respects where credit is very much due but I think great credit is due to Irish Governments over the years and to the Irish taxpayers for investing some £13½ million, up to last year, in this company and then increasing the permanent capital of the company by a further £15 million representing an increase in the State equity holdings of something like £10 million in addition to the interest-bearing non-repayable investment of £5 million given also by the State.

There is a major national State investment in Aer Lingus and it is of the utmost importance that the operational position of the company be kept under continuous review by the Government. Something like 80 per cent of Aer Lingus passengers pay their own fares. As such, it is a rather volatile type of international airline. In Britain about half BEA people pay their own fares the other half coming from the company's infra-structure, payments by Departments and so on. In America, the percentage is about 40 who pay their own fares. Therefore, if there are any marked internal inflationary or disinflationary pressures within the Irish economy that figure can react quite sharply particularly as —I would stress this strongly in the House—we now seem to be in the initial stages of American depression or at least recession, perhaps, not a serious one; its magnitude has not been fully assessed yet but it is there and I would think that with a tremendous State investment of something in the region of £70 million in Aer Lingus we should keep a very close eye on State investment in this company.

I am rather intrigued at the request made with great sincerity by Deputy O'Donnell that we should support the rejection by Aer Lingus of any American overflying to Dublin. The House will appreciate that I would be somewhat reluctant to comment on the affairs of Limerick generally or of Shannon, but I can assure the Deputy and also my colleague, Deputy Coughlan, that they have my full support on this issue. Indeed, I would support what I would call the policy of Aer Lingus rather than provincial politics as such. I support the policy of the company because they are in the position best to assess the major problem that this new threat poses. With PanAm now having 25 jumbo jets and having lost 19 million dollars last year they are naturally going to put enormous pressure on the Irish Government in order to raise their general excess capacity. This is a case of what is best for Aer Lingus. Apart from saying that—possibly I would be bringing a reaction on myself if I said much more—I must confess that when one reads the Limerick Leader advocating that certain persons who advocated support for this question or that should be “crushed” to use the editor's word, one's sympathy tends to evaporate.

While there have been tremendous developments in airline technology it is well worthwhile asking for what purpose is this tremendous explosion in terms of jumbo jets, Aer Lingus investment and so on. I brings home the comment made by the deputy general manager of Aer Lingus, Arthur Walls, in a supplement to the Observer a few weeks ago, that the very success of our aircraft technology tends to obscure the growing and glaring deficiencies in the other parts of the transportation system. Our primary vehicles are little short of miraculous compared with their predecessors and there is little doubt that the aircraft of the '80s will be faster, more comfortable and much safer than today's aircraft but will the traveller have a better door-to-door journey and are there any indications that it will cost him less? Regretfully I am afraid the answer is “No”. The point I am making is that the 1970 passenger will not travel any faster, will pay no less and may well have his increased in-flight comfort offset by the all too familiar discomforts on the ground. It is in this area, in terms of Aer Lingus' well-known reliability in meeting schedules, their warmth of reception for passengers—particularly those who pay—that Irish transportation can score in future developments.

I should also like to comment on the proposal that Aer Lingus might, as a number of European airlines have done, offer some percentage of their capital for general public offer and particularly to international financial institutions. I have no undue doctrinaire reaction to this but I would strongly suggest that Aer Lingus should have a substantial majority State holding, in the region of 75 to 80 per cent. In view of the fact that Aer Lingus will be very much involved by the middle of the 1970s to the order of some £100 million to my mind in terms of capital investment they may need this supplementary form of capital without in any way mitigating national control over the airline particularly bearing in mind that the company are now diversifying a good deal of their activity into the tourist trade. The company have to do this if they are to place the people whom they have brought into the country, somewhere in the country. The Minister might comment on this aspect because with the tremendous restrictions on the country's capital programme at present I should not like to see Aer Lingus getting into difficulties.

With the Minister's stress on Aer Lingus one tends to do an injustice to other State bodies particularly to that other company, the ESB, which has grown so substantially. Only when I read an article by Tom Murray, the Chairman of the board, in Business and Finance last December, did I realise the tremendous growth the company has experienced in the last ten years. When one lives with the company in a trade union capacity one tends to ignore this growth. It should be placed on record that at the end of the last decade the ESB had 22 generating stations while today they have 26; at the end of the last decade their generating capacity was 688 megawatts and that has now increased to 1,290 megawatts. In 1959 there were some 611,000 consumers while today there are 750,000. Over that ten years, consumption has doubled from something like 2,000 million units a year to 4,500 million units a year, which is fantastic, and something about which we can feel justifiably pround in terms of better standards of living and the raising of standards generally, and which is impressive by any European criteria.

I feel that there are exciting opportunities open to the board. I will not be worried if the Minister gives them the go-ahead to diversify and expand as they have done, even on the refrigerator market. They have as much center to sell fridges as have PYE who make them for them. On that basis we should have less of a rigid private enterprise-cum-public enterprise re-action. It has been to the credit of industry that we have been able to blend such companies as Unidare in with the ESB in terms of producing work for them and so on. Therefore, I would hope that the ESB in its general work would not be unduly circumscribed. I should also like to point out that while the Minister has my sympathy there is also considerable concern among many consumers in regard to their bills. I am one of the 750,000 consumers who has not paid his ESB bill for the past couple of months.

Mr. B. Lenihan

I wish you would settle that one.

Mr. Desmond

While I have no doubt I will receive the bill in due course it is a rather sorry commentary that we have entered 1970 with the ESB once again "up to their tonsils" in another internal dispute. The Minister should give very special attention and devote a good deal of his time, together with the Minister for Labour, to the number of special inquiries which seem to proliferate in his Department for one reason or another.

We have had CIE, ESB and Bord na Móna inquiries. It would have been valuable had there been in the Minister's speech some indication as to what has happened to the many recommendations into the need, for example to develop joint consultation within CIE and the need to develop some better staff consultative machinery internally in the board of the ESB. This is something which would improve industrial relations which have caused a great deal of serious disquiet down through the years. Aer Lingus has happily been exempt but, in the case of the ESB, there is need for a closer analysis of its record of industrial relations.

I do not profess any special knowledge in regard to tourism. However, I believe we have underestimated what has taken place. Undoubtedly, by 1980, we will have something like 250,000 employed in the tourist industry. At the moment there are about 200,000 engaged in manufacturing industry. At the end of this decade I hope we will have 350,000 engaged in manufacturing industry. If that is the evolution the Irish economy will be on the point of breaking even from the point of view of absorbing our natural growth in population. What has occurred in the tourist industry is quite dramatic and congratulations are due to Bord Fáilte for the tremendous work it has done. It is very easy to be critical and there are aspects of tourism about which one can be extremely critical. Nevertheless, the work done by Bord Fáilte over the years has been in the front line of industrial development generally. There is one disability we should try to overcome. I find a peculiar reaction towards tourism as such, particularly from those in political parties. One gets the impression that tourism is a parasitical industry, turning the country into a nation of west of Ireland bellhops, in terms of industrial development, and the contribution it makes is regarded as grossly inferior, much less stable, and, therefore, to be decried in comparison with normal industrial development. I find this kind of provincialism in Irish political attitudes quite disturbing. It is an attitude that should be denounced. I do not like using the word "denounced" because so many are denouncing so many others. One has to be careful in one's choice of words.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Desmond

Bernadette Devlin is quite a tourist attraction herself in many respects. We want to see a strong, viable, effective tourist industry. I have no doubt whatever that in the years ahead tourism will emerge as a major factor in the Irish economy. The statement made by Dr. Tim O'Driscoll, the director-general, that for every £ spent in hotels and guesthouses, including the money spent on meals and drinks and the actual cost of accommodation, it is estimated that the average tourist spends £3 10s elsewhere, is worthy of being recorded here; accordingly, it pays the community to subsidise the building of new accommodation which yields a return out of all proportion to what it yields to the private investor in hotels. This is a very important aspect. However, having got the tourist to come here, we should not then proceed to fleece them or put on for them a rather expensive version of Irish culture.

I confess I am somewhat perturbed by the Bunratty style culture and by some of the more offensive manifestations of what is alleged to be Ireland's historical past. I am not opposed to gimmicks, but they should not be regarded as an authentic exposition of either Ireland's current or past culture. They must be put in their proper perspective. I do not take any particular pride in bringing tourists into Ireland's rural past in terms of lack of sanitary facilities, unhygienic, unlighted, miserable cabins, in which undoubtedly our forefathers had to live. My own father, like the fathers of many other here, was reared in these, but we cannot look back on these conditions with any great pride. We are not ashamed of our past, but digging up a kind of rustic poverty-stricken culture does not, in my opinion, do anything from the point of view of Ireland's national heritage. If I sound somewhat defensive in that I do not apologise for that. Frankly, I find the whole thing distasteful, just as distasteful as the sale of Hong-Kong souvenirs of Killarney. We have a great deal to show tourists, particularly in the west of Ireland.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Desmond

One can have these reservations without being destructively critical of current tourist development.

I want to deal now with the maritime aspects of transport and power. I come from a constituency which has a port, though that port has never been given adult status. It has never had its own authority, but we hope to remedy that defect. There is no reference in the Minister's speech to the practicability of using hovercraft or hydrofoils on the B and I complex. There was an inquiry by the Minister's predecessor into that particular development. Is the result of that inquiry available? This is a development of which we must take sharp note because, if we do not do so, we will be left far behind. This would be quite dangerous in terms of Irish maritime policy.

The Minister also referred to the B and I company having been exploring with British Rail for some time past the possibility of rationalisation of the cross-Channel cattle shipping business. The only comment I would make on that is that we should be quite sure that British Rail do not succeed in that effort, that they do not succeed in keeping the B and I out of the more lucrative traffic. The Government should resist any attempt by British Rail to muscle in on the more competitive and more lucrative aspects of the work done by the new State-sponsored body, the B and I.

The Minister also referred to Irish Shipping Limited. He referred to having a fleet large enough to meet the country's basic strategic needs. I would ask for a definition of what the Irish strategic needs are in that context because I am afraid this is a throw-back to some previous ministerial speeches.

Mr. B. Lenihan

They have gone commercial now.

Mr. Desmond

Yes, but I think "Irish strategic needs," needs a good deal of definition at this point in time. For example, we have no Irish tankers. If Irish Shipping were in that position, we have not got anything to bring oil into the country. We will hardly go back to having our turf-burning cars again.

The Minister referred to Irish Shipping earning valuable foreign currency abroad and said that the company can, therefore, be regarded as the equivalent of an export industry. I would strongly agree with the Minister and I would also praise this company. I would point out that the company introduced an extremely effective and comprehensive internal industrial training scheme which has acted as a model for many foreign shipping companies.

Mr. B. Lenihan

That is very true.

Mr. Desmond

They deserve the highest commendation. I think this was left out of the Minister's speech inadvertently. He has referred to it in other contributions but I think it should be placed on record here.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Hear, hear.

Mr. Desmond

I should also like to ask the Minister if Irish Shipping have not adopted some kind of ambivalent policy in respect of tanker ownership. There is a peculiar reticence here. They should be explicit about the policy of the company in that regard. If we are to have a development, which we will have in Ireland, of tremendous consumption of oil and petrol, an increase of something like 100 per cent over the next ten years it is very important to ensure that the international oil monopolies and the flags of convenience fleets, which, incidentally, as the Minister is aware, have the highest incidence of disaster and the highest incidence of accidents——

Mr. B. Lenihan

It is a very tough game.

Mr. Desmond

It may be tough but we do not want a Torrey Canyon on a flag of convenience off the cost of Ireland. I fully agree with the Minister that it is a rather competitive and highly difficult trade for Irish Shipping to become deeply immersed in but, nevertheless, it is a major growth area and if we are to finish up in Ireland with some 800,000 cars consuming a tremendous amount of petrol and oil I have no doubt that with the growth of industry in Ireland we should be investigating that very valuable area of the ocean carriage of oil. Otherwise our national independence will tend to be diminished. This would not be desirable.

I would also ask the Minister if he would investigate the possibility of Irish Shipping contemplating another car ferry. In my opinion the time is ripe again. This is an explosive development and I should like to see another car ferry being built by the company. I would strongly urge this, possibly to the continent for all the year round general operation. The time is propitious and it would be very useful here.

A disturbing aspect of the Minister's comments on maritime matters is that, on my assessment from previous Dáil questions, there appears to be a rather serious decline in the number of ships and in the number of men employed on the coastal and the cross-channel and the near continental services, particularly in the rather smaller coastal services. We seem to be in the position of having rather undue dependence still on UK carries. I would certainly hope that the Minister would encourage Irish business concerns and State-sponsored bodies to get together and acquire more Irish ships of a coastal carrier nature.

It is not unfair to say that something like four-fifths of the cross-Channel trade and something like nine-tenths of the near continental trade is all carried under foreign flags. I think this is not an unfair statistic. If we are to have a major development, I see nothing wrong with diversifying and expanding and giving greater scope to Irish Shipping Limited and to the B and I to become very much more deeply immersed in that approach.

I would equally suggest that in many respects we have lost golden opportunities in respect of containerisation. I am very conscious that ports such as Rotterdam have tremendous experience of containerisation and I think they have gone ahead at a far faster rate of growth. They have shown themselves to be much more adaptable and much more forthcoming. It is a matter of regret that we in Ireland have not availed of that explosive maritime development on an international basis.

A forecast published recently by the Port of New York Authority which, as the House knows, is a Federal agency in America, predicts that from 40 per cent to 75 per cent of many types of cargo can and will be in the future fully containerised. We also had a prediction by Sir Donald Anderson, the head of the shipping group and partner in the overseas consortium container group, of the growth of new super container ships with 50,000 and 75,000 ton capacities. He foresaw an impact which would radically alter world trade routes. He said the cost would be quite large, the stakes would be large, the dislocations would be large and the labour problems would certainly be large unless generous measures of compensation and redundancy payments were brought into operation.

The OECD predicted very emphatically that by the end of 1969—I am quoting from November, 1969, journal in respect of the transport union in England—container carrying capacity for the world as a whole would have increased by something like 40 per cent over 1968. That shows a tremendous increase. Indeed, all the reports to date indicate that containerisation is very much on the way. I am conscious that in Ireland with the tremendous doubling, indeed, almost trebling, of imports and exports over the past ten years, from something like £330 million to £850 million in terms of imports and exports, there is a very considerable need for greater Government involvement and greater Government consideration of the whole question of containerisation. I do not think we can leave it to chance or to particular companies.

This brings me to an aspect which I have advocated before and which I wish to press strongly on this occasion, namely, the setting up of a national ports authority. Rather like Cardinal Conway in another context, I would not shed any tears if the Dublin Port and Docks Boards were abolished. I have some regard for the Cork Harbour Board, but perhaps I am slightly prejudiced in that regard. However, it is time Dublin, Dún Laoghaire, Waterford, Cork and Limerick Ports were amalgamated and rationalised. Dublin and Cork carry the vast majority of the country's trade, handling roughly 5½ million tons each. Limerick and Waterford ports would carry about three-quarters of a million tons. If Dún Laoghaire is added to that, we could develop a national ports authority which would rationalise a great deal of urgent capital investment. This would apply particularly to the development of containerisation in these ports. Therefore I would urge the Minister to consider this proposition. This has now happened in most of the continental countries. It has certainly happened in Britain where there is a national ports authority.

In the Minister's statement there is inadequate reference to harbours, and one is entitled to ask the Minister what overall plans he has in mind for port development and port co-ordination. One must ask him if he is not dooming to death some ports such as Wexford. If so, he ought to let us know. The Minister's speech contains no reference to the future of the western ports, particularly Galway and Sligo. The Minister should agree that an up-to-date coastal survey of a general nature is essential before we can assess the modern potential of many of our ports.

Again in relation to the section on harbours, the Government should reconsider their decision in respect of the Bantry/Whiddy Island terminal complex. I still think a harbour board is essential in that development. The Gulf Oil consortium struck a bargain which on balance was very much in their favour; they are paying only £25,000 a year rental to the State. However, the local authority on its managerial staff have people of considerable competence and I have every confidence that there will be devolved on them full authority to make sure that no major difficulty in relation to pollution for conservation will arise. There is also the important consideration that at a future date it may be necessary to bring in extra revenue to the State from this international multimillionaire company which, when it can afford such as super technical development, can well afford to pay Ireland a little more than she is getting at the moment. Admittedly this company is giving very welcome employment, but I do not think we should be unduly apologetic in connection with this development. I would urge the Government to reconsider its policy in this matter.

The information contained in the Minister's statement in relation to air/ sea rescue is rather scant. I am reluctant to think what might happen if there was a jumbo jet air-to-sea descent with hundreds of passengers off the coast of Ireland, with rescue depending on a corvette rounding the coast of Donegal. I notice that in previous Dáil questions it has been said that there are regular co-ordinated air/sea rescue exercises off the east coast. I am assured by those directly involved, particularly the lifeboat service, that there are no such exercises, no such communications between Aer Lingus and the Department and the lifeboat authorities. I might say that this in no way reflects on the Aer Lingus authorities, but I think departmental statements have not been totally frank in this regard.

Even though we do not have our own lifeboat service we should still place on record a tribute by the Irish people to the Irish Lifeboat Service—I suppose we can put "Royal" in brackets. It should be borne in mind that we have the benefit of this service at no cost to the Irish taxpayer and it is there because there are Irishmen who are prepared to devote themselves with very considerable heroism to marine safety. Therefore the Minister should at least thank them for the work they are doing on behalf of the nation.

In the Minister's speech there is a statement made that an interdepartmental working group was set up to study the experience gained as a result of the Torrey Canyon disaster and to indicate what measures would be necessary here to deal with a similar situation. It is stated that the group have completed their work and the report is now being carefully examined in the Departmental with a view to formulating policy. I love the way we in Ireland, when we want to formulate policy, set up a working party which proceeds to receive reports, which then formulates its own particular viewpoint, which then proceeds to communicate with the Minister, who then formulates his own policy, who then communicates with the Cabinet who again formulate policy; then the matter comes before the House and we formulate an emasculated policy. Why should this report not be published and be made available to the House? There may be some confidential consultancy comments in it but they could be deleted. In any case there is no such thing as confidential documents in this country. This report should be circulated to the Members of the House. It is of considerable importance that the House should be able to consider this in the context of the growing problem of pollution.

The general manager of CIE, Mr. Frank Lemass, suggested for consideration by the Minister that it might well be a useful and necessary exercise if there were differentiated transport charges where there are regional economic disparities, particularly the west of Ireland. There might be some formal Government statement of policy whereby CIE would charge differentiated freight rates, particularly for industrial development and thus make a contribution towards regional economic development. I would strongly urge the Minister to consider that proposal which strikes me as being eminently reasonable, eminently feasible and I do not think any industrialist could do an enormous fiddle by it in terms of transfer subsidy. CIE is not just a social service. It could make a contribution to industry.

I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to see if we could have some comment from the Minister as to when the legislation relating to the County Donegal Railways and CIE is likely to be introduced. I am particularly concerned about the legislation relating to the rationalisation of the County Donegal Railways. These railways operate their own freight service and passenger service under the auspices of the Galway manager. There is anxiety on the part of many employees of the CDR operating road services and in the garage that their employment should be safeguarded. There is need for legislation to be introduced here, in Westminster and possibly in Stormont. I do not want to see these workers deprived of the benefits of CIE pensions and welfare schemes in the interim period because of the partition of the country. I would seriously ask the Minister to give some indication as to when these schemes will be applied to CDR employees pending the passage of the necessary legislation.

To conclude on, perhaps, a controversial note, I am also concerned about some of the allegations made from time to time in regard to CIE. I am sorry Deputy Dowling is not here because he is a person who would be very vociferous in connection with the engineering workshops. There is cause for concern about some of the allegations made about the system of internal promotions and the criteria used in evaluating personnel promotions within the organisation. I have no formal evidence but I have met a number of disappointed applicants who have made allegations. One must not make light of such allegations. I mention this more particularly because there is and there has been more particularly in the past very close connection between senior management personnel of that company and the party in power. Whether it is in regard to promotion to inspector or any other promotion within the hierarchy of the company, political considerations should not be one of the influencing factors. Where candidates are allegedly equal, it should not be an influencing factor in promotion, as has been alleged from time to time.

My suggestions to the House and to the Minister in that regard is that more information should be made available to candidates, not necessarily to public representatives. The company should do what Aer Lingus most certainly do, and I have evidence of this as a trade union officer. Letters from Deputies and Senators and others making representations are promptly put in the waste paper basket and the candidate involved is informed immediately that he is no longer considered worthy of even being on the application list. CIE employ 20,000 people, with massive political ramifications. It should be clearly seen that where, for example, conductors and drivers go for promotion to inspector, the matter in which they failed should be made public or made available and if possible marks in the subjects and the areas in which they failed should be available. More information should be available to the candidates so as to avoid disquiet.

These are some of the points I make on this Estimate in the absence of our party spokesman on the Estimate, Deputy John O'Donovan. I have no doubt that in the next four years, assuming the remains in that post over that period, the Minister will bring in a good deal of progressive legislation in what I regard—I do not think some members of the Cabinet entirely agree with me—as one of the most important and one of the major growth centres of Cabinet responsibility, namely, the Department of Transport and Power. I wish the Minister the best in formulating policy.

Mr. O'Kennedy

During the recent recess the question of procedural reform in this House was a matter of concern and public interest. One of the matters concerning everybody is that the business of the House should be facilitated. I would endeavour to make my contribution towards that end by speaking as briefly as possible having regard to the wide scope of the Estimate.

I am glad to see that the Minister has been restored to full vigour. I am quite sure that he too wants to get on with the job. I hope all of us will assist him in getting through the Estimate as quickly as possible particularly since his zest for the work is so obvious that he is taking only a short time for tea. We should co-operate with the Minister as much as possible.

There was a great deal in Deputy O'Donnell's speech with which I actively agree in connection with our tourist industry which I must come back to as being the main theme of my contribution. One thing that Deputy O'Donnell said struck me very forcibly. He mentioned, almost in passing, that we should be wary lest we fall into the same trap as France did in recent years, that is, price ourselves out of the business, and should take every step to ensure that this does not happen here.

I should like initially to set the record straight as far as France is concerned. It is important that we should realise precisely where we are going and what has happened in other countries in recent years. I had the opportunity of having a holiday in France towards the begining of last autumn. It is becoming clear to everybody that France introduced the reforms which we now can possibly set about introducing. After a period of about there weeks in a small type comfortable hotel I could say to the last france what my hotel bill would be at the end of the period. This is because the French have realised that service charges, special taxes and things of that sort that vary in different areas were an active discouragement to the tourist business. The customer can now see posted up on the door of his room the total cost, including the charges hitherto added on as an extra to the bill. The result is that a person in Ireland can be told there in Ireland what the cost for a stated period in France would be. The same is true of Italy and most European countries. He can get it to a decimal point of a franc. I wonder if Europeans coming here get the same accuracy in forecasting the cost of a stay in a hotel here. I know of course that there are stated amounts. That is just one of the things that I should like to make the theme of my contribution because I appreciate that we are dealing with this matter to a certain extent on the Supplementary Estimate before us.

Developments in our tourist accommodation in general, to a certain extent, at least up to very recently, ignore the fact that it is the small type hotel, restaurant, guesthouse—here I am very much in sympathy with Deputy O'Donnell—which must be the mainstay of our further development in tourism. This is one of the characteristics of the accommodation that is available in Europe, in particular. While they are moving towards selective accomodation in small hotels, we, on the contrary, up to possibly this year, went rather in the other direction, of providing large hotels in fairly highly populated areas.

This is not necessarily to the deteriment of the other development. But, as there is only a limited amount of money available it means it is distributed rather in a disproportionate fashion. While nobody can complain or suggest that major hotels are not entirely necessary with the facilities that they provide, there is room now for rethinking and for an active change of direction on the part of Bord Fáilte with a view to meeting the new, discerning demands so many people who want to get basic simple accommodation with good food and a strong level of local friendship and character.

To qualify for hotel grants at present the minimum number of bedrooms which one must have under Bord Fáilte regulations for an hotel licence is ten. This, I am sure, is for reasons which were well established in the past and may have been valid then, but this is not so in any of the countries to which I have referred— France, Italy and I am not sure in Spain either. The hotel which is most attractive to the not so well lined tourist, the person who wants to have a holiday, to get the feel of the country and to get to know the habits of the country, is the small type hotel. In these countries there are many such hotels around the small towns. Deputy O'Donnell may have been center when he said that France priced itself out of the business but as a qualification it can be said that France—and France is known to be one of the most expensive countries in the world—is pricing itself center back into the business. For those who want the very tops in accommodation for the very tops in money France will provide it, but for those who want the minimum expense with basic comforts and excellent food France will also provide that.

We must realise that there should be no conflict between the development of luxury, sumptuous facilities and the development of the small rural family hotel. There is every case now to be made for Bord Fáilte revising its motion of the minimum ten bedrooms. If we can provide five or six bedrooms in a family-type hotel with good food and have these scattered throughout rural Ireland, particularly the west, we will be giving a service to the country and also an impression to the visitors with whom we must now be actively concerned, whom we hope to join very shortly, an impression of this country which I do not think they can get, by and large, in the hotels as they exist at present.

I have fairly close associations with the hotel industry here. I have every admiration for Bord Fáilte and what they have done and for the hoteliers themselves. But, remember this—and I think hoteliers themselves recognise this—this country has been good to the hoteliers over the last ten years.

Mr. O'Hara

Hear, hear.

Mr. O'Kennedy

The grants and interest-free loans that have been made available to them are at the highest possible rate that any country could make available. It is time we made it clear that we now demand—not from those already in existence but from those who make new applications—that we are going to be very discerning because if we want our tourism to go hand-in-hand with the type of development we want it must be—and I know Bord Fáilte are aware of this—a very selective development, a development which will not spoil the Irish people as sometimes tourism can by giving quick money easily—open the door, polish your shoes and change the table mats type of thing—but a development which will bring out the best in the Irish people. This will be done by a vital change in direction so that we will see going up around the country smaller type hotels—if necessary under the present minimum of ten bed-dooms—and guesthouses.

A matter which is closely associated with accommodation but on a different plane is the question of the facilities which foreigners expect whether or not they stay in hotels. In 1959 I was coming back from a year in Switzerland with a scooter which had seen better days. At the end of July or thereabouts I came through Holyhead and was told that I would be very lucky if I got my scooter to Ireland with me within a week. By gentle persuasion I got it over that night but I discovered that, if I had brought a car with me that year, at the end of July I could not have got it over to Ireland before the end of September. That was 1959. We all know there have been many changes since then. At that time I wrote to the three daily newspapers— which was the only avenue open to me then. I had done a survey of the population of Europe, the car traffic of Europe to England but there was no car traffic from England to Ireland. I also sent a copy of the letter to the Government Department concerned. Each of the papers sent me back the copy which I sent to them. The Government Department retained it for, I hope, further study and consideration. Perhaps my prose may not have been acceptable but at that time it was not even considered worthy of consideration. Now, some years later, we have recognised the possibilities. We have learned that the Germans, the Italians and the French like to take their cars on holiday. We have realised that there are over 250,000,000 of them over there, so we had better provide some facilities. We have started to do it in the last couple of years. We have forgotten that what we are doing now is catching up with the trends in Europe ten years ago. They are changing now and we are not catching up with the new trends.

One of the major developments in Europe now is serviced camping sites. I do not mean caravan sites because the congestion on the roads in Europe has made it physically impossible for people to take caravans around with them as they used to do. They now have modern fold-up camps or tents which contain everything possibly from fold-up mahogany tables to bathrooms and they have fully serviced camping sites in rural parts reasonably adjacent to the resorts. We are now getting over the cars problem, we are providing facilities for cars with caravans, but we are not even providing caravan sites never mind camp sites. The result is— Deputy Desmond touched on this—we are forgetting that one of the developments of the seventies will be road congestion. If we can cut down by half the space which each tourist takes up without cutting down the number of tourists, if we can say: "You can bring your fold-up camp in the full knowledge that we have absolutely excellent facilities—camping sites, washing facilities, shopping facilities—in rural Ireland at a reasonable cost."

In this way we are, first of all, providing facilities for the people in the heart of Ireland; secondly, we are cutting down on the traffic congestion which will inevitably follow unless we provide those facilities; and, thirdly, we are activating rural Ireland in a way only tourism can do in this connection. Where the hotelier concerned, and I say this with deference to my many hotelier friends, benefits directly, a large camping site benefits the whole area because these people will buy their groceries and everything else in the neighbourhood. Benefits occur over a wide range of interests and not just to one particular concern.

I hope Bord Fáilte together with the local authorities will realise that this is what we should be doing for holiday accommodation in the seventies. If we continue to provide accommodation appropriate for the sixties in the seventies and for the seventies in the eighties we shall never succeed—even if we get that extra ferry Deputy Desmond spoke about—in tapping that vast market. They are eager to find out about us, particularly now that we are to become part of them.

In 1968 there were major student disturbances in Paris. I do not know how significant they were in Paris. I do not know how many Parisians slept in terror because of the noise in the streets. I know the international press made quite a bit of it in the quiet times, in the "silly season". But I do know that was a terrible disaster for all the holiday resorts of France. I have this on first-hand information. People living 400 or 500 miles from Paris felt the local issue in Paris as we did. Because of the notion: "Don't take a chance; if there is any noise anywhere, don't go" bookings were cancelled even in resorts in the South of France, around the Spanish border, and very significant losses were suffered all over the country as a result. The same thing happened in Greece before that and the same thing happened in Ireland last year.

While I would be the last in the world to suggest that we here have not been close to and interested in the troubles of the north over the last 12 months, potential holiday-makers should be made aware of the situation. As far as most of them are concerned, Ireland is a little place and west Cork is very near Belfast and Derry. Riots in the streets of Belfast, or any other problems they might have, could have a limited effect on the tourist industry in west Cork. Far be it from me to suggest that everyone in Belfast and Derry should quieten down for the sake of our tourist industry in west Cork—as long as there are injustices and wrongs to be centered, I frankly hope they will be centered—but we must anticipate this attitude in the coming year and ensure that Bord Fáilte are so geared that they can say: "Yes, it is happening in the North of Ireland but you can safely go to Galway, Sligo, or Cork and enjoy an Irish holiday like you always did." Whatever the position was last year, certainly people are well aware of the situation now and may have been discouraged from booking because of what they regard as active discord and trouble.

I want to refer now to what I regard as one of the most desirable developments in tourism in recent times. This has been concentrated in the part of Ireland which I come from, namely the mid-western tourist region—North Tipperary, Clare and Limerick. I refer to the rent-a-cottage holiday scheme. I do not think this is the scheme Deputy Desmond was talking about. He seemed to have a certain dread of cottages. He seemed not to want to let anybody know where we came from. I do not know if he is speaking about this scheme but it is the only one I am aware of and I think it is contributing significantly to the areas in which it has been developed. This scheme could be the beginning of a very significant and attractive development, financially and otherwise, in the west of Ireland. Someone told me that we may see the day when the west of Ireland will be peopled with cottages again.

Mr. O'Hara

We are making a start in North Mayo.

Mr. O'Kennedy

I am glad to hear that. The idea emanated from Shannon Airport, from Mr. Brendan O'Regan, chairman of Bord Fáilte and from the very active staff down there. They have been investigating suitable types of development for this country. These cottages are typically Irish in all the facilities they provide, but they are typically modern too. They give people who want to live in a typically Irish environment the opportunity of doing so and, at the same time, having all the facilities of modern life neatly hidden away, including central heating under the floor, so that they will not spoil the comforts and Irish look. They give the visitor a chance to get back to his roots. We are sometimes rather harsh on the Americans, but some of these Americans are two or three generations removed from this country and they feel nostalgic and emotional when they come back. It means a lot to these people to come back and sit down in an Irish cottage. It is as much a reality for them to relive the past that they have never known, as it is for us to go out to the country pub.

I think this scheme has the center idea in more ways than one. Local investment plays a major part in the scheme. Each local area forms its own committee of development in connection with the scheme. Each of these committees are shareholders in the company. The Shannonside area has the usual facilities from Bord Fáilte of interest-free grants, a loan negotiated from one of the banks at a very favourable rate of interest, contributions from the local authority and from Shannonside itself. I think the local people provide between 10 and 20 per cent of the total cost. For this they are the shareholders, the directors.

This is the kind of active, positive, enlightened socialism which should be, and in fact is, part of the Fianna Fáil approach, not the book socialism or academic socialism, but the enlightened sharing of assets among all the people. Here is an example of it, which I hope will be extended widely throughout the country. Certainly it has met with much support where it has been introduced in the Shannonside area. All of us may properly lay claim to a small leavening of socialism——

Mr. P.J. Burke

Christian socialism.

Mr. O'Kennedy

Deputy Burke has given it a very important prefix.

Mr. Tully

I think it may be a little more like capitalism.

Mr. O'Kennedy

I will settle for Christian socialism. Certainly, in North Tipperary many areas have not, and, as yet, cannot qualify because the scheme has only recently started, but I would encourage Bord Fáilte and particularly the Shannonside Tourist Development Company to place these cottages as much as possible in areas that would not otherwise be on the tourist track thereby benefiting the tourists and the local people whom we want to see staying at home and earning as much money as possible.

The scheme has another factor to commend it. I have a notion that recently the cost of administration within Bord Fáile has become somewhat heavier than is warranted by the work being done by the officers and staff around the country. We have regional officers and regional offices, area officers and area offices and we have representatives in each town. All the personnel involved are enthusiastic but I regret to say that as far as the programme is going at present I do not think they have enough to do. Some of them at least have not sufficient work. These are men who are straining at the leash, ready to go out and promote and it is in this sphere that the administration costs of Bord Fáilte at present, with their inspectors and advisers—all of them necessary and desirable—are a very significant feature. We should ensure that by pressing on with local development such as this and the caravan or camping sites to which I have already referred we would get the maximum possible return from those engaged in this work. In recent years I do not think the expansion has equalled the amount of finance made available. I should like to see a close relationship between the increase in personnel and the increase in local tourist activity.

The ESB comes within the scope of this Estimate. I am glad to note that again there has been an increase in demand for rural connection and that this is more than partly due to the reduction in the special service charge. We in this House will have to face the fact that urban consumers will have to subsidise rural consumers to an even greater extent. Even if rural consumers lived nearer to supply lines and were not more costly to connect we should still be obliged, I think, as part of our policy to maintain a rural population and——

Mr. Donegan

Christian Socialism.

Mr. O'Kennedy

The same words again cover quite a lot. We would be still obliged to ensure that we would have the people of Ireland on the land of Ireland. The revenue deficit on the rural account last year was over £2 million, a considerable sum. The board are to be commended that they have been able to carry such deficit due to providing such a desirable social service. I commend this and I would tell the ESB to go even further in this direction because I know many old labourers and pensioners who are still without electricity and who cannot take it even at the present price quoted to them. I would suggest that the board should reduce its charges even further in some instances so that we in the cities who have an opportunity of getting some of the cream should again subsidise a service that will ensure that rural Ireland will be a living unit and also an attractive place for people to live as we want them to live.

I was glad to note that the Minister proposes to set up a board to advise on and consider possible future developments in regard to nuclear power in the near future. The ESB I think have been somewhat handicapped in that either they did not fully avail of the technological expertise which they have or they did not have this expertise to a sufficient extent. I have been concerned as a result of inquiries made to find that engineers' salary scales for instance, from a perusal I have made, seem to be grossly inadequate. The record of resignations, particularly in earlier years, from the board is not encouraging when the country should be making every effort to develop the skill of technologists for themselves, the company and the community. We sometimes appear to have a wrong assessment of the actual work of these people.

For instance, if my information is center, in the case of the Turlough Hill pump storage project, a major and very costly project, the contract for the design had to be placed abroad at enormous cost, so far as I know, because our own engineers—and ESB engineers are second to none—had not got the experience or the facility to gain experience over the past 20 years. The experience should have been acquired then in order to be able to use it now. Only some, and not a sufficient number, had got this experience and training to ensure that we had our own skilled personnel who, when occasion arose, could design these developments themselves for us without the need to place contracts abroad at enormous expense.

I think Turlough Hill is only one such project; I do not know but I believe the same would apply to other generating stations also. Surely, when we have come of age as a nation we will not tolerate this position any more. Let us face the fact that what we spare now—and the ESB are as good at saving on our behalf as anybody else—would only be wasted later. That is why I am glad the Minister has decided to set up this board and, perhaps, introduce a Bill in regard to potential nuclear development so that when such development does occur we shall not have to go to America, France or Germany seeking an expert or else place a contract abroad as has happened in the recent past. If we can be as expert in politics here as other Legislatures there is no reason why in any other sphere we should not be equally proficient. It is time that the Irish people were given the opportunity to realise their natural expertise at a great saving to the nation which, in the case of one particular project that I mentioned, was not made.

Mr. Tully

Is that what actually happened? Was it is not that the contract was sent for tender only to firms that——

Mr. O'Kennedy

I think that is true but the point is still valid. I am not blaming the ESB for what happened on this project; I am saying that in the future if projects are coming up we should be ready for them. Deputy Tully is center that these were the only people capable of doing it. I should also like to mention a point which was raised by Deputy Desmond and with which many of us have sympathy, that is the role of the semi-State body in retaining the environment we have at present. One notes that the "State of the Union" speech by President Nixon was devoted almost exclusively to the maintenance and preservation of the environment. The indications are that if things continue as they are in the States they will, within eight or ten years, have succeeded in spoiling themselves out of a meaningful existence. As yet we have not got the density of population of the States or of countries in Europe, and while every other country is actively discouraging population growth we are one of the few countries encouraging it. I do not know whether we will change our policy over the next few years but presuming our population continues to grow we too will be faced with an environmental problem. As Deputy Desmond suggests, the lead in much of this should come from the Government and, as far as this Estimate is concerned, from the semi-State bodies.

To mention two incidental references, we find that CIE have improved their services considerably, they have bcenterened up their stations and the services and comforts provided are commendable particularly when one considers that this has been achieved in the short period of five years— changing from utter drabness to reasonably bcenter and breezy accommodation on their trains and in their stations. Perhaps Irish people are not too sensitive about noise; but it is a problem, whether it is in the air or elsewhere, and it is driving many people mad. Perhaps we may find that hard to accept. We should impose the most stringent regulations in regard to noise from our transport services. Buses in this city, particularly in dry summers, are screeching every time they come to a halt. If we want this city to be known as a city of screeching brakes and intolerable noises then that can continue, but we should ensure that something should be done about this. I do not know how it can be done either from an engineering or a mechanical point of view but it seems to be a simple problem. We should ensure that not one bus makes a noise when the brakes are applied and then we will not have to go around in summer putting our hands to our ears and saying: "My God, isn't that awful."

Secondly we should ensure—and there has been some improvement here —that when buses are taking off with a full load they will not emit black fumes and black poison. This is happening and it is evidenced by the condition of many of our public buildings a number of which recently have been getting a long overdue cleaning up and are coming back to their old glory. We are one of the few cities using a public transport system operated on diesel oil; many other countries such as Switzerland, Germany and Italy still have the overhead rails or trolley buses. One does not see as many buses in London because there they have the underground system as well as a vast cab system. In Dublin we rely more than most other countries on the bus. It has been said that buses cause congestion and they can accommodate the space of 40 or 50 cars but they can also produce a lot of poison. I do not know how we can ensure that exhaust poison is not emitted. Whether it is a problem of proper oiling or greasing or otherwise I do not know, but it should not be beyond the normal ability of a reasonably qualified man in his own sphere to find a solution.

Next summer if I hear this noise in the city and find this poison being emitted and if this House is in recess I will spend my time writing letters so that everybody concerned will wake up to the fact that we are being poisoned more quickly than the Americans, the French or the Germans who have much less space for a great many more people. The environment problem will be the problem of the seventies even in Ireland. I hope the Minister will consult with the appropriate Minister —I am not too clear who is responsible for prosecuting for such pollution offences — and ensure that all of us will survive to see a bcenterer country to which others will come to enjoy and in which we can survive in health and in happiness.

Mr. Donegan

Some of my colleagues mentioned the question of whether we should go for very large hotels or try to develop tourism through the small family hotels all over the country and in this city. The corollary perhaps is between England and France. In England you have the trust houses and perhaps the more modest type of hotel and the boarding house while in France you have family type accommodation with the café on the corner. Nobody eats in the place; he sleeps there but goes out to the café where often he will eat more cheaply and better. Here we have had — I do not know whether the Fianna Fáil Deputies will agree with me — the accent on the very large type hotel and that has been typified in the last 12 months when we had investment in the Ryan hotels and now we have an investment which the Minister indicates is partly in England and partly here. Investment in the last 12 months totalled something like £1,100,000. In the Estimate I find that grants for the development of small hotels, medium-sized hotels and family hotels, and the larger hotels if they qualify, is again of the order of £1,100,000. I feel that the accent should be on the family-type hotels and also on the guesthouse. I am not living in a very developed tourist area but it is one that should be developed — the Boyne valley, the Cooley Peninsula and the intervening piece of Louth between. I know that in the last number of years the placing of Eastern Regional Tourism Organisation caravans in Drogheda and Dundalk meant that all over Louth and Meath you had guesthouses and farmhouses with not a sign on them in many instances. English families were arriving with their cars and they could go to these caravans and book modest accommodation for themselves and their children which accommodation was not available in the expensive hotels.

What is the position now? We have too large investment in too large hotels designed, in my view, for passengers coming from the United States and the Continent of Europe by Aer Lingus. In regard to the middle income British tourists we have in or about the same sum devoted towards the development of accommodation for them. The best thing done for tourism over the last few years — it was done by a Fianna Fáil Government; I concede that — was the establishment of car ferries. The car ferry from Dún Laoghaire to Holyhead brings in daily during the summer months well over 1,000 to 2,000 people on each of its two daily trips, plus their cars. Looking at that situation one realises the amount of accommodation necessary. Seeing the number of children one realises that the accent should be on farmhouse accommodation and family-type hotels. These middle income British tourists should be channelled, not through the Ryan organisation, not through the Hibernian or the Russell Hotels, but through the various regional tourism organisations, which will contact the guesthouses and family hotels and send these people there. That is how tourism should be developed. There are 60 million people in Britain, the majority of whom have cars. They may go to Finisterre or Brittany this year, but there is a good chance that they will come to Ireland next year. One can be quite certain that you will get these tourists in five years out of every ten. This is the greatest volume of traffic, not the other. That is not to say we should neglect the other; it is to say that the accent should be on the provision of medium-priced accom modation.

What is the exact position in relation to the companies that have been set up? They have not got one red shilling to spend. The funds of Bord Fáilte — the Minister may contradict me here and now, if he wishes — are set aside for the next 12 months for the development of the large tourist resorts. As a Deputy and as chairman of Louth County Council I know there is no money available for the smaller seaside resorts to enable them to develop amenities. Last year, Louth County Council, in their wisdom, voted a sum of money towards the loan charges on a car park in the village of Omeath. Northern Ireland Saturday and Sunday trippers come in in their hundreds, but there is no car park. We spent some money the previous year widening the road and providing parking for 100 or 200 cars. Bord Fáilte had not so much as one shilling to put a car park in that small seaside resort.

Mr. B. Lenihan

That is what the local authorities are for.

Mr. Donegan

It is not the function of the local authority. The local authority voted the loan charges and were quite ready to make a car park. The Minister can check the estimate of the Louth County Council. The money is provided for the large resorts. The large hotel will be built in the large resort. The Minister's colleague was reported in the Evening Press yesterday, speaking at the opening of the extension to Achill Sound Hotel, which cost £100,000, as saying that the accent was wrong and that the money should have been spent on small family hotels. That is what the Minister's colleague, Deputy Seán Flanagan, the only original thinker in the Cabinet, thinks about the Government and their policy where tourism is concerned.

The investments made by Aer Lingus are necessary. I know the package deal. I travelled to London two weeks ago; I left on Friday and I came back on Sunday and the total bill, including hotel accommodation, came to just £22. The hotel I stayed in was privately owned. It was not owned by EDA. The package deal is proving very popular on the Continent and elsewhere. In the package deal system one is not restricted to certain hotels. One can negotiate agreements and make arrangements with private hotels. The Minister need not think that by investing £1 million in certain hotels he is producing a Shangri-la. Every air company in the world is utilising the forward booking system with privately owned hotels. That can be done without any large investment. I maintain that the investment in the smaller type of hotel should be greater in the pleasant country areas. There should be more money for the small resorts as against making millionaires out of three or four people——

Mr. B. Lenihan

We are doing both.

Mr. Donegan

My point is that the accent is wrong. It is on the big hotel. The American tourist stays for three days and thinks he has seen the country. The accent should be on the development of accommodation for the British tourist.

Mr. B. Lenihan

That is being done.

Mr. P. Belton

It is not being done.

Mr. Donegan

It may be done, but it is done to a lesser extent.

Mr. B. Lenihan

We had a very constructive debate until now. Now it is very boring.

Mr. Donegan

Constructive or not, I say the accent is wrong.

Mr. B. Lenihan

The two ignoramuses have taken over now.

Mr. Donegan

So much for that. I should like now to mention port and harbour authorities. Deputy Barry Desmond suggested a joint port authority for Waterford, Cork, Dublin and Dún Laoghaire. These are large ports. We have smaller ports. As a member of a port authority for some years my experience is that each port authority bangs along on its own, in competition with its fellow authorities, and it inevitably gets itself into the expenditure of capital which cannot be met out of its own resources in harbour dues. When that situation builds up it becomes rather like Popo the Puppet. It can do anything as long as the Minister pulls the strings by producing money or a plan for long-term expenditure on dredging the harbour, or by producing harbour works such as my friend Deputy Burke rejoices in having done in Skerries with the help of his friend Deputy Mark Clinton.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I will bring the Deputy up for a day when we have the job finished.

Mr. Donegan

Thank you. Deputy Desmond's suggestion is perhaps a good one. It has this flaw from the Government's point of view. If you come out and say that various small harbours will not get as great help as others because they are not physically entitled to it and it would be unwise to spend the taxpayers' money on those projects, you disappoint people in those particular places and you invite considerable criticism.

As it stands at the moment, the Department of Transport and Power are in a position to cloak behind their individual allocations to various harbours the question of whether they are really downgrading one and upgrading another. This is perhaps of political importance but it is not of great importance. I would not be in favour of a board for the four large harbours and no board for the smaller harbours. I believe that anyone who has any experience of taking in goods to Dublin knows that Dublin is very busy and very overcrowded as far as dock space is concerned and, when it comes to small items of machinery or spares or anything like that, even with the colossal expense, it is still better to fly them in. If you bring them through Dublin port, the likelihood is that they will be lost, perhaps for days, perhaps for weeks. In those circumstances it is clear that Dublin is heavily overcrowded and bursting at the seams.

There are many harbours which could accept container traffic and do, much smaller harbours which could accept it from across the Channel rather than from the Continent perhaps. We have the examples in my own constituency of Greenore, Dundalk and Drogheda doing this job and doing it well. I would plead with the Minister to accept the fact that Dublin is bursting at the seams. I agree undoubtedly that Waterford, Cork, Galway, Limerick and Dublin are the major harbours but, when the Minister has seen to these, he should not allow the wrong accent — I am not suggesting that he has — to be placed on the larger harbours to the detriment of the smaller harbours.

Anyone who knows anything about it, or who has been interested in it, knows that if you have a harbour like Waterford with something like 30 feet under the keel of a boat at all stages at the lowest tide, this is a marvellous harbour. It means that you can bring in very big boats, and bring them in safely with very little dredging. If that is true it is also true to say that harbours like Drogheda and Dundalk and fishing harbours — which are not the responsibility of the Minister — like Skerries and various other small harbours, Wicklow and Arklow where there is a sand bar problem, should not be neglected. There should most certainly be a balanced long-term plan whereby these harbours will be improved and not by any means allowed to deteriorate.

I now come to Whiddy Island. I made my point here on this Estimate last year in relation to Whiddy Island. I produced documentation from the international oil companies and from the Gulf Oil Company's magazine in which there was an article asking what was in this for the Irish and indicating the maximum number of people who would be employed at the end. As Deputy Desmond said, we are very glad to get that employment. I agree with him, but the employment in relation to the movement of goods in and out is minimal. The Gulf Oil Company have indicated that there is no objection to the establishment of a harbour board at Whiddy Island.

I want to make the House realise what this involves. I have done my homework on this and I have my documentation. There are two places in the world where a tanker the size of the tanker coming into Whiddy Island can load and unload. One is in Kuwait from whence the oil comes and the other is in Whiddy Island. The loading point in Kuwait is ten miles out at sea and a 48-inch pipeline runs ten miles under the sea out to the loading point. Imagine the cost. Imagine the colossal amount of money it took to provide that loading bay ten miles out at sea at Kuwait.

I have seen tankers coming into Whiddy Island and I have seen them go. I have sailed down there myself. I have not seen any oil on the water. They had one problem I know, but I have heard of no other. It appears to me that we as a nation are giving away something in the order of £1 million per year in harbour dues, if we levied full harbour dues, in not creating a harbour authority at Whiddy Island. My balanced view is that I do not suggest there should be full harbour dues because we are taking the stuff in and putting it out again in smaller tankers. If it were half harbour dues, from the figures given in reply to parliamentary questions last year, it appears to me as if we are throwing away £500,000.

I want to suggest — and do not think I am flogging my own horse for my own constituency — that the people of Arklow would be extremely glad if the Minister were in a position to say next year in relation to the sand bar that is impeding their port half a mile out:

"We will be able to devote £50,000 a year for the next ten years to removing that sand bar and the creation of a better flow so that the sand which is removed will stay removed", rather than that we should, by not doing anything at Whiddy Island, lose £1 million a year at full harbour dues or £500,000 a year at half harbour dues, remembering that the only two places in the world where they can dock load or load to their full capacity are at Whiddy Island and Kuwait and remembering that in Wales, where Britain is doing this, they are spending millions and millions of pounds at Milford Haven, that full dock dues will be charged, and that they will not be able to take a tanker two-thirds the size of the one that is coming into Whiddy Island, and remembering that the only other port it could come into on the Continent is Trieste. These are the facts.

Mr. B. Lenihan

I know that.

Mr. Donegan

The Minister admits that?

Mr. B. Lenihan

The Deputy should not be saying the obvious.

Mr. Donegan

These are the facts.

Mr. B. Lenihan

I know that.

Mr. Donegan

I want to mention now the question of Aer Lingus and our airports. Like other Deputies I think we have probably the best airline in the world. There is a case for the development of small airports for the movement of tourists in smaller planes to other parts of the country. I have been in Castlebar Airport. It is a success so far as landing and taking off planes are concerned. If we can develop a service like this and have a service to Castlebar which will get tourists center across to the West of Ireland, and perhaps have other services where they are necessary, we will develop the tourist trade that matters, the tourist trade from which the plain people of Ireland can get the profit. It is most important that we should do this. I commend the people of Castlebar for their great energy in setting out and doing this job. I would suggest to the Minister that it is something he should look at and I congratulate his predecessor on having provided some money for Castlebar Airport.

With regard to the question of Shannon and Dublin much has been said. My colleague Deputy O'Donnell was, I think, partly accused of being rather parochial in relation to Shannon. It is quite clear that we need both Shannon and Dublin. I have gone to some trouble to inquire what the situation will be when the jumbo jets start to operate normally. I understand that the jumbo jets are disappointing in two ways. They have not got up to the cruising speed which it was hoped they would have, and they use more fuel. I understand that for this reason Shannon would not be the loser. My source of information is pretty certain to be true and if this is so then Shannon will continue and should continue to be a major airport. The same thing is true of Shannon as is of Castlebar. Shannon did help the tourist industry in the south of Ireland and fewer tourists went to Donegal because of Shannon Airport. This is a fact of life which must be accepted.

There were some criticisms in relation to constructional works in Dublin where new buildings were knocked down and replaced by other buildings. All I say is I hope it will not happen again. You cannot make an omelette without breaking eggs and if we move as fast as the aviation industry is moving there is bound to be if not the odd mistake at least the odd change of mind. That has to be met with and I suppose that means knocking down a building now and again.

Mr. P. Belton

£100,000 worth.

Mr. Donegan

I agree, but my Christian charity prompts me to be kind. I am merely saying it would be unfair to the taxpayer and it would be wrong if it happened again. Everyone is entitled to one mistake as the dog is entitled to one bite, but it was an expensive mistake.

In regard to air safety, I am aware that Aer Lingus captains are almost alone in the world inasmuch as they are like the old captain of the ship, in a position to decide for themselves. If he does not feel like coming down through a fog he can divert, by his own decision, to another airport. That, and it has been suggested to me by an Aer Lingus captain, is probably one of the greatest safety factors we have. I want to commend the management of Aer Lingus, Mr. Dempsey and now Mr. Dargan, for their wisdom in initiating this situation. The people of Ireland should be extremely glad of this. We have had bad luck. We had the training accident at Ballymadun and we had the crash at the Tuskar Rock. We could not have carried on forever without having some air disaster but in relation to the millions of people travelling we should be extremely proud of the air safety record of Aer Lingus and of the situation whereby the captain in charge is the one who makes the decision to land.

Aer Lingus is not, however, like an angel, white all over. It has the odd black spot and I want to indicate one black spot. This was an incident which involved a few friends and myself when we took a plane to Cork. When we arrived at Cork we were informed that there was an electrical fault and we were going back to Dublin. Then an hour and a half later we set off for Cork in another plane but could not land because there was fog. That we did not mind. We were diverted to Shannon. By this time it was 2 o'clock in the morning and we were then put in a bus which I could only describe as a bus with four square wheels. We arrived at Cork at 6 in the morning only to discover that the driver of the bus had locked the compartment where our luggage was and could not open it. We then had to borrow some tools from passing motorists and open it ourselves. We entered the hotel to which we were directed when the Aer Lingus courier informed us we were not being provided with bed or breakfast. Some people bought bed and breakfast and others just lay out in the lounge.

When diversions like that occur, whether it is within the country or outside it — I have had diversions outside the country where I was treated royally — whether it means a little less profit, for the name of the airline we should make the proper decision. It did not matter about myself and my pals; we were as happy as Larry, but when this happens, people should be treated as they would expect to be treated in these circumstances, especially when your journey starts off at eight in the evening and finishes at six the following morning. In these circumstances the red tape should be cut. There were Dutch, German and French people on this journey.

Mr. B. Lenihan

When did this happen?

Mr. Donegan

I will not tell the Minister. He will not get the chance of getting anyone into trouble. However, that is not a good experience and it is something that should be watched. On the question of the ESB, none of us is paying our bills because they are not coming out to us. However, my friend, Deputy Michael O'Kennedy, was pleased with the present progress of rural electrification. I am displeased as far as my own area is concerned, because I know of many parts where fantastic sums are being asked from people building houses to have electricity installed, whereas if they wait three or four years the area will be done. I again go to the original Book of Estimates to find out how much is the repayment back to the Central Fund in respect of rural electrification and I find it is £1 million. That means we are spending £2 million on rural electrification. It was 50 per cent anyway. When I look at the front of this Book of Estimates before we get our supplementaries, which will be showering down upon us for some time, I see that the total sum for capital and other services is £354 million. In other words, to get rid of this last bit of non-electrified Ireland we are spending £2 million in relation to a total expenditure of £354 million, plus the Supplementary Estimates which without the slightest doubt will bring this sum up to about £400 million. We are not moving fast enough in relation to rural electrification. A comparison could, perhaps, be made with the telephone service. The telephone service is a service which pays but rural electrification which does not pay seems to be dragging behind telephone installation, and all over the country people who need telephones for their business cannot get them. The Minister should speed up rural electrification and not be asking people like a poor man I know for fantastic sums. This man was asked last week for £342 when electricity was being supplied to a rich man 250 or 300 yards away who could provide a capital sum. These things are extremely galling to good Irish citizens who have been doing their work conscientiously over the years.

Again, on the ESB, my colleague Deputy Barry Desmond said there was no reason at all why State companies, if they felt like it, should not indulge far more in private enterprise activity such as the sale of goods. What would be Deputy Desmond's reaction if the boot was on the other foot and the activities of a State company were going to deprive some of his members of their jobs? What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I do not think it is center that the ESB should engage in selling goods in competition with the unfortunate retailer down the street who is paying his rent, rates and taxes and who cannot switch off the light if his customers do not make the payments as the ESB can do. I know the answer given to me in this House years ago. There are thousands of people in this effort now and they must carry on, I agree. What is done cannot be undone In all State companies, if you are in charge of five persons in an office, the top salary may be £1,500 or £2,000. If you are in charge of ten persons your possible top is about twice that much. Therefore, every State company tends to try to expand itself. Its executive naturally desires to have more people, to seek more promotion, to have better opportunity for promotion That is human nature.

I would recommend to the Minister that the operations of the ESB in selling appliances should not be extended. That section should be left to stand at its present size. It is there now and there should be fair play for those engaged in it. They cannot be put out of a job.

I now move to the question of CIE and GNR pensioners. I want the Minister to think seriously about this be cause it is a matter of Christian con science. In Dundalk, Drogheda and I am sure, in Dublin, there are pensioners whose pensions are 20/- to 25/ a week. It would take tears from a stone to find decent men who gave 30 years service to the railway stuck on this tiny pension. Their counterparts in CIE are on a much better rate. I want to be quite clear on this The Minister's predecessor indicated that he was going to do something about it. That was nine or twelve months ago. If that is the case and if that is on the Departmental file, will the Minister please do something about it before they are all dead? I do not bring this matter up in a spirit of criticism. I am merely telling the Minister about the plight of these unfortunate GNR pensioners and pre 1956——

Mr. B. Lenihan

1953. We are going to go into pre-1953 pensioners.

Mr. Donegan

Pre-1953 and pre-1956—yes. If you are going to do something about it please do it in the coming budget. Otherwise they will all be dead before you get around to doing it.

I now want to mention the question of safety at sea. There is an item in the Estimate for radio because and such aids to safety. As far as I find them in the Irish sea, they are absolutely fool-proof. There is a marvellous service in the Irish sea. You tune into the one wavelength, on the hour you get Skerries and Holyhead; three minutes after the hour you get the Kish; six minutes after that, Lundy, and nine minutes after that the Bishop Lighthouse, and anybody in the Irish sea should be able to find out where he is if he does not know already.

There is the question mentioned by Deputy O'Kennedy of lifeboats and air and sea rescue of a large number of persons, such as happened in the case of the Princess Victoria about 15 years ago and such as could happen with jumbo jets which found themselves in the middle of the Irish sea or any other sea bounding our shores, in rough conditions. I do not think the normal lifeboat arrangements would be any use there at all. The only help that would be of any use in the event of a large number of persons finding themselves in the waves would be another ship. This comes down to spotting where the thing has happened and getting to that place quickly. If the helicopter service operated by the Minister for Defence does not come under the auspices of the Minister for Transport and Power that Minister should make representations to the Minister for Defence to get that service extended so as to provide the best service and better spotting arrangements so that in the event of accidents at sea deaths will be avoided.

I do not know what arrangements the Department has with Irish Lights. Irish Lights provide the lifeboats, the lights, the lighthouses. Apparently, it is all because 90 per cent of the ships coming to our shores are British or foreign registered and they want to protect their own people. I do not know whether it was wise to withdraw the Fenit lifeboat. There was the case of the trawlermen who were lost when they were only 75 yards from the shore, where the trawler was impaled on rocks for some hours, down in Kerry. The question has been agitating the minds of persons interested in harbours and the sea as to whether or not the withdrawal of the Fenit lifeboat was wise. I do not want to offer any criticism of Irish Lights or of the Minister except to say that it appears to me as if probably it was not wise. There may have been a small amount of shipping in the area but it is better to be sure than sorry. I am sure that the lifeboat could have been maintained but for a decision, perhaps, not taken within this country. If the Minister has any influence with Irish Lights he might put it to them that the restoration of the lifeboat station at Fenit might be a good thing.

Again no criticism — just an observation — Irish Shipping have tramp steamers all over the world. This grew out of the fact that during the war we had to buy all the secondhand ships that we could get — the man who bought them was the former Deputy Seán Lemass — in order to get goods brought here. After that we tended to stay with the transatlantic route and to lease our ships as tramp steamers

Mr. B. Lenihan

Making very good money on it, too.

Mr. Donegan

Making a bit of money now but again I am not so certain you are making money if one were to apply the normal accountancy principles. You are making an operating surplus but I would be very pleased if you could tell us whether or not you are charging in your interest.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Irish Shipping are.

Mr. Donegan

Charging in their interest?

Mr. B. Lenihan

They have arrived yes. There were difficulties.

Mr. Donegan

There is another point, and it has been made here today, that 90 per cent of the goods delivered to our shores are delivered by foreign ships. In any international conflict, war or otherwise, we might find ourselves without those ships. Nobody thought that the Suez Canal would be closed. Now tankers have to come around the Cape.

It might be wise policy on the part of Irish Shipping in future to extend their fleet to include small coaster of 500 to 1,000 tons that could bring goods to the continent and from the continent, to Britain and from Britain. I merely offer that as a suggestion, not as a criticism, to draw attention to the fact that our ships are operating all over the world, not with Irish cargoes.

I have not been wholly critical. I hope I have helped the Minister in some regard.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Very constructive.

Mr. Kavanagh

I shall not make any apology for hogging my own constituency in this debate. I do so because I think the constituency of Wicklow has not been treated too well in many respects under several headings of the Estimate.

Deputy Donegan has mentioned harbours. If one were to look for a county and a constituency which was badly treated in this respect he need only go to Wicklow. The Minister has responsibility for 23 harbours. Two of those harbours are in County Wicklow — Wicklow and Arklow. I believe Bray comes under the aegis of the Minister for Local Government. Those three harbours have been in decline for a number of years. In regard to the two harbours for which the Minister has direct responsibility very little has been done to see that they are kept in a proper manner so that they can be used for the purposes for which they are needed in the county. Recently Avoca mines reopened. It was hoped that the ore from the Avoca mines would be shipped through either or both of those harbours but we understand now that there is a proposal to ignore both of them and to export this ore through the Roadstone jetty about half a mile from Arklow and outside the confines of the harbour authority's area in that town. If this jetty is used it will probably be the death knell of Arklow Harbour because there is a great need for a large capital investment to bring that harbour back to its proper state. The people of Arklow are disappointed by the way things have been let go. An efficient industry is on its last legs. The harbour is crumbling into the sea and it takes a very great effort by that local authority to get anything done for Arklow.

This country has no dredger which can be sent to any of these small ports and harbours. This is a great disappointment to harbour authorities like Arklow and Wicklow. The Board of Works have a dredger which is about 60 years old, The Sisyphus. If Arklow or Wicklow get that down it can only travel in the very calmest of weather and when it has done the job if it happens to be storm-bound the harbours must pay the same rates as if the dredger was working. Therefore, it can be very expensive to get this limited service. Within the last two years Wicklow Harbour has been dredged. We were very fortunate that a Dutch dredging firm happened to be in Wexford and the Wicklow Harbour Authority, in their wisdom, were able to get that dredger when it finished in Wexford. It did a very good job in Wicklow. That job cost £30,000 which is a very great sum of money for that harbour authority to be in debt. This decision was made by the harbour authority in order to attract business to Wicklow. If it had a deep harbour then it could advertise itself as a port where ships of 2,000 to 3,000 tons could dock. It is because of that that we have been able to attract business from Nítrigin Éireann and our sister port in Arklow because their harbour has on many occasions been silted up due to the sanding up of the bar just outside Wicklow Harbour. I would ask the Minister to take into account the problem of dredging harbours and if he ever has funds available for such a capital investment, to consider the purchase of a dredger to do this type of work in these small ports.

In Professor Myles Wcenter's report on the greater Dublin area the port of Wicklow is not even mentioned as a port to attract shipping, 2½ ton deadweight boats. This is a pity because this report is widely read by people who are interested in importing and exporting I make no apology for mentioning harbours like Wicklow and Arklow because if firms like the Avoca Copper Mines ignore Arklow and Wicklow it will be a great blow to both of those harbour authorities. I would ask the Minister to look at that problem.

I spent a few days in Shannon. I am not particularly conversant with the Shannon area but I was aware of the problem of community relations there. I would ask the Minister to get in touch with the relevant Department with a view to having a local authority set up in that area. The people who are living in Shannon town are the best people to run their affairs and they are keen to run their affairs in that area. The Minister should consider the setting up of a local authority for Shannon town.

Safety has been mentioned by other speakers. One of the biggest problems facing air companies at the moment is the problem of the hijacking of planes. We are glad that too many people are not allowed to go aboard planes with guns on their person in this country enabling them to hold up planes as happens in South America, the Near East and other places. However, it could happen and I am sure the Minister and the officials of Aer Lingus are worried about this problem since our air company is expanding to many places both in America and Europe. This problem will have to be faced and I hope that Aer Lingus are taking it into account. I feel there should be greater consultation between all the different safety committees and safety organisations to co-ordinate all their safety measures when there is an emergency such as the crash that happened on the Tusker Rock. I asked a question some time ago about this and the Minister told me that there was communication between the different safety bodies in the country.

I also asked the local coxswain of the Wicklow lifeboat and he said there had never been any exercise involving the air companies and the lifeboat service in the Wicklow area. It would be a valuable exercise to develop some plan which could be put into operation if we had an emergency, such as a plane crash, anywhere around our coast.

Mention was made of the ESB 7 per cent price increase. It is inevitable with increased costs that there must be an increase in the price of electricity, but I think it is rather pointless telling the people who have to pay these increases that they are better off than people in other countries, because electricity is cheaper here than on the continent. It is a fact that wages in those countries might be higher and it would, therefore, be easier for people to pay their bills. This fact is not mentioned in the television advertisements which tell us how lucky we are with the price of electricity in this country.

Deputy Donegan mentioned rural electrification. Many areas in my constituency still have to be covered by the extension of the rural electrification scheme. I have a letter before me which I shall read out:

Due to the volume of applications received from people who are already consumers it is not practical to carry out a canvass in your area at this time.

They are talking there about the Killavaney area. The letter continues:

However, this will be done as soon as possible. In the meantime if you wish to take supply out of turn you can pay a contribution of £61 which is the cost of the work involved in bringing you supply. This contribution would be refunded to you when the Killavaney area was being redeveloped.

It is a bit much to ask a person living in a labourer's cottage to pay £61 — in other words, it is putting it beyond the reach of such individuals. I suggest that payment could be made by instalment during the first couple of years after the electricity has been supplied in the same way as people buy electrical appliances from the ESB. This would make it a little cheaper for people who, in this day and age, feel they are entitled to electricity just as much as people in the towns.

I congratulate the officers of the ESB who designed and developed the Turlough Hill project in County Wicklow. It is a wonderful scheme which will bring great benefits to Dublin and Waterford, which will directly benefit from the storage capacity there. Some people are concerned about the erection of pylons and high tension wires over that beautiful area. Recently, when an ESB man was interviewed on television, he said every effort would be made to ensure that this would not intrude too much on the scenery and skyline in that area. I know he has visited the area several times lately and I hope he will endeavour to see that the pylons and wires taking current from the Turlough Hill project to the consumers will be kept away from the direct view of the people travelling on that route. This is one of the most beautiful parts of the country being close to Glendalough and the scenic routes to Wicklow.

Tourism was dealt with in an estimate before the recess. There is a certain amount of despondency in the Wicklow area as the number of inquiries at the Bray tourist office has dropped by about 2,000. I think the figure is also down in the case of Arklow.

When I was in the west of Ireland it appeared to me that great efforts were being made there with regard to tourism and a large amount of capital is being spent on tourism there. County Wicklow and its towns have traditionally depended on an income from tourism during the summer months. The town of Bray is one of the best-known tourist resorts among people in Scotland and Birmingham. It is rather sad to see that it has been neglected as regards the amount of capital invested on amenities there. Wicklow is combined with places like Meath, Kildare, Dún Laoghaire and Dublin to make up the Eastern Region Tourist Organisation. It is only natural that these other areas are endeavouring to get as much publicity, as much development and as much capital spent on them as the County of Wicklow is. Nevertheless, I do not think anybody can deny that County Wicklow has always been, and I hope always will be, a major tourist attraction, particularly for people visiting the city of Dublin. I do not think the County Wicklow is getting its fair share of capital investment and publicity for this purpose.

There is nothing further I want to say but I hope the Minister will take heed of what I have said about the harbours and the other matters I mentioned.

Mr. Dowling

I want to wish the Minister well. I am glad to see him back in office. I am quite sure his forward social look will bring into this office a much needed impetus. We have heard so much in the last few days about socialism and how it operates. Here we have State operated companies employing almost 45,000: CIE 20,000; B and I 1,200; Irish Shipping 617; Aer Lingus and Aerlínte 5,000; Aer Rianta 588; ESB approximately 10,000; Bord na Móna 6,000 and another 6,000 down in Shannon. The Government gave much needed consideration to the necessity of developing these organisations at times when it was desirable and necessary to ensure that services were operated which could not be operated by private enterprises. The Minister has here approximately 45,000 people for whom he is responsible and I am quite certain that with his views about workers, the workers and particularly the lower paid ones in the services I have mentioned will get a fair crack of the whip.

I should like the Minister's views on a matter which I find rather disgusting. Very often we are told the Minister has no responsibility for the day to-day functions of particular concerns but we have very much responsibility on this particular day while this Estimate is being discussed. I do not know how far we can go into the affairs of the ESB, CIE, Irish Shipping and Aer Lingus but it is appalling that having voted £2 million or £3 million for these concerns we are told the Minister has no function and you cannot get a reply to a question in regard to mismanaging which occasionally takes place. In general, the management is satisfactory but there are exceptions. The time has come when we should have another look at this matter of the Minister having no responsibility for the day to-day functions of State bodies. If we provide the money for the operation of services we are entitled to make our views known in regard to the efficiency with which these services operate.

Mr. P. Belton

Hear hear.

Mr. Dowling

We also see small print on the bottom of application forms for employment which says: "Canvassing will disqualify." What does this mean? Very often one gets a letter back from a person who not only canvassed but knocked down people in trying to get the job he holds, telling you that canvassing will disqualify. Does this mean that the concerns have no confidence in their personnel officers or interview boards? Interview boards—or some of them—are subject to many outside pressures from different religious groups that have indicated that they would seek to support people who are members of their groups. I think this provision should be removed. It is far healthier to see a person give a recommendation on behalf of an applicant for a job than the job to be filled in the golf club or a lounge bar or some select club.

Mr. P. Belton

Or the Fianna Fáil Party.

Mr. Dowling

These other methods should go by the board and if canvassing will disqualify then the personnel officers and interview boards should be examined to ensure that everything is strictly correct. It is an appalling situation. Quite recently a member of the Oireachtas got a letter from a personnel officer indicating that the person on whose behalf he had sent a character reference was disqualified. In fact, this means that if I get the names of three, four or five persons applying for a job and if I do not recommend one and recommend all the others, I automatically disqualify probably very efficient and competent persons and the person least competent because there was no canvassing on his behalf gets the job. This is ridiculous and the Minister should ensure that this small print provision is eliminated. It means nothing because canvassing takes place, if not at this level, at other levels less desirable. A person who gives a character reference such as is given by Members of the Oireachtas or other people is very desirable because at least the employers would know that there was someone to vouch that the candidate was a responsible and a respectable person. Having the provision that canvassing will disqualify shows complete disregard for the ability of interview boards or personnel officers.

Mr. Desmond

What does the Deputy mean by character reference?

Mr. Dowling

If I were giving the Deputy one it would not be too good. I would give Stevie a good one.

Mr. Desmond

A letter that the man should get the job?

Mr. Dowling

No, but an indication——

Mr. Desmond

What sort of ones does the Deputy give?

Mr. Dowling

The ones I give are all successful.

Mr. P.J. Burke

We are very glad to see Stevie back.

Mr. Dowling

We are certainly glad to see him here today.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Hear, hear.

Mr. Dowling

I have a number of problems in relation to the ESB to which I want the Minister to pay particular attention. They relate to my own area. I shall read a letter from the ESB and then explain the situation. It says:

Your letter of the 21st December addressed to Head Office about the electricity supply in Ballyfermot has come to me. We are quite aware that the voltage in parts of the Ballyfermot area is not quite as good as it should be. Much of the trouble arises from the very small mains which were originally provided to supply houses in the days when electricity consumption was very small.

Ballyfermot people pay the same price for electricity as consumers who are getting full value. This case is on a par with the grocer who gives underweight. If he does so, he is prosecuted or if one buys tea at a cheap price one gets inferior tea. Here, we have the ESB robbing the people of Ballyfermot because they are not giving the goods for which they are being paid.

I ask the Minister to submit this to the Fair Trade Commission and see what they say. If the ESB are unable to provide the full service the rate should be reduced for the people of the area. This applied to people not only in Ballyfermot but in other areas and again one is told that the lines were laid when electricity consumption was very low. That goes back a long time. These consumers must be protected and I ask the Minister to ensure, notwithstanding the guarantees or indications given, that the position will be rectified in the near future. These people have been overpaying for electricity for a considerable time. If they do not pay their bills they are cut off as many have been who should not have been cut off because, in fact, they were overcharged over a period by the ESB. I want to ensure that the people of Ballyfermot and Bluebell, who are also affected, will be protected and will get full value for their money or else that the actual power supplies will be checked and that they will pay in proportion to the supply they get. Many people in Ballyfermot have been disconnected and I am quite sure that if a check were made the ESB would owe them money because they were overcharged for years.

In relation to Ballyfermot and Bluebell I have a letter here which confirms that they are experiencing defective television reception. The sets have been checked and overhauled and the owners told there is nothing wrong. Quite a number of people in these areas cannot see television. It is appalling that people should be overcharged. I could cite other cases but I think what I have said will suffice to impress on the Minister the necessity to ensure that an adequate electricity supply is laid on in these areas or that they should pay in proportion to the amount of electricity they consume. I am sure there is no drop in power in the ESB offices; it would be a disgrace if there was. They have all the comforts, including good light, but the children in Ballyfermot and Bluebell are studying in defective light. This is a very serious matter and requires immediate action. I know the Minister will take up the matter and I hope something will be done to ensure that the overpayments already made will be rectified and that they will get credit notes where appropriate.

At this stage the ESB in conjunction with CIE should further examine the question of electricity being used as a source of power for the commuter services. In various other countries commuter services are operated in this way and there is no reason why an effective system should not be introduced here: whatever defects there may have been in the past, with present advances in technology both CIE and the ESB should be able to come up with some solution to the problem I would ask the Minister to look into this matter.

In regard to the city we see in many corporation schemes these small houses which have been erected by the ESB in people's gardens. They are scars in the city; they deprive areas of some degree of beauty and they have been put up with no thought either for the people or the neighbourhood. There are sufficient engineers in the ESB to enable a variety of designs to be produced which would be in keeping with the areas in which they were erected I note in the ESB's report that special consideration has been given to Turlough Hill. That is a long way away from Crumlin and Ballyfermot but the people in those areas are just as much entitled to consideration. At Turlough Hill they gave consideration to re-seeding and employed special landscaping personnel but it is a pity that they do not do the same in corporation and other areas. Their disregard in this respect is appalling. I have said here before—and I have said it at Dublin Corporation meetings —that we should not give these people permission to erect such structures unless they erect structures that will add some beauty to the area and not the type that is completely out of keeping with the surroundings. I also see in the report a nice picture of a housing development in Dublin with an under ground electricity supply. It is time the Minister——

Mr. P. Belton

But they charge very heavily for that.

Mr. Dowling

Whether they charge heavily or not we are entitled to that in other areas.

Mr. P. Belton

I agree.

Mr. Dowling

It is about time we had some general scheme whereby these overhead wires and some of the appalling poles which the ESB erect were removed. They can do it in some areas which, perhaps, are select areas but people have to live in other areas also and it should be done there too. It may be that the corporation or the county council have been too lax in allowing these poles to be erected ad lib but the day for overhead wires has long since gone and if they can have underground cables in some areas there is no reason why they should not have them in all areas.

Safety in factories is also mentioned in the report and this is a matter in which we all take a deep interest. I do not think the ESB are doing enough in regard to this matter and while they send around circulars to factories from time to time it is desirable that they should endeavour to get across to young children, particularly school children, the dangers that exist. The ESB should produce some literature which would reach the minds of the school children rather than indicating by means of large red signs ten or 12 feet off the ground, which, perhaps, nobody can see or read, that a pole is dangerous. Sometimes one would require binoculars to read these signs and, perhaps, children cannot read them or are not conversant with the signs and then there is grave danger. The board should reconsider their approach to this matter of notices which will suffice for adults but not for children. I will deal now with CIE and I am sorry that the Minister is not here because——

Mr. P.J. Burke

His deputy is here.

Mr. Geoghegan

Surely he is entitled to a cup of tea some time.

Mr. Dowling

I know that, but I wanted him to hear what I am going to say.

Mr. Geoghegan

It will be conveyed to him.

Mr. Dowling

CIE should consider the question of placing railway sidings at industrial estates, particularly at Ballyfermot and Bluebell where they are adjacent to the railway. By this means pressure on the roads could be relieved and CIE's income increased There is a very large tyre factory in Ballyfermot and we have a very large industrial estate going up in Ballyfermot and Bluebell and there is no reason why there should not be sidings there to carry goods to and from these areas and so relieve traffic on the roads. It may be that it is more profitable for CIE to transport by road but where we have industrial estates adjacent to main lines an effort should be made to relieve the pressure by providing these sidings. I would ask the Minister to give this matter serious consideration.

I also notice in CIE's report that they have meetings with tenants and housing associations and home surveys in relation to housing estates. For about 12 or 15 years I and other members of the corporation were seeking perimeter services particularly from Ballyfermot to the docks and to the Dún Laoghaire area which would link up Ballyfermot with Drimnagh Crumlin and so on. It took 15 years to convince them that this should be done although they had information from people well acquainted with the situation. We indicated that not alone would one bus be filled but several buses would be filled if such services were available but CIE indicated to us that this was a matter that would be considered in the distant future.

It took 15 years to get one particular service into operation. The time has come when perimeter services are both necessary and desirable. In order to extract more money from the workers CIE insist on bringing the workers into the centre of the city and out again into the suburbs. Workers have to travel 20 miles in order to get to their jobs, which may be only four miles from their homes, as the crow flies. That is the way CIE treat the workers. They give them no consideration at all. I asked CIE to lay on a service to take workers home at dinner hour from a factory and back again to the factory and they laid on a bus. They took it off again because, they said, there was no demand for it. The fact is they put the bus on during a holiday period in the factory. This is another example of the kind of incompetence to which I referred earlier.

We are all agreed that perimeter services are necessary to keep the pressure off the centre of the city and ensure that workers get from one point to another in the shortest possible time. They do not want to spend their lives in CIE buses pumping their hard earned money into the CIE transport system.

The figures produced this year are rather interesting. Dublin city services made £177,000 profit. That is a substantial sum. Much of it was extracted because of the failure of CIE to provide the sort of service that is so necessary and desirable. Were they to provide these services passenger traffic would increase and the profit might be £277,000 instead of £177,000. The provincial services yielded a profit of £637,000 and tours and private hire £196,000. There was a loss on the canal of £72,000. The canal is in an appalling state. It constitutes a health hazard. If CIE want to keep the canal then they have a responsibility to maintain it in a reasonable state of cleanliness. At the moment it is an open sewer from Inchicore to James's Basin. There are stretches which have been cleaned, the fashionable stretches at Mespil Road and Leeson Street, but the stretches running through the housing estates are left quite unattended. Every kind of junk is dumped into them—dead dogs, old bicycles, old beds, and so on. The people in Inchicore and Bluebell are as much entitled to have the canal cleaned as the people in Mespil Road and Leeson Street. I have nothing against these people; more luck to them if they can get CIE to clean the canal.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): There must be members of Taca down there.

Mr. Dowling

That could be. But there are members of Taca in my area too. There are members of Fine Gael in it and I would not like to tell you how they get the money. There must be uniformity in the services provided and, if pressures are brought to bear, the services will be provided. The canal is an important section from the first to the ninth lock. It must be maintained and the health hazard that exists must be eliminated.

I should like to say a word or two about the management of CIE. In 1952 fuel costs per mile worked out at 39.74 pence; in 1969 the cost has been reduced to 9.64 pence. That is a very substantial reduction. In 1952 the cost was £1,600,000 and in 1969 it was £334,000, possibly with much the same service. Economies are being effected. With regard to trains, there was 94 per cent punctuality with increased passenger traffic. In 1962 the percentage was 83. That is a very creditable improvement. I am a little puzzled by the reduction in the number of passenger coaches from 643 to 418 carrying substantially more passengers. There must have been gross inefficiency somewhere in the past. If the volume of traffic increases we will be looking for some of the coaches we sold just as we are looking for some of the men who were let go because of redundancy.

The improved use of freight wagons is very credible. There has been an increase in tonnage from 62,510 to 3,271,000. There has been an increase in road traffic from 200,000 to 1,017,000 tons. That clearly shows that there are sections in CIE which are becoming more efficient and it is, therefore, very hard to understand, particularly from the point of view of fuel, which was a big cost element, why there should be any working loss on operations. As I said before, I think there are computer services which could be operated by the use of some home-produced power such as electricity and CIE could very well examine this and see if, at this stage, it could be implemented.

The CIE tours programme for next year is certainly a very creditable one. Their "Programme for 1970" is a 43 page booklet and it gives an indication of the amount of thought and interest that has gone into this particular aspect of tourism in an effort to increase their revenue by way of tours. If Deputies have not already seen the book it is well worth examining in detail. It is very well presented and I believe that as a result of this we will have many more tourists.

I mentioned before but I want to mention again the appalling situation that exists in relation to CIE pensioners. These are men who have been on pension for quite a considerable time, men who have given the best years of their service to CIE, men with 20 and 30 years service, men who kept the railway running in the dark and difficult days. They accepted pay cuts in order to ensure that the railway service would be maintained. At the end of their days are entitled to much more consideration than they are being given at the moment by the management of CIE.

When you bring in auditors and other people to examine a pension system they examine digits only and have no regard at all for individuals. They have no regard for the service that has been given by individuals. They have no regard for the hardships that were endured by individuals in cold and dirty and filthy workshops throughout the years, in smoke and cold and all the other dirt that was piled on in the very bad conditions under which these men had to work. At this stage, when there is a very large pension fund which is yielding good profits, someone should think of the few men who are still left, the men who stood there in those dark and difficult days and gave their services freely—they were real, true railway men—in order to ensure the maintenance of CIE.

The consultants who were brought in were probably never in a railway office before. Possibly they know little or nothing about the type of men who were employed in CIE in those days. Many of them are now receiving 25/-a week after 40 years service. This is not good enough with a substantial pension fund at their back and at least a substantial payment could be made to the few who remain at the moment instead of a miserable increase from time to time of 2/6d or 5/-.

The man with 40 years service gets a cheque from CIE at the end of the week for 25/-. I have here a CIE cheque: "Pay bearer 25/-", after 40 years service in hard times. I want to appeal on behalf of this section. The other sections have people to speak on their behalf, and speak very forcibly on their behalf. The trade union organisations and the other organisations to which they belong will take up the case on their behalf. They are still employed so there is still time to ensure that they get fair and adequate compensation for the services they are giving.

These people who have given their services in much more difficult times should now get the recognition they truly deserve. The Minister is well acquainted with the position in Athlone and the other railway towns and I am sure his sympathy for railway men is very extensive. In his own town, like the other towns he represents, there are very many retired railway men existing on pensions. I will not go over all the ground. I spoke to the Minister recently in connection with this problem as, indeed, did many other members of this Party who are interested in the lot of the weaker section of the community, the men who are getting a miserable 25/- after 30 or 40 years service.

There are defects in the CIE system. I have mentioned the good points, the economies that have been effected, but I think that if they effect economics and produce a situation where there is unrest among the working personnel, then we have reached an unsatisfactory stage.

We read in the report about the staff training which is directed mainly to skilled personnel. We also have in the service unskilled and semi-skilled personnel. The same concessions and the same consideration should be given to the weaker section, that is the semi-skilled and the unskilled. These people are on a very low wage rate. These are the people who are forgotten and, when redundancy comes, or when the time time comes to lay off personnel, the labourer "gets the knock" first. You never hear of managers being sacked. It is always the labourer or the tradesman or the semi-skilled man. You can have an abundance of managers and if you want to get rid of a manager you have to promote him. You get rid of a man by putting him outside the gate. This is the general pattern.

When we see in the report that consideration has been given to the skilled section, further consideration should be given to the semi-skilled and the unskilled workers who have also given very exceptional service to CIE down through the years, sometimes doing very dirty jobs and getting to consideration whatsoever for that. I mentioned on a previous occasion that there are labourers in CIE who clean a very dirty job when it comes in and do not get dirty money for it, but the man who does the job after it is cleaned gets dirty money because the job is dirty. This to me is nonsensical. The man who does the dirty work should get some compensation for doing exceptionally dirty work but just because he is a labourer he is disregarded, and because he has greater power behind him a tradesman or a man in another position gets a concession. It seems completely wrong to me that the man who really cleans up the dirt does not get dirty money while the man who takes it over after it is cleaned gets the concession from CIE.

I come now to the question of the Dublin bus services and traffic congestion. In the CIE report it is indicated that the number of lost journeys increased by 100 per cent over the previous year due to the increase in traffic difficulties, but the traffic difficulties were created by themselves. CIE have got extra large buses, buses which are completely unsuited to some of the routes they are on because of their width. It has been established that the buses are too large for some of the journeys. CIE are congesting the city themselves and losing revenue as a result. They are responsible for this 100 per cent increase in lost journeys. The Minister should take up that point and ensure that we get these perimeter services.

I want to deal now with the black death that is pumped out by these buses. It has been spoken about by a number of Members of this House. They have mentioned the pollution of diesel fumes which are blown out when the buses are taking off. Recently I had to request CIE to remove a bus stop from outside a man's door in Mourne Road because he could not sleep at night with the filthy fumes of CIE buses coming into his bedroom. It is an appalling state of affairs to have a terminus with buses pumping black death into a man's bedroom, into a man's house. He was unable to sleep in the front bedroom and had to move to the back of the house. This happens in many places where the buses park in built-up areas. If they park outside a house while the bus stop itself may be convenient there is a health hazard to the families in the neighbourhood. I was in this man's house on one occasion and the door was open. The bus was about to move off and the house was filled with fumes for about 30 minutes. CIE eventually moved the bus stop from that man's door but they put it outside another man's door.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I was about to say that.

Mr. Dowling

Something must be done to ensure that this black death which we see pumped around the city is controlled in some way or other. Some of the big trucks have their exhaust pipes pointing skywards so at least it is going into the atmosphere center away. This is not the case in relation to CIE. They are content to blast the people off the footpaths with their exhaust gases. There are good points and bad points in that particular outfit. I hope the Minister will rectify the matter I mentioned about the pensions and that he will have another look at the workshops.

I want to refer now to the workshops of CIE, Aer Lingus, the Shannon Free Airport Company and the ESB. On a previous occasion Members of the Dáil and Seanad were taken around Aer Lingus and got an insight into the working of the various services. Similar facilities were afforded by CIE. Seeing that this is a new Dáil I should like an opportunity to go back again and ask some question which I should like to have asked on the last occasion and did not ask the managements of the various concerns, and I hope it will not be said these question concern the day-to-day functions of the management and cannot be answered. If we could get the information we require by making these tours it might not be necessary to take up so much valuable time here in Dáil Éireann.

I am very much impressed by the manner in which the B and I concern is being run by the management. There is a case here for some co-ordination between Aer Lingus, the B and I and, indeed, CIE in relation to tourist traffic. It would appear from reading reports that one is competing against the other. This co-ordination would ensure that the best would be got out of all the services.

The Members of this House went down to the Shannon Free Airport on a previous occasion and I should like to go back there to see what improvements have been made since we were there, to see the development of the town centre. There is much to be learned by members of the local authorities and Members of this House in relation to population growth, housing and amenity problems that exist in the development of a new town. The growth in the number of personnel employed in Shannon Free Airport is considerable. It shows the wisdom of this development and it is one of which we can be justly proud. The total number of personnel employed there, according to the latest report circulated, is 6,687. It has probably increased since then.

The big factor about the Shannon Industrial Estate is the degree of skilled labour. The male labour content is higher than the female labour content and this ensures an increase in the number of families moving into the area and the development of family life. The report also says: "Vital also to the development is the physical and social environment in which industry must operate." This is a very important factor which is often overlooked. A factory is provided for workers but no consideration is given to factors that should get attention, social environment and so on. Much can be learned from the development in this area of Shannon which can be applied elsewhere in the development of industrial estates which are a common thing nowadays in the country. In my area there are industrial estates at Bluebell and Ballyfermot. These industrial estates have problems and it is only by examining the problems and seeing how these problems have been solved in the past that we can give effective advice.

Many people believe that the firms which have been established in the Shannon Free Airport are all foreign firms. Details are given here of the countries of origin of the firms established at March, 1969: United States, 16; Ireland, 15; Great Britain, 7; South Africa, 2; Netherlands, 1; France, 1; Germany, 1. That is a total of 43; 24 of these are manufacturing and 19 are warehouse. The impression that had been created was that these were all Irish firms and that very little Irish development had taken place in this area. As the industrial area on the perimeter has been expanding, there is great hope for further development there. The export trade figures as at 31st December, 1968, were as follows: by air, £30 million as against £11.2 million in 1964; by surface, £4.6 million as compared with £2.9 million in 1964. That is a total of £35.2 million in 1968 as against £14.1 million in 1964. When we visited Shannon on a previous occasion we saw the people at work in the factories and got a comprehensive picture of the situation as it existed there. I hope we shall have an opportunity of seeing the up-to-date developments at Shannon.

It is a great pleasure to read the Aer Lingus report. It shows that the foresight and the persistence of Seán Lemass has been amply rewarded in the development of Aer Lingus. When we see down through the years the ever-increasing number of people employed there, the conditions under which they are employed and the valuable work which is given to Irish technicians, one can feel proud of the party which has made such an excellent contribution. According to the report, the total number of personnel is 5,207. It says in regard to the working agreements between trade unions and management that these agreements have been of great advantage to both the staff and the airline and they are pleased to report another year in which there were no man hours lost because of industrial disputes. It is heartening to see a realistic management examining in detail with responsible workers and responsible trade union officials the future pattern and targets of Aer Lingus in relation to future traffic and examining the wage structure. It is heartening to note that there were no man hours lost in the year referred to in the report.

The report also says:

All our employees are aware of the positive attitude towards improving gradually their standard of living as our prosperity allows.

It is a pity that other people would not take a leaf out of the book of Aer Lingus and carry out an examination on a realistic basis. If Aer Lingus can do it, there is no reason why other concerns could not draw up agreements. Some firms have done so but quite a number have put it on the long finger.

There are many excellent trade union officials who will give advice and guidance in relation to these problems. There are realistic managements and realistic Ministers like the Minister for Transport and Power, who will give all possible assistance in order to ensure freedom from industrial disruption, to guarantee services, to allow industries to operate disturbance-free, so that they can plan and provide adequate and uninterrupted service. This is the big factor in the Aer Lingus agreement. I am quite sure that the revisions that will take place from time to time will be carried out in a realistic manner also.

With the introduction of the jumbo jets I hope that at least one of the repair depots which will be required will be established in this country. Shannon is an ideal centre. We know the history of the Lockheed depot that was established and had to be withdrawn because of curtailment of the service in 1948. I trust the Minister will pursue the line of trying to establish with the manufacturers of the engines and fittings a repair depot in Ireland. That would give much needed and valuable employment to personnel who are highly qualified in this field, who have been trained by the Air Corps, have worked in Aer Lingus, have got excellent training and can be brought up-to-date in a short time by refresher courses.

It is very desirable that we should be in on the ground floor and not allow a situation to develop such as developed when the repair depot was removed from Shannon to Paris as a result of the sale of the Constellations. Aer Lingus has an excellent record and has given us excellent information in the report.

The question of the building that have been knocked down has been referred to by Deputy Belton. I would say that if Deputy Belton's party were in power, we probably would not need any buildings at all and there would be no need to knock down buildings in order to make room for development.

Bord Fáilte is a very important organisation that has been doing very excellent work. One is impressed by the view expressed by the chairman, Mr. Brendan O'Regan, that Bord Fáilte is conscious of the danger associated with sacrificing too much of our way of life in order to attract an increasing volume of business; that it is realised that, while the world is fast becoming one, there are many good reasons why people should not lose their own identities. It is very important in relation to tourism that we would not allow our seaside resorts to develop into the type of resort one sees abroad and that our cities should not become scarred by honky tonks that are prevalent here and elsewhere, and that a realistic assessment would be made of what we have, of our culture, and the things that we should retain.

It is desirable that the tourist season should be extended. I am quite sure that trade unions will co-operate in this matter. We are all aware of the very valuable contributions that have been made towards this end but it is necessary still further to extend the tourist season in order to ensure continuity of employment. Every effort should be made to maintain Irish workers in full-time employment.

From time to time there are issues of stamps. Some of the issues have been appalling. I suggest that there be a stamp depicting our beauty spots. This might have the effect of attracting visitors. This may not be any function of the Minister. Bord Fáilte show excellent pictures of Ireland in their many publications. I suggest that these might be used by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs for stamp designs.

I want to say how glad I am to see the Minister in this position. I know that he is concerned about the poorer sections of the community and about the workers and particularly the 45,000 workers in CIE, the B and I, the ESB, Bord na Móna and various other organisations. The Minister is very sympathetic and listens to our problems when we approach him and will take action to ensure that injustices are rectified. I have outlined a number of injustices and I hope they will get sympathetic consideration.

Mr. P. Belton

I was glad to hear Deputy Dowling inviting the Dáil down to Shannon again and out to Aer Lingus. I presume Paddy Burke will again buy me a ball of malt in Shannon.

Mr. P.J. Burke

No trouble, Paddy.

Mr. P. Belton

No trouble, at all.

Mr. Dowling

I work there.

Mr. P. Belton

This can be quite useful but if you do it too often it is no great advantage. The Minister said that CIE, the ESB, Bord na Móna and Aer Lingus employ 40,000 people which is two-thirds of the work force of the State bodies and that approximately £60 million to £70 million is paid out in wages. We also employ workers in Irish Shipping, the B and I, Bord Fáilte and the Shannon Free Airport Development Company. Therefore, I consider that the amount of people we employ must be nearly three-quarters rather than two-thirds. Therefore, this is a very important Estimate and much time should be given to it.

The Minister stated that the ESB have the cheapest rates in Europe. He then went on to say at column 1340 of volume 243, No. 8, of the Official Report:

Admittedly, there is cheaper power for big industrial users in Norway, Sweden and Switzerland but in these countries hydropower is prominent or predominates. British, French and Dutch tariffs for big industries give about the same order of costs to the user as those of the ESB.

There are very few countries left in Western Europe after that. He used industry when comparing prices. If one compares the cost of central heating by the ESB in Ireland with gas, oil or solid fuel it is completely uneconomic and nobody will take it. The builder will be charged so much for putting it in. If one goes to England or reads any magazines one can see that the cost of central heating in England is marginal. The Minister mentioned that prices have dropped from 2.14 pence in 1958 to 2.06 pence in 1968/69. If the ESB would cater for central heating on a larger scale it would save us quite a lot on imports and they could further reduce the charge.

We hear the ESB, particularly in the dry season, asking us to use electricity in the off-peak period; in other words, to have balanced consumption. Why do the ESB not give a special rate to catering businesses and shop windows for the off-peak period? I was on a deputation to the ESB about this. They said they would look into it. That is two years ago and they are still looking into it. They will do nothing about it. More electricity would be used for heating, lighting and advertising if the rate were cheaper in the off-peak period.

Deputy Dowling and Deputy Desmond mentioned something which Fine Gael have always asked for. It is that State bodies should produce their books and let us see them. I do not want a day-to-day account but I do want to see what they are doing, whether they are doing what they promised to do and what the Minister said in the Dáil they would do. If there is a mistake, let it be known. It is human nature to make mistakes and none of us is perfect. Let us see it. What are they afraid of? Why do they not let us see their accounts? Surely, if they are doing a proper job, there should be no fear?

We see from the Minister's statement that the interest and repayments of Exchequer advances to the ESB, air companies and Bord na Móna have been deferred. I agree with this, provided it is going back into capital expenses and giving worthwhile employment and saving money on fuel we would have to bring into the country. There is no objection to this, but surely the Dáil should see whether this money is being spent wisely or not? We can ask questions but we cannot check the report. If a businessman does not succeed, he goes bankrupt; he has to see an accountant; he must satisfy his shareholders; his employees will not stay with him if they feel he is not going well. I cannot see why the State companies do not act similarly. Unless we have Dáil supervision, there is no guarantee as to whether half the management are working or not. In the Fogarty Report we found out that there was no co-ordination or communication up and down. The only communication was up to top level but no communication back down.

In Dublin and in every town and village we have old roads that under the bye-law of the day had a light every 150 yards. The bye-law now insists on one every 75 yards but these areas have never been improved by the ESB. If one writes in about it he is told there is something more urgent to be done. This bad lighting causes accidents and there have been many attacks because of it—robberies, attacks on women and so on.

I agree with Deputy Dowling that underground wiring, which is expensive, should be the aim of the ESB. I know it costs more but a falling tree or a gale will not interfere with it as they will interfere with overhead wiring.

I often agree with Deputy Desmond but I completely disagree with him when he says that the ESB should compete with private enterprise in the selling of fridges and various things. The normal person who runs this type of business has the trouble, if he does hire-purchase, of getting hire-purchase finance. He then has the trouble of getting it collected. He may have to guarantee the purchaser. He must employ a staff to keep a note of it. He must employ collectors and even detectives in cases where people have gone off without paying. The ESB have a simple method. They add it to a person's bill and, if he does not pay, they cut off the electricity. Therefore, they have very small office charges and no trouble about collection. They are also able to give a cheaper interest rate because their cost of collection is less. They are in an unfair position. It would not be so bad if the ESB were not being financed by the Government: they are not being charged interest at certain times and are not paying any capital payments. All they have to do is make profit while the private individual has all these costs. If he does not make a profit he goes bankrupt but the ESB can lose for two or three years and then come back and make money.

Deputy Dowling mentioned Ballyfermot and Bluebell and said the electricity was bad there. He must be worried about the by-election coming up in that area. Santry, Beaumont, Killester, Donnycarney and Raheny have failures in electricity, too. At 7 o'clock in the evening the television will not work. The ESB came out to one case I had and said it was the fault of the television set, and the man told them to look up at the 100-watt light bulb instead. The ESB could not care less unless there was money in it for them.

It has been admitted by everybody that the car ferries have been a very successful aid to the tourist business. When a car driver comes into this country he basically wants to drive and see the countryside but he also wants a hotel room and somewhere to eat. I am not criticising Bord Fáilte but I think they must try and subsidise small restaurants in the various towns. Co-operation is needed between small enterprises in our towns and villages and with Bord Fáilte and the car ferries.

We have seen the figures of what is spent here by tourists but I wonder if it would be possible to get a breakdown of the money spent by Irish people when they go abroad for their summer holidays. An Irishman will probably go on holiday only every two or three years and he will be quite willing to spend his money.

Most industries under the aegis of the Minister for Transport and Power are semi-State industries. Even if CIE loses money we have to have it; with Aer Lingus it is much the same. An enormous amount of money could be derived from the tourist industry if we go about it in the center way. Bord Fáilte have done it correctly to date but I think they must branch out into other spheres.

Deputy T. O'Donnell in his speech —I must say I agreed with everything he said—spoke about extending the tourist season, and so did Deputy Kavanagh. Deputy T. O'Donnell spoke about angling and the promotion job Bord Fáilte have done. We also have hunting, golfing and shooting. Although these might be specialised groups I do not think we can turn our backs on any group that comes in. To my knowledge shooting and golfing start in November and finish around April. Angling can go on the whole year. We can offer facilities for all these sports during the winter months. Deputy T. O'Donnell said that the Germans and French are interested in angling as well as shooting and this is an area where we could get more tourists.

The Bord Fáilte report should not be a progress report as it is now because, by the time one reads it, it is history. The report should outline the board's policy for the future so that business people in the catering trades, and those allied to the catering trade, can plan accordingly.

Deputy T. O'Donnell also mentioned something which every Deputy, including Fianna Fáil members, will agree on, but the Cabinet and the Taoiseach will not admit that there should be a Parliamentary Committee to see that State bodies carry out their duties and obligations. The Government know this is center, yet they will not carry it out. Until we have it, there will be no control. The modern view in business today is that nobody will make profits unless a target is set for each individual.

A point mentioned by the Minister for Health, when he was acting for the Minister for Transport and Power, was that when grants were given they should not be published, particularly when given to families in small towns. I cannot see the point in this. I cannot agree with him. If a hotelier or any other business person gets a grant from the Government he is getting something for nothing. He may have to extend his business, but surely the ratepayers should know about it? Surely he should not worry about his name being in the paper? I know if someone gave me £200,000 tomorrow I would not care who knew about it. This idea of trying to hide some small person's grant is complete nonsense and unbusiness like. If it continues it will lead a lot of people, particularly on the Opposition benches, to think that it must be all Fianna Fáil people who are getting a grant. I cannot see any other reason for it.

Mr. B. Lenihan

We are not that enterprising.

Mr. P. Belton

A few Fianna Fáil people have got it anyway. This is what is going to come to a person's mind straight away. It might be all quite legitimate, no doubt it is, but at least show us that it is legitimate.

Deputy T. O'Donnell also mentioned package tours from England without accommodation. I know IATA are against this but we are in a very particular and unusual position in that there are probably one million people of Irish descent, and maybe four million people of Irish ancestry, living in England who cannot come back to Ireland very often unless they get a subsidised package deal. They usually book a boat and train ticket for £4 a head from various parts of England. I know hundreds of thousands of people in Coventry, Lincoln, Birmingham, Liverpool and London who would like to come home for a holiday. It would be a good idea if Aer Lingus developed package tours without accommodation, as most of these people will stay with friends or relatives, when they are here.

The tourist promotion bodies have to seek finance from various business people. They can get it for the hotel business because that will pay directly, but unless a new type of tourism is set up, apart from big hotels, a cheaper type of tourism, it probably does not pay. The smaller towns or businesses only get the side-effects of tourism. Until we can put a policy to the regional tourist boards that they can go out and sell to business people, they will not collect this money. I shall point out later how this should come about.

I put my name to a Fine Gael motion about CIE pensioners. These pensions are disgraceful. In England at present they are bringing in a new national pension scheme and we should introduce one very shortly. The pension should be at least 45 or 50 per cent of the salary prevailing at any given time. You can include the social welfare payment for contributory pensioners. The English scheme so far as I know provides for 45 per cent of the existing salary including social welfare, which will be wiped out as the new scheme will include everything. We should work on that. CIE pensioners have from 12/- to 22/- or 24/- on top of £3 15s. or so. Their total is about one-third or one-fourth of their wages.

Deputy Dowling referred to CIE and the bus services. I represent an area where a number of estates have been built. The houses are first built and then they think they will need schools and churches and so on. The same applies to a new area in Bonnybrook which has about 4,000 houses. The schools have just been opened but many children must travel back to their old schools in the city. This creates congestion on the buses. The bus service is provided piecemeal and when CIE do go into the estate you will find they will make that the terminus on the north side and then all the older estates will have no service, or they will have it in slack hours but not in busy hours and will have to queue for long periods.

We heard from Deputy O'Kennedy and Deputy Dowling about fumes from buses and lorries. I do not see how one can stop these but, like London, we could have a smokeless area. Where they had an average of two or three weeks of smog in London when you could not see for a week or ten days at a time that has been reduced in recent years to two days per annum because they introduced smokeless fuel. Also, if we are to develop tourism through angling we must ensure that river pollution is checked effectively. At present this problem does not seem to worry the Government. They say they have examined it but nothing has happened.

Some time ago Deputy Childers, now Minister for Health, mentioned that he would look into the possibility of having the old western line opened to areas like Cabra and Finglas and also that he would examine similar possibilities on the south side. We have heard no more of this. In Dublin at present we have the peculiar idea that everybody must start work at the same time and finish at the same time. While it is true that London has a bigger traffic crisis—probably due to financial interests, Civil Service and various big employment areas—they have staggered starting hours and finishing hours which means an even flow of traffic all day without congestion. As Deputy Dowling pointed out, there has been a 100 per cent increase in bus journeys which were not fully productive.

For a number of years a bus service crossing present traffic routes has been promised but nothing has been done about it. That applies particularly to the north side but also probably to the south side. On the north side there are factories in Coolock, Santry, Finglas and Cabra, all on perimeter bus routes. To get from Cabra to Finglas one must go into town or very near it and come back out again. The same applies to Coolock or Finglas. A man without motor transport takes an hour or 1½ hours to get to work. I think the required service could be introduced and be successful if it were introduced in the summer time because from Cabra to Finglas, to Ballymun, Santry and Coolock you can go on to the strand to which most northsiders go, Dollymount. Buses could be practically full all day on this route and the service could be cut in the winter period to suit business people and factory workers. I know people living in Howth working in Finglas, people in Donnycarney working in Cabra and all must go into town and out again if they go by bus. This increases costs and wastes time.

Bord Fáilte have done a tremendous job. They have given grants allowing hotels to be built but very often some of these hotels have not really catered for tourists but for local people. About eleven years ago we had a group of people coming to Ireland, working men from Wales, London and the north of England and the areas of Donnycarney, Fairview, Marino and Raheny had a tremendous influx of people for bed and breakfast. At that time any person in business, in a grocery or a publichouse or drapery in the area would tell you that during the summer months he got two English notes to one Irish pound note. These people were coming and spending quite a lot of money, as my example indicates, mostly in the local areas but also in the centre of the city. The reason this failed was that we put the price of drink up to the same level as in England. There is a difference between the strength here and that in England but basically the price is the same because of taxation.

When you go to Jersey or the Isle of Man you get cheaper drink and accommodation. Admittedly, the accommodation is of the bed and breakfast type and people have to leave after breakfast and not return until night-time. We must look for a different type of tourist and not just insist on the big business hotel where you have to pay anything from £20 to £100 per person per week. We must seek to attract the person who is only going to spend £12 or £13 on his digs and spend more elsewhere. If one goes to Spain one finds that they have the equivalent of the pension in France, where bed and breakfast is the normal thing and in some places they have self-service facilities attached. I feel we should have this self-service system here. Our hotels are inclined, and one cannot blame them too much, to seek full board, so that the person must stay for a week and have all his meals in the hotel.

However, the tendency throughout the world is completely different particularly on the European Continent where most English people are going and quite a few Irish people, as well of course, as the continentals themselves. The position there is that hotels are looking for bed and breakfast guests and they feel that what they lose to another hotel or restaurant will be made up by other people coming to them. The fact is that people visiting a country, and this obtains in this country too, leave their hotel or the place in which they are staying in the morning and they do not want to have to return six or eight miles to have their lunch and then go out again and have to return, perhaps, the same distance for their dinner. People want to be fancy-free. There is a German hotelier who only builds bedrooms— he does not even build a bar but has some kind of automatic dispenser— and a restaurant underneath the building and a person can have a choice of various types of food. Resorts in Ireland are lacking this. If you go to an hotel you are stuck there and if you eat meals there for three days it is the same chef who is preparing the food and you find that there is a sameness about it and you would prefer to go out for a change. If the bed and breakfast idea was developed you would then have rising up a lot of small restaurants run by chefs, small family concerns. This is something which could be created in many villages and towns.

The same applies to the car ferry. A man arrives here with his car and he likes to get an hotel as a base and then travel around and see the area and, perhaps, after a week move to another area, the south of Ireland, perhaps, and move around there. We are not catering for this type of movement at the moment and some type of subsidy could be granted, in small villages and towns to restaurants, pubs or small hotels where they would cater for this type of traffic. Although the cost of our luxury hotels is competitive with the cost in luxury hotels in other countries we still have this huge charge of £20 and up to £100 per person per week. However, we should also go in for flats or rooms that can be rented on a bed and breakfast basis or have flats with breakfast facilities included and so allow people to move around as they wish. In Paris, Berlin, on the Riviera and in Spain you have this set-up; it is the modern tendency and we must go after it and help to develop it by means of grants and loans.

While the length of our hotel a la carte menus is fabulous the cost through wastage and other factors is put up, whereas with a short menu the price could be kept down. This would make it more attractive to tourists and bring in a completely different type of tourist as well as the luxury tourist we are getting at present. The big trouble about all this is that we cannot do it today because our health laws are out of date. They were passed 20 or 30 years ago with a few points added to them from time to time. If tomorrow morning a restaurant or a licensed premises or any other catering group wanted to serve food the minimum size kitchen required in that place is 14 feet by 14 feet and there must be a separate place for preparing vegetables which must be 8 feet by 4 feet. In other words, you require something in the region of 200 or 300 square feet. This requirement was all center when vegetables came straight from the land but today new methods of producing food have been developed. In Dublin if you want to sell coffee, sandwiches and soup the health authority will not push you but, as the law stands, they could summons you because you must have a kitchen to do all this. That is the law.

In view of the many innovations that have come about there should be different types of licences for different varities of restaurants. To cut down costs, particularly in hot weather when only sandwiches or something similar are required, no licence should be necessary for providing sandwiches, coffee or soup. Soups, for instance, come in packets, are dehydrated and only require the addition of water. If you wanted to provide steak and bread with no vegetables all you want is a fridge and a grill and the premises should be licensed to that extent. This would cut down the cost of the items sold. Where frozen vegetables are being used no kitchen should be required. You could have disposable plates and the steak would go from the fridge to the grill. An innovation which came in about two or three years ago but which only came in here recently was the micro-wave grill. You require no delph and all you do is get the pre-packed pre-cooked meal out of the fridge, put it on the micro-wave grill and the meal is cooked in about two minutes but still you require a kitchen 14 feet by 14 feet and the preparing room 8 feet by 4 feet, which is 200-odd square feet.

The cost of that is somewhere in the region of £300. That is a great deal of money for the purpose of selling food which does not require any preparation. This could also lead—Deputy Tully has spoken about this on many occasions—to the development of a new industry here because these prepackaged food firms are working on the smallest possible plants and, if more were added, cost would be reduced and prices would come down. At the moment one can buy quite a good meal for 4/- as compared with the 12/-, 13/-, 14/-, 15/-, or 16/- one pays for lunch. In most licensed premises in Britain one can get two or three hot dishes and quite a few cold dishes. There they have no bother at all. But here we have these rules, which are completely outdated and which ask too much from the caterer. The only result is to put up the cost.

Until costs are brought down lower than the Channel Islands and continential countries we will not get this type of tourist, the kind of tourist who wants cheap accommodation and cheap food but is willing to spend money on other things. Americans pay in the States for their packaged tour and, when they get on an Aer Lingus plane, they want to know if the tea is free. They do not want to spend any more money. The ordinary English worker or the returned Irishman is not worried about whether the tea is free or not. He might worry about the price of a ball of malt, but he will spend money in the country.

Aer Lingus have a special rate for students. At the moment we have a high season from approximately June to September, with a semi-high for a month before and after that. As Deputy O'Donnell said, we should try to extend our season by introducing winter holidays with angling, shooting, hunting and so on. But that will not bring holiday-makers in great numbers. I suggest we should have specially reduced rates from Aer Lingus for people in the catering business who are engaged center through the summer. In that way those engaged in the catering trade would get a holiday. Sweden does this at the moment. It is not confined to the catering trade alone. Anybody at all can avail of these late holidays. The worker can have three weeks' holidays in the Canary Islands for £45. The fare from here is £105 or £106. With the present set-up and under the present system Aer Lingus have lost business. They get too many in the higher echelon. They should try to develop in the other direction. The Minister for Finance would have to co-operate by not making drink any dearer.

It was said here that when Aer Lingus took over Ryan's nobody knew about it. Months before the takeover the shares were on the market and they were getting dearer. I had a good idea why but I did not know absolutely until the announcement was made here in the Dáil. Aer Lingus have now joined up with another company which was short of liquid cash to the tune of £74 million. I have no objection to that if they see a future in this company. This may be a good deal. One would need to see the buildings before one could decide whether or not it was a good deal.

What center have Aer Lingus to reserve the parking space they do for car hire firms? People who go to Collinstown by private car must now park a mile away from the airport while the car hire firms can park close to the buildings. This car park is never full. It is never one-third full. If a friend takes a passenger to the airport he must drop the friend at the airport and then travel a mile down the road to find a parking space. On one occasion on which I was at the airport there were only two cars in the space reserved for car hire firms and, to make sure nobody would park there but the car hire firms, there was an Aer Lingus employee posted there. Was that parking space, I wonder, reserved in that way because Ryans joined them? Is there no thought for those who use the airline? It is disgraceful that Irish people who visit Collinstown should have to park a mile away from the airport.

The restaurant and snack bar do a tremendous business and a great deal of the money earned by Aer Lingus was made in the snack bar, the restaurant, the dance hall, the bar. The clients of this bar or restaurant or snack bar, and people going out to see the airport, have to walk a maximum of a mile—some of them, perhaps, have to walk only half a mile or a quarter of a mile. They have to walk this distance to the buildings at Collinstown. Even if it is pouring rain they have to walk and there is this space with room for about 200 or 300 cars rented, I presume, to car hire firms, which is never more than one-third full.

Because of things like this and also because of financial matters the State companies should be brought under the supervision of this Dáil. The State companies are successful. The Government have foregone interest and in some cases capital repayments. I can agree with this but I want to see why it is done. I want to know if it is correct. I want to know if the management have been careful enough or if there was wastage by management, or bad management. I cannot say at the moment whether there is bad management, but we have this one instance at Dublin Airport.

I do not think any Fianna Fáil Minister or any Deputy here would give an ideal parking space for people going into the building to a car hire company or group of companies which could do with a space further away, but they have this space. I think that all State companies and particularly the companies under the aegis of the Department of Transport and Power must be checked by a committee of this Dáil.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Tully.

Mr. Tully

With humble apologies to my gracious colleague.

Mr. Andrews

Will the Deputy keep going until 10.30?

Mr. Tully

Yes, as the Deputy knows I will be able to oblige him about that.

Mr. Andrews

I asked as a matter of courtesy from one Deputy to another.

Mr. Tully

The Ceann Comhairle might extend the time to 11 o'clock and I could manage that, too, if the Deputy is anxious.

Mr. Andrews

The Deputy will definitely go on until 10.30.

Mr. Tully

I will be particularly brief. There are a number of small points I want to mention. First of all, Bord Fáilte has been discussed and mentioned by quite a number of Deputies. As the House knows, a number of regional tourism organisations have been set up and I happen to be a member of the Eastern Regional Tourism Organisation. "Director" is the nice word used. It is one of those directorships which people are not terribly anxious to take on because of the fact that there are neither travelling expenses nor fees for attendance. However, those of us who are interested in tourism manage to attend the meetings and there are quite a number of interesting matters to be discussed.

In the organisations there are quite a number of people employed. It is rather extraordinary that there seems to be no general salary scale which would cover the employees of all the companies. There is a scale in Bord Fáilte and I think there should be a similar scale covering the employees of the regional tourism companies. It is rather extraordinary that the people in the regions are doing the same type of job and receiving a different rate of pay. I am told that Bord Fáilte usually pay fairly well. I think they should see to it that the same rate of pay is given to those who are employed by the regional tourism organisations.

There is a wastage from these organisations of people who are quite good. They do the job well but they realise after a short time that their rate of pay is not commensurate with the amount of work being done and, having proved that they can do a job well, outside organisations are prepared to pick them up and pay them. This means that the loss is pretty great and for that reason the Eastern Regional Tourism Organisation, in common with the other tourist organisations, are finding it difficult to keep people.

This should be straightened out. Discussions between the Minister, Bord Fáilte and the directors of the regions might possibly clear things up. It is purely a question of organisation. There is also the question of the amount of money being made available to the tourist organisations. We have now reached the stage—and the Minister can correct me when he is replying if he likes — that tourism is our second biggest money-spinner but we do not seem to be prepared to invest in tourism the same amount of money that we are investing in other industries in the State.

In fact, the employment given by tourism and a by-product of tourism is very great. This also seems to be ignored by the Government and the amount of money they give to tourism is relatively small. It is rather ridiculous to find the regional tourism organisations in particular sending out their officials to hoteliers and businessmen to ask them to invest. In other words, they are asking them to put money into the organisation and usually you find go-ahead people fairly active and fairly generous in giving money, but many people who get twice as much out of it will not invest any money at all in it. It is too bad that men and women should have to ask for this money and I believe that the Government should face up to their responsibility and realise that if they invest in tourism, tourism will repay them. I honestly believe we have reached the stage where something very much more than is being done at present will have to be done.

I do not propose to criticise Bord Fáilte severely but it has come to my notice that people who apply for grants for guesthouses, for hotels or for any of the other things for which Bord Fáilte give grants, are put in a rather peculiar position. First of all, the whole scheme is examined by Bord Fáilte officials. Approval is given for the scheme and half-way through it is not unusual for Bord Fáilte to say they want this kind of change or that kind of change and every change in structure is a change in cost.

I have seen people who started with jobs which were to cost, perhaps, £10,000 and finished up with jobs costing £15,000. Somebody started a job which was supposed to cost £3,000, a grant was allocated and a price agreed with the builder, and completely unnecessary work which could have been specified at the outset by Bord Fáilte if they felt that way has been added on, with the result that (a) the job is being delayed and (b) the cost has soared. Bord Fáilte should make up their minds and, like any other business firm, before the job starts decide what it will cost, decide what they want and decide what grant or loan will be allocated and leave it at that. The question of trying to make these people change their plans just because someone, perhaps a pretty junior member, decides he would like something different, should be cut out completely.

Reference was made by a number of Deputies to the necessity for providing sites of various kinds such as caravan sites and camping sites. This was referred to by Deputy O'Kennedy in detail. The bane of the lives of people who live in seaside areas is uncontrolled campers. I have no hesitation in saying this. Local authorities make arrangements to develop an area and put up signs saying "No camping""No caravans" and caravan and camping sites are made available.

Those people come along not in their twos and threes but in their twenties and I have personal experience of seeing them tying their guy ropes to the signs put up to tell them they should not camp there. There is no sanitary accommodation so anywhere outside the camp is sanitary accommodation for them. They light fires and use tins and bottles and throw them around. You would need a man full-time to collect after them. They are no addition to any area. There are people who go into a regular camping site in an area, who pay whatever small fee is required and look after the camping site.

Something will have to be done by the Government—apparently local authorities are unable to do it — to prevent a continuation of this system whereby these people who have no respect for authority can ruin a seaside resort by indiscriminate camping. Many of them have got into the habit of living off their neighbour. It becomes a question of going from one camp to another taking things belonging to each other and this often ends in a fist fight when somebody is caught doing it. This seems to be spreading and more stringent regulations will have to be made to govern the existing camping sites. We know of camping and caravan sites where far too many people are allowed to camp and too many camps are allowed for the limited amount of accommodation and amenities available. The owners of the caravan sites want to pick up as much money as they can as quickly as they can and they do not mind whether it gives a bad name to the area, with the result that many people leave in the middle of their week or fortnight's holiday and say they will never go back to the area again. Unfortunately they blame the area and not the people who own the site.

The question of hotels has been discussed and I know the Minister for Lands was holding forth last week on this question of whether the center type of hotel is being erected. Bord Fáilte have consistently stated it is wrong to suggest there are too many luxury hotels being built, but I feel the same as the Minister for Lands, Deputy Seán Flanagan, does. The middle type of accommodation is what is needed for most people who come here. Some of the existing hotels that are just the middle type of accommodation seem to think they can move into the luxury class by charging luxury prices. I would not take the CIE hotels out of that category because the mere fact that they happen to be in an area to which American tourists may come gives them the idea that everybody should be prepared to pay the amount of money which the Americans are prepared to pay. I consider it scandalous that £8 should be charged for a small room with two single beds head to head, with breakfast 10/- extra. This means that if a man and his wife go into one of these hotels in summer-time it will cost them £9 per night for a room which is by no means luxurious. This kind of thing is being overdone at the present time.

There is a shortage of hotels of a certain type in many areas. It has not been possible to encourage people in this country who have money to build hotels. If one encourages foreigners to build hotels, the cry goes up that we are selling out the country. The only solution I can see is for the State to take a hand and, as is done in many other countries, erect a State hotel which I am sure would more than pay its way.

The ESB has been mentioned, and I am amazed at what is happening at present. It is all center to say the rural population are not paying an economic price for their electricity but they are Irish citizens and if some rural people are getting electricity and being subsidised why should others living in almost the same circumstances be refused and electricity connection merely because years ago when the area was originally being connected they or the people who owned the house before them did not accept service?

This is the usual story put out by the ESB. They do not say they have not the money. They say it is proposed to recanvass the area in three or four years time and the person's application will be considered then. Many of these people who need electricity for dairy farming or, indeed, perhaps far more important than anything else, for their own household, will be told there is a shortage of labour. If there is a shortage of labour with 66,000 people on the unemployment register I do not know exactly what the ESB want. If there is a shortage of money the ESB should tell the people concerned: "We haven't the money. When we have we will do the job". It is ridiculous because somebody refused to accept a connection to a house in 1956 or 1957, that somebody else who has now bought the house should be refused a connection. When a new house is erected it seems to be in some circumstances easy enough to get a connection whereas an existing house will not get it so easily.

The exception seems to be the county council cottage. If the local authority erect a house for some unfortunate family it is not fair for the ESB to say: "We cannot connect that house." In my own area one family of 11 people who moved out of a very bad house which had electricity have not so far been able to get a connection to the new house. It is bad enough for people who were never used to electricity to be without it but it is ridiculous in 1970 that people who were used to electricity should have to depend on lamps and candles. Some arrangement should be made between the local authorities and the ESB to make a connection particularly where the house is not out on an island or on the side of a mountain. I am talking about flat County Meath where the nearest connection would not be more than a quarter of a mile away.

On one occasion when people, dairy farmers, required electricity for cooling milk, having been told the creamery would not take the milk from them unless they had a special cooler installed, the then Minister for Transport and Power, Deputy Childers, sent me a letter to tell me they could get bottled gas. When I asked him how they could cool the milk with bottled gas he sent an expert who was selling gas to tell me there was an elaborate system whereby they could employ a diesel motor with bottled gas and eventually the milk would be cooled. In fact, it would be much cheaper for the people to sell the cows or give them away because it would cost them more money to cool the milk than they would get from the creamery.

I have a letter from the ESB dated 9th January, 1970, which was addressed to Mrs. Agnes Somebody:

Dear Madam,

Thank you for your letter of 14th ultimo regarding above. Having investigated the position, supply can only be extended to this man... on payment of a contribution of £274 as he did not previously have an electricity account in his name.

A two-monthly special service charge of £1 2s 9d together with the normal two-monthly fixed charge of £1 2s which is based on the floor area would also apply.

The payment of £274 would be subject to a refund when... ...rural area in which Mr ... lives is being redeveloped under Planned Post Development. The special service charge and the prevailing fixed charge would, however, continue to apply.

Is that reasonable? Is it reasonable to suggest that somebody should be asked to pay £274 in order to get connection? This sort of thing makes a joke of an applicant. In effect, the board is saying that it will not give the supply and, in case it might be accused of not giving it, naming a figure which it knows the applicant cannot pay.

There has been a dispute in operation for several months between a certain section of the employees and the ESB. I shall not take sides. I mentioned it here before. I do not know who is center and who is wrong. I do not know enough about it. I do know, however, that a number of people are getting the nearest thing to free electricity until the strike is settled and then they will find that they owe more for electricity than they would earn in 12 months. Granted, instructions have been issued by the board that consumers can pay the usual amount.

Mr. P.J. Burke

They can pay some.

Mr. Tully

There are a great many people who are not built that way and who adopt the attitude that there is no charge, so they will go ahead and use electricity. They have it in the back of their minds that the day of reckoning will come, that they will have to pay when the strike is settled. When the strike is settled, people will be getting bills for the £274 referred to in another connection, or sums of that magnitude. The consumer will be told the sum that is due and that he must pay it forthwith. What idea have the board about this matter? Will the gentlemen with the pliers be working overtime disconnecting supply all over the country? This is a matter that should be explained. So far nobody has taken his courage in his hands and said to the consumers that they should make some attempt to keep their bills down, that otherwise they will be enormous. Perhaps what I am saying is not very popular. There is no use in people who do not know anything about the matter offering comments. I know very little about it but I do know of numerous people who have not paid their ESB bills and who say that when they get a proper bill they will consider it. Apparently they do not understand that a bill that is normally £10 for two months will be £60 over a 12-month period.

There is another aspect of this matter. People who normally counted the units they were consuming when they were paying every two months and who do not now have to count the units because they do not have to reckon at the end of a two-month period how much they have to pay, will tend to use much more electricity than they did formerly. It is a very serious situation. I do not want the Minister to get the impression that I am blaming him for this. I am not. It is something which has to be mentioned. The Minister should attempt to do something about it. It may be said that the matter will settle itself. It will not. Somebody must eventually settle the dispute because, no matter how long a strike may last — I have personal experience of this—eventually the people concerned have to sit around a table and settle it. There must be some system of arbitration which will settle that dispute.

What arrangement will be made in regard to the payment of electricity accounts? Will payment be spread over a period? Will people be given an opportunity to pay? Many people have died; many people have left an area. The board, although they may not know it, will lose considerably, no matter in what way the dispute is settled, when this whole thing is finished. It is serious enough to have some special effort made by the Minister.

Mr. B. Lenihan

There is very fruitful discussion going on at the moment.

Mr. Tully

I am delighted to hear it. Every time a dispute occurs and is mentioned in this House, there are fruitful discussions going on somewhere but when the discussions are over the fruit turns into dead sea fruit and we are back where we started. I hope the Minister is center.

Mr. P. Barry

They may settle the strike but not what Deputy Tully is talking about in regard to electricity bills.

Mr. Tully

I hope the Minister will be able to do something about this.

I now come to the question of CIE buses. I can never forgive the Minister's predecessor for the rape of the railways. Railways were torn up. It may be argued that railways must be made to pay. Nobody suggests that water and sewerage schemes should be made to pay. They are a social service. The same applies to a system of transport. The rape of the railways will be remembered for many years after the Minister may be forgotten. The trouble is that, having gone as far as anybody could possibly go with the railways, the next effort now is to have a "go" at the buses. It has recently been brought to my notice that one or two bus services that have been in operation up to now in my constituency will be changed. The buses will not run as frequently but the route will be covered. Is it not grand to tell somebody who for the last 20 years has travelled on a bus that left his home village at 7.30 a.m. and got into the town where he worked at 8 a.m. that he does not have to worry because that bus has been taken off; that another bus will go at 10 a.m. and that he can travel on that? They do not have to tear up the roads, but it is the same thing. I would ask the Minister to find out from CIE is it true that this is being done, that the bus service from Slane to Drogheda is being so changed that workers will not be able to get to their work on time?

There is something else happening. The Minister might say, or the Leas-Cheann Comhairle might say, that this has nothing to do with this debate. I want to refer to schools buses. There are CIE employees driving school buses, on a limited driver's licence. The trouble about it is that they have employed men, boys and girls, who have been given a test. They are driving the buses and doing a good job but because of the fact that they are working only 5½ or maybe four hours a day, the amount of money they are getting is terribly small. It may be argued that they are only part-time workers and that so far they have not been members of a trade union but the facts are that this is the job they do and most of them are doing it because they require the money in order to live. They stamp an insurance card. They are off during the holiday periods, for which they are not paid. The Minister must talk to CIE and tell them — because nobody has done it so far — that even although these people are part-time workers they are entitled to get a fair return for working on a job. They are jacks of all trades. In addition to driving the bus, they clean it, wash it, service it, test brakes, test tyres and all that sort of thing. Whether they are men or women, they are required to do this and are paid a little extra for it.

Rates vary from one area to another. To leave the fixing of rates to somebody at local level is not good enough. These people are doing a job for which they should be paid adequately. If not, what will happen is that these people will eventually become members of a trade union and then make a demand on CIE and there will be all sorts of trouble before CIE will realise that they are doing a good job and should be paid for it. I am not blaming the Minister. I am bringing the matter to his notice because it is a matter to which he should pay attention.

Reference is made in the Minister's speech to harbours and the amount of money being spent on them. I know that Deputy Burke will hold forth on some of the harbours in his area. Meath County Council have agreed to allow Drogheda Harbour Commissioners to extend Drogheda Harbour into Mornington. While it will affect a certain tourist area there, we believe that this must be done in order to allow ships in and out of Drogheda. A new jetty, marshalling yards and all the rest are required. There is a certain Government grant. Louth and Meath County Councils are lending a certain amount of money for the job.

One of the things that causes a certain amount of trouble is the fact that harbours do not seem to be supported by the local towns. I noticed in one of the papers the other day that somebody appealed to the people of this town to support the harbour. It is idle having business people sitting on harbour boards and then sending to Dublin or somewhere for the material which they are importing or exporting. This is rather stupid. They would be doing a good turn for their town and for the harbour if they succeeded in getting whatever material they require in and out through that particular harbour. Since we are an island country we have more affinity with the sea than most people realise. An effort should be made to use our harbours throughout the country much more. I am not saying that Dublin or Cork should be completely ignored. I drive from outside Drogheda to Dublin every day. It seems ridiculous to me to see our roads being chocked up with dozens of heavily laden lorries carrying material from Dublin port down the country and carrying it in to Dublin port when it could be brought in through Drogheda, Dundalk or Greenore. This is something the Minister should try to encourage.

We have always said here that the Aer Lingus service, anywhere we travel, was tops. Last year I got a complaint from people who had travelled by Aer Lingus plane to Jersey on holidays. A fog came down and, while all the other airlines flying in and out of Jersey made provision for hotel accommodation for the people who had been unable to travel, Aer Lingus left their passengers sitting in the airport lounge. They were there a night and a day and the next night Aer Lingus said they would pay for hotel accommodation for them for the second night, something they should have done on the first night. This leaves a bad taste. Many of these people said: "If we were ever flying again, we would not use an Aer Lingus plane because of this treatment". That is a simple matter but——

Mr. B. Lenihan

It should not happen.

Mr. Tully

——it should not happen. Many of these people were able to go and pay for hotel accommodation themselves but we all know of people who come back from holidays without a halfpenny. Some of these people had not the price of a cup of tea, I understand, and but for the generosity of their fellow passengers would have been left without food until the following evening when Aer Lingus then paid for a meal.

Mr. R. Barry

Apart from the lack of money, there was the fact that they could not get in touch with their people to say whether they were coming home or not.

Mr. Tully

One of the people concerned phoned me at home and he complained to me that they had been there two days. All the other air services were flying planes out of Jersey but Aer Lingus did not send a plane over to take them out. When Aer Lingus was asked about this they said that they were not aware that the fog had cleared sufficiently in Jersey and by the time they got a plane over, the fog had come down again so they had to wait another night.

On the other side of the coin I am aware that people came into Dublin Airport in the middle of the night and there was a mix-up about cases. The people were delayed for two and a half hours and Aer Lingus sent taxis with them to the farthest part of Ireland — an expensive thing, but something on which we must compliment them.

Mr. B. Lenihan

That is their usual practice. I am surprised about the other incident but I shall look into it.

Mr. Tully

I can give the Minister more details about that if he wishes. Possibly somebody chartered that plane but it was Aer Lingus who suffered because it was their plane. I should like to know if the system by which Aer Lingus hires out planes during the off-season still continues.

Mr. B. Lenihan

It does. It is a very lucrative business.

Mr. Tully

My information is that Aer Lingus showed a fairly substantial profit but when it was analysed it was discovered that the only profit made was on the planes which were hired abroad. They made a substantial profit in South America.

Mr. B. Lenihan

The Caribbean area generally. It is good business.

Mr. Tully

Is it good business?

Mr. B. Lenihan

Oh, yes.

Mr. Tully

Is it not something like Irish Shipping where Irish ships are used as trampships in South American ports?

Mr. B. Lenihan

No. All the planes are fully employed in the busy season during the summer but, when there are surplus planes during the off-season, the obvious thing to do is to hire them out.

Mr. Tully

It makes money. I would not be happy about how these planes are serviced and treated when they are abroad. There are so many accidents. Thank God, Aer Lingus have had very few. It would be too bad if safety was overlooked just because it was necessary to make a profit.

I should like to mention the question of the airport charge. I know it has become recognised internationally that one goes to an airport, gets off the plane, goes somewhere and when one comes back one is charged 10/-or £1. Is there any possibility of having this tied in with the fare? One does not mind so much if there is an extra 10/- on the fare but to pay a fare and then arrive at the airport and have to pay another 10/- to board the plane——

Mr. B. Lenihan

We are working on this one, too.

Mr. Tully

Good for you. I hope you are successful because it is a nuisance. I am sorry to have kept Deputy Paddy Burke waiting——

Mr. B. Lenihan

He is the Deputy for Dublin Airport, you know.

Mr. Tully

He will not mind getting in the morning. He will get tomorrow's newspapers. It is only people like me who speak at 10.30 at night. One gets no publicity then.

I am greatful that the Minister has continued the arrangement whereby Bord na Móna are being treated like other semi-State bodies and not asked to pay interest. This has resulted in a situation where Bord na Móna have been able to breathe. They are employing a large number of people. Something happened a few years ago which was costly for all of us—Bord na Móna, the trade unions concerned, as well as the people employed — when somebody said £1 million profit had been made. It had not, because by the time interest was paid they were in the red. It caused a strike which cost a lot of money. They have now made an offer which has been accepted and I hope this will solve the problem. The Minister might talk to the heads of semi-State bodies and impress on them that, while it may impress their board of directors or a certain number of people who are present at a meeting to say that a great deal of money has been made, if it is not true it should not be said. Aer Lingus and Aerlínte show an operating profit, but in fact they are not making a profit. These things should be explained to the workers. Workers usually find it very difficult to live on whatever wage they are getting and, when they hear their firm declare that they have made a great big profit in the previous year, naturally they want to get a few bob more to help pay the rent. This has been happening in semi-State bodies and I think some effort should be made to try and prevent it being repeated.

Whenever the Minister's predecessor did not want to answer a parliamentary question he usually said that this concerned the day-to-day business of the firm and, therefore, he was not prepared to answer the question. May we take it that if the present Minister is asked a reasonable question about a semi-State body he will be prepared to give a reasonable answer. I think this could be done without breaking his heart, breaking any confidence with the people concerned or breaking any regulations of this House.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Let the Deputy put down his question.

Mr. Tully

Thank you very much.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I look upon this Estimate as one of the most important. I do not feel the Minister is getting enough money to develop Bord Fáilte. This industry is worth almost £100 million to our country, and it contributes to our balance of payments. We should be doing more to encourage greater numbers of people to come into the country. If we do not encourage middle-class people into the country, by supplying them with modern guest houses at reasonable prices, we shall be left by the wayside.

I am anxious that the Minister consider giving grants to public houses willing to supply light meals and snacks. Places offering such meals could be registered with Bord Fáilte. Many of our public houses require modernising. Some have no toilets of any kind and when a tourist calls at such a place he is told: "If you go out, turn center, then left and keep going". I believe this sort of thing is responsible for the adverse criticism made by tourists about this country. Bord Fáilte should encourage the owners of public houses to modernise their premises. The local authorities have so many things to do that it is impossible for them to do any more. Bord Fáilte have been developing Skerries for about ten years and the local authority has co-operated as much as it can.

The Minister should get more money for Bord Fáilte in the interests of the nation, so that we can go all out and make our £100 million up to £200 million. We are subsidising a number of other industries which are not paying us as well as our tourist industry. It is time we had another look at its development.

Hotels charging exorbitant prices should be blacklisted. The managers should be told that they are enemies of the national economy. If the names of such hotels were published, just once or twice, these people would refrain from overcharging.

When I was a member of the Council of Europe I had occasion to stay in a second-class hotel charging exorbitant prices, a room cost £7.

The development of private house accommodation is very welcome. This will be appreciated by the family man coming over here for a holiday with his car. If they know of a private house or a farmhouse in one of our small towns they will be delighted to go there, provided it is able to cater for their needs. Not many family men can afford to bring their families and stay in expensive hotels like the Gresham. Most of the tourists coming into this country are middle and working class. They have only a certain amount of money for their holiday, and we should cater for them. We should also encourage our own people in the towns and cities to spend their holidays in the country.

Bord Fáilte are doing the best they can with the resources they have. Our hotels have improved, our guest houses have improved but we have a long way to go before we see all the improvements we would like.

Deputy T. O'Donnell spoke about the package deals and off-season tours and I think these are very necessary. I suggest we get our children, our school-teachers, our professors and everyone in the country tourist-minded because what it contributes to our balance of payments is well worth while. When I came into this house in 1944 that contribution might be put at less than £1 million; today it is almost £100 million.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 5th February, 1970.