Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Mar 1970

Vol. 244 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Vote 21—Garda Síochána.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Moran)

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £1,157,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment durring the year ending on 31st March, 1970, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Garda Síochána including pensions, etc., for payments of Compensation and other Expenses arising out of service in the Local Security Forces; and for payment of a Grant-in-Aid.

The money sought in this Supplementary Estimate is required chiefly to meet the cost of pay increases for the Garda Síochána.

The Garda pay increases fall into two separate parts. The first part is commonly known as the second phase of the eleventh round of wage and salary increases, which was applied throughout the public sector generally with effect from the 1st June, 1969. This settlement consisted of a 4 per cent increase on salaries up to £1,800 and 3 per cent on the portion over £1,800, with a minimum increase of 25/- a week. This was applied to the gardaí with effect from 1st June, 1969, and the cost of this increase in the present financial year is £340,000.

The second pay increase for which provision is made in the Supplementary Estimate is that recommended in the Report of the Commission on Garda Remuneration and Conditions of Service. As the House is aware, the Government have accepted in full the commission's recommendations in the matter of basis pay, both as regards the amounts and the effective date, which is 1st June, 1969. The cost in the present financial year is £620,000. Copies of the commission's report have been circulated to Deputies. The principal increases involved are £2 a week for a garda on the maximum of his scale, which is now £25 7s 3d per week together with a further £1 a week on completion of 15 years service in the rank of garda, and £4 a week for sergeants at the maximum of scale, which now becomed £29 16s 6d. There are corresponding increases for other ranks.

An additional sum of £115,000 is required for subhead B of the Vote to cover increased subsistence and travelling expenses incurred mainly in connection with protection duties, particularly in border areas. In addition, the rates of subsistence allowance were increased since the original estimate was framed.

The extra £42,000 required for subhead G, the transport subhead, arises mainly from the purchase of additional cars and motor-cycles costing £29,000, which were required during the year to improve the mobility of the force. As well, a number of cars and motor-cycles, which were due to be supplied in 1968-69, were not delivered in that year so that the cost now falls to be paid in the current year.

Finally, a sum of £90,000 is required to make good a deficiency in the payment from the Road Fund to subhead J, which is the Appropriations-in-Aid subhead. This contribution from the Road Fund falls to be determined by the Minister for Local Government with the consent of the Minister for Finance, and the original provision of £645,000 was inserted in the Estimate, and the Book of Estimates published, before the final determination was made last year. In the event, the amount which became payable was £90,000 short of the original provision, and this must now be provided.

The gross amount required under the above headings is £1,207,000, but this amount is reduced by an expected saving of £50,000 in expenditure on pensions and gratuities, leaving the net amount required at £1,157,000.

Mr. Cosgrave

This Supplementary Estimate, as the Minister mentioned, is in the main for the purpose of implementing the recommendations in the report of the Commission on Garda Remuneration and Conditions of Service, known as the Conroy Commission. The commission's report was welcomed as an effort to meet the needs of the Garda Síochána and the commission carried out an important work in examining a number of matters some of which will, no doubt, be more appropriate for consideration on the main Estimate. This Supplementary Estimate, however, does afford an opportunity of making reference, at the present time, to the high standard of the Garda Síochána and to reiterate what the vast majority of the people feel and recognise, that the Garda force is an excellent body of men who deserve well of this country. I have recently spoken on this matter and I want to re-emphasise some of the points I made on that occasion.

There is a tendency in some quarters —even, possibly, by some Members of of the House; certainly by certain sections outside the House—to suggest that the gardaí or some of them in carrying out their duties exceed the limits which they should observe in quelling disturbances or preventing demonstrations getting out of hand and being used as an occasion to exploit grievances by people who have on occasion attached themselves to genuine groups who may be making a peaceful protest about a particular matter. I want to restate some of the points I made in this connection so that it can be clearly seen that in a democratic society people are entitled to demonstrate peacefully or to protest. But what is intolerable and cannot be accepted is that small groups can arrogate to themselves the right to demonstrate or to protest or to exploit a grievance for the purpose of enforcing their views on other sections of the community or the community at large. The gardaí have, in my view, on every occasion, with microscopic exceptions, discharged their functions and duties in a manner that is typical of the high standard of the force and in a manner which reflects the very highest credit on the members of the force. If people want to change the laws or to have changes made in policy this is the place to effect such changes and is the only way it can be done in accordance with our democratic system.

There have been attempts made to destroy property and to intimidate people who have settled in this country and purchased property here. That cannot be condoned and is contrary to the system of laws we have adopted. This is not a very widespread campaign but for some people and their families it has been the source of great disturbance and hardship. The more widespread attempts that have been made to use intimidation or force, either for criminal purposes or for the purpose of advancing particular lines of action by self-appointed groups, have on occasion reached proportions that impose an obligation on public representatives to speak out in condemnation of such action and to make it clear that so far as the overwhelming majority of the elected representatives are concerned they reject that approach as an intolerable invasion of the rights of the people and an unauthorised usurpation of the democratic authority vested in this Parliament.

Therefore, it is important that a vigorous public opinion, reflecting all sections of the Community, should assert itself in defence of our basic rights and institutions and in support of the dedicated men of the Garda and the Army who have fearlessly and consistently defended those rights. There has been some misapprehension on this point, and I would ask the Minister to refer in his reply to the recent growth in the number of armed raids on banks and other bodies which have occurred not merely in this city but in many remote areas. So far as the city and urban areas are concerned there is a need for larger numbers of gardaí.

I note in the Supplementary Estimate that there is an additional sum of £42,000 required under subhead G for the purchase of vehicles. It is absolutely essential in a modern society to have mobile patrols, both on cars and motor cycles, to deal with crime. It is also essential that the public should not only co-operate fully with the gardaí in securing wherever possible the property of individuals or firms but should also co-operate and assist them in the prevention and detection of crime.

In this country for historical reasons the duties which the police force have had to perform were often regarded —and rightly so—as being performed by an alien force. That situation was changed with the establishment of the State but tradition in some cases and with some people dies hard. It is vital that we give the fullest co-operation and assistance to the gardaí in the prevention and detection of crime and co-operate with them, through the crime detection section, to ensure that culprits are brought to justice. In the built-up areas, particularly in the city of Dublin, but also in my own constituency of Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown, there is some concern regarding the reductions in the number of gardaí. In many of those areas the population has increased but frequently the strength of the gardaí has remained the same as it was when those areas were villages. I would urge the Minister, the commissioner and the Garda authorities to ensure that sufficient gardaí are provided in Dublin and in the populous areas and that they are adequately equipped to deal with crime.

It is a matter for concern—which has been expressed in this House— that, apart from raids that have taken place recently, the number of crimes involving physical violence, attacks with knives and so on, is such that in parts of this city people are genuinely afraid. Old people and people living alone and those who, for one reason or another, are obliged to go out at night and to travel at night are apprehensive because of some cases that have occurred. I think it is right that this House should, on every occassion that offers, re-assert the conviction that the vast majority of the people are opposed to criminal activities and to the unsurpation by any group of the authority that can vest only in the elected representatives of the people. While every citizen or group of citizens has the right to demonstrate peacefully to promote his or their political views it, a peaceful and democratic fashion, no citizen or group of citizens has the right to impose views upon his or their fellow-citizens. It is essential that public opinion must express it self unequivocally against those who seek to deprive all our citizens of their rights, or any of them, and public opinion must at all times support whatever measures are necessary to prevent attacks on the very foundations of our society.

In peacetime the burden of meeting such attacks devolves in the main on the gardaí and the gardaí themselves must be adequately protected and safeguarded and, from that point of view, they are entitled to the co-operation and support of the public whom they serve so well. Public and private property is entitled to respect and protection and unauthorised or illegal attacks upon persons or property must be condemned. Indeed, there is an obligation on all who value freedom to resist all such attacks. It is important that the gardaí should not only have overwhelming support but that the support should be expressed in a tangible fashion and I have always held the view that public servants, be they gardaí, army, civil servants or others, are entitled to the best pay and conditions the country can afford.

The Conroy Commission inquired into the conditions of the gardaí and that commissions has made many recommendations. The principal recommendation is made retrospective to last June in respect of pay and salary. It is only right that this should be implemented forthwith and I trust that the other recommendations will in due course be implemented also. We support this Supplementary Estimate. The gardaí deserve well of the country. We cannot expect a contented force if their standards are in any way adversely affected, as they must be, by the continued rise in the cost of living.

Once again, I want to avail of this opportunity to restate our view that so far as crime and the stamping out or detection of crime are concerned we are wholeheartedly behind any measures designed to remedy the situtation. The growth in crime is a blot on our society. It is causing serious concern to many people. The time to deal with the problem is before it gets any worse. It can be dealt with only by enforcing the law and making sure that those responsible for enforcing the law have the equipment and the means to do so at their disposal.

Mr. Pattison

I echo Deputy Cosgrave's sentiments. My party will support the Minister in whatever measures he devises to combat the increasing rise in crime, particularly crimes of violance. When we discussed the main Estimate here a few months back I spoke at length about the necessity for improving Garda pay and conditions and the importance of having a contented Garda force. At the time of that debate we were awaiting the findings of the Conroy Commission. These findings have since been made public and this Supplementary Estimate is designed to give effect to the recommendation in relation to pay and salary adjustments. While the Minister did say that the Government had accepted the Commission's recommendations in full, he did not give any indications as to when the other recommendations will be put into operation. We would also like to hear from the Minister more about the acceptance of the recommendations by the Garda. The manner in which the report was published may be described as unfortunate because of the anxiety and dissatisfaction to which initiarlly it gave rise. That again highlighted the complete lack of communication which has existed between employer and employee in matters of wages and working conditions in the Garda Síochána. The method of its publications and its communication to the rank and file of the Garda Síochána was just a continuation of the unfortunate conditions which have existed for a long period.

It is generally felt that the number of gardaí is not adequate having regard to the expansion, multiplicity and diversity of their duties at present and particularly the amount of time which members of the force must spend dealing with traffic problems, particularly in towns and cities outside of Dublin. The appointment of traffic wardens in Dublin has made gardaí available for other duties but unfortunately elsewhere in towns and cities the work of the gardaí is to a great extent taken up with traffic problems. I should like to emphasise again that it is necessary to have a contented police force. It is necessary for the wellbeing of the community. Everyone knows that the best worker is a contented worker. It is absolutely essential that the lines of communication—industrial communication, if you like—between members of the Garda and their superiors and the Department should be kept very clear at all times. Following on the commission's report there should be a much greater degree of industrial democracy within the force so that younger members particularly will not feel frustrated.

When speaking on the main Estimate I dealt with the necessary for providing additional vehicles, particularly cars, and also the necessary for changing them more often. Because of the nature of the work for which they are used these vehicles deteriorate much more rapidly than would a vehicle used for civilian purposes. By and large, with some exceptions in Dublin, the cars used by the Garda are family type cars made to serve the family man or the business man. This is a matter which should be looked into. Most of the cars used by the Garda in Dublin have been specially constructed. There are many other items affecting the recommendations of the commission but I understand that this Supplementary Estimate applies only to the salary adjustment aspects of that report. I would welcome an opportunity to have a full debate on all aspects of that report.

Mr. Meaney

The Minister in introducing this Supplementary Estimates made it clear that the money sought was chiefly to meet pay increases in the Garda Síochána. It is vital in a democratic state such as ours to have a good police force because it is to them that we often turn to preserve our democratic system. It is vital that the force should attract some of the best brains available and that we should get the best type of young man to join the force. This Supplementary Estimate covers the eleventh round salary increases and the implementation of certain sections of the Conroy Report.

The force, as we know, is a well-disciplined force and it is the duty of each Member of the House to support them when we can.

I should like to join with other speakers in drawing attention to the fact that the public should help the gardaí more. Often we read of cases where a garda tried to apprehend somebody, for instance, a burglar, and the public just stood idly by and did not go to his assistance. In this House we should set a good example and show the country that we are behind this well-disciplined force. It is sad to say that now and again we may have a case here where certain matters are brought up and an effort made to elicit information where it is alleged some garda misbehaved himself. There is always the danger when such a case is mentioned that the whole force would fall into disrepute. There is no sense in asking those questions in this House because the allegations are always unfounded. I should like to compliment the Minister on the manner in which he is standing up for the force. There are a lot of people who have a different view and are anxious to discredit the force at all times.

I notice in the Supplementary Estimate a sum of £115,000 for increased subsistence and travelling allowances incurred mainly in doing protection duty particularly in border areas. It is something new that we should have to make so much money available for this purpose. It is something that arose within the last 12 months and we are all sorry to say it is likely to remain for some time. I am sure the Minister has his eye on the matter but I should like to say to him that while at one time this may have seemed a temporary duty for guards that duty may continue for longer than was expected. These men may be there for some time on a semi-permanent basis. It is sad to have to say this but it is the truth. I see also that a sum is required for the purchase of cars, motor cycles and so on. That is very welcome because it is very necessary, in these days when you have bank robberies and so on and when the whole idea is to make a quick getaway, that we should have high-powered vehicles for the Garda and that they should be driven by competent drivers.

I understand that the whole force is being reorganised in that direction. This is only right because it is essential that our police force should advance as quickly as crime is advancing and, indeed, keep ahead of it in order to protect our citizens. There is not much more I wish to say on this Supplementary Estimate as we had the debate on the main Estimate not long ago.

As I said at the outset, it is the duty of Members of the House to set a good example and to ask the public to be more co-operative and to help the Garda in their duties. No longer can the public stand idly by and see gardaí being attacked. The example in this should come from here and I am glad to see all Deputies are in agreement on it.

It is necessary for the force not only to have good public relations but to ensure that there is an excellent understanding between them and the public. If they have better public relations the people will understand their problems and will be more helpful, particularly in rural areas. Anything young gardaí and older officers have got by way of increases in wages have been well deserved. If we are to continue to get the proper type of recruits one must continue in this way.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

The Estimate provides for increased rates of pay for the Garda Síochána and undoubtedly it will be welcomed by all sides of the House. I do not think there is any section of our community so deserving of our sincere expression of appreciation for their display of loyalty to their calling. We all appreciate that the force is young, having been in existence only since the establishment of the State, and that they bear the very fine traditions of their founders in the matter of devotion to duty.

It is true to say that changing times have ment that circumstances are very different from what they were when the force was founded. Our people have come to know and to respect the rule of law but in the early days the Garda Síochána had an extremely difficult job endeavouring to establish law and order. In this Estimate we are providing for improved rates of pay for them.

I strongly urge on the officers of the Department the necessity to include an appreciation of the work done by the Garda in civics education. Teachers should spend some time in our schools, primary, secondary and vocational, lecturing on good citizenship and ensuring that children learn that the Garda Síochána are there to protect life and property, that they are the friends of the people, that they are the guarantors of liberty and freedom. Too often do we hear of children being told, for one reason or another, to run away at the approach of a garda. It is wrong that any citizen should be brought up in this way.

The majority of people in the country realise that we, though a small and a new country, have what we can describe as the best, the most efficient police force in the world. The last speaker correctly suggested that not always do our people appreciate that. Far too often have we seen the gardaí suffer at the hands of vandals and others. This, of course, is happening in every country, but we must realise that these opponents of law and order must be kept in their place and we must ensure that in the process gardaí do not fall victims to these mobs. It is a sad commentary on the citizenship of our people that occasionally they do not come to the assistance of the garda in such circumstances. Even the weakest person physically can go to the nearest telephone and call for help if that person is afraid, because of his physique, to participate in a mêlée.

The gardaí carry out their duties in a highly efficient manner and the money being voted in this Estimate is being wisely spent. The better we pay the gardaí the more independent we make them. Our police force have a serious obligation on their shoulders in the administration of the law fairly and impartially. This applies to the most humble garda in the country. To be free from worry one must be free from want and one must not be under a compliment to any person in his district or sub-district. The garda must be able to live independently and he and his family must have a high national standard of living.

Difficult circumstances make temptation possible. Our Garda force have an excellent record of integrity and it should be the aim of Parliament to preserve that record. It is as important to keep the Garda Síochána independent as it is to keep a district justice independent: I do not suggest the garda should have the same remuneration as the district justice. They must be paid a wage which will leave them independent and above temptation. I am glad an effort is being made to improve the conditions of the members of the Garda Síochána. Many more steps require to be taken. In addition to improving the pay and conditions of members of the force the Minister should endeavour to introduce a comprehensive scheme for the widows of men who were members of the Garda.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Whenever I make a speech on behalf of the Garda Síochána I always refer to the widows of members of the force. I think they have been forgotten and somebody must speak for them.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise now. The Deputy will have an opportunity on another occasion.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

The Minister, at another time and another day, must deal with the widows of members of the Garda Síochána. I wish to compliment the members of the force on their displays of bravery which we read about from time to time. It reflects credit not only on the members concerned but on the force in general, particularly in cases of armed robbery.

Does the Minister consider the strength of the Garda Síochána adequate for present requirements? Would it have been possible for him to seek a larger sum on this occasion and to increase the numbers in the force? It is deplorable that country stations seem to be understaffed. Patrol cars and the cycle squad of the Garda Síochána seem to be replacing the permanent Garda stations.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on this Supplementary Estimate which deals with salary increases.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Surely it would be possible to employ more gardaí in rural districts? This Supplementary Estimate also covers the various grades in the Garda Síochána. I assume I am not entitled to dwell on the subject of promotions within the force now but I might mention that members of the force in general may not be completely satisfied with the system. On another occasion that matter of promotions may perhaps be dealt with more fully.

An Ceann Comhairle

It would be a matter for the main Estimate.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I am glad to note that provision is made for additional motor cycles and for additional new cars. We are living in an age of speed. We are experiencing quite a number of robberies in banks, supermarkets and warehouses. It is very important for the Garda Síochána to have a fast transport service at their disposal. I have often wondered why the word "Garda" is prominently displayed on the squad cars—as we call them in the country. The sign at least lets the general public know that the Garda are coming or going, as the case may be, but it also indicates to those engaging in any kind of crime that the Garda are coming and it may give them the opportunity of making a quick getaway. On the other hand, the sign might serve a very useful purpose when the Garda are rushing to an accident or responding to a call where their services are urgently required. I do not have any strong views about the displaying of the "Garda" sign; I suppose it must be justified.

Dr. O'Donovan

I think it makes Deputies slow down on occasions.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I have often wondered if there is any provision for danger money for the Garda Síochána.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Is there any harm in advocating that we might include a sum for danger money?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has now advocated and he should come back to the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

The point I am trying to make is that the Garda are very often involved in risky and dangerous duties, including dealing with explosives.

I want to express gratitude and praise for what I consider to be the very high standard of our Garda force, especially the high standard amongst the young members of the force who, I am glad to say, have followed the example given by the old-timers. I only hope that the high standard which has been set by example will be maintained. The Garda are a group of young men who have displayed outstanding qualities in the discharge of their duties. Any efforts to improve their conditions and rates of pay will most gladly be supported by this House, because in these young men reposes the responsibility for the safeguarding of life and property.

I do not like to think what kind of a country we would have if we had no Garda Síochána. Thank God, we have such a force. They discharge their duties without fear or favour. It behoves all of us to keep this force contented. I am glad that the Garda Representative Body have ironed out many problems but some still remain. I am convinced that, with co-operation between the Representative Body, the commissioners and the Minister for Justice, these problems can be solved and we will have the type of force the country desires.

Dr. O'Donovan

I feel compelled to say a few words on the Supplementary Estimate because of a remark made by the Minister yesterday. Like Deputy Flanagan, I have found the members of the force extremely courteous, even when they have felt they had a genuine grievance. I do not think any sensible person would feel that they were other than extremely reasonable in the way they acted in relation to their case.

I am glad the Government have brought in this Supplementary Estimate. I suppose it is fair and reasonable in the circumstances in which the Government find themselves. A few years ago the force was losing enormous numbers of men shortly after they were trained because they were emigrating to countries like Australia where they could get better pay. The men who have committed themselves to the force for a period of ten or 15 years and have made family arrangements do not want to emigrate and they have had, therefore, at times, to put up with unfair conditions.

As we know, the Garda are by no means unanimous in their acceptance of the Conroy Report. At the same time, the Government, having appointed the commission, acted perfectly correctly in accepting its recommendations. To that extent this Supplementary Estimate is also most welcome. Suggestions have been made on occasions about the Garda Síochána with which I do not agree. Our police force behave in relation to ordinary citizens with exemplary courtesy and any person guilty of a peccadillo will not find himself in difficulties with the Garda Síochána.

My next point almost drifts into the main Estimate, and I do not want to do that; I want to confine myself to what is in the Supplementary Estimate, which is the improvement of rates of pay for the Garda Síochána. The first part of it, that is the 4 per cent on the salaries with a minimum increase of 25/- a week, is about the only part that is good. This eleventh round did not meet the increase in the cost of living at all, apart from the fact that anybody with more than £1,800 a year pays at least one-fourth of it back to the Government. It is very useful for the Minister for Finance, but not very much use to anybody else. Therefore, what is valuable about this Supplementary Estimate is not that part of it concerning the eleventh round increase, which would be quite inadequate to meet the increase in the cost of living, but the second part of it which relates to the implementation of the recommendations of the Conroy Commission. The Minister is to be congratulated on this Estimate. The figures it contains, on the basis of the present value of money, is about the minimum any person would support. I hope from now on that, when the cost of living goes up, members of the Garda Síochána will be fully compensated for the increase in the cost of living and not permitted to fall behind to the extent they were in the past when many members left the force.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Moran)

I want to thank Deputies on all sides of the House for the tributes they have paid to the Garda Síochána force as a whole. This tribute is due in our circumstances to our Garda force. The very fact that from every side of this House we have this unanimity of view about the integrity of our Garda force, the way the Garda behave themselves towards all citizens and keep the scales of justice evenly balanced between man and man, is significant. It is certainly the answer to those who would try to denigrate our force and try to present a picture of our force which we all know is untrue. Whatever about your generosity, Sir, to some of the Deputies who spoke, I want to keep strictly within the terms of Standing Order No. 126 and to confine my remarks to the matters contained in this Supplementary Estimate.

The main matter to be dealt with here is the provision implementing the recommendation of the Conroy Commission. Although I have already done this privately, I think I should publicly pay a tribute to Judge Conroy and the members of this commission for the excellent and meticulous job they did. First, I think I should place on record —I am sure this is accepted by the House; it is certainly accepted by the force and everybody outside—that this was a completely independent commission, completely independent of the Government and completely independent of my Department. It was deliberately so constructed when it was set up. There had been for many long years demands by the Representative Body of the Garda and the Garda force as a whole for some form of commission to inquire into their circumstances. This commission under Judge Conroy got the rather unenviable and difficult task of making an examination in depth of every aspect of the garda's life and duty, every aspect of his work. This was the first examination in depth of the Garda Síochána which was attempted since its foundation.

The commission's report is a very comprehensive document, as Deputies who have read it are aware. The original ran to about 250 pages with about 1,300 paragraphs dealing with every aspect of the garda's life and work from his training to the day he retires. The end result here today is the recommendation which is being implemented by the House in this Supplementary Estimate: that the young garda, the rookie as he is called, now earns during training £15 7s 6d. He completes the initial training after approximately five months and he goes up to £17 10s 6d. Then he goes ahead by nine yearly increments until he reaches his maximum of £25 7s 3d, which is now the basic weekly rate, in addition to which a further increment of £1 a week is paid after 15 years service. The sergeant starts at £27 10s 0d and by three increments reaches a maximum of £29 16s. 6d. Those were recommendations of the Conroy Commission, with corresponding increases for the other ranks.

I want to turn for a moment to some criticism which was implied by Deputy Pattison concerning the way this commission's report was dealt with. It would be wise to remind the House of the facts in this connection. I have referred to the size of this report. I got it on approximately 20th January and it was just a typed copy. We had to try to reproduce as quickly as possible about 600 stencilled copies of this report, first for the Garda themselves and then for the Government to look at it. Copies were distributed to all concerned within five days. This report must have created a record, so far as the implementation of parts of it is concerned, in the whole history of commissions or reports since the foundation of the State.

Again, I should like to point out that immediately that report was stencilled, so that the Government and those concerned could study it, a statement was issued on the 27th January—within a week of this report being presented—which said:

The Government wish to emphasise that their objective in setting up the Commission was to effect a fundamental review of the pay and conditions of the Garda Síochána by reference to modern conditions and circumstances. The report is the first independent, comprehensive review of the Force's conditions since it was founded. It has major financial and other implications and it would be unrealistic to expect immediate decisions on the very many matters covered. The Government are giving urgent and sympathetic consideration to the recommendations with a view to the early implementation of those which they find acceptable and feasible.

That was on the 27th January. On the 3rd February, within another few days of this statement, a statement was issued by me which said:

The Government have today decided to implement the recommendations of the Commission in relation to the basic pay of all ranks of the Force with effect from the 1st June, 1969.

It then went on to say:

The Government, at the request of the Garda Síochána Joint Representative Body, have also decided to set up the Consultative Council recommended by the Commission.

Surely this implementation, almost as quickly as they could be looked at, of two of the major recommendations in the report is a record? I think Deputy Pattison was quoting somebody who said communications in connection with this report were badly handled.

The scribe who wrote that the Government should have set out, side by side with all these hundreds of recommendations of this report, Government decisions on them should be in Grangegorman. It was the most irresponsible comment I have ever heard or read about any report issued by anybody. I am asking the House for over £1 million. I do not know how anyone who has gone to the trouble of reading all the different recommendations in this report could suggest that within 14 days one could have a Government decision side by side each of the recommendations. I do not know where these fellows come from, how they think, or whether they have heads on them for the sole purpose of keeping their lugs apart. It was an utterly irresponsible comment.

I may also mention that on the 10th February I set up the Garda Síochána Consultative Council in accordance with the recommendations of the commission. It is part of the job of this council to discuss together aspects of the report for the purpose of the speedy examination of certain matters referred to in it. The Consultative Council is chaired by the Assistant Commissioner James McDonagh and the other members are Garda John Marrinan, Sergeant Thomas O'Reilly, Chief Superintendent Patrick McLoughlin and two civil servants, John Griffin and P. Mac Guill. The force and those who run it are in the majority on this Consultative Council. The commission think by having this council communications will be vastly improved and misunderstandings will be avoided as between the force and those whose duty it is to look after them.

There are other aspects of this report which are urgent. The question of overtime is under examination and will be dealt with as quickly as possible. There are a vast number of recommendations here. Some of them are very far-reaching. They need very considerable examination and certainly their implementation will cost considerable amounts of money. From time to time I will be coming before the House—and particularly with my next Estimate—dealing with some of these matters when they are fully examined. The commission has recommended the setting up of a planning and research unit which will have the function of examining different practices in the force. We have examined major recommendations in so far as pay and other matters in this Estimate are concerned. I assume by the end of the month the Garda will have got this money, which is retrospective to June last, just as is the other increase which they got. This must be a record in so far as the recommendation has been accepted and also a record in the time in which it is being implemented.

Any misunderstanding there was about the Conroy Commission Report in the first few days was due in the main to people with rumours. The report was not actually available in sufficient quantity because it was not printed. People, including some young gardaí, were told different stories. Rumours, as the Deputies know, are very dangerous and some people did not know accurately what was in the report at all. They were taking different versions which were being conveyed to them. I am glad to say that, so far as I can ascertain, the Representative Body of the Garda have accepted this report. They accept that it is being implemented as far as we can examine it. Every aspect of this report, immediately the necessary examinations are made by the Government, will be dealt with as quickly as we can possibly get round to it. There is much spadework to be done.

I want to endorse everything that Deputy Cosgrave has said about the unauthorised usurpation of people's rights. I appreciate the apprehension that is being caused in the mind of the public about the recent bank raids. Some of these very serious crimes against property are carried out by organised criminals. It is very necessary that public opinion should be firmly behind the law enforcement authorities in dealing with miscreants. In so far as public opinion has been moulded by expressions of view in this House, I am grateful to all the Deputies who have spoken. I am grateful for the solidarity with which they have expressed their views on this particular issue. The fact of the matter is that people representing nobody and afraid to come out and ask for public suffrage are prepared to come out in the dead of the night and terrorise their neighbours at the point of a gun. Such people are prepared to throw petrol bombs at public property and let the public pay for the damage.

I referred to how Garda time is being wasted by many of these irresponsible people. The best protection we can have against that is informed public opinion. The more our people realise the utter irresponsibility displayed by some of these criminal elements—and that is the only way to describe them— the sooner our people realise the price the taxpayer is paying to try to control these people, who are comparatively very small in numbers but who are a very expensive item on our national bill, the better for the peace of our community. As has been said by some Deputies here, the co-operation of our people to put these people behind bars is what is urgently required at this time in our country. If the Garda get the full co-operation of our people, which they should get because they are public servants, the sooner these miscreants will be behind bars and the sooner the terror of some people living in isolated areas will be ended.

So far as the other aspect of this Supplementary Estimate is concerned, that is, the portion of it dealing with transport, I am very glad to say that Garda communications have been vastly improved and at this time are being vastly improved. Some of the most modern equipment has been acquired for them or is, at this time, being acquired for them. It is my hope that before very long, with radio communications and the modernisation of the communications generally throughout the force, this will give the Garda force teeth they did not have up to this time. To deal with the widespread hit and run type of organised crime we now have, this is essential. Some of these criminals are equipped with and have experience of the use of walkie-talkie equipment. They have very modern equipment, too.

In these circumstances it is now vital that our force should be fully equipped with the most modern equipment available. I am glad to tell the House that that is being done. When the present reorganisation of the force has been completed, with radio equipment, with cars, with fully equipped motor cycles, I believe we will have a force with teeth that will make impossible some of these rather frightening organised crimes that are going on at present.

I do not think there is any other matter that arises under this Supplementary Estimate to which I need to refer. It is quite clear that Deputies on all sides of the House are prepared to advise the public to co-operate with the Garda to the fullest possible extent in putting down the latest organised crime wave. I believe that being the situation inside here, in a short time it will be generally accepted by the public outside too. The public are becoming more and more educated about some of the thugs and layabouts who are wasting the time of the Garda and costing the taxpayers a lot of money. The public are getting wise to the carry-on we have had here. As some Deputies have said, the best way to kill this is by the weight of public opinion. The way this Estimate has been received by the House is an indication that the House is playing its own part in moulding public opinion.

I know I am speaking for all sides of the House when I say that it has been a pleasure for Members of the House and for me as Minister for Justice to implement this vital part of the Conroy Committee recommendation and that it is the wish of the House that in so far as our national resources can afford it we will ensure that our Garda force are reasonably remunerated for the job that is certainly being very well done. They will continue to command the respect of this House and indeed of the public at large for their integrity and their impartiality in respect of which tributes have been paid by all Deputies who have spoken tonight on this Supplementary Estimate.

Vote put and agreed to.

Votes reported and agreed to.