It is proposed to take business in the following order: Nos. 1 and 12, and in No. 12, Vote 41 (Supplementary) and Vote 26. There will be no time for Private Members' Business.
Order of Business.
On the Order of Business, would the Ceann Comhairle tell us when it is intended to seek the permission of the House to print and circulate the report of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges dealing with the question of the alleged breach of privilege by Deputy Dr. O'Brien?
I understand the matter has to be referred back to a meeting of the committee.
Referred back for what?
In order that the report be printed.
I understand the procedure is that the permission of the House is sought to print and circulate the proceedings?
No, not until the committee agree on the report. Then it will come before the House.
Could we get any idea as to why it is being referred back?
It is the usual procedure. It is not a case of being referred back; it will be again considered by the committee as every such case has been considered.
Are the committee not agreed on the report?
A Deputy
Who is writing the report?
If one Deputy at a time would ask a question one could reply.
I think I have a right to ask a question. I am the Deputy in question. It has been reported in newspapers in this city that I have already been censored. I have received no communication——
The Deputy may not discuss the matter at this stage. A question has been put as to when this matter will come before the House and I have replied that in ordinary circumstances it will come before the House when the committee have dealt with it. The committee have not dealt with this.
On a point of order——
Is it not true that the committee made a mess and it was made when the Chair refused to allow Deputy O'Brien to attend? Now, you are trying to mend your hand.
(Interruptions.)
May I make the point that it is a gross discourtesy on the part of this House to Deputy Dr. O'Brien that this report should be left hanging for several months while the Chief Whip of the Fianna Fáil Party made a mess of the whole affair and he is now having second thoughts and referring it all back to you?
That certainly is not so.
The matter is being dealt with in the usual way.
(Interruptions.)
I have put a question to the Chair. Is the Chair capable of answering?
I did not hear the Deputy's question.
For the fifth time in a clear voice: are the committee agreed on their report or are they not?
Yes, the committee have agreed on their decision.
The committee did not agree.
They have made a decision.
It was not an agreed report.
(Interruptions.)
Would the Ceann Comhairle agree that the committee made a decision but it was by no means a unanimous decision and that the report should now come before the House?
The report will come before the House when the committee have considered it. That is the usual way in which the committee deal with such matters.
That is not so and you know that well.
The Chair must have been at a different meeting from the one I attended, if that is your interpretation of it.
The Chair knows that the statement made by the Chair is wrong. The procedure in the past has been that when a decision is made it has been communicated to this House. On this occasion a decision was forced through notwithstanding a motion that the accused person should be heard. Now, having realised that that procedure was disgraceful, knowing that the Chair was involved, and that the status of the Chair was involved, an effort is being made to correct the position.
The matter may not be discussed here.
Mark you, it is as well to have it corrected but it is totally wrong to mislead the House into any notion that the procedure is not other than it has been in the past when a decision was made and it was communicated to the House——
(Interruptions.)
May I point out what the position is? Before the matter can come back to the House in accordance with precedent in many similar cases the committee must consider a draft report and when it has approved of a draft report the report is sent back to the House. The matter cannot come before the House until the committee approve of a draft report. That is the procedure being followed in this case just as in any other one.
(Interruptions.)
Are we going to have the report?
The report will come before the next meeting of the committee for adoption.
Who is drafting the report?
The report is being drafted by the clerk to the committee in accordance with usual procedure.
I am sorry—this cannot be correct. The Ceann Comhairle has informed the House five minutes ago that the report was agreed by the committee. If it was agreed it must have been drafted and complete and no further drafting is required. If, in fact, it has been drafted the Ceann Comhairle misinformed the House which, I presume, is improbable.
The Ceann Comhairle has not misinformed the House. The matter came before the committee and the committee by a majority vote adopted such a decision——
(Interruptions.)
The Chair says that the committee agreed to the report. If that is so how can the report be drafted by somebody two months later?
That is the procedure.
The usual procedure is that the report is drafted and then agreed. Was the report agreed, or are you withdrawing that statement?
(Interruptions.)
No, I am not.
The report was therefore, agreed. Can you explain how it is being drafted two months after it has been agreed?
The Chair may not be cross-examined by Deputy FitzGerald in this matter.
I am supporting your statement that the report was agreed. I take it you have informed the House correctly but I wish to complain about the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary that the report is now being drafted.
The Deputy is not addressing undergraduates now.
He will not have to get out through the toilet window like the Minister anyway.
(Interruptions.)
In answer to the Deputy the report comes again before the committee——
Then the Parliamentary Secretary is in error in questioning your statement that the report was agreed.
It was impossible for the committee to agree on a report at the last meeting when there was no report before them and if Deputy FitzGerald refers back to the proceeding of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges he will see that in these matters a series of meetings is normally held and that after some decision is reached, that draft report is put before the next meeting of the committee. The draft report is considered by the committee and if they pass the draft report it is then printed and sent to the House for consideration.
That cannot be correct because you, Sir, told us the report was agreed.
Would the Chair recognise one speaker?
Deputy Cluskey.
You, a Cheann Comhairle, said that it was the usual procedure and I state that it is also the usual procedure that, where a person is alleged to be in breach of procedure and privileges, he is afforded an opportunity of appearing before the committee.
That does not arise.
Not only does it arise now but it will arise again in the future.
I am not involved in this at all. I know nothing about the matter. I did not read the journal.
The affairs of this House are at a very low level indeed.
As low as they have ever sunk.
It is a serious matter for this House that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges lend themselves to this kind of situation and I suggest to the Taoiseach that he should look again at the nominees of the Fianna Fáil Party on that committee.
This committee is not my committee. It is a committee of the House on which all parties are represented. I have nothing whatever to do with the report. I know very little about the allegations made and I have little interest in the outcome.
I do not blame the Taoiseach.
Would the Taoiseach not agree that the committee are controlled by the Fianna Fáil Party?
We cannot discuss this. The matter does not arise.
Are you aware, a Cheann Comhairle, that in the following week's issue there was an article by the editor which said you were deaf in one ear and had not good hearing in the other?
That does not arise. The Deputy should control himself.
Do you intend taking any action on that?
As a matter of information, what are the terms of reference on which this report has been drawn up?
That is a matter for the committee to decide. It is not a matter for the House at this stage.
The report has been drawn up already and presumably the terms of reference have been laid down. I should like to know what they are.
The committee can discuss these when the matter comes before them and the Deputy is a member of the committee.
The report is drawn up. The terms of reference must be in existence.
When will there be a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges for the purpose of considering the report?
The report, you said, was agreed at the last meeting, Sir.
I have no objection to meeting next week if the committee wish to meet next week.
That is very nice of the Parliamentary Secretary.
Fix it for the earliest possible date——
——for the withdrawal of the charge——
——and acceptance of an apology from the Taoiseach.
Have the Labour Party the convention rigged yet?
Which one?
Do not attack the Taoiseach again.
The Minister rigged constituencies as well as conventions.
(Cavan): He very nearly did not rig South County Dublin.