asked the Minister for Local Government if he is aware that according to the February 1970 edition of the OECD Observer Ireland has the lowest number of dwellings completed per 1,000 inhabitants of all member countries quoted for 1968; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Housing Statistics.
14.
I have seen the report referred to by the Deputy. I dealt with this subject in some detail in appendix V of the White Paper—Housing in the Seventies—which I issued last June and also in my reply on 11th March, 1970, to the debate on the Estimates for my Department at columns 217 to 219 of the Official Report, volume 245, No. 2.
Briefly, I may say that houses are built to meet needs arising from the formation of new households and other demographic factors. In this country both the increase in population and the percentage of the population who are married are low by the standards of other countries. Further, the average number of persons per room is fairly low by international standards.
Houses are also built to replace dwellings which are demolished or have become obsolete. In this country, a large proportion—about 24 per cent —of the housing stock has been reconstructed with the aid of the scheme of reconstruction grants which has been in operation more or less in its present form since about 1932, or longer, so far as can be ascertained, than any similar scheme elsewhere. These grants, of which about 10,000 are now paid annually, have slowed the rate of obsolescence of the housing stock as a whole and ensured a degree of adaptation to current needs higher than would have been the case without them.
The comparisons as between countries of numbers of houses built per 1,000 can also be misleading because of the different sizes of the dwellings. According to the Annual Bulletin of Europe, 1968, houses in this country were the largest in any country, except Iceland, for which the statistics are given.
Does the Minister not agree that the whole tenor of his speech was to the effect that we are doing marvellous work and now this question asked by Deputy Collins has indicated that an independent body, namely OECD, have proved us to be the worst housing administration in Europe?
I do not know about the tenor of my speech, but I think I did show that the housing effort being made at present is the greatest effort made yet in this country and that it compares favourably with the effort by any other country. As I have shown, the figures can only be properly interpreted if one bears in mind all the relevant considerations such as the number of houses that are reconstructed, which, as I said, slows down the rate of obsolescence, and also if one bears in mind the fact that the number of persons per room in this country is fairly low compared with most other European countries.
The Minister stated that the number of people living per room is lower than in other countries in Europe. He must know that with the overcrowding at present this is completely wrong. Is the Minister trying to state that the figures recently presented are inaccurate and irrelevant when applied to Ireland?
They are only intelligible if all the relevant factors are taken into consideration and that is precisely what Deputies opposite do not do. Neither Deputy O'Connell nor Deputy FitzGerald knows how to interpret these figures.
Would the Minister confirm that the Government's own under-estimated figure for the backlog of housing is 59,500 and, having regard to that fact, what relevance have his remarks? The size of rooms and all the drivel he has talked mean very little in the light of this backlog, which is increasing every year.
As I indicated in my opening and concluding speeches on the Estimate, the Government realise there is still a considerable effort needed in regard to housing and that effort will continue to be made by this Government which will take care to ensure that the economy of the country remains capable of financing a considerable housing programme. This is unlike the situation that occurred whenever the parties opposite managed to get their hands on the finances of the State.
The point is, as shown in this table, that the effort in Ireland is less than anywhere else. In the face of these figures, I do not know how the Minister has the nerve to come into the House and tell us that the effort here compares favourably with that of other countries.
Because the figures show that it does when the figures are properly interpreted.
The Minister's own figures show there is a backlog of 59,500 houses.
The Deputy does not understand that you cannot reasonably compare a two-roomed house with a five-roomed house. They are completely different things.
Nobody has discussed that. What we are speaking about is the backlog that exists.
Deputy FitzGerald does not consider all these factors because he does not understand what housing is about.
Everybody on the continent lives in chalets?
Deputy FitzGerald only understands figures—little black digits—but houses are structures and there is a distinct difference between a five-roomed and a two-roomed house. Perhaps Deputy FitzGerald would get some commonsense Member of his own party to give him a short course on the practical provision of housing.
Stop talking nonsense.
Deputy Enright did not even contribute to the debate. He pretended to want to but, although it went on for one month, Deputy Enright did not contribute.
(Interruptions.)
Order. I am calling Question No. 15.
Perhaps one of Deputy FitzGerald's own students might be able to tell him how to interpret these figures. All I can say is that it is a terrible reflection on higher education to say that Deputy Dr. FitzGerald is actually paid money to teach students this ridiculously inadequate way of dealing with statistics.
That is personal abuse.
(Interruptions.)
Order. I am calling Question No. 15.