asked the Minister for Justice if he will consider an amendment of the appropriate legislation in order to make more effective the laws governing the sale of pornographic printed matter.
106.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Pornographic Printed Matter.
105.
asked the Minister for Justice what he proposes to do concerning complaints of the display of improper literature; what steps have been taken to prevent the entry into this country of such literature; and if he proposes to introduce any legislation imposing penalties on those who illegally import such literature for display or sale; and if he will make a general statement on the matter.
107.
asked the Minister for Justice if he is aware that certain magazines of a pornographic nature, published in London and New York (titles supplied) are on general sale in certain bookshops and bookstalls in Dublin City, and if he proposes to take any action in respect of the sale of these magazines.
108.
asked the Minister for Justice if he will undertake a review of the censorship laws which would, on the one hand, allow greater freedom for the sale of works of accepted literary merit, and on the other facilitate the Garda Síochána in their efforts to prevent the sale of pornographic literature especially directed at teenagers.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Question Nos. 105 to 108 together.
I would not be prepared to make any comment on the specific publications to which Question No. 107 relates. I have not, in fact, seen these publications but, if Deputy Thornley is correct in his assessment of them as being of a pornographic nature, the question of a prosecution will not doubt arise, provided sufficient evidence of their being on sale in particular places is available. Likewise, I would recommend to Deputies that no reference should be made here to any other specific publications as such references might make subsequent action more difficult.
As regards the general position, the law provides, first of all, that the Revenue Commissioners, acting under the Customs Consolidation Act, 1876, may prevent the importation of any indecent or obscene book or other article. In addition, an officer of customs and excise has power, under the Censorship of Publications Act, 1946, to detain any book which he thinks ought to be examined by the Censorship of Publications Board. These powers operate, so to speak, at the point of importation. Secondly, the law provides that it is an offence — a common law offence — to sell or expose for sale any obscene book, print, paper, et cetera. Thirdly, there are the provisions of the Censorship of Publications Acts whereby any member of the public—including, of course, any Member of this House—may refer a book for examination by the board.
I do not, at the moment at all events, see either need for, or any advantage in new legislation. On the one hand, I do not think that it can be seriously argued, let alone established, that works of accepted literary merit are now being prohibited and I suggest that the provisions of the Act passed as recently as 1967, whereby prohibition orders have a life limited to 12 years, go as far as the Oireachtas could reasonably go to take account of changed circumstances. On the other hand, I do not see that there is any advantage in new legislation to deal with material that is in fact obscene or pornographic since the importation or sale of such material is already prohibited and no new legislation could get over the very serious problems that arise where it becomes necessary to invoke the criminal law against such material—problems of definition, problems of widely differing views as to what constitutes obscenity and so on.
I understand from the Garda Síochána that complaints made to them on this matter have been very few and that specific complaints in which specific publications were named have been fewer still. One such complaint is, however, being investigated at present. Likewise, I understand that complaints by members of the public to the Censorship Board have been very few.
It appears to me that the most useful approach, whether by Deputies or by members of the public, is that, in appropriate cases, specific complaints should be made either to the Censorship of Publications Board or to the gardaí. If the complainant is satisfied that a publication is definitely obscene or pornographic, and especially if it appears that the nature of the publication could be recognised by anybody skimming through it so that the person selling it may reasonably be assumed to know in a positive way what he is selling, the complainant might prefer to go to the Garda Síochána so that the question of a prosecution may be considered.
In other cases, a complaint to the Censorship of Publications Board would be more appropriate, though this necessarily means that the complainant must supply the book. He need not, however, use any particular form of complaint. Finally, I would like to make clear that, if a complaint is made to the gardaí, the question of a prosecution will not be decided either by the gardaí themselves or by me. It will be decided by the law officers as I do not think it would be fair either to the gardaí or the public that such decisions should be taken in any other way. For the same reason, I think it is up to the public to make specific complaints if there are grounds for doing so and that the gardaí should not be expected to take the initiative themselves except in blatant cases.
On a point of clarification, I made inquiries of the Censorship Board in regard to publications I had seen and I was told I would have to submit three consecutive copies of the publication. Is that right? Must I take three of these copies, this week's next week's and the following week's and submit them?
I take it that possibly the board would want copies, but I was not aware that they asked for three. I will inquire into the matter.
I agree with Deputy Moore's point. The Minister referred to the Customs Consolidation Acts. Could I ask the Minister if the Customs have the same powers here as they have in Britain under the 1957 Consolidation Act to seize magazines of a pornographic nature or magazines devoted to the exaltation of violence and horror specifically directed to teenagers? We often speak of pagan England but the magazines I have seen and which I have shown to members of the Garda, as the Minister is aware, are not only on free sale but are magazines of a horrific and violent nature which would be confiscated in Britain.
I have not got the wording of the 1876 Act here but I would imagine that in those days they would have been concerned with pornography and not with violence. It is possible that the recent British Act extends to cover magazines of violence. At all events, I understood the complaint of the Deputy and other Deputies was on the pornographic side.
The Minister will agree that with the growth of the paperback industry and with the increasing amount of spending money which teenagers have there is a very real problem?
I agree that if this stuff is coming in there is a problem. I have pointed out that the best way, in my view, in which the problem can be dealt with is by the co-operation of the public in the way I have suggested. Without going into the complex argument about what one person would regard as pornographic and obscene and another would not, and this is why the gardaí were concerned that this matter should be referred to the law officers, there is ample existing laws with the exception of what I said on violence. Let me say that as a common law misdemeanour this can be an indictable offence incurring trial by jury and very severe penalties.
Would the Minister not agree that there is some danger that the existence of a Censorship of Publications Act creates a situation in which the Garda—in regard to their duty to be on the alert in relation to pornographic literature or to take the initiative in the matter—may be less alert? Would the Minister not agree from his own statement that the onus lies on the public and that the Garda act only in blatant cases trends to confirm this and is there not a danger that people would be lulled into a feeling that we have an Act and that is sufficient and that, in fact, there is a problem which is growing and is claiming attention and would he not encourage the Garda to be alert, to purchase these publications and send them to the law officers? It puts some responsibility on Members of the Dáil to be buying these publications frequently for the purpose of reporting them.
The Garda do this and where they find there are blatant cases, as I deliberately stated, they would deal with them. At all events, the Deputy is well aware that in many cases people send in books complaining about them and which other people would not regard as being objectionable. This is where different judgments come in on this rather complex problem. This is why I think the Garda in blatant cases should certainly act but I think there is a duty on the public, and the machinery is there, as I pointed out, to bring matters that they think should be investigated to the notice of the board or the Garda.
The remaining questions will appear on the Order Paper for Tuesday, 10th February, 1970.